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Model Forum / Radio Controlled / Air Models / June 2004How our AMA works.
FYI. The rules according to Dave Brown - AMA President. OK, there is the membership manual - seemingly a worthless document to lean on. Who knows what "exceptions" lie in the dusty archives of EC minutes of a decade or more ago. Then there are a number of official AMA publications, such as the application for Leader Member, time as an AMA member prior to applying to be a leader member is a requirement. I guess there is no tie-in between the membership manual, what is implied and any other "requirements" spelled out in other AMA documents, meeting minutes, application forms etc.. Now we know why Muncie maintains a legal staff. Red S. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Brown" <dbrown@dbproducts.com> To: "Red Scholefield" <redscho@bellsouth.net> Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 3:36 PM Subject: Re: interim VP 5 > Where in the membership manual did you find the "requirement" itself??? > > The policy of allowing a VP to waive the requirement, is in the same place > as the requirement, itself, is established (EC minutes). > > As to the EC reviewing each appointment to LM status, that, simply could not > happen, and a staff member is unlikely to challenge an elected officer. The > members elect their VP, and I do not expect the members would be very happy > if that VP was told, exactly how he should conduct the business of his > district. > > You say the EC should have "reviewed", and approved, this (perhaps any) > decision that Jim makes, yet, I'm sure you would have a real problem with > the EC "over-riding" something Tony (Stillman - candidate for Dist V VP) did, using his judgement, > .......wouldn't you??? > > In the end, the members elect the VP's, those VP's establish rules which > they are governed by, and it becomes up to each VP to make good decisions, > within the framework of those rules. If a VP makes bad decisions, The EC > will make more rules, or the members will elect someone else as their VP. > In Jim's case, he kept getting re-elected, so the majority of members > (perhaps it's a plurality, but, in any case, more voted for him, than for > any other candidate) must be content with his performance. If the EC was to > "micromanage" everything the VP's did, it would yield chaos. > > Dave Brown > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Red Scholefield" <redscho@bellsouth.net> > To: "Dave Brown" <dbrown@dbproducts.com> > Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 5:37 PM > Subject: Re: interim VP 5 > > > Dave, > > > > We researched the rules (as published in the Membership Manual) quite > > thoroughly. Based on these rules and not knowing that this requirement > could > > be waived by the VP (but it is not a surprise) we were challenging the > > appointment of Judi Dunlap. > > > > Some AMA members are rapidly coming to the conclusion that our By-Laws are > a > > joke enabling a "creative" VP to do just about whatever serves his agenda. > > Which in McNeill's case was to appoint a back-up that wouldn't have a > > snowball's chance in hell of ever running against him and winning and yet > > garner lots of votes from one of the largest clubs in his District. > > > > His legacy lives on in Judi Dunlap (about as unqualified as one can get > and > > most people know it) who has stated that she doesn't plan on changing > > anything. I expect by the time Tony takes office the Frequency Monitoring > > equipment disbursed (read permanently assigned) by McNeill will be > > untraceable. I guess District V can live with another 6 months of > business > > as usual, we have survived the last 12 years of it. The circumstances > (will > > full credit to the EC) whereby Dunlap can serve for another 6 months, sans > > any election, as VP and then run as an incumbent ??? will cause a few > > eyebrows to be raised never the less. > > > > You stated, " I suppose one could argue that this did not constitute an > > "extraordinary situation", but that would be impossible to define. It is, > > obviously the VP's call, and Jim made it." Yes, and it is obvious that it > be > > incumbent on the EC to make sure the VP defined the "extraordinary > > situation". Seriously, are these things ever challenged by the EC as a > > body? What will it take to define the rules under which a VP operates his > > district and make sure they adhere to them or at the very least follow the > > intent? The impression, at least from our experience in District V, is > that > > the guidelines in the Membership Manual as to how AVPs were assigned and > > used could be ignored by the VP if it didn't fit his personal agenda. > Yes, > > I know, the membership voted for him as you like to quote. The 10,000 > > members also couldn't read where to send in their ballots in the last > > election also - so much for depending on them to make a knowledgeable > > selection of our leadership. Even more to support the argument that the > > By-Laws need to honed to effectively reduce manipulation and creative > > interpretation. > > > > In the meantime I hope there is an active program to clean up the By-Laws > > and get all of the "gotchas" out on the table and in writing. > > > > I guess the Dunlap issue is put to bed as the chances of us getting stuck > > with another McNeill in our lifetime is quite remote. > > > > Red Scholefield > > Leader Member (and still trying to give a damn about our