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Model Forum / Radio Controlled / Air Models / May 2004Overfly rights
Considering buying 6 acres of land to fly off of. Parking, runway, pavilion has anybody delt with what is required to fly over adjacent property? Phil All you need is permission of the landowner. You would also want recovery permission! This is a viable option for many flying sites in rural areas. Best to incorporate as a club and get liability insurance so that when you approach landowner, you look like you have done this before and know what you are doing! -- Paul McIntosh http://www.rc-bearings.com > Considering buying 6 acres of land to fly off of. Parking, runway, > pavilion has anybody delt with what is required to fly over adjacent > property? > > Phil A little more clarification. We already lease the property have for years, we want to buy it. We already have the permission to overfly the adjacent property, but currently since he is also to whom we pay rent, he holds both pieces of property and if he were to sell a piece of the overfly area we could just walk away, part of the lease agreement. Has anybody been involved in some type of sales agreement to which an over flight right of way has been negotiated? i.e. If he decides to decline over flight permission after the sale. I'm giving the simple version here. Actually the owner is a group of property owners, each owning a share of the acreage in the over flight area. > All you need is permission of the landowner. You would also want recovery > permission! This is a viable option for many flying sites in rural areas. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > > > Phil > A little more clarification. We already lease the property have for years, we > want to buy it. We already have the permission to overfly the adjacent [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > sale. I'm giving the simple version here. Actually the owner is a group of > property owners, each owning a share of the acreage in the over flight area. If they want to sell, make it part of the sale and title covenants. If you can afford a good real estate lawyer, get it agreed that even if they sell the current adjacent property, your overfly and recovery rights are protected. -- Dave Thompson Unless you can negotiate a long term overflight deal with the landowners, I wouldn't buy the property. Consult a land rights attorney. -- Paul McIntosh http://www.rc-bearings.com > A little more clarification. We already lease the property have for years, we > want to buy it. We already have the permission to overfly the adjacent [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > > > > > Phil > A little more clarification. We already lease the property have for years, we > want to buy it. We already have the permission to overfly the adjacent [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > sale. I'm giving the simple version here. Actually the owner is a group of > property owners, each owning a share of the acreage in the over flight area. I'd be real nice to everyone involved. All it takes is a cheap scanner and a Hitec channel selector. Your club would end immediatly. FWIW, some property owners on the east coast are suing some full size aerobatic fliers, claiming the airspace over their properties is "theirs", and the pilots need to have permission. The FAA had given the pilots authorization for their aerobatics box, but the landowners didn't like the noise they claim was being generated. Hopefully, this stupid suit will be defeated, but it will cost money! John I side with the land owners since aerobatic flight at low level is inherently dangerous. Teh FAA can give them permission to do it, but the FAA has no right so impose the increased risk on the landowners. -- Paul McIntosh http://www.rc-bearings.com > FWIW, some property owners on the east coast are suing some full size > aerobatic fliers, claiming the airspace over their properties is [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > John >I side with the land owners since aerobatic flight at low level is >inherently dangerous. Teh FAA can give them permission to do it, but the >FAA has no right so impose the increased risk on the landowners. The way I understand it, they are using noise as the basis of their suit. Nothing to do with aerobatics. If successful, their suit would ban_all_GA. > pavilion has anybody delt with what is required to fly over adjacent > property? Nobody owns airspace but you should consider how you will recover the planes that don't make it back home, and that will happen eventually. Were it mine I would be nice and explain the situation and invite them over, helps to diffuse the noise issue as well. Might even get a new person flying in the end. >Nobody owns airspace but you should consider how you will recover the >planes that don't make it back home, and that will happen eventually. Without some cooperation with the landowner, you won't need the airspace. Models can easily be grounded by noise complaints, etc... Models do not have a "right" to fly. We generally lose pissing contests. Talking about overflight ahead of time is an excellent idea. Barry Tel that to the FAA and every major airport and government. The government can enforce anything they want. -- Paul McIntosh http://www.rc-bearings.com > > pavilion has anybody delt with what is required to fly over adjacent > > property? