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Model Forum / Radio Controlled / Air Models / May 2004



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how do you make this stupid prop fit?!?!

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John Young - 06 May 2004 05:22 GMT
Hope someone can help a complete novice (rc plane idiot)  I broke the 3
blade prop on my alpha 60 trainer and could not get an exact replacement, so
the tech at Horizon reccommended a 12x6 prop.  Went to the local hobby store
and bought two APC 12x6 props.  Dang!  wouldn't fit on the 3 blade spinner.
Went back to the hobby store and bought 2." dubro spinner, went back home.

On the back plate there is small post that presumably the trailing edge of
the prop is suppose to rest against.  Unfortunately, the prop doesn't fit
properly and I can't get the spinner to fit.  I've carved a little on the
spinner to try to get it to fit, but it looks like I really need to cut off
the posts or grind a groove in the trailing edge of the prop so it will fit.

My question is this:  Is it safe to remove the posts on the backplate of the
spinner so the prop will fit right?

Thanks!
Paul McIntosh - 06 May 2004 07:31 GMT
It won't make a lot of difference if you can get the spinner carved out to
fit the prop.  I suggest you take the plane and spinner to the shop and have
them show you the proper way to do it.

--
Paul McIntosh
http://www.rc-bearings.com
> Hope someone can help a complete novice (rc plane idiot)  I broke the 3
> blade prop on my alpha 60 trainer and could not get an exact replacement, so
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Thanks!
C.O.Jones - 06 May 2004 10:35 GMT
> It won't make a lot of difference if you can get the spinner carved out to
> fit the prop.  I suggest you take the plane and spinner to the shop and have
> them show you the proper way to do it.

No difference at all other than throwing the whole thing out of balance.
But if you don't mind taking the chance of vibration destroying the model,
go for it!  Just don't run the engine around me.

Sounds to me like you need a bigger spinner.  A 12 inch prop sounds to be on
the large side for a 2 inch spinner. Or, fly it without a spinner.  Nothing
saying you can't.
Paul McIntosh - 06 May 2004 17:41 GMT
Are you going to tell everyone that EVERY prop and spinner combination you
ever bought fit right out of the box?  Most all plastic spinners come cut
out for the minimum prop size.  Almost all of them need to be carved out to
fit properly.  Done right, there is no more risk with them than with stock.

--
Paul McIntosh
http://www.rc-bearings.com

> > It won't make a lot of difference if you can get the spinner carved out to
> > fit the prop.  I suggest you take the plane and spinner to the shop and
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> the large side for a 2 inch spinner. Or, fly it without a spinner.  Nothing
> saying you can't.
C.O.Jones - 06 May 2004 21:31 GMT
> Are you going to tell everyone that EVERY prop and spinner combination you
> ever bought fit right out of the box?  Most all plastic spinners come cut
> out for the minimum prop size.  Almost all of them need to be carved out to
> fit properly.  Done right, there is no more risk with them than with stock.

I have never "carved out" (your words) the openings of a spinner.  I either
purchased a bigger spinner that would fit the prop out of the box or I would
fly without a spinner.  Or, in the case of Tru Turn spinners I would get the
existing cone modified by Tru Turn or a new cone made with larger openings.
Why?  Because Tru Turn balances their spinners!  Duh!

But unlike you, I would not recommend to "a complete novice" (his words) to
go hacking on a plastic spinner.  Especially without telling him the need to
properly balance the spinner as well as the prop.  You are simply asking for
an accident!  But from you Paul, I expect as much!  You're obviously about
as safe as a condom that's open at both ends!  Stay clear of my field!
Paul McIntosh - 06 May 2004 22:57 GMT
And you only show up when you can make an a.s out of yourself.  I see very
little from you in the way of help here, only criticism.  Your flying site
must be a very lonely place.

--
Paul McIntosh
http://www.rc-bearings.com

> > Are you going to tell everyone that EVERY prop and spinner combination you
> > ever bought fit right out of the box?  Most all plastic spinners come cut
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> an accident!  But from you Paul, I expect as much!  You're obviously about
> as safe as a condom that's open at both ends!  Stay clear of my field!
C.O.Jones - 07 May 2004 10:47 GMT
> And you only show up when you can make an a.s out of yourself.  I see very
> little from you in the way of help here, only criticism.  Your flying site
> must be a very lonely place.

