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Model Forum / Radio Controlled / Air Models / August 2004



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Shallow AMA members/complainers

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Efulmer - 13 Jul 2004 23:40 GMT
I have been a member of the AMA off and on for 30+ years.  I used to think it
was just for the insurance.  And did up until about 3-4 years ago.  If you read
up what goes on in the AMA you will find out that there is much more than you
think. It seems to me that the ones who do the most complaining, usually, are
the ones that don't know what they are talking about.  I don't pay much
attention to them just as they won't bother reading all of my post. (most
likely) If you think AMA is about nothing but insurance you are dead wrong.
However that is what most people think it's about.  I advise you to read your
AMA magazine from cover to cover. Go to the website and look around a while.
Is the AMA perfect?  Absolutely not!!!   But it's way ahead of anything else
you can get for anywhere near the money.  Oh and BTW, you won't fly at my/our
club without it.   Eddie Fulmer   AMA 63713
Frank Costa - 14 Jul 2004 01:19 GMT
> I have been a member of the AMA off and on for 30+ years.  I used to think it
> was just for the insurance.  And did up until about 3-4 years ago.  If you read
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> you can get for anywhere near the money.  Oh and BTW, you won't fly at my/our
> club without it.   Eddie Fulmer   AMA 63713

Since you are up to date on the AMA's activities, maybe you can answer a
question, because I'm curious (and I honestly don't know the answer). What
is thier reputaion for honoring claims? Is there a stat somewhere on the
ratio of claims to denials? Really it comes down to this, because the
insurance is the main draw, how good are they after the accident? I have two
complaints, and one isn't their fault. First, I wish there were viable
alternatives. A monopoly is never good, never. Second, is this magazine.
It's not very good, and if I could lower my membership fee by opting out of
the rag, I would do it in a heartbeat.
Red Scholefield - 14 Jul 2004 02:19 GMT
Have you ever seen anyone post on this forum that they were or know of
someone that was denied a claim?  We have had two claims in our club - both
resulted from the claimants causing the accident. One individual was
notorious for starting the plane while directly in front of it and then
hugging the prop. It bit him and the AMA paid the medical that his own
insurance didn't cover. The other incident was a guy breaking his own
windshield when he was operating the glider winch (operated from same car
battery) for a novice and wanted to give him a thrill by holding down the
switch.

RS

> > I have been a member of the AMA off and on for 30+ years.  I used to think
> it
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> It's not very good, and if I could lower my membership fee by opting out of
> the rag, I would do it in a heartbeat.
Frank Costa - 14 Jul 2004 18:18 GMT
> Have you ever seen anyone post on this forum that they were or know of
> someone that was denied a claim?

No I haven't, I was just asking.

>We have had two claims in our club - both
> resulted from the claimants causing the accident. One individual was
> notorious for starting the plane while directly in front of it and then
> hugging the prop. It bit him and the AMA paid the medical that his own
> insurance didn't cover. The other incident was a guy

What about folks with no primary insurance (i.e. young guys). Does the AMA
take care of the whole deal then? I honestly think that a club should have
an alternative, that is, if a member can provide proof that he has
sufficient insurance, then no AMA card required. I know of a local field
that goes this route. Pretty much everyone gets the AMA card anyway (easier)
but those few who have hangups with the organization are satisfied as well.
Make it a strict requirement, a hassle that only a few will take adcantage
of.  Just my .02. Otherwise, forced membership nationwide in one
organization to be able to fly at just about every club field just doesn't
sound right.
Lyman Slack - 14 Jul 2004 21:42 GMT
       I personally have NEVER heard a modeler IN PERSON say he was denied
a claim. My car was hit once way back in '77 and the modeler who paid my
repair bill said he was reimbursed by AMA.

Cheers --  \__________Lyman Slack_________/
                 \______AMA6430 IMAA1564___/
                   \____Flying Gators R/C______/
                     \__Gainesville FL _________/
  Visit my Web Site at: http://www.LymanSlack.com

> Have you ever seen anyone post on this forum that they were or know of
> someone that was denied a claim?
Roger - 14 Jul 2004 03:21 GMT
Nobody has ever found anyone whose claim was denied. It has always been
"Well, I heard that charlie's friend's brother-in-law's mechanic said
that the AMA refused to pay", but never first hand.
As someone elsewhere pointed out, most of those stories probably come
from someone who didn't go thru their primary insurance first and tried
to file directly with AMA....

