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Model Forum / Radio Controlled / Air Models / November 2003AMA club-RIP
The local AMA club just decided to not be a chartered AMA club next year. The $90 AMA wants for a club charter was too much for the 6 club members. The AMA was contacted about a lower cost for clubs with fewer members. All pleas fell on deaf and unsympathetic ears. Whether a club is 6 members or 60 or 600, the fee is $90 they were told. The club will retain their field and rely on each member's homeowner's policy for insurance. >The local AMA club just decided to not be a chartered AMA club next year. >The $90 AMA wants for a club charter was too much for the 6 club members. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >The club will retain their field and rely on each member's homeowner's >policy for insurance. Your individual AMA member insurance will cover your personal liability when you fly. The AMA charter covers the land owner. You don't have to quit the AMA as an individual because of no club charter. Dan Thompson (AMA 32873, EAA 60974, WB4GUK, GROL) remove POST in address for email >The local AMA club just decided to not be a chartered AMA club next year. >The $90 AMA wants for a club charter was too much for the 6 club members. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >The club will retain their field and rely on each member's homeowner's >policy for insurance. As was pointed out, your individual memberships will suffice for most purposes, and since the charter has been dropped you won't need to worry about event insurance. You might visit http://www.unitedmodelers.com/ Individual memberships are $45, and if five of you join you can charter the club for $40. Maybe worth looking at. Hmmm...Kevie, here Kevie, where are you? You're being paged. Herb Winston AMA 50438 > >The local AMA club just decided to not be a chartered AMA club next year. > >The $90 AMA wants for a club charter was too much for the 6 club members. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Maybe worth looking at. Ok Let's Do the Math $90/6=$15 a year per member $15/12=$1.25 a month per member So let's put all the "it is too expensive for six guys" BS to the side and tell us what the real complaint is. Because if six guys can not afford an extra $1.25 a month or one payment a year of $15 then they should not be in this hobby in the first place. Most people blow more than that on a day at the field or going to a movie. I would hardly consider AMA a villan for refusing to lower their rates. Bob Ruth AMA 720565 >The local AMA club just decided to not be a chartered AMA club next year. >The $90 AMA wants for a club charter was too much for the 6 club members. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >The club will retain their field and rely on each member's homeowner's >policy for insurance. Bob, My thoughts exactly. Why is it that our hobby attracts more than its fair share of skinflints on the planet? Joe L. >Subject: Re: AMA club-RIP >From: bobandvickey@aol.com (BobAndVickey) [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >Bob Ruth >AMA 720565 >>The local AMA club just decided to not be a chartered AMA club next year. >>The $90 AMA wants for a club charter was too much for the 6 club members. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >>The club will retain their field and rely on each member's homeowner's >>policy for insurance. > ...Why is it that our hobby attracts more than its fair >share of skinflints on the planet? Why is it that so many times these are the same folks who think nothing of dropping two or three grand on a new giant scale setup? Texas Pete AMA 59376 > Why is it that our hobby attracts more than its fairshare of skinflints on the > planet? How about this for an explanation? Modeler's, gotta love'em! by Dick Burkhalter As to the cheapness of R/C flyer's in comparison to golfers, fishermen and others who engage in expensive hobbies, I have some rather interesting psychological theories about that... Golf, fishing, owning and racing horses or cars, hunting or skeet shooting and a number of other expensive hobbies have always been regarded as adult hobbies to which kids might aspire. The general attitude regarding spending money on those hobbies is that of "I've earned it as a part of the growing up and becoming a man process, therefore I deserve to spend whatever I want on this hobby, which by the way I use to further my business "Contacts". On the other hand, building and flying model airplanes has traditionally been looked at as a juvenile hobby, which we're supposed to outgrow when we become men. The only men for whom model building and flying is considered a valid pastime are those who are somehow connected with doing it for business reasons. Hobby shop owners, model distributors, professional R/C competitors, special effects flyers for the movie or TV industry. Those guys are excused from criticism because, after all, they're making money at it and supplying all those toys we buy for our