Dream on oh clueless one!  Dream on!
Fred McClellan - 07 May 2004 19:16 GMT
>And you only show up when you can make an a.s out of yourself.  I see very
>little from you in the way of help here, only criticism.  Your flying site
>must be a very lonely place.

If you believe the tale told, he flies from his own private site.

Cheers,
Fred McClellan
The House Of Balsa Dust
home.mindspring.com/~the-plumber
Paul McIntosh - 07 May 2004 20:15 GMT
Maybe because he acts like that at the public ones?

--
Paul McIntosh
http://www.rc-bearings.com

> >And you only show up when you can make an a.s out of yourself.  I see very
> >little from you in the way of help here, only criticism.  Your flying site
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> The House Of Balsa Dust
> home.mindspring.com/~the-plumber
Fred McClellan - 07 May 2004 23:19 GMT
>Maybe because he acts like that at the public ones?

If there is any such thing as a safe bet, methinks you've pegged it.
Cheers,
Fred McClellan
The House Of Balsa Dust
home.mindspring.com/~the-plumber
C.O.Jones - 08 May 2004 14:00 GMT
> Maybe because he acts like that at the public ones?

In this case there are no public ones within a reasonable drive!  But you're
right, I act with intelligence on the public ones as well.  Not stupid with
bad advice like you do.
Paul McIntosh - 08 May 2004 16:42 GMT
Yea, right.

--
Paul McIntosh
http://www.rc-bearings.com

> > Maybe because he acts like that at the public ones?
>
> In this case there are no public ones within a reasonable drive!  But you're
> right, I act with intelligence on the public ones as well.  Not stupid with
> bad advice like you do.
C.O.Jones - 09 May 2004 12:15 GMT
> Yea, right.

Glad to see you finally agree!
Martin X. Moleski, SJ - 07 May 2004 00:50 GMT
>I have never "carved out" (your words) the openings of a spinner.  ...

I have, dozens of times.

Plastic & aluminum alike.

No problems so far (1995-2004).

            Marty
Mike Norton - 07 May 2004 01:54 GMT
> > Are you going to tell everyone that EVERY prop and spinner combination you
> > ever bought fit right out of the box?  Most all plastic spinners come cut
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> an accident!  But from you Paul, I expect as much!  You're obviously about
> as safe as a condom that's open at both ends!  Stay clear of my field!

Note that I am not front-posting :-) (nod to a previous thread)

On every plastic spinner I have ever had, I have carved out the openings to
fit the prop.  I do it as carefully and symmetrically as possible, then go
fly.  (For metal spinners, I am a little more careful - I use the Top Flite
magentically suspended balencer).  I don't seem to have problems, and it
lets me build ARFs with the spinner in the box.

The main failure mode for plastic spinners seems to be a backfire that
breaks the spinner apart.  These occur when starting, not when the engine is
at full song.  In one case, the pieces were about 50 feet apart.

-- Mike Norton
Martin X. Moleski, SJ - 07 May 2004 02:13 GMT
> ... The main failure mode for plastic spinners seems to be a backfire that
>breaks the spinner apart.  ...

BTDT.

You should see what a YS 1.20 AC does to an aluminum spinner when
it backfires.  :o(

                    Marty
jim breeyear - 13 May 2004 14:51 GMT
There is something about realizing that the prop, backplate , spinner
and nut have just left the airplane for who knows where. I check for
foreign objects sticking out of my body. I stay out of the YS and Saito
4 stroke pits on our field.

> You should see what a YS 1.20 AC does to an aluminum spinner when
> it backfires.  :o(
>
>                     Marty
Six_O'Clock_High - 13 May 2004 21:27 GMT
> There is something about realizing that the prop, backplate , spinner
> and nut have just left the airplane for who knows where. I check for
> foreign objects sticking out of my body. I stay out of the YS and Saito
> 4 stroke pits on our field.

Sounds like your club has a bunch of guys pushing those engines to the
limit.  My Saito's are tuned so they don't backfire.

> > You should see what a YS 1.20 AC does to an aluminum spinner when
> > it backfires.  :o(
> >
> > Marty
Paul McIntosh - 13 May 2004 23:07 GMT
I have seen just as many Saitos throw props from being too rich as from
being too lean.  They are strange running engines that produce a good amount
of power for their size.

