Hi,
Does anyone knows if it exist a system to synchronize the two glow engines
of a
twin (like a p38).
It must not be Master/Slave based because, the slave may fail, and the
master will not idle in this case.
At least, the system should stop the remaining engine if one fail;
I imagine a system with optical sensor to get the rpm of each propeller.
Thanks
Regards
Hugh Prescott - 09 Jul 2004 14:52 GMT
Greetings
Something like this was published in a magazine several years ago.
Sorry don't recall which one.
RCM would be the most likely. Might try their web site first.
As I recall it only synced above half throttle and sensed it you lost an
engine and allowed you to retain control of you good engine. Was built with
common DIP chips and standard componets.
Will look at work where my files are later today. I need to build one for a
Britian Norman Islander that I am starting construction of soon.
Hugh
> Hi,
> Does anyone knows if it exist a system to synchronize the two glow engines
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Thanks
> Regards
MLD - 09 Jul 2004 18:27 GMT
Hi,
If you think it could be RCM, in which country ?
I look on google and theses "R.C.M" magazine exists in many countries. So
which one ?
Any information will be really appreciated !!!
Regard
MLD
> Greetings
>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> > Thanks
> > Regards
Fubar of The HillPeople - 10 Jul 2004 03:05 GMT
RCM= RC Modeler

Signature
Dan
AMA605992
KE6ERB
http://www.fubar1.net
"I've heard the screams of the vegetables..."
Take out the "trash" to reply
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> > > Thanks
> > > Regards
Gene - 09 Jul 2004 15:47 GMT
>Hi,
>Does anyone knows if it exist a system to synchronize the two glow engines
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>Thanks
>Regards
It is not necessary to synchronize the engines to the degree you want.
I have three twins and here is what to do. Adjust each engine to rich
side of peak about 200 rpms. Richen the weaker engine to the other
engines rpms. All of mine are within 200rpms of each other anyway
and I don't have to do this proceedure although I check it each flying
sesson. You will not notice even if one engine is acting up to even
1000 rpms if your speed is high. If this is your first twin,
remember, engine out cannot be corrected with ailerons. Practice
using the rudder. An engine out is a yaw problem not a roll problem.
If you have and engine out, keep wings level with the rudder, turn
only towards the live engine if possible and keep plenty of speed up
or your rudder control will not save you.
Good Luck
Gene
C.O.Jones - 11 Jul 2004 22:43 GMT
Don't you mean richen the "stronger" (higher RPM) engine to match the
weaker?
> It is not necessary to synchronize the engines to the degree you want.
> I have three twins and here is what to do. Adjust each engine to rich
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Good Luck
> Gene
Gene - 12 Jul 2004 02:15 GMT
>Don't you mean richen the "stronger" (higher RPM) engine to match the
>weaker?
Yes I did mean that. Thank's for finding my mistake. Sorry.
Gene
Hugh Prescott - 09 Jul 2004 20:12 GMT
Greetings
Just found the article in my files at work.
Title: Electronic Sync System For Twins
Author: Joe Utasi
Published in Model Aviation, October 1982
Printed circut boards were avialable form Jomar Products at the time of
publication.
Would be simple to layout in Eagle PCB designer and do a toner transfer to
copper clad and etch. It is single sided, no surface mount, no
microprocessor design.
Requires the high throttle pulse to be a long pulse. Draws 16-17 ma at 4.8
volts. Uses two Hall effect sensors and magnets in spinner backplate. Sync's
engines RPM not crank shaft position. Cuts in at 2500 RPM.
Circut board would be aprox size of a modern receiver and just plugs in to
receiver throttle channel and then plug each throttle servo into the sync
board.
Article has a nice discription of how the circut works and mods / tuning you
can make.
This was one of several electronic projects that Joe developed and had
published in MA. Don't know if Joe or Jomar are still around.
Hugh
Declan Barry - 09 Jul 2004 10:51 GMT
Hi Hugh..
Would there be any chance of obtaining a copy of the documents from
you? I'd be interested in the details of the design.
I actually have one of these that I purchased from Jomar a while back.
Haven't tried it yet but hope to put it on a test bed soon.
There isn't really a lot of documentation with it to explain the in's
and out's of the product and I would like to sort out the starting
sequence given that on starting the slave engine, the throttle is wide
open. I'd like to sort out some form of manual operation of the
throttle with a spring actuator to allow the operator to initally
start the slave in a more gentle manner than flat out for a few
seconds. Those few seconds can mean the difference between having
parts of you body intact and not having it intact
I'm looking down the line at building a De Havilland Mosquito and
hopefully this is where the engine Sync would come in.
Regards
Declan Barry
dpbarry@barryweb.co.uk
http://rcmodels.barryweb.co.uk
>Greetings
>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
>Hugh
Regards
Technical
Flyinglindy - 10 Jul 2004 12:40 GMT
Joe sold his company years ago and it is now called EMS. I believe that his
sync was based on master/slave but I have never actually used one on any of my
multi-motor projects Have an on-line read....
http://www.emsjomar.com/default.aspx
Hugh Prescott - 11 Jul 2004 04:02 GMT
Just checked the EMS JOMAR site and the sync box is listed.
Looking at the photo of it's circut board it appears to have been converted
to surface mount componets.
No indication of a discription of the circut and custom mods.