kids at Christmas. You may notice that even when there's a story in the popular press about some famous person who happens to be a modeler, it's almost always "and he used to build models as a kid," not "he has built models since he was a kid and continues to do so today." How this affects modeler's ability or willingness to spend money on his hobby and himself is quite obvious. Many of us still think we have to get permission from Daddy (or most accurately, Mommy) to spend some bucks on this "childish" pursuit we engage in, or we feel guilty if we spend more than our "allowance" on it. It's especially devastating to us to have to spend money to replace a model we crashed, because it's admitting we didn't know what we were doing. After all, "real men" don't build their own shotguns, bass boats, horses, golf clubs or whatever, and for sure they don't crash them and wreck them half the time they go out and enjoy their hobby. (Car racers are exceptions which prove the rule; they're considered only slightly more adult than us - we're pre-pubescent and they're teenagers, none of us has grown up anyway). If you're out with some of your friends and they're all talking about their hobbies, boasting of their golf scores or the fish they caught or how much money they won at the track last week, do you pipe up with news about your latest R/C success? Everyone who does, I'll give a buck. Everyone who doesn't, give me a buck. I'll have enough in a week to buy that new plane I've been lusting after. Even those who do, what kind of a reaction do you get? Sneers or laughter, I'll bet. Ribbing about still playing with kiddies toys and jokes about what's going to happen to you when you notice girls. I can't begin to tell you how many times I have had guys say to me upon seeing my models or hearing me talk about them, "Oh, yeah, I built those when I was a kid! I had this full house B-29 with six motors in it and full radio control and was flying it out of the baseball field when a bird hit it and it crashed!" Or some such story. I'll bet it's happened to everyone in here. If it's something that happens while you're in a group of guys, they'll all laugh and try to top each other's lies. What do you do? Do you stand up and say, "Hey, you guys, cut the B. S.! There's not a one of you who could a cut two sticks of balsa and make a straight spar! You were screwups when you were kids and you're still screwups now!" No, most likely you sit there and just try to ignore them, or you make some crack that indicates to all that you know they're fibbing and then turn the conversation to something else. So what it boils down to for many adult modeler's is that they're embarrassed about their hobby and don't want to call attention to themselves, so they don't pony up to buy and maintain a nice field where they can be proud to go. So they fly off garbage dumps and wonder why nobody wants to come out and play with them but the flies. ******** I have not heard from Dick Burkhalter in several years. The last I knew he was living in Hawaii. Red S. >How about this for an explanation? > >Modeler's, gotta love'em! >by Dick Burkhalter Absolutely just fantastic. One of those things that I was trying to push is national recognition of model aviation as a worthwhile recreational sport. Burkhalter has a good understanding of the situation. How many times have I / you brougt up the subject of model airplanes and if anyone does talk about it, it will be about either all those parts to cut out -- the older ones that remember stick and tissue -- and the smelly cement and paint (dope). If not that, it will be about a palstic *string-line* that would never fly. Model airplanes are definitely associated with kids as far as the general public is concerned. One other thing is that golfers, fishermen, hunters, and such enjoy the "SPORT". They go where the sport is and don't P&M all day about someone else doing it a bit differently. They pay the fees and move on. RCer seem to think someone owes them a free park in which to play, more very childish attitudes. HC I think some of you are completely missing the point of the original post. IMHO it is not fair for all clubs,regardless of size, to have to pay the same amount for insurance. The club I belong to has a grand total of 4 members. We pony up and pay rent on our field. We buy, maintain and use our own lawn mowing equipment, we buy a lot of grass seed and fertilizer. Last year we each spent almost $400 to maintain our field and AMA insurance. We do not get any handouts from any parks department or any other government, or private agency, or anybody else. Yet we are expected to pay the same for insurance as a club that has 400 members and gets a free field that is probably maintained by some government agency. Boy, talk about your skinflints. I DO NOT consider us as "skinflints". Would you like to pay the same auto insurance on your old airplane haulin minivan as you do for your Ford Excretion(sp) bulgemobile SUV? Ron, soon to become a "RENEGADE" > >How about this for