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > over, helps to diffuse the noise issue as well. Might even get a new > person flying in the end. | Nobody owns airspace Is that really true? I know you can generally fly a full scale plane (you know, with a pilot sitting in the plane?) just about anywhere (as long as you're not flying in a controlled region -- near an airport, military base, President's house, etc.) Of course, you're expected to keep above certain altitude unless you're taking off or landing. (1000 ft? 400 ft? Dunno.) I tend to doubt that applies to R/C planes, unless perhaps they're above a certain altitude, which would be higher than most people spend the majority of their flights at. Noise issues can't be the only thing -- people do complain about electrics (quiet) and gliders (almost completely silent.) And then there's the issue of retreiving lost planes, but it can be (unwisely) ignored at first. http://www.modelaircraft.org/templates/ama/PDF-files/526.pdf has some thoughts on the matter. Of course, the AMA does not dictate law, but they seem to think that the law generally means that airspace is owned.  SignatureDoug McLaren, dougmc@frenzy.com "Not all chemicals are bad. Without chemicals such as hydrogen and oxygen, for example, there would be no way to make water, a vital ingredient in beer." -- Dave Barry Nobody owns the airspace, but that's not what will get the club grounded. All the owner of the adjacent property has to do is to register a hazard complaint against the club and they're done. Setting up a flying field that's small enough to require adjacent overfly areas is risky business and your right to fly will ultimately have nothing to do with YOUR ownership of the property, but with the people who own the adjacent property. Personally, I wouldn't recommend obligating yourself (by buying) unless you could get at least 25+ acres, and even then, you'd have to be sure that it's generally rectangular in size and then map out your runways so you don't have to overfly adjacent property. And even THEN, you still have the problem of crashing off-property, so your neighbors are still going to affect your daily operations. There's a club somewhere around Houston that bought their own 50 acre flying site and I've heard that even they have to keep their neighbor happy. If someone were to cause significant damage, or worse yet, hit someone on the neighbors property, that club would be history (as a model flying site). MJC > > pavilion has anybody delt with what is required to fly over adjacent > > property? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > over, helps to diffuse the noise issue as well. Might even get a new > person flying in the end. > Nobody owns the airspace, but that's not what will get the club > grounded. All the owner of the adjacent property has to do is to register a [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > If someone were to cause significant damage, or worse yet, hit someone on > the neighbors property, that club would be history (as a model flying site). Just on a side note. When I was considering building a flying site on my property I did some calculations. I figured a 400 foot runway with all flying off either end and to one side with the pits on the other side. Through tests it was determined that a typical modeler could see a typical model well enough to control it to a range of about 1/4 mile. Drawn out we have a rough semi circle representing a 1/4 mile overflight off each end and to one side of the 400 foot runway. Consideration was given for approaches and departures straying to the pit side of center and we calculated some 83 acres were needed to make this happen. And that is if the property is shaped perfectly to the needs of flying. Just food for thought. And BTW, my eyes are 20/10. I have reports of my models overflying my house and barn some 3/8 mile away. The horses don't seem to mind but for safety sake, I'm looking at another 100 acres and will move the flying field this winter. Chuck It's called permission -- in writing :-) Cheers -- \__________Lyman Slack_________/ \______AMA6430 IMAA1564___/ \____Flying Gators R/C______/ \__Gainesville FL _________/ Visit my Web Site at: http://www.LymanSlack.com > Considering buying 6 acres of land to fly off of. Parking, runway, > pavilion has anybody delt with what is required to fly over adjacent > property? > > Phil The old "Nobody owns the air" argument doesn't apply here. The adjacent property owners CAN prevent you from flying over their property. They can certainly prevent you from recovering a plane on their property also. A video of flying activities with sound goes a long way in a court room. You might want to use AMA's flying field assistance program. We got a lot of useful information from them. Dealing with a single land owner would be a lot easier than dealing with a group. Good Luck Bill > Considering buying 6 acres of land to fly off of. Parking, runway, > pavilion has anybody delt with what is required to fly over adjacent > property? > > Phil Some other things to consider. What are the future possible uses of the adjoining land? Raising deer? Certainly wouldn't want bloody planes buzzing around them Raising sheep? Wouldn't want planes buzzing around at lambing time. Operating a cattle stud? Who is going to be the brave person who fronts a bloody big bull to retrieve their plane? Breeding dogs? MMmmm they may not appreciate strangers on 'their' property Growing veges or flowers? Owners might not want people stomping over their crops Kids riding horses or bikes? I wouldn't want planes over the top of my kids Kids operating remote control cars? Mmmm could be some problems there, and you can't shoo them away from their own land I guess