--
Paul McIntosh
http://www.rc-bearings.com

> > There is something about realizing that the prop, backplate , spinner
> > and nut have just left the airplane for who knows where. I check for
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> > >
> > > Marty
Sport_Pilot - 07 May 2004 18:07 GMT
To by a spinner that fits a 12" prop would mean buying a 3 1/2"
spinner.  That might look a bit funny with a 1/4" or more hanging out
the side of the fuse.  I would rather buy a smaller spinner and carve
it out.

> > Are you going to tell everyone that EVERY prop and spinner combination you
> > ever bought fit right out of the box?  Most all plastic spinners come cut
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> an accident!  But from you Paul, I expect as much!  You're obviously about
> as safe as a condom that's open at both ends!  Stay clear of my field!
MrBonk - 06 May 2004 07:53 GMT
Simply replace the plastic spinner with a 'spinner nut' instead.  Much
easier to live with, unless you want to use the cone type spinner for
aesthetic reasons.

MrBonk
www.mrbonk.com

> Hope someone can help a complete novice (rc plane idiot)  I broke the 3
> blade prop on my alpha 60 trainer and could not get an exact replacement, so
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Thanks!
Ted Campanelli - 06 May 2004 12:28 GMT
On 5/6/2004 12:22 AM Ted shuffled out of his cave and grunted these
great (and sometimes not so great) words of knowledge:

If you decide to do as Mr. Bonk suggested, Use a prop nut instead of the
spinner, just reverse the rubber cone in your electric starter.  After
you take the rubber piece out of the metal housing (it pulls out - may
need some silicone lube to get it loose) you will see a small hole on
the bottom.  Put the insert back in with the small hole facing out.  The
small hole goes over the nut and the rubber presses against the prop
blades to start the engine.  Sounds complicated, but it isn't.

Another option is one of the "Higgley" brand "Hubs".  Do not get the
heavy hub, just the regular one.  These are threaded and you uses them
just as you would a prop nut, but they are rounded.  If you decide to do
this, I suggest bringing the starter with you to make sure the insert on
the starter will grasp the Higgley properly.  They also make different
size inserts in case yours is too large.

Just my $0.02 worth.

> Hope someone can help a complete novice (rc plane idiot)  I broke the 3
> blade prop on my alpha 60 trainer and could not get an exact replacement, so
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Thanks!
Martin X. Moleski, SJ - 06 May 2004 12:31 GMT
>On the back plate there is small post that presumably the trailing edge of
>the prop is suppose to rest against.  Unfortunately, the prop doesn't fit
>properly and I can't get the spinner to fit.  I've carved a little on the
>spinner to try to get it to fit, but it looks like I really need to cut off
>the posts or grind a groove in the trailing edge of the prop so it will fit.

You may carve the spinner to fit the prop.

Don't grind a groove in the prop!  You don't want the blade
to fall apart when it's being spun at several thousand RPM.

>My question is this:  Is it safe to remove the posts on the backplate of the
>spinner so the prop will fit right?

I usually try to keep the posts and carve in front of them.  But
I've broken the posts with backfires, tightened everything up
OK, and then continued flying with the "broken" spinner.

Do your best to take the same amount of material from both
sides of the spinner.

Don't let the spinner touch the prop at all--carve enough
away from the prop so that it's got a little clearance all
the way around the opening in the spinner.

I use a Dremel tool for enlarging the spinner openings.
If you use a knife, watch out for your fingers.  Don't ask
me how I got so shmart.  :o(

                    Marty
Dr1Driver - 06 May 2004 12:48 GMT
>My question is this:  Is it safe to remove the posts on the backplate of the
>spinner so the prop will fit right?

I wouldn't.  DO NOT carve or cut on the prop AT ALL!  You basically have two
choices.  
1. Buy a larger spinner.  You may have to cut out the prop openings in it.  If
so, be sure no part of the spinner cone touches the prop.  If it does,
vibration will quickly wear a groove in the prop that will cause it to shed a
blade at some point.  VERY DANGEROUS.
2. Ditch the plastic spinner and go with a "Safety Nut" like Higley or Great
Planes sells.  As someone else suggested, if you do that, reverse the cone in
your starter so the small hole faces outwards.
Dr.1 Driver
"There's a Hun in the sun!"
Carrell - 07 May 2004 06:57 GMT
Hope someone can help a complete novice (rc plane idiot)  I broke the 3
blade prop on my alpha 60 trainer and could not get an exact replacement, so
the tech at Horizon reccommended a 12x6 prop.  Went to the local hobby store
and bought two APC 12x6 props.  Dang!  wouldn't fit on the 3 blade spinner.
Went back to the hobby store and bought 2." dubro spinner, went back home.