an explanation? > > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > HC Lets do the math again for four guys. 90/4=$22.50 a year per member 22.50/12=$1.86 per month (rounded up) Your right, you boys are being raped! How dare the AMA set a minimum which covers their costs and is one flat fee for all clubs for the services provided. Lets treat you like a real insurance company would: How many members? Ages? Health conditions? How long has each member been flying? What types of models do they fly? Previous Hobby Accidents? How easy is it for non-members to get access to the site to watch or fly. Are you going to hold public events where non members will be flying? Explain in detail your safety plan and who monitors the site? Who owns the site? How many lawsuits have they been involved in? What type of coverage do they have? etc.... By the time a "real insurance" company profiled your fab four, your site and of course your group is way too small for large group discounts. You would not get a quote that came to just $1.86 per member a month. And it certainly would go up with each incident filed against the policy or be canceled if a large enough accident occured or a string of small ones occured over a short period. Neither would it include the other benefits associated with being an AMA field. AMA does it all assuming only that the club is following the required rules and that the members are also AMA card holders. Assuming that you are not elitists and snobs. Why not put an ad in the paper or contact the local hobby shops and see about getting more members to spread the costs. Try putting that skin flint energy into reducing your costs by getting new members. Bitching about your field costs and blaming AMA for not bending on a reasonable flat fee is not going to get you there. Getting new members and keeping them will. Bob Ruth AMA 720565 >I think some of you are completely missing the point of the original post. >IMHO it is not fair for all clubs,regardless of size, to have to pay the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Ron, soon to become a "RENEGADE" > Lets do the math again for four guys. > 90/4=$22.50 a year per member > 22.50/12=$1.86 per month (rounded up) Ok, lets do the math again for you guys 90/200=$.45 a year per member .45/12=$.0375 per month Of course you are right $1.86 a month is nothing > Your right, you boys are being raped! > How dare the AMA set a minimum which covers their costs and is one flat fee for > all clubs for the services provided. How bold of the AMA to try to make you beleive they can provide you protection for $.0375 per month. > Lets treat you like a real insurance company would: OK > How many members? 4 > Ages? 48, 52, 52, 74 > Health conditions? all 4 are Excellant, one of us is handicapped and one other is old. I don't consider either of them as anything other than excellant health. > How long has each member been flying? at least 20 years > What types of models do they fly? 40 sized sport and ele. park flyers > Previous Hobby Accidents? None > How easy is it for non-members to get access to the site to watch or fly. Go 4 miles south of town, turn right off the blacktop and drive 1/2 mile on gravel and there you are. > Are you going to hold public events where non members will be flying? NO > explain in detail your safety plan and who monitors the site? I can do that. > Who owns the site? Local farmer. > How many lawsuits have they been involved in? None > What type of coverage do they have? I don't know > etc.... One more guestion might be something like, How many hours of actual flight time do you have per month? 20 > By the time a "real insurance" company profiled your fab four, your site and of > course your group is way too small for large group discounts. You would not get > a quote that came to just $1.86 per member a month. I agree with this. And you would'nt either. But it is not up to the insurance company to decide how much each club pays. That is decided by AMA. >And it certainly would go > up with each incident filed against the policy or be canceled if a large enough > accident occured or a string of small ones occured over a short period. Yes, and the same could be said for the coverage we have now. > Neither would it include the other benefits associated with being an AMA field. And what are these benifits. and how do they relate to our 4 man group? > AMA does it all assuming only that the club is following the required rules and > that the members are also AMA card holders. I can assure you all 4 of us are card holders and we do adhere to the rules. Can you assure that in a 200 member club? > Assuming that you are not elitists and snobs. Why not put an ad in the paper or > contact the local hobby shops and see about getting more members to spread the > costs. Try putting that skin flint energy into reducing your costs by getting > new members. We live in a very small college town of 8000 population. 