AMA) > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Dave Brown" <dbrown@dbproducts.com> > > To: "Red Scholefield" <redscho@bellsouth.net> > > Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 3:44 PM > > Subject: interim VP 5 > > > > > Red: > > > > > > You are, probably, not going to like this, but here it is > > > > > > I finally found the "rules" in regards to LM status. > > > > > > First, the Bylaws, Article IX section 3 require that an appointee as CC, > > or > > > AVP be a LM. > > > > > > Second, the Bylaws, Article III, section 1, paragraph d, gives the EC > the > > > authority to determine the qualifications for LM status. > > > > > > Third, Researching the EC minutes, we found that the minutes of the EC > > > meeting on 10/27/90 contain the following: > > > > > > "By concensus, it was ordered that Leader Member requirements be > > consistent > > > with that of Contest Directors, I.E., that a minimum of three years of > > > continuous current AMA membership be required prior to application for > > > Leader Member status. The Vice President of each district may waive this > > > requirement for extraordinary situations and/or conditions." > > > > > > We, further looked up the application filled out by Judi Dunlap, for LM > > > status, and written on it, and signed by Jim McNeill was a statement > that > > he > > > was waiving the 3 yr requirement. > > > > > > I suppose one could argue that this did not constitute an "extraordinary > > > situation", but that would be impossible to define. It is, obviously > the > > > VP's call, and Jim made it. > > > > > > I feel that this puts this subject to bed. > > > > > > Ironically, part of this problem was created by relying on the "origin > > date" > > > in the membership records, and a casual review of these, reveals that > they > > > are NOT reliable. As an example, The origin date for my own membership > > > comes up in 1981, and I was elected to the EC before that! Reviewing, > > > randomly, other people I know, revealed numerous problems. Obviously, > we > > > need to look into what has happened in this area (I, for example, moved > > in, > > > about, 1981....could that be the problem?) (FYI, your record has you > > joining > > > in 83, and I know you were a member before that). In part, my looking > > into > > > this aspect was brought about as a result of a Hq's handwritten, note on > > the > > > LM application of Judi Dunlap, which indicated some time as a member > when > > > she was in Maryland, which MAY have made this whole subject moot. > > > > > > Dave Brown > > > AMA President Rather than sit here (and elsewhere) bitchin'! Run for office! If elected then maybe you can fix what's broke! Or at least get the fix started. And if you're not elected, you can always blame the members for not voting for you. Either way, perhaps it will allow you to stop bitchin' here all the time! > FYI. The rules according to Dave Brown - AMA President. > [quoted text clipped - 194 lines] > > > > Dave Brown > > > > AMA President We have a very qualified, knowledgeable and active modeler running for office (VP District V). I'm backing him in every way I can. When Tony Stillman is elected things will start to get fixed. We may have a couple of well qualified people running for President also. I would rather see just one as a 3 way race historically favors the incumbent. Mean while I'll continue to present to the best of my ability exactly what kind of people we have running the show at present so those few that are capable of mailing a ballot to the right address (pre addressed/postage paid) will have some insight in selecting a candidate above and beyond what they can get in the sugar coated briefs that will appear in Model Aviation. -- Red Scholefield AMA District V To ignore the facts does not change the facts! > Rather than sit here (and elsewhere) bitchin'! Run for office! If elected > then maybe you can fix what's broke! Or at least get the fix started. And > if you're not elected, you can always blame the members for not voting for > you. Either way, perhaps it will allow you to stop bitchin' here all the > time! For what it's worth, Red, I am happy to read about all this, in this forum. I admit that I don't read all of the AMA magazine each month. I almost never read the minutes of past meetings. I don't fly as much as I used to, I still poke a few holes now and then but don't belong to any club. I don't get the gossip from the old boys at the flight line anymore. I am, however, still an active AMA member. I think the news we get from Model Aviation each month carry the views of the writers and the AMA higher-ups. If nothing else, this forum is just the place to vent and/or inform. Granted, the occasional squabble does occur here but that will always be the case, as is should. Freedom, even in Usenet. I say keep it up. John Krueger AMA 572030 District V > We have a very qualified, knowledgeable and active modeler running for > office (VP District V). I'm backing him in every way I can. When Tony [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > you. Either way, perhaps it will allow you to stop bitchin' here all the > > time! Sorry, I'm in District VII Ooops. > For what it's worth, Red, > I am happy to read about all this, in this forum. [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > the > > > time! Interesting response! Especially since it doesn't even come close to reflecting your statements in another forum on the same question. And I quote: "Do you really want to see