>>I have been a member of the AMA off and on for 30+ years.  I used to think
>
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
> It's not very good, and if I could lower my membership fee by opting out of
> the rag, I would do it in a heartbeat.
Six_O'Clock_High - 14 Jul 2004 03:40 GMT
> > I have been a member of the AMA off and on for 30+ years.  I used to think
> it
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> It's not very good, and if I could lower my membership fee by opting out of
> the rag, I would do it in a heartbeat.

You are going to get several answers.

I have not been able to find anyone who had a proper claim against the AMA
denied.  I have heard of more than one who were told to contact their
homeowners FIRST.  THAT has been misreported as the AMA refusing to pay,
which it is NOT.  The AMA insurance is secondary.  That means that it pays
AFTER your homeowners or renters.  However, I know of more than one who has
filed a medical claim with no problem.

The magazine contains your (IRS required) 'newsletter'.  If it were sent
directly with no magazine, more dues money would be needed for the function.
There IS some discussion right now about trying to do something to make MA
more nearly self supporting.
jim breeyear - 14 Jul 2004 13:34 GMT
The more I read about this the more confused I get.

The way I see this is ; if your homeowners takes care of the bills then
you dont need AMA.

BUT AMA seems to control wether or not you can fly at a club field
because the old saw is "ya gotta have ama". It should be "ya gotta have
home owners insurance"

There used to be a box you could check if you wanted their magazine.
What broke down?

Whenever there is a great pile of money in one spot , watch out! ie;
Washington, DC

> I have been a member of the AMA off and on for 30+ years.  I used to think it
> was just for the insurance.  And did up until about 3-4 years ago.  
Mark Hansen - 14 Jul 2004 14:08 GMT
> The more I read about this the more confused I get.
>
> The way I see this is ; if your homeowners takes care of the bills then
> you dont need AMA.

Have you checked your home owner's policy limits? Are you sure that
no accident will ever push beyond those limits?

> BUT AMA seems to control wether or not you can fly at a club field
> because the old saw is "ya gotta have ama". It should be "ya gotta have
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>> I have been a member of the AMA off and on for 30+ years.  I used to think it
>> was just for the insurance.  And did up until about 3-4 years ago.  
jim breeyear - 14 Jul 2004 19:56 GMT
I actually called my insurance agent and  he had never heard about r/c
airplanes insurance and what would happen if I did file a claim but he
led me to believe it would be covered. He also never heard about the AMA
(Muncie). I have to dig deeper into this and get a reading. WHo knows,
maybe they wont cover me .....

>> The more I read about this the more confused I get.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>>> think it
>>> was just for the insurance.  And did up until about 3-4 years ago.  
Mark Hansen - 14 Jul 2004 20:07 GMT
> I actually called my insurance agent and  he had never heard about r/c
> airplanes insurance and what would happen if I did file a claim but he
> led me to believe it would be covered. He also never heard about the AMA
> (Muncie). I have to dig deeper into this and get a reading. WHo knows,
> maybe they wont cover me .....

Your home owner's policy will cover only to a point. For example, if
your policy allows for $350,000US liability coverage, then that is
all it will cover. If the accident causes more damage than that, you
will be on the hook for the balance - this is where the AMA coverage
would come in.
Doug McLaren - 15 Jul 2004 08:27 GMT
| > The more I read about this the more confused I get.
| >
| > The way I see this is ; if your homeowners takes care of the bills then
| > you dont need AMA.

In theory that's true.  But in practice, if the field you wish to fly
at is run by an AMA club, you'll probably need AMA to fly there,
period.

| Have you checked your home owner's policy limits? Are you sure that
| no accident will ever push beyond those limits?

Have you checked your AMA policy limits? Are you sure that no accident
will ever push beyond those limits?

You will never find an insurance policy that has limits so high that
nothing could possibly exceed them.  Even a trillion dollar policy
could be exceeded by certain really serious (and unlikely) accidents.

Liability insurance is generally (to the accountant, anyways) not
about responsibility or `doing the right thing' -- it's about
protecting your assets, or covering your a.s.  That's why clubs
require AMA insurance -- it's a CYA thing.

Well, that and the AMA requires it, and the AMA requires it (and
doesn't accept any other form of insurance) mostly to keep their
membership up.  The sooner people realize that the `AMA insurance
required' thing's main purpose is to maximize the AMA's membership
(and therefore financial and political power), the sooner they can get
past it -- they're not going to change it.  It's been too successful
for the AMA.