4000 of these are students spending OPM. We have had some students come out and express some interest. They did not think the expences were too high as long as they were spending OPM. But when they were confronted with the possibility of having to do some work they lost interest. They could not understand why someone else would not do it for them. > Bitching about your field costs and blaming AMA for not bending on a reasonable > flat fee is not going to get you there. I guess you are right, it is a reasonable flat fee. I think it is just that we feel that our $1.86 per month is subsidzing your $.0375 per month. >Getting new members and keeping them > will. > > Bob Ruth > AMA 720565 Ron > >I think some of you are completely missing the point of the original post. > >IMHO it is not fair for all clubs,regardless of size, to have to pay the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > > >Ron, soon to become a "RENEGADE" Say Ron, Is the farmer who owns the site OK with not having any site insurance? My club has to pay extra $$ each year for a special-wording certificate of insurance to satisfy the city. We do all our maintenance, the city lets us use our little piece of the city dump. CR >>Lets do the math again for four guys. >>90/4=$22.50 a year per member [quoted text clipped - 154 lines] >>> >>>Ron, soon to become a "RENEGADE" Yes, he is fine with it. Ron > Say Ron, > [quoted text clipped - 163 lines] > >>> > >>>Ron, soon to become a "RENEGADE" Ron, why is it that you only have four members? CR We had 15. 1 died 2 got into Harleys 1 moved away (job related) 1 lost interest and just quit. 1 discovered girls. (he is only 14 years old) 1 went off to the Army and then to Iraq. 1 quit because his son went off to the Army and then to Iraq. 1 quit shouting "I don't need this sh.t" as he sped away. 2 left to join the big city feebie club. Ron @ktc.com> wrote in message news:3FB90108.5010703@ktc.com... > Ron, why is it that you only have four members? > > CR > Lets do the math again for four guys. > 90/4=$22.50 a year per member [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > >probably maintained by some government agency. Boy, talk about your > >skinflints. Fly a helicopter. No club, no fees, no AMA. > >I DO NOT consider us as "skinflints". > >Would you like to pay the same auto insurance on your old airplane haulin > >minivan as you do for your Ford Excretion(sp) bulgemobile SUV? > > > >Ron, soon to become a "RENEGADE" Ron, I think you need to look at it from the perspective of a "company" (AMA) that HAS TO account for it's expenditures and cover costs of doing business etc. I don't think it's too hard to understand that there is a certain amount of paperwork involved in setting up a club and maintaining the records associated with that club over the course of a given year on top of providing the basic Club site insurance. That expended effort has been determined by the AMA to be $90 for each club entity. It does not take the AMA any less time and paperwork to maintain a 4 member club on the books as it does to maintain a 200 member club on the books. Maybe you should be thankful that it's only $90. Now keep in mind that that fee is for maintaining the CLUB paperwork and providing the CLUB insurance and has nothing to do with maintaining individual member info and providing insurance which is covered by member dues. So you can complain all you want, but the answer to your complaint is not to quit the AMA because that leaves you open to a lot of questionably liability from your flight activities. The answer is to go out and recruit more members. If you get your club membership up to a 1000 members, and only have to pay $90 for the Club dues, well, THAT'LL bring the AMA to their bloody knees. MJC > I think some of you are completely missing the point of the original post. > IMHO it is not fair for all clubs,regardless of size, to have to pay the [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > > > HC Hmmm! Wonder what the difference in effort is between maintaining an individuals AMA "paperwork" versus that of a club? Chuck > Ron, > I think you need to look at it from the perspective of a "company" (AMA) [quoted text clipped - 77 lines] > > > > > > HC > Ron, > I think you need to look at it from the perspective of a "company" (AMA) [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > it does to maintain a 200 member club on the books. Maybe you should be > thankful that it's only $90. How well would it work if the feds said our operating buject is $X0000000000 We have 50 states so each state will pay 50/$X0000000000 Of course the high roller states (Califirnia, Texas, New York) are going to love this, but the little guys are going to suffer. Does that seem fair to you? > Now keep in mind that that fee is for maintaining the CLUB paperwork and > providing the CLUB insurance and has nothing to do with maintaining > individual member info and providing insurance which is covered by member > dues. Yes, I pay that $58.00 too. > So you can complain all you want, but the answer to your complaint is > not to quit the AMA because that leaves you open