Hugh
> Joe sold his company years ago and it is now called EMS. I believe that his
> sync was based on master/slave but I have never actually used one on any of my
> multi-motor projects Have an on-line read....
>
> http://www.emsjomar.com/default.aspx
Elmshoot - 11 Jul 2004 07:11 GMT
I've used one it works fine, I have my second one about to go into another
twin.
Sparky
MLD - 11 Jul 2004 10:26 GMT
Can you confirm that if the slave engine stop for instance, the master
engine is not affected ?
I imagine so, because of the Master/Slave principle.
MLD
> I've used one it works fine, I have my second one about to go into another
> twin.
> Sparky
Elmshoot - 11 Jul 2004 16:48 GMT
>Can you confirm that if the slave engine stop for instance, the master
>engine is not affected ?
Yes, as another poster said. If the master sags the slave will follow if the
slave sags you will get a yaw from asymetrical power as well as you will hear
the engines go out of sync.
What is neat and I know it will work but have never tried it that as long as
you use the same props on the engines the engines DO NOT have to be the same
displacement . A good example is using a .40 as the master and using a .46 as
the slave all spinning a 10x6 or similar prop.
It is a nice system it does take a little time to set up but it is
trouble/maintenance free once it is set up.
Sparky
C.O.Jones - 11 Jul 2004 22:52 GMT
There was a system many moons ago. Don't recall who made it.
It involved mounting small button magnets on the back plate of the spinners.
Then positioning a hall effect sensor (mag tape head is one example) behind
each spinner so that it sensed the passage of the magnets. This provides an
RPM reading from each engine. It then went to a control box which
controlled the two engine servos to match the RPMs. There was a master
slave relationship with the slower engine being the master. That way the
system would not constantly try to bring the slower engine up to the faster
engines RPM when at full throttle.
There was also a fail safe mode. In the event of an engine failure, the
system would sense the RPM having dropped below a predetermined level and
disconnect the slave feature. Thus allowing the remaining engine to
continue under normal control.
I seem to recall that price and the fact that it was a novelty rather than a
necessity kept sales too low to stay in business.
> Hi,
> Does anyone knows if it exist a system to synchronize the two glow engines
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Thanks
> Regards
Paul McIntosh - 11 Jul 2004 23:30 GMT
I believe it was Jomar.
--
Paul McIntosh
http://www.rc-bearings.com
> There was a system many moons ago. Don't recall who made it.
>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> > Thanks
> > Regards
Elmshoot - 12 Jul 2004 01:00 GMT
>I seem to recall that price and the fact that it was a novelty rather than a
>necessity kept sales too low to stay in business.
Its the same novelity as high quality servos vs. sport servos. The system works
ok but when you hear a twin in full sync ALL the time. You will agree that it
is a very nice system to have. It is a low sale item but EMS still has them.
Sparky
MLD - 24 May 2005 06:42 GMT
Hi All,
A french engineer is doing the system I wanted last year :D ! (An
much more, sequencer for gears, flaps, servo slower ... etc ...)
It's not a master-slave system, but it would synchronise engines b
slowing down the faster, and accelerate the slower. And the option t
stop the surviving engine automaticaly.
The system is configured by a tool under windows freely downloadable.
I don't try it yet. The developper is looking for beta testers.
See at the bottom of http://servomax.forumactif.com/ for englis
version
ML
--
ML
Ron van Sommeren - 24 May 2005 12:36 GMT
No synchronizing problems when flying an electric twin. Two _brushless_
motors controlled by one controller, will always be in PERFECT sync.
Vriendelijke groeten ;-) Ron van Sommeren
near Nijmegen, the Netherlands
----- Original Message -----
From: "MLD" <MLD.1piycc@rcgroups.com>
Newsgroups: rec.models.rc.air
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 7:42 AM
Subject: Re: Synchronizing engines on a twin
> Hi All,
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> MLD
The Natural Philosopher - 24 May 2005 14:02 GMT
> No synchronizing problems when flying an electric twin. Two _brushless_
> motors controlled by one controller, will always be in PERFECT sync.
...provided they start at all...
;-)
Ron van Sommeren - 25 May 2005 00:31 GMT
> > No synchronizing problems when flying an electric twin. Two _brushless_
> > motors controlled by one controller, will always be in PERFECT sync.
>
> ...provided they start at all...
> ;-)
A lot of twin combo's do start. According to the rules they shouldn't, but
they do, provided there's little spread in the motor and prop parameters.
Bastards them is ;-)
Vriendelijke groeten ;-) Ron van Sommeren
near Nijmegen, the Netherlands
The Natural Philosopher - 25 May 2005 11:52 GMT
>>>No synchronizing problems when flying an electric twin. Two _brushless_
>>>motors controlled by one controller, will always be in PERFECT sync.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Vriendelijke groeten ;-) Ron van Sommeren
> near Nijmegen, the Netherlands
I suppose if they both don't start, they are still perfectly synchronized?
;-)
Ron van Sommeren - 25 May 2005 12:07 GMT
> I suppose if they both don't start, they are still perfectly synchronized?
;-)
I rest my case, sync or bust ;-)
Vriendelijke groeten, Ron van Sommeren
near Nijmegen, the Netherlands
int. E-fly-in & diy motor meeting
http://home.hetnet.nl/~ronvans/