another 74 year old EC member? I think not. We need to see some younger people take the leadership roles. Use the older members as consultants, volunteers, whatever that will take advantage of any specific skills for the benefit of the AMA. Red S." Will the real Red Scholefield please stand up? > We have a very qualified, knowledgeable and active modeler running for > office (VP District V). I'm backing him in every way I can. When Tony [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > you. Either way, perhaps it will allow you to stop bitchin' here all the > > time! Maybe someone with some time to waste will explain it to you. Question: Why don't I run? Answer 1. I think we need younger people getting involved with the AMA management. Answer 2. To support 1, I am throwing my support to Tony Stillman for VP District V. You must be getting desperate to find things to argue about. Red S. > Interesting response! Especially since it doesn't even come close to > reflecting your statements in another forum on the same question. And I [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > the > > > time! >Maybe someone with some time to waste will explain it to you. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >> Interesting response! Especially since Heck Red; No one has the time to try to explain anything to CO Jones. He is far too much in the dim lights to understand any thing outside his arm-pits. I don't have the time to add all my favorite descriptions of the individual, much less the time to explain to a tree stump. You know stumps do rot and wither away after a time, if one just walks around them. > >Maybe someone with some time to waste will explain it to you. > > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > much less the time to explain to a tree stump. You know stumps do rot and > wither away after a time, if one just walks around them. Been looking in the mirror again? Ah! Horses a.s! We did not miss you! Back to save the AMA from the evil empire? > Heck Red; > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > much less the time to explain to a tree stump. You know stumps do rot and > wither away after a time, if one just walks around them. Not looking for an argument! Just curious at the differences in responses. Maybe if you'd quit looking for a fight all the time you might see the pure innocence of some posts here! But then again, maybe not! > Maybe someone with some time to waste will explain it to you. > [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > the > > > > time! Here you have it folks. Another purely innocent post by C.O. Jones (he he he) > Not looking for an argument! Just curious at the differences in responses. > Maybe if you'd quit looking for a fight all the time you might see the pure [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > > Interesting response! Especially since it doesn't even come close to > > > reflecting your statements in another forum on the same question. And I > We have a very qualified, knowledgeable and active modeler running for > office (VP District V). I'm backing him in every way I can. When Tony [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > paid) will have some insight in selecting a candidate above and beyond what > they can get in the sugar coated briefs that will appear in Model Aviation. Most folks do not bother, or just check off the name of the incumbent, because the AMA is to them, as it is to me, just a mandatory means to an end. Something you have to do to be able to fly at just about any club. Yes, many retired folk with seemingly nothing better to do than to get deeply involved with the politics of their hobby look down upon the rest of us who do not bother to read "minutes". I take a Libertarian stance here. The AMA should be a membership that provides you with hobby specific insurance at a competetive rate, maybe a yearly newsletter, and than GETS OUT OF YOUR WAY. Let locals get together and take care of their own issues and organize their affairs in their own manner, or does nobody trust them to do so? The AMA to me is a Big Government attitude. Big Brother Knows Best. It would have been much better off if it was barely seen. It's also very sad that they are the only game in town. 2 or 3 choices would be nice, competetion always improves things. > the AMA is to them, as it is to me, just a mandatory means to an >end. And as long as it remains that to you and the plurality of AMA members, it will always be the "big brother" you talk about. The only way to get things changed is to vote and complain consistently with factual gripes to your Dist. VP, the AMA Pres., and the EC. Your attitude is the Ostrich Syndrome. "If I stick my head in the sand, the problem will go away." Dr.1 Driver "There's a Hun in the sun!" I disagree Dr. That is certainly one way to get change but certainly not the only way! Change was in the offing once before. Remember? Then the SFA was run into the ground. But for awhile there, the AMA was sweating. But it could happen again. Maybe UMA and maybe something else. Then again, maybe the membership will finally get fed up and simply start to quit! In large numbers. Kind of like what's happened with the IMAA! Only worse! No! It's not the only way. Unless of course you believe that the AMA must survive for the hobby to survive. In which case I would count you as one of the hopeless souls. Chuck > > the AMA is to them, as it is to me, just a mandatory means to an > >end. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Dr.1 Driver > "There's a Hun in the sun!" If you just scratch the surface of the AMA then you will never get the full impact. Yes we complain and gripe but, the facts are that the AMA is much more than the average modeler thinks it is. I've been a member off and on for 30+ years. Only recently have I really taken an interest in trying to learn what it's all about. Much more than I thought. I charge you to read your magazine all the way through. Read what the DVP are saying. Read what the Pres is saying. Go to the AMA website for heavens sake and READ. Then shall your eyes be opened!!! Eddie Fulmer AMA 63713 PS VOTE! If you don't vote you don't have the right to complain!!! Hurray for you Eddie! I too have been a member (with a 15 year off period) for 50 years. There is so much that the AMA has done for us that the average person has no idea. We WOULD NOT have model aviation without them. It would have been outlawed in most states many years ago. The lobbying, the Frequencies, the flying site assistance, the INSURANCE (which gives local government leaders and property owners the warm fuzzies!) and a damned good magazine. I ask you...this isn't worth $.16 a day? If you're that cheap and negative, you just need to go participate in something cheap like golf, bowling, fishing, boating, skydiving, etc. Did I say cheap? Good grief people! Model aviation is about the least expensive hobby/sport I can think of these days! > If you just scratch the surface of the AMA then you will never get the full > impact. Yes we complain and gripe but, the facts are that the AMA is much more [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > be opened!!! Eddie Fulmer AMA 63713 PS VOTE! If you don't vote you > don't have the right to complain!!! Good grief > people! Model aviation is about the least expensive hobby/sport I can think > of these days! Which equates to modelers are about the cheapest when it comes to any adult hobby or sport. :-) A group of hunters will get together, come up with 5 grand a piece and buy some hunting land, pay $250/year dues and think they have a great deal for the few weeks of hunting season. Try getting a 250 member club to come up with $500,000 to buy their own field . . . . . which in some parts of the country they can enjoy any day, every day 52 weeks a year. RS > Hurray for you Eddie! I too have been a member (with a 15 year off period) > for 50 years. There is so much that the AMA has done for us that the average [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > you > > don't have the right to complain!!! I will make a even trade with you.......I will give you a choice: my fishing rods and reels or my bowling balls.....for your r/c gear and planes. OOOOOOOOpppppppppSSSS....did I say EVEN. You might be owing me some money... ;-) My point exactly! > > Hurray for you Eddie! I too have been a member (with a 15 year off period) > > for 50 years. There is so much that the AMA has done for us that the average [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > and planes. OOOOOOOOpppppppppSSSS....did I say EVEN. You might be > owing me some money... ;-) >Most folks do not bother, or just check off the name of the incumbent, >because the AMA is to them, as it is to me, just a mandatory means to an >end. Something you have to do to be able to fly at just about any club. The AMA >should be a membership that provides you with hobby specific insurance at a >competetive rate, maybe a yearly newsletter, and than GETS OUT OF YOUR WAY. >Let locals get together and take care of their own issues and organize their >affairs in their own manner, or does nobody trust them to do so? The AMA to >me is a Big Government attitude. Big Brother Knows Best. It would have been >much better off if it was barely seen. You may well be correct about "most folks' however your logic regresses from there. >>>"Yes,many retired folk with seemingly nothing better to do than to get deeply >involved with the politics of their hobby look down upon the rest of us who >do not bother to read "minutes".<<<< Maybe its because the old guys (I am one) have seen so many organizations from the US of A right down to their churches and hobby clubs succumb to the active -- those that are interested in the politics -- and therefore the old guys dream of leaving something better. >>>" I take a Libertarian stance here."<<< Is that how the Libertarians always do? They never took any stance when the party was looking strong and the Federal Big Brother took their Leader down with a sham (IMO) Income Tax charge. End of Libertarians. Everyone has a motive be it good or bad. The active usually see profit and power in any group while the lazy rather let the others do the chores. Then when the water gets hot, the lazy yells for "someone else" to cool things down. >>>>" It's also very sad that they are the >only game in town. 2 or 3 choices would be nice, competetion always improves >things.<<<< Well, your opportunity is at the door. Go for it. While I don't remember the words -- someone will, but the story goes about "THEY CAME and took the XXX" Never bothered me so I said nothing. Goes on to They took all the various types yet I never said anything. At last "Then they came for me and there was no one left to say anything" You youngsters may well experience that very thing right here in this US of A. OTOH being involved in things, whatever it may be, can stir the pot and keep minds active. |
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