On the back plate there is small post that presumably the trailing edge of
the prop is suppose to rest against.  Unfortunately, the prop doesn't fit
properly and I can't get the spinner to fit.  I've carved a little on the
spinner to try to get it to fit, but it looks like I really need to cut off
the posts or grind a groove in the trailing edge of the prop so it will fit.

My question is this:  Is it safe to remove the posts on the backplate of the
spinner so the prop will fit right?

Thanks!
==================================

Definitely do not grind the prop, it will cause it to break.

A 2" spinner is tiny for a 60 size trainer.  I had a Great Planes 3"
aluminum spinner on my Great Planes PT-60 and it cleared a 12x6 prop with no
issues.  I 'landed' nose first a few weeks ago and broke the spinner.  Now
I'm using a Higley aluminum acorn nut and am pretty happy with it.  Dubro
sells aluminum 'spinner nuts' that are cone shaped and are supposed to work
with standard starter inserts. I have one somewhere; maybe I'll dig it out
and install it.

My 'landings' have cost me either 3 of these aluminum spinners; I'm not rich
enough to keep replacing them.
Six_O'Clock_High - 08 May 2004 02:59 GMT
<SNIP>

> Definitely do not grind the prop, it will cause it to break.
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> My 'landings' have cost me either 3 of these aluminum spinners; I'm not rich
> enough to keep replacing them.

Me thinks you need to do some high altitude SLOW flight practice so you
recognize when the plane is about to STOP flying and fall.  Then you might
think about the approach to flare a bit so you are ready next time.
Dissertation follows.

Before you do any of the following steps, make absolutely sure your CG is
correct.  A tail heavy plane will fly, just not for as long as a slightly
nose heavy one.

Set up the needles so the engine will idle for 3 to 5 minutes and not die
when you hammer the throttle.  This is the most important thing you MUST do
for it will mean learning or praying you can flare properly if the engine
dies.

Take off and turn when there is daylight between the fuselage and the
horizon.  When the plane is 45 degrees to you turn (down wind leg) and check
to see if the elevator is trimmed properly.  If it is, hammer the elevator
(with the throttle still at full) and hold it until the plane is back level.
If it will not complete the loop, recover and land carefully because you
have a dangerous situation that must be corrected.

If the plane snaps out of the loop you have too much elevator throw or the
bird is tail heavy.  Since you have already checked that, reduce the
elevator throw and return to the prior test.

Once the plane is capable of a complete loop, under control, you are ready
for the next step.

Begin this step at altitude - 4 mistakes high the first time or two until
you get comfortable with the procedure.  Once high enough, turn from base to
final leg and pull the throttle at the same time.  Do not let the plane come
down rather feed in enough elevator to keep it going level as the airspeed
decays.  The goal here is to be able to see the plane stall about the same
time (or just after) the elevator stick reaches full travel.  If the plane
falls off before you get that slow, you are probably slightly tail heavy and
than should be corrected.

Once you can get the plane to fly in the above condition, practice a few
circuits of the airfield at that altitude, airspeed, and without loosing
altitude.  It is HARD work but the knowledge you gain will be priceless
later on.

That is the beginning of learning how to land.  The next steps have to do
with learning how to set up the approach and flare which is where most
beginners break props.

Turn final, cut the power and allow the bird to come down to shoulder level
before you begin much in the way of elevator control (I teach at a SMALL and
TIGHT field).  When the plane is at shoulder level, begin to gently bring
the nose 1/2 way up from where it is to level.  The plane slows down its
descent.  When it reaches waist level, slowly and gently bring the nose 1/2
the remaining way to the level and hold it there.  As the speed decays the
plane will begin to sink.  When it gets to knee level the fuselage needs to
be gently and slowly brought to level.  At any of those places where 'gently
and slowly' was used you jerk the elevator, the plane will balloon and MOST
folks dork it in right there.  This is one good reason to practice slow
flight so you get knowledgeable about control responses when the bird is
SLOW.

At knee level with the fuselage level, the plane will slow and sink.  As it
sinks, gently pull back to raise the nose and arrest the sink.  Keep this up
until the wheels are on the ground.

Good luck.
 
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