there are many other options - the point is the owners of adjoining land have the right to use their land (as the law may allow) as they see fit - and if it interfers with your flying then bad luck, for you. David > The old "Nobody owns the air" argument doesn't apply here. The adjacent > property owners CAN prevent you from flying over their property. They can [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > > > Phil | Raising deer? Certainly wouldn't want bloody planes buzzing around them The deer that frequent out field don't seem to care, unless you get within 30 or so feet of them. | Operating a cattle stud? Who is going to be the brave person who fronts a | bloody big bull to retrieve their plane? Retrieving a lost plane is really a different issue than flying overhead. It doesn't happen often (hopefully) and you may even be willing to consider the plane `lost'. Perhaps the land owner would be happy if he got to keep anything lost over his property? (Or could sell it back to you? Best to negotiate that sort of thing first though.) People do lose things in other people's property all the time. Ever accidently thrown a frisbee or ball in somebody else's yard? Technically I guess it's tresspassing even if you don't retrieve it, but hopefully your neighbors aren't so uncool. Of course, a ball can break a window, but a plane could do more damage than that, and that's the real concern. | Breeding dogs? MMmmm they may not appreciate strangers on 'their' property Really, you should get permission from the land owner before retrieving your plane. If there's a problem, the land owner should retrieve it for you. You could negotiate a $20 (or whatever) fee for every plane retrieved from the land owner's property. They might find that makes up for the inconvenience :) | Kids riding horses or bikes? I wouldn't want planes over the top of my kids Flying over people is a bad idea in any event, be they kids or adults, friendly or hostile. | Kids operating remote control cars? Mmmm could be some problems there, and | you can't shoo them away from their own land The only problems I see are the ones regarding flying over people. Unless they're using 27 mhz and so are you, or they're (illegally) using 72 mhz equipment ... | I guess there are many other options - the point is the owners of adjoining | land have the right to use their land (as the law may allow) as they see fit | - and if it interfers with your flying then bad luck, for you. Invite them to join your club for free. Provide them with a plane if you're so inclined, or let them fly yours (on a buddy box) ... SignatureDoug McLaren, dougmc@frenzy.com `Do not look into laser with remaining eye' -WPI laser lab > Kids riding horses or bikes? I wouldn't want planes over the top of my kids Horses can be tricky. The best horse can suddenly spook for the strangest of reasons. When in the herd they seem to tolerate and get use to the noise rather quickly. But under rider something like a model can suddenly turn a nice trail ride into a harrowing and deadly experience. To see how they would respond was one of the reasons I let a field go in on my property. And because of that is one of the reasons I'm going to move the field a bit further away. > The old "Nobody owns the air" argument doesn't apply here. The adjacent > property owners CAN prevent you from flying over their property. They can [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Good Luck > Bill To paraphrase an old schoolmatser I once had.. "anyone has teh right to overfly anyone elses property, and they have the right to take a 12 gauge to the model if it does" >>Considering buying 6 acres of land to fly off of. Parking, runway, >>pavilion has anybody delt with what is required to fly over adjacent >>property? >> >>Phil SNIP > To paraphrase an old schoolmatser I once had.. > > "anyone has teh right to overfly anyone elses property, and they have > the right to take a 12 gauge to the model if it does" SNIP Please try that and let us know what color your prison cloths are. > SNIP > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Please try that and let us know what color your prison cloths are. Huh? Its been done... You are allowed to shoot game over your own prpoperty. 'Sorry ossifer, I thought it was a pigeon' Others (Dave Thompson's remarks are on target) have given you good advice, however make sure that you have enough 'buffer' room in the over flight NOT to get noise complaints in the future. Be a real PITA if you had to shut down operations because some little old lady complained to the authorities enough times about those noisy little toy airplanes... Remember, you need the overfly and recovery rights AND enough buffer area to protect the sound. If that is not available, consider not purchasing it. > Considering buying 6 acres of land to fly off of. Parking, runway, > pavilion has anybody delt with what is required to fly over adjacent > property? > > Phil Phil, Just a note about your own personal flying field: I had my own in VA...30+ acres with plenty of over fly. At first I flew with more vigor and frequency than a honeymooner, but after a while I missed flying with the folks at the club field. Eventually I only used it occasionally to test a model and even then it usually needed mowing first. I would not invest in that much real property again for that purpose. Phil AMA609 > Considering buying 6 acres of land to fly off of. Parking, runway, > pavilion has anybody delt with what is required to fly over adjacent > property? > > Phil |
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