to a lot of questionably > liability from your flight activities. The answer is to go out and recruit > more members. If you get your club membership up to a 1000 members, and only > have to pay $90 for the Club dues, well, THAT'LL bring the AMA to their > bloody knees. Well, there just not that many people around here to fly. There are 2 guys here that drive 125 miles round trip to the city to fly park flyers in a city park for free. They don't even belong to AMA. They come to our field to set around and talk trash and have a good time and we welcome that, it's fun. But when the conversation comes around to how much we pay the AMA in dues, charter and insurance fees, and what it costs to rent and maintain the field. They laugh at us and say we are crazy. Maybe they are right. Ron > MJC > [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > > > > > > HC A little off target, Red. For instance, golfers are not immune to contemptuous remarks about playing "cow pasture pool." Take any hobb/sport and there's someone who will belittle it. CR >>Why is it that our hobby attracts more than its fairshare of skinflints on > [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] > > Red S. Charlie, Unless you just like to argue for the sake of arguing I think the Burkhalter dissertation is much closer to the target than any thing you may choose to come up with. I've seen a heck of a lot more"corporate" golfers advance their career on the golf course than modelers at the flying field. How many sales meetings have you ever heard of that feature a hand launched glider contest . . . or a competitive fun-fly? Wake up to reality, modeling does not have the image we would like it to have, and its not getting any better. It is just too intense for the average person and the payback isn't their to support it. Red S. > A little off target, Red. For instance, golfers are not immune to > contemptuous remarks about playing "cow pasture pool." Take any [quoted text clipped - 77 lines] > > > > Red S. Come on Red, where else can you go and get to associate with a group of fellow curmudgeons? Every field has the same cast of characters: 1. The field Nazi that takes umbrage with the slightest perceived violation of any rule. 2. Mr. GotRocks that arrives with a trailer full of the latest and greatest toys and can't fly worth a damn. 3. The "Ex-spurt" that has an opinion on everything from the richness of your engine to the correct way to hold the sticks. 4. The scratch builder that arrives with the most detailed scale model you have ever seen. He takes pride in showing you the actual hair eyebrows of the pilot. It is always too windy, cold, hot, or any other excuse for him to fly his jewel. 5. The "Top Gun", he delights in doing his 3-D maneuvers with total disregard of other aircraft. 6.Those damn helicopter guys that like to fire up about the time you launch your scratch built on it's maiden flight. It makes the dead stick landing more exciting because you couldn't hear the engine quit. 7. The guy that crashes at least one airplane per visit and none of it is caused by pilot error. He is the one poor soul that suffers the wrath of the "glitch" god. He can also be heard screaming "Who turned on a radio?". 8. People like you and me who really do know everything and are pleased to share our sage advice with the willing neophyte (grin) There are probably more, but these seem essential to any club. Now you feel at home at any field because the correct cast of characters are there. Feel free to add to the list from your personal experience. > Charlie, Unless you just like to argue for the sake of arguing I think the > Burkhalter dissertation is much closer to the target than any thing you may [quoted text clipped - 129 lines] > > > > > > Red S. I've take the liberty of adding comments to your cast of characters? > Come on Red, where else can you go and get to associate with a group of > fellow curmudgeons? Every field has the same cast of characters: > > 1. The field Nazi that takes umbrage with the slightest perceived violation > of any rule. And no one can remember the last time they saw him with a transmitter in his hands. > 2. Mr. GotRocks that arrives with a trailer full of the latest and greatest > toys and can't fly worth a damn. But he does keep the scroungers in good supply of parts he doesn't feel worth removing from the wreckage. > 3. The "Ex-spurt" that has an opinion on everything from the richness of > your engine to the correct way to hold the sticks. See 1) above > 4. The scratch builder that arrives with the most detailed scale model you > have ever seen. He takes pride in showing you the actual hair eyebrows of > the pilot. It is always too windy, cold, hot, or any other excuse for him to > fly his jewel. And then he breaks the tail off putting it back in the van. > 5. The "Top Gun", he delights in doing his 3-D maneuvers with total > disregard of other aircraft. As you set in the pits fantacizing what you could do with a Remington 1100 modified choke, No 8 shot. > 6.Those