And as for the $2.5 million dollars of AMA insurance vs. your
homeonwer's $350k or so insurance, what about your auto insurance?
Most people don't even have over $100k of auto insurance (Texas
requires, what, $20k?), yet which is more likely to cause $100k of
damage/liability -- your car or your R/C plane?

(Of course, the answer is `your car, of course' -- which is why it's
insurance is so much more expensive, even for the low limit.  And of
course, everybody drives, so getting hurt in a car accident doesn't
make people `see dollar signs' quite the way getting hurt by a R/C
plane does.)

Now, some people do get lots of insurance not to protect their assets,
but out of a sense of responsibility.  And if you're one of these
people, that's nice of you.  But do be aware that you're in the
minority.  And if $2.5 million dollars of R/C insurance makes you like
a responsible person, that's good, but how much car insurance do you
have?

Signature

Doug McLaren, dougmc@frenzy.com                                     Hail Eris!

Red Scholefield - 14 Jul 2004 19:53 GMT
> The more I read about this the more confused I get.
>
> The way I see this is ; if your homeowners takes care of the bills then
> you dont need AMA.

But what about the guy flying at your field that has NO insurance?
The AMA covers you, the land owner, and the club itself.

> BUT AMA seems to control wether or not you can fly at a club field
> because the old saw is "ya gotta have ama". It should be "ya gotta have
> home owners insurance"

Have you ever considered the burden on club officers to make sure everyone
has some insurance  . . . . and is it still current? (you could show an
insurance policy and then after you have satisfied the club cancell it the
next day).  People would have insurance policies expiring through out the
year. With AMA ALL insurance is for the calendar year.

> There used to be a box you could check if you wanted their magazine.
> What broke down?

So few ever checked the box that they discontinued the practice. I would
have cost more to send the few that didn't want the magazine the required
AMA news letter.

> Whenever there is a great pile of money in one spot , watch out! ie;
> Washington, DC

Whenever there are a great number of people that simply don't see the big
picture, watch out !

Red S.
jim breeyear - 20 Jul 2004 15:23 GMT
> Have you ever considered the burden on club officers to make sure everyone
> has some insurance  . . . . and is it still current? (you could show an
> insurance policy and then after you have satisfied the club cancell it the
> next day).  People would have insurance policies expiring through out the
> year. With AMA ALL insurance is for the calendar year.

could be done with a summary insurance card like a AMA card. You wouldnt
need the whole policy.

> So few ever checked the box that they discontinued the practice. I would
> have cost more to send the few that didn't want the magazine the required
> AMA news letter.

There might be a message in that response. So you get wether you want it
or not. hmmm

> Whenever there are a great number of people that simply don't see the big
> picture, watch out !

Depends who is drawing the pictures.

My whole complaint on this Red is there seems to be no give on the clubs
side to insurance. Just because a club is registered with the AMA doesnt
mean that everything is peachy keen. I know that for a fact. Then there
are egos to contend with.

> Red S.
Red Scholefield - 20 Jul 2004 19:00 GMT
Right, and you are going to volunteer at your club to check 365 days a year
for different policy expiration dates?  Get real!  We can't even get people
to put a frequency marker on their antenna - you expect them to keep an
insurance card (one that is up to date) in their flight box?

As for no give on the clubs side to insurance. A club does not have to be an
AMA chartered club. There are alternatives but there apparantly are not
enough members in these clubs to pursue them.

Red Scholefield
AMA 951 Dist. V
Leader Member/CD

> > Have you ever considered the burden on club officers to make sure everyone
> > has some insurance  . . . . and is it still current? (you could show an
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> mean that everything is peachy keen. I know that for a fact. Then there
> are egos to contend with.
Abel Pranger - 20 Jul 2004 21:40 GMT
>Right, and you are going to volunteer at your club to check 365 days a year
>for different policy expiration dates?  Get real!  We can't even get people
>to put a frequency marker on their antenna - you expect them to keep an
>insurance card (one that is up to date) in their flight box?

