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Model Forum / Radio Controlled / Air Models / July 2004



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Oh, oh. Li Poly overcharged?

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Wan - 12 Jul 2004 17:37 GMT
I was charging my 3S 1500 mAh, 11.1 V Kokam battery and had to leave.
When I returned to resume charging it ended with a 13.3V  when it
should have been 12.60 V or so. It also checked out the same with a
volt meter. I should mention that it was unintentionally charged at
14.30 volts.

The battery is bloated in appearance but not hot to the touch. I put
the battery into a thick glass baking covered dish.

I wonder if the battery can be trusted for use or is it just toast?

Wan
Martin X. Moleski, SJ - 12 Jul 2004 17:49 GMT
>I was charging my 3S 1500 mAh, 11.1 V Kokam battery and had to leave.
>When I returned to resume charging it ended with a 13.3V  when it
>should have been 12.60 V or so. It also checked out the same with a
>volt meter. I should mention that it was unintentionally charged at
>14.30 volts.

>The battery is bloated in appearance but not hot to the touch. I put
>the battery into a thick glass baking covered dish.

>I wonder if the battery can be trusted for use or is it just toast?

Seems to me you've just become a "test pilot" for the
group.

If it doesn't blow up in the next few hours, and if it stays
charged, go fly it and see what happens.

The next time you charge it, it might be wise to do it
outdoors and outside of the aircraft.

Then let us know how it all turned out.  :o)

I wouldn't charge it indoors ever again, even if it passes
its test flight and recharge.  YMMV.

DIsclaimer: I have never used any LiPo batteries.  I'm just
an interested bystander well outside of the range of exploding
battery packs.  

                    Marty
Red Scholefield - 12 Jul 2004 17:53 GMT
Bloated = bad, as in toast!  You are fortunate it wasn't scrambled eggs.
--
Red S.
Red's R/C Battery Clinic
http://www.rcbatteryclinic.com
Check us out for "revolting" information.

> The battery is bloated in appearance but not hot to the touch.
> I wonder if the battery can be trusted for use or is it just toast?
>
> Wan
Abel Pranger - 12 Jul 2004 19:10 GMT
>I was charging my 3S 1500 mAh, 11.1 V Kokam battery and had to leave.
>When I returned to resume charging it ended with a 13.3V  when it
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>Wan

Hi Wan-
My newsreader shows two responses so far, from Red and Marty, both
pretty sharp guys but here with opposing views.  FWIW, here's my shot
at a tiebreaker vote:  Apply a load (like a 10 ohm resistor) to
completely discharge it, puncture the poly envelopes of the bloated
cells while tryng to avoid contact between the knife and the envelope
contents, soak them in water that you have added some table salt to
for a few hours to neutralize them, then throw 'em in the trash can
(they are not considered hazardous waste like NiCd's).  They're
expensive I know, but the risk of fire from a damaged or even slightly
suspicious pack is just too real to overlook.  Every incident adds to
the type of bad press that could get them banned by for our use by AMA
or by real authorities.

Abel
Martin X. Moleski, SJ - 12 Jul 2004 21:13 GMT
>>I was charging my 3S 1500 mAh, 11.1 V Kokam battery and had to leave.
>>When I returned to resume charging it ended with a 13.3V  when it
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>My newsreader shows two responses so far, from Red and Marty, both
>pretty sharp guys but here with opposing views.

I defer to Red's advice.  He's an expert.  I'm not.

> ...  They're
>expensive I know, but the risk of fire from a damaged or even slightly
>suspicious pack is just too real to overlook.

Agreed 110%.

I proposed an experiment that might let Wan get some flights
from the pack.  But LiPo's have a reputation for starting
fires--especially after they puff up.  :o(

                    Marty
Roger - 13 Jul 2004 00:37 GMT
Mine didn't even puff up or get hot. They just spontaneously combusted
after 2 hours and 15 munutes of sitting, unconnected to anything, in an
airconditioned room. Nobody seems to know why, either.
Until they get some kind of track record on these things, I am done with
electrics. I followed the instructions, used the right charger, at the
right voltage and current, and ended up losing a $24 battery pack, $40
reciever, and 2 micro servos. All that survived was the ESC, because it
wasn't in the airplane at the time.
Expensive lesson.

>>>I was charging my 3S 1500 mAh, 11.1 V Kokam battery and had to leave.
>>>When I returned to resume charging it ended with a 13.3V  when it
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
>                     Marty
Wan - 13 Jul 2004 02:01 GMT
> >I was charging my 3S 1500 mAh, 11.1 V Kokam battery and had to leave.
> >When I returned to resume charging it ended with a 13.3V  when it
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> Abel

Abel,

We certainly don't want any authorities banning the Li Po batteries. I
have heard from this group that Li Polies are banned from a club
field. A bit of paranoia! Matter of fact, I sold my NiMH batteries to
a member of that club where Li Po batteries are banned.