damn helicopter guys that like to fire up about the time you launch > your scratch built on it's maiden flight. It makes the dead stick landing > more exciting because you couldn't hear the engine quit. See 5 above except substitue OO buck. > 7. The guy that crashes at least one airplane per visit and none of it is > caused by pilot error. He is the one poor soul that suffers the wrath of > the "glitch" god. He can also be heard screaming "Who turned on a radio?". And can't explain why the meter on his tranmitter only reads just out of the red. > 8. People like you and me who really do know everything and are pleased to > share our sage advice with the willing neophyte (grin). Except no one asks us. :-( But we set up our own web site where they can go for enlightenment. (snort) > There are probably more, but these seem essential to any club. Now you feel > at home at any field because the correct cast of characters are there. Feel > free to add to the list from your personal experience. My addition. The guy that complains to the mowing crew that they are not cutting enough of the field . . it is too hard for him to hit the mowed strip which has grown to 600 feet square. Red S. > My addition. > The guy that complains to the mowing crew that they are not cutting enough > of the field . . it is too hard for him to hit the mowed strip which has > grown to 600 feet square. Hmmm! Grown to 600 square foot (10x60)? Now you are able to fly the model again after hitting that huge target aren't you? Helicopters don't count! :) Chuck Big difference between the 600 feet square Red quoted and the 600 square feet you quoted... > > My addition. > > The guy that complains to the mowing crew that they are not cutting enough [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Chuck Well you know, I could have swore I saw 600 square feet in his post. Guess I'll have to blame it on dirty glasses. I'm not old enough for that to be an excuse. Chuck > Big difference between the 600 feet square Red quoted and the 600 square > feet you quoted... [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > > > Chuck back to those DAP meetings again with you!* Roger *DAP- People Against Dislexia >>My addition. >>The guy that complains to the mowing crew that they are not cutting enough [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Chuck > > My addition. > > The guy that complains to the mowing crew that they are not cutting enough [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Chuck 200 x 3 sounds possible to me! Even 100 x 6 wouldn't be all that bad. Robert > As you set in the pits fantacizing what you could do with a Remington 1100 > modified choke, No 8 shot. Since you brought it up, and it is Thanksgiving time...... What ever happened to that Butterball and his airplane shoot? Didn't he go away about the same time as Easterbrook? Crooks and kooks. They do keep the chat lively, but they always seem to go away. Robert Do you play golf, Red? CR > Charlie, Unless you just like to argue for the sake of arguing I think the > Burkhalter dissertation is much closer to the target than any thing you may [quoted text clipped - 202 lines] >>> >>>Red S. Not since I retired and the choice is strictly up to me rather than being a career decisioin. Red S. > Do you play golf, Red? > [quoted text clipped - 206 lines] > >>> > >>>Red S. Hmmm, so it's reasonable to infer that you played golf as a means to suck up to people whom you thought could help or hurt you. Don't let your former golfing "buddies" know! Enough, Red. I don't frequent this NG to argue with you or anyone else. It's a waste of time. CR > Not since I retired and the choice is strictly up to me rather than being a > career decisioin. [quoted text clipped - 262 lines] >>>>> >>>>>Red S. Obviously you never worked in corporate America. You are right - this is a waste of time. Go and find another RC club to sue because they won't make a private powder room for your wife. Or do we have the wrong Charles & Peggy Robinson here? Red S. > Hmmm, so it's reasonable to infer that you played golf as a means to > suck up to people whom you thought could help or hurt you. Don't let [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > CR Red, my comment was limited to the part about the hobbies/sports being belittled in some way or form. Why you branched out, I don't know. CR > Charlie, Unless you just like to argue for the sake of arguing I think the > Burkhalter dissertation is much closer to the target than any thing you may [quoted text clipped - 202 lines] >>> >>>Red S. Would someone please explain it to Charlie . . . . I don't think I can do it in a manner he would understand. :-( Red S. > Red, my comment was limited to the part about the hobbies/sports > being belittled in some way or form. Why you branched out, I don't know. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >> > >> CR Our little club is going through the same thing. We are 4 members strong and have made the same pleas to AMA with the same negative results. Perhaps some of you don't see the whole picture. Our 4 man club rents property to fly on, and are dam lucky to get it, at $400 a year, add that to the $90. We must mow our own grass. We own and maintain our own lawn mowers and maintain the field ourselves. Grass seed, fertilizer, silly little AMA safety fences, and all. last year that total expense was almost $900 and a bunch of work on the part of just 2 guys. One of our members is very old and one other is severely handicapped. Anyway, add that all up, divide by 4 and compare it to a club that I used to belong to (and nearly 200 of you still do) near a large metropolitan area that had the field leased to them for $1.00 a year from the city parks department. The local parks department kept the field maintained and mowed, and maintained a fence around it. The tax payers paid for it all. So go ahead do the math. And stop calling me a skinflint. Ron, Now a "RENEGADE" CLUB MEMBER, AND PROUD OF IT. :-) > Bob, My thoughts exactly. Why is it that our hobby attracts more than its fair > share of skinflints on the planet? [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > >>The club will retain their field and rely on each member's homeowner's > >>policy for insurance. I don't think you can charter an AMA club with four members anyhow. Joe L. >From: "Ron Weisskopf" sunshine@pcpartner.net >Date: 11/15/2003 11:31 PM Eastern Standard Time [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >Ron, Now a "RENEGADE" CLUB MEMBER, AND PROUD OF IT. :-) Our little club is going through the same thing. We are 4 members strong and have made the same pleas to AMA with the same negative results. Perhaps some of you don't see the whole picture. Our 4 man club rents property to fly on, and are dam lucky to get it, at $400 a year, add that to the $90. We must mow our own grass. We own and maintain our own lawn mowers and maintain the field ourselves. Grass seed, fertilizer, silly little AMA safety fences, and all. last year that total expense was almost $900 and a bunch of work on the part of just 2 guys. One of our members is very old and one other is severely handicapped. Anyway, add that all up, divide by 4 and compare it to a club that I used to belong to (and nearly 200 of you still do) near a large metropolitan area that had the field leased to them for $1.00 a year from the city parks department. The local parks department kept the field maintained and mowed, and maintained a fence around it. The tax payers paid for it all. So go ahead do the math. It works out to about $350 a year. Is that still a bargain? Would your club make it if EVERY MEMBER had to pay that much a year and work at the field once a week? Now stop calling me a skinflint. Ron, Soon to be member of a "RENEGADE" CLUB :-) > Bob, My thoughts exactly. Why is it that our hobby attracts more than its fair > share of skinflints on the planet? > Joe L. > Ok Let's Do the Math > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >The club will retain their field and rely on each member's homeowner's > >policy for insurance. Ok, How about cry baby? Is anyone sticking a gun up your butt to rent property to fly your planes? There are no alternatives in your area for you to fly your airplanes except renting this one person's piece of land? Gee have you cried to your landloard to get him to lower his rates? You guys bitch about the least expensive item on your list and expect the one outfit giving discount rates to bend over because you can no longer afford the luxury of operating a field. Go ahead and bail from being an AMA club. No one is going to give a rats rudder. If anything goes wrong and you end up in a lawsuit that $90 could have prevented it is your own stupidity and don't come back here crying to the rest of us. You bitch because most of us have not given you sympathy. What do you expect? Not once did you ask about ways to increase your clubs membership, increase your funds, alternatives to renting or resources to help that you might not have thought of. I have read the replies filled with excuses that indicate none of you have really tried to find alternatives to sites you can no longer afford to support. WAAAA we are in a small town. WAAAA all our old members have left. WAAAA we don't want to find alternatives just give us AMA welfare. Bullshit! Most clubs don't spring up with a 100 guys and the park service handing them choice property.A lot of them that make it start with a few guys that work their a.ses off to get members, raise money and go through a lot of hoops to locate and secure places to fly. Here is a starter list boys: Put some flyers up at the stores and the libraries. Talk to the local press to see if you can get written up in the local paper or get your clubs 10 minutes of fame on the local radio or TV news. See if there is plastic model club in town and visit with them, some of their members may fly or have an interest in getting started. Get permission from the local college to post flyers there. Kids and adults going to college may have flown before