Not going to get wrapped in this never-ending story in the big picture
sense, but this supposed insurmountable challenge to any alternative
for insurance other than AMA's is the most often cited.   Seldom
mentioned is the fact that many public entities that are owners of
flying site property will not allow the kind of monopoly that AMA
mandates, yet somehow clubs manage to operate there.   Who checks
insurance effectivity in those cases, or does the landowner even have
any need for such activity?   Back to the case for the AMA way and
assuming there really is some requirement to review everybody's
insurance, here's one little mouse hole in it:   Out of the $6K that
would not be sent to Muncie each year for a middling sized club of 100
members, couldn't a sufficient sum be allocated to compensate a
modeler's wife to keep a list of each member's insurance expiration
date?    The horseshoe nail thats holding that kingdom together is
getting pretty worn and rusty.
Now what's next in the list of reasons it has to be AMA or nothing?  I
promise not to get involved in any discussion that might ensue.
BTW, got that idea outta  your neck of the woods, Red.   Heck, you
guys got a modeler's wife to run D5 for nuthing, and you didn't even
have bother electing her.  
What a deal!

Abel
Dr1Driver - 20 Jul 2004 22:19 GMT
> many public entities that are owners of
>flying site property will not allow the kind of monopoly that AMA
>mandates, yet somehow clubs manage to operate there

Sorry, but most do, if only for assured insurance.  Our club was asked to
operate and "police" a site where there were many flyers, both AMA and non-AMA.
The site owner wanted the club to ensure that all flyers were AMA (for the
insurance), but did not want club membership to be required.  The logistics
were impossible to control.  At our controlled club field, no one who wasn't
AMA flew.  At this open site, anyone could come out at any time and fly, unless
a club member was there to check on the AMA membership.  We backed out after
about 3 months.  It was like getting Jack The Ripper on The Dating Game.

Face it, people, whether you like it or not requiring AMA insurance is the
easy, logical, cheap way to go.
Dr.1 Driver
"There's a Hun in the sun!"
Abel Pranger - 20 Jul 2004 23:21 GMT
>> many public entities that are owners of
>>flying site property will not allow the kind of monopoly that AMA
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>Dr.1 Driver
>"There's a Hun in the sun!"

DD-
Thanks for expanding my awareness.  I had never heard of assured
insurance before.  
I don't doubt that it was a problem at the site you mentioned, and I'm
sure it has happened at many other sites.   Nevertheless sites such as
Sepulveda Basin do operate successfully (guys that fly there will have
varied accounts as to how successfully).  In that case I'm sure it is
very much a matter of being motivated to fly and having few if any
other options as to where.   It is owned by Los Angeles City or County
(not sure on that detail) and they simply will not allow membership in
any organization to be a condition imposed on users of the site.  The
public entity doesn't have to be concerned about feeding the lawyers
and their favorite rice bowl,  deep-pockets lawsuits.  By state law
passed a few years ago, no public entity can be sued for damages
caused by a user of property or facilities under their control unless
they consent to being sued.    Lawsuit proof = users are responible
for themselves and their own actions=no liability risk concern on the
part of owner of public property.   Agencies in trust of public
property want it open to the public or not open at all.   Leases to
private organizations are often problematic where there is public
contention for use of that property.   Since they can't be sued
anymore, there is less offsetting incentive to exert the sort of
control over useage afforded by private lease arrangements.  
I think its a fine idea, and hope to see the day when the protection
that has been afforded to public entities will be extended to private
landowners that will make their property available for activities like
ours.    Guess that marks me an AMA basher - favoring a concept that
will likely require AMA to find a whole new approach to marketing, and
the products offered to the market.

Abel
C.O.Jones - 20 Jul 2004 22:34 GMT
> Right, and you are going to volunteer at your club to check 365 days a year
> for different policy expiration dates?  Get real!  We can't even get people
> to put a frequency marker on their antenna - you expect them to keep an
> insurance card (one that is up to date) in their flight box?

I think that is more the result of the good ol' boys club letting their
buddies slide!  Once again!

Try enforcing it and see what happens!  Yeah, I know!  Just wait until the
next meeting.  But if you can't enforce the rule, then why do you have it?
Basically the club needs to decide which way it wants to go and either dump
the rule book or suck it up and be adults about this.  Don't say it!  I see
the problem with that one too!
C.O.Jones - 20 Jul 2004 22:29 GMT
> > Have you ever considered the burden on club officers to make sure everyone
> > has some insurance  . . . . and is it still current? (you could show an
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> could be done with a summary insurance card like a AMA card. You wouldnt
> need the whole policy.

My State requires I carry proof of auto insurance in my car and on my
person.  My insurance company provides a nice little card that fits neatly
in  my wallet.  Just like an AMA card would.  And my card has my agents name
and phone number, policy and such on it so verification could be easy.