The LHS where I purchased a replacement  tried to call a "Battery
Place" to  see if they  would  dispose of my battery, but no one
answers the phone.

Now it's sitting outside on a concrete slab, as I've told Red in a
private message. I thought about burying it in the dirt. Is this a
good idea?

Wan
Abel Pranger - 13 Jul 2004 03:42 GMT
>Abel,
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>Wan

Hi Wan-
"That" club is one I belong to, and I bought your NiMH packs.  
The safe method of disposal I outlined came from an article on the FMA
Direct web page, if I have recalled the pertinant points correctly.
If Fred Marks doesn't know the right way to dispose of damaged LiPo
cells, then I guess we're all in deep yogurt!
Chemistry at the undergrad level is something in the distant past for
me, but Fred's advice seemed sound.  Your precautions re keeping the
suspect pact in covered ovenware or on a slab of concrete  seem like
sound and sufficient precautions to me.   Why not just give them a
stab while they are immersed in saline solution in your ovenware?
When they fail catastrophically, they don't explode, they just emit
hot gasses that could ignite something.  .  Absent anything that will
burn in close proximity, and not many things burn under water, I don't
think there is any significant safety risk to you in prepping them for
disposal that way.  Probably a lot more responsible than just tossing
them in a dumpster somewhere too, as I expect is the usual way people
get rid of dead LiPo's from their laptops and cell phones.

Abel
Wan - 13 Jul 2004 13:21 GMT
> >Abel,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
> Abel

Hi Abel, Now I remember you. I just discarded your envelope for the
check you sent for the NiMH batteries.

The battery is still out there and I will do as you suggested. It's
the prudent thing.

Thanks,
Wan
Eb - 14 Jul 2004 20:47 GMT
I think they place still burning flares in metal coffee cans half full
of sand to prevent them combusting nearby flamable objects.

So I suppose you could keep the battery in a metal can/bucket of sand
until you find the appropriate means of disposal.

I have heard that you can puncture the bags and soak them in salt
water to neutralize them.

>Now it's sitting outside on a concrete slab, as I've told Red in a
>private message. I thought about burying it in the dirt. Is this a
>good idea?
>
>Wan
Mike Norton - 15 Jul 2004 00:43 GMT
Discharge, puncture and soak in salt water works well.  Discharge them
first, or you will get arcs and sparks when you puncture the bag.

I had some packs that had been damaged badly by running them down too far.
They held less than 1/2 capacity.  It worried me to keep around a damaged
dangerous object, so I used them as test articles.

1) I shorted a pack.  The leads turned red, and the solder came off the
tabs.  Some swelling, but not much.  This is much like what happens when you
short a NiCad pack.
2) I drilled several cells without discharging them.  Some white-hot sparks
came out, but nothing else happened.  It ruined the drill bit.
3) The rest I discharged with a 1K resistor across each 3-cell pack until
there was no voltage across the resistor.  I did have some problem
puncturing the cells, so I turned to a 2x4 and a sharpened cold chisel.

I did not overcharge a pack.  I expect that this would create a fire,
because you would put a lot of energy into it that has no place to go but
into heat.  With the flexible pouch, I don't think an explosion is possible.

I did not heat a pack to 180 deg. F (80 C) as could happen on the front seat
of a car.  The chemistry of the current cells says that the cell will start
to decompose at at 160F or so.

In other words, I think the safety issue is overblown.  There are three
rules I think are important:

1) Charging is risky.  Chargers that automatically check the cell count can
be fooled, and chargers where you set the cell count can be mis-set.  Follow
the charger's instructions faithfully, but assume you can screw up.  Keep an
eye on the process, and don't charge on a flammable table.

2) Keep them in a place below 140 degrees or so.  Cool them off between
flights.  (I use a small 12V fan while field charging.)

3) There is probably some sort of mechanical damage that a crash might cause
that would make a major internal short.  Therefore, a fire can happen after
a crash.  From what I have seen, if you throw the whole thing into a bucket
of water, the cell cannot generate enough heat to make an interesting fire.
Otherwise, observe until the crashed pack is cool to the touch everywhere.

Now, go fly and have fun.  Remember - glow fuel, gasoline and propellors are
dangerous when used by the ignorant or the foolish.

-- Mike Norton

> I think they place still burning flares in metal coffee cans half full
> of sand to prevent them combusting nearby flamable objects.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> >
> >Wan
The Natural Philosopher - 13 Jul 2004 01:42 GMT
> I was charging my 3S 1500 mAh, 11.1 V Kokam battery and had to leave.
> When I returned to resume charging it ended with a 13.3V  when it
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> I wonder if the battery can be trusted for use or is it just toast?

Its more sausage than toast.

Either way is probably shagged.

> Wan
MLB - 13 Jul 2004 10:21 GMT
Hi! Fry!

Here is a nice link. You can see some interesting pictures of LiPo
overcharged or mischarged. This is a french site but the info is still
valuable.

http://klaudius.free.fr/lipo.htm

Have a nice fry party (sorry, Fly party?)