going to school and would like a close field to fly in. Visit shops and clubs in other local towns, some people are willing to travel a bit to get to a small field where they don't spend an hour in line to fly for 15 minutes. Have the club volunteer to do a FF glider day with school kids. School districts and city officials tend to lean in your direction when you ask to use their parks and play grounds if you do things for them. Find local events where you can sell things and donate a percentage to a charity to help offset the field costs. Here is the whole picture. It is a bloody hobby and if you can not or will not afford to maintain and properly insure a field then either run it half assed or give it up, but don't blame others (AMA) for not giving you welfare to support it. It is total bullshit to do the poor pitful me bit because other clubs are better off than yours. Most of those clubs and their members worked hard to get where they are and paid those base AMA field rates when they only had a few members. If you think people don't work their a.ses off to get and keep those "cheap" public land sites and the costs go down dealing with and maintaing large clubs your the one living in fantasy land. Bob Ruth AMA 720565 Enough Said! >Our little club is going through the same thing. We are 4 members strong and >have made the same pleas to AMA with the same negative results. Perhaps some [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] >> Bob Ruth >> AMA 720565 Thank you Bob, you are very helpful. Ron > Ok, How about cry baby? > Is anyone sticking a gun up your butt to rent property to fly your planes? [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > > Enough Said! Oh, you are real nice, Bob. Thanks for pitching in kicking another RC flyer when he's down. That was your only post to this forum recently-one for one-100% negative and insulting. Shame. Swede > Ok, How about cry baby? > Is anyone sticking a gun up your butt to rent property to fly your planes? [quoted text clipped - 104 lines] >>> Bob Ruth >>> AMA 720565 I've noticed that too. And not just from one time posters. Seems some people here simply have their panties in a perpetual wad and can't accept a view contrary to their own without making rude comments about the parentage of the other party. Most anything concerning the AMA is sure to bring out the leaders in this. Makes one wonder not what the future of the human race holds, but how the heck it got as far as it has? Chuck > Oh, you are real nice, Bob. Thanks for pitching in kicking another RC flyer > when he's down. That was your only post to this forum recently-one for [quoted text clipped - 110 lines] > >>> Bob Ruth > >>> AMA 720565 > Our little club is going through the same thing. We are 4 members strong and > have made the same pleas to AMA with the same negative results. Perhaps some [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > the part of just 2 guys. One of our members is very old and one other is > severely handicapped. Anyway, add that all up, divide by 4 and ....... <snip> Ron- It's clear that you are paying a lot relative to most members of larger clubs, and it's obvious why you would want to trim the fat from the budget. AMA club charter for non-competitive sport flyers means only insurance, for the property owner and for the club. If you don't need it, then it sure seems sensible to stop buying it. You said in a prior post in this thread that the property owner doesn't need the insurance. That leaves the club in question - does it need insurance? I expect with only four members, the club probably doesn't have a lot of assets like structures and equipment, so if it needs insurance, it's for liability. IANAL, but it seems to me that if you drop AMA charter, it might be best to disband the 'club,' and make the ties between modelers informal. No club, no entity to sue in the event of a liability situation, no need for club insurance. Each flyer is responsible for the consequences of his own actions, but not for the actions of other modelers that may be flying in the same area. You are far from alone in considering whether or not to remain a chartered club. About half of AMA members do not belong to chartered clubs, and that proportion seems to be growing. Club charter renewals have been dropping for several years. Last I looked at the stats, the half-life of AMA clubs in toto was about 20 years. Don't give the rhetoric that infers you are too cheap to support AMA more than its due. AMA club charter costs are subsidized by individual memberships, including those paid by non-members of AMA chartered clubs. About half of insurance claims come from clubs, but even with the recent increase in charter fees, clubs still pay far less than half of the insurance cost. Do that math. Abel Thanks Abel, that is good information and good advice. Ron > Ron- > It's clear that you are paying a lot relative to most members of [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Abel |
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