Now of course, everyone will claim that the car insurance could be purchased
for the card and then cancelled.  And that's true but, I won't pity the poor
fool who tries that and gets caught!  And were similar results in store for
those at the flying field playing similar games, things could be very
different in the R/C insurance game.  Anyway, who do you think is more
solvent and has more at stake?  The AMA or someone like State Farm,
Allstate, Nationwide, etc?

> > Whenever there are a great number of people that simply don't see the big
> > picture, watch out !
>
> Depends who is drawing the pictures.

Ain't that the truth!

> My whole complaint on this Red is there seems to be no give on the clubs
> side to insurance. Just because a club is registered with the AMA doesnt
> mean that everything is peachy keen. I know that for a fact. Then there
> are egos to contend with.

Nooooooo!  Not Egos!  You think? :)

A method could be done but, the AMA doesn't want to give up control.  With
the mandatory membership the AMA draws in most of their revenue.  Just ask
yourself how many people would remain AMA members if:
1. They could get the same insurance coverage.
2. For the same price that comes out of their AMA dues.
3. And would still be able to fly at the local club field or any so called
AMA field.

What would AMA's membership do in such a situation?
Six_O'Clock_High - 15 Jul 2004 06:21 GMT
Simpler for all concerned is the real answer.  Interspersed.
> The more I read about this the more confused I get.
>
> The way I see this is ; if your homeowners takes care of the bills then
> you dont need AMA.

That is not really right.

> BUT AMA seems to control wether or not you can fly at a club field
> because the old saw is "ya gotta have ama". It should be "ya gotta have
> home owners insurance"

First problem is that there is NO way to verify your HO coverage INCLUDES
R/C.
Second problem is YOUR HO policy will not protect the club's landlord
Third problem is that club officers make sure your insurance (AMA card) is
up to date.  Care to keep current proof of active and viable R/C coverage
available for inspection?  That is a heck of a lot of paper and usually only
covers up to around $350K.  AMA coverage takes over after that.

> There used to be a box you could check if you wanted their magazine.
> What broke down?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> > I have been a member of the AMA off and on for 30+ years.  I used to think it
> > was just for the insurance.  And did up until about 3-4 years ago.
Six_O'Clock_High - 15 Jul 2004 06:21 GMT
Simpler for all concerned is the real answer.  Interspersed.
> The more I read about this the more confused I get.
>
> The way I see this is ; if your homeowners takes care of the bills then
> you dont need AMA.

That is not really right.

> BUT AMA seems to control wether or not you can fly at a club field
> because the old saw is "ya gotta have ama". It should be "ya gotta have
> home owners insurance"

First problem is that there is NO way to verify your HO coverage INCLUDES
R/C.
Second problem is YOUR HO policy will not protect the club's landlord
Third problem is that club officers make sure your insurance (AMA card) is
up to date.  Care to keep current proof of active and viable R/C coverage
available for inspection?  That is a heck of a lot of paper and usually only
covers up to around $350K.  AMA coverage takes over after that.

> There used to be a box you could check if you wanted their magazine.
> What broke down?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> > I have been a member of the AMA off and on for 30+ years.  I used to think it
> > was just for the insurance.  And did up until about 3-4 years ago.
MJC - 14 Jul 2004 14:20 GMT
   Ed, I agree with you that the AMA is a lot more than about insurance,
BUT, the REASON that AMA membership is mandated by every RC club in the
nation is FOR the insurance.
   I really do try to read the magazine cover to cover, but I usually fall
asleep around page 5 or so.
   Beyond the insurance, however, we all really should encourage everyone
in the hobby to join because of the AMA's involvement in EVERYTHING that has
to do with protecting our interests in the hobby.