MLB
marc.lebret@wanadoo.fr

>> I was charging my 3S 1500 mAh, 11.1 V Kokam battery and had to leave.
>> When I returned to resume charging it ended with a 13.3V  when it
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>> Wan
Wan - 13 Jul 2004 20:36 GMT
> Hi! Fry!
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> MLB
> marc.lebret@wanadoo.fr

MLB, The photos appear frightening. Were the first  three set up on a
foam box for some kind of test? They seemed to be expecting the flare
up with those sequential pictures.

The person with the crash photos must have mega bucks invested in
batteries.

Thanks for passing it along, Hope it doesn't discourage anyone from Li
Poly batteries.

Wan

> >> I was charging my 3S 1500 mAh, 11.1 V Kokam battery and had to leave.
> >> When I returned to resume charging it ended with a 13.3V  when it
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> >
> >> Wan
John Privett - 14 Jul 2004 01:50 GMT
> MLB, The photos appear frightening. Were the first  three set up on a
> foam box for some kind of test? They seemed to be expecting the flare
> up with those sequential pictures.

The text before this explains that a significant over-charge risks
destruction of the battery.  It then states that the pictures show what
happens when a cell is significantly overcharged.  I guess it was setup
deliberately.

I'm sure the rest were *not* deliberate though!
Signature

John P. - who flies on Epsom Downs, UK.
http://www.flyrc.org.uk/
I'm sick of spam, so replace 'nojunkthanks' with 'john' if you want me
to read any e-mailed reply!

Wan - 14 Jul 2004 17:52 GMT
> > MLB, The photos appear frightening. Were the first  three set up on a
> > foam box for some kind of test? They seemed to be expecting the flare
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> I'm sure the rest were *not* deliberate though!

John,

Thanks for the guess on on how the first three photos were set-ups. I
thought as much but I could make out only a few words in French.

I want to compliment  you on your web site. It's beautifully
constrstructed. If we could all be as lucky to have a flying site as
yours. I will look at some more of  the wonderful airplanes later.

Meanwhile, I'll go and bury my battery pack since I have not seen
commentary for not doing so.

Wan
John Privett - 15 Jul 2004 00:34 GMT
>> The text before this explains that a significant over-charge risks
>> destruction of the battery.  It then states that the pictures show
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Meanwhile, I'll go and bury my battery pack since I have not seen
> commentary for not doing so.

Thanks for the comments Wan.  To be honest the website is well overdue for a
major update/re-write.  But it's one of those things that never quite gets
to the top of the "to do" list!
Signature

John P. - who flies on Epsom Downs, UK.
http://www.flyrc.org.uk/
I'm sick of spam, so replace 'nojunkthanks' with 'john' if you want me
to read any e-mailed reply!

Icrashrc - 15 Jul 2004 04:16 GMT
>> MLB, The photos appear frightening. Were the first  three set up on a
>> > foam box for some kind of test? They seemed to be expecting the flare
>> > up with those sequential pictures.

These pictures look like frames taken from a video i've seen. He intentionaly
destroyed the battery to see what would happen. He had to really abuse it on
the charger to make it burn. The original video is somewhere on ezone.

remove my-wife to reply   :-)
The Natural Philosopher - 15 Jul 2004 11:41 GMT
>>>MLB, The photos appear frightening. Were the first  three set up on a
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> destroyed the battery to see what would happen. He had to really abuse it on
> the charger to make it burn. The original video is somewhere on ezone.

Yes. for full info scan the batteries and chargers forum

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=129

and try 'LIPO fire' as a search string.

> remove my-wife to reply   :-)
Wan - 13 Jul 2004 13:50 GMT
> > I was charging my 3S 1500 mAh, 11.1 V Kokam battery and had to leave.
> > When I returned to resume charging it ended with a 13.3V  when it
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Either way is probably shagged.

TNP, You have a very good sense of humor. I was so glad to hear from
Abel who bought my NiMH batteries that I hadn't read yours.

Thanks for making any problem entertaining! BTW I liked sausage more
than toast.

Wan
MJC - 13 Jul 2004 13:57 GMT
I think it's a good bet that any battery that ACTUALLY CHANGES SHAPE after a
charge has been turned into explosive hazardous waste.

MJC

> I was charging my 3S 1500 mAh, 11.1 V Kokam battery and had to leave.
> When I returned to resume charging it ended with a 13.3V  when it
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Wan
Abel Pranger - 14 Jul 2004 18:06 GMT
>I think it's a good bet that any battery that ACTUALLY CHANGES SHAPE after a
>charge has been turned into explosive hazardous waste.

They are neither explosive nor are they hazardous waste when they are
ready to be disposed of.
Li poly batteries are getting enough of a bad rap from such myths to
keep the safety nazis  revved up to get more rules in place to protect
us and the world from the terrible consequences of allowing us to
exercise our own inferior judgment and sense of responsibility.

Abel
 
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