MJC

> I have been a member of the AMA off and on for 30+ years.  I used to think it
> was just for the insurance.  And did up until about 3-4 years ago.  If you read
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> you can get for anywhere near the money.  Oh and BTW, you won't fly at my/our
> club without it.   Eddie Fulmer   AMA 63713
Phil - 14 Jul 2004 22:46 GMT
Ed,
I know the AMA is much more than insurance and that is part of my beef.  I concur
with the insurance part of the AMA and representing the hobby as lobbyists with the
government and FCC. Also that they stand behind clubs in case the club gets into
legal or government issues.  Beyond that is where I start to have a beef.  Muncie
as a site and the museum is starting to look like a bureaucracy.  Years ago when
the Muncie sight was proposed I was kind of indifferent, but more supportive than
not.  I've done a 180 on that.  Administrative costs of the AMA have skyrocketed
since.  They blame it on insurance costs, but when you look at the figures the
don't support that claim.  Look at the percentage of the annual budget for capital
and administrative costs, verses insurance costs.  Take those percentages and
multiply them against your dues, my last computation was that out of my last years
dues, roughly $10 was insurance costs.  And that administration was well over 50%
of my dues.
My concern is the AMA has lost it's focus on what they are.  An organization to
promote the hobby.  I think they have raised their dues costs to where it is
becoming prohibitive to the hobby.  Not for many existing flyers, but for those
occasional flyers, or those who fly something so small they do it in a park.  Our
club hosts and electric flyin each year.  The numbers of electric flyers who would
like to come but don't, are to increasing each year.  Why, because they don't
belong and can't justify the AMA dues for one event.  We are an AMA club and
require AMA membership to fly at our facility.  I also know of flyers that are
still interested in the hobby, still have equipment but don't belong because they
can't justify the AMA cost for twice a year.  The centralized Muncie facility is a
place that the vast majority of AMA members will never visit, some due to distance,
some due to other reasons.  I personally think it should be sold, and the AMA
museum become 100% voluntary funded.  No money or support should come from your
dues either directly or indirectly.  When sold the AMA should work with each
district to support a flying site central to their district.  That flying site
should be partially funded by the AMA but also funded and maintained by the local
club(s) that considers it theirs, with a couple of exceptions.  As an AMA district
site two weeks each year the AMA should have exclusive use, and for that use they
reimburse the flying site for improvements and maintenance.  Have district and
National events at those sites and rotate national events on a yearly basis.  Hold
national events in the winter months that districts support warmer weather, summer
months in districts that have colder weather.  At these district sites   The AMA
should use their financial ability to acquire the property and over flight area and
the clubs should develop the improvements.

These two changes I believe would reduce the dues costs significantly each year.

I am not really bashing the AMA here, I just think they have lost touch with
promoting the hobby verses promoting and institution in Muncie.  They may not have,
it's just my opinion.  An you know what the say about opinions.

Phil

> I have been a member of the AMA off and on for 30+ years.  I used to think it
> was just for the insurance.  And did up until about 3-4 years ago.  If you read
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> you can get for anywhere near the money.  Oh and BTW, you won't fly at my/our
> club without it.   Eddie Fulmer   AMA 63713
MJC - 15 Jul 2004 14:10 GMT
   Ahh, you bring up the Muncie fiasco.
   I hated the idea when it was floated and I hate the idea now because
what I thought would happen has happened.
   A central location that incorporated a flying site for the AMA was NEVER
necessary and still isn't today. Additionally, a single location was stupid
from the get-go because very few of the AMA members who live out of state
would be able to frequent the site, even for "special" events. It made much
more sense to rotate the various big flying events around the country and
get host clubs involved as had been done in the past.
   Now of course, the administrative costs of the AMA has skyrocketed, or
more aptly put, "free flighted", and members get no more for their dues just
because the top leadership needed to stroke each other's ego by pushing for
the flying site.
   Of course, the AMA is still all we have so we have to stick with it, but
we would have been much better served if the AMA had simply built a 5-story
office building in some city and then leased out the other 4 floors for
profit.

MJC

> Ed,
>  I know the AMA is much more than insurance and that is part of my beef.  I concur
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
> > you can get for anywhere near the money.  Oh and BTW, you won't fly at my/our
> > club without it.   Eddie Fulmer   AMA 63713
jim breeyear - 20 Jul 2004 15:37 GMT
>     Ahh, you bring up the Muncie fiasco.
>     I hated the idea when it was floated and I hate the idea now because
> what I thought would happen has happened.

As long as an organization is kept being fed it is only a matter of time
before the palace is gold plated. This of course assumes that no one
complains about the rising costs. We dont need an "air and space"
museum. They already have a place in Wash.  with r/c stuff in it that we
paid for.
I will have to check into the cost of extra insurance on my Home Owners
to bring it up to 1,000,000 bux.
As far as lobbying goes, I would think the radio manuf. would make sure
that there is always radio freq allocations for r/c, after all it is
their bread and butter.
C.O.Jones - 20 Jul 2004 22:37 GMT
> As long as an organization is kept being fed it is only a matter of time
> before the palace is gold plated. This of course assumes that no one
> complains about the rising costs. We dont need an "air and space"
> museum. They already have a place in Wash.  with r/c stuff in it that we
> paid for.

Ah Jim!  Last I looked in the Air and Space, was not an R/C model to be
found.  And that includes the new annex at Dulles too.

Granted, it's been a couple of years since I was in the one downtown DC
but........................................
jim breeyear - 21 Jul 2004 19:17 GMT
could be C.O. , I will defer and say the maybe they rotate the stuff to
keep it interesting. I dont want to get another fur ball going on this.

>>As long as an organization is kept being fed it is only a matter of time
>>before the palace is gold plated. This of course assumes that no one
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Granted, it's been a couple of years since I was in the one downtown DC
> but........................................
Charles & Peggy Robinson - 03 Aug 2004 00:42 GMT
   I was against the Muncie location from the start.  I worked at the
first Muncie-held Nats.  Don't see any reason to ever go back.

   I suggested satellite flying sites in each extremity of the country
so that we could rotate the Nats among them, letting ALL AMA members get
a chance to attend.  We ran the Nats with mostly volunteer labor when it
was rotated.  Now the SIGS and AMA have to pay the workers because the
local volunteers burned out quickly.

  CR

>     Ahh, you bring up the Muncie fiasco.
>     I hated the idea when it was floated and I hate the idea now because
[quoted text clipped - 218 lines]
>
>>>club without it.   Eddie Fulmer   AMA 63713
Paul McIntosh - 03 Aug 2004 07:09 GMT
You and me both!  When I first heard of teh Muncie site, I did an analysis
of their data and concluded that the site should have been placed somewhere
in Texas.  That would have put it in an area more accessable to the majority
of actual competitors and likely users.

There were plenty of rumors about someone in the AMA marrying someone else
involved in the real estate transactions....

--
Paul McIntosh
http://www.rc-bearings.com
>     I was against the Muncie location from the start.  I worked at the
> first Muncie-held Nats.  Don't see any reason to ever go back.
[quoted text clipped - 229 lines]
> >
> >>>club without it.   Eddie Fulmer   AMA 63713
C.O.Jones - 03 Aug 2004 21:37 GMT
> You and me both!  When I first heard of teh Muncie site, I did an analysis
> of their data and concluded that the site should have been placed somewhere
> in Texas.  That would have put it in an area more accessable to the majority
> of actual competitors and likely users.

Texas would have been better weather wise as well.

> There were plenty of rumors about someone in the AMA marrying someone else
> involved in the real estate transactions....

Rumor I heard was the property owner had some connection to DB.  Maybe a
brother or something.  Second rumor was the real estate agent was dating or
married to the original owner.
Paul McIntosh - 03 Aug 2004 23:20 GMT
Sounds pretty close!

--
Paul McIntosh
http://www.rc-bearings.com

> > You and me both!  When I first heard of teh Muncie site, I did an analysis
> > of their data and concluded that the site should have been placed
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> brother or something.  Second rumor was the real estate agent was dating or
> married to the original owner.
AAA - 19 Jul 2004 08:56 GMT
> I have been a member of the AMA off and on for 30+ years.  I used to think it
> was just for the insurance.  And did up until about 3-4 years ago.  If you read
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> you can get for anywhere near the money.  Oh and BTW, you won't fly at my/our
> club without it.   Eddie Fulmer   AMA 63713

But I can fly my park flyer across the street from your big expensive
plane:)
Six_O'Clock_High - 19 Jul 2004 21:07 GMT
> > I have been a member of the AMA off and on for 30+ years.  I used to
> think it
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> But I can fly my park flyer across the street from your big expensive
> plane:)

I guess that might depend on how much you would like to spend in legal fees.
Doug McLaren - 19 Jul 2004 21:52 GMT
| > But I can fly my park flyer across the street from your big expensive
| > plane:)
|
| I guess that might depend on how much you would like to spend in
| legal fees.

How so?

I assume you're worried about frequency control?

If so, you don't have any special rights to a given R/C frequency,
even if you're in a club, even if the club is AMA sanctioned.  If
somebody is flying next door, you'll have to share.

The FCC has allocated those frequencies with the understanding that
you must accept any interference that you may receive -- and that
includes interference from other fliers.  I can dig up the exact
reference if needed.

If you use the ham bands, things are a bit different, but still, you
have no more right to a specific frequency than anybody else.

The AMA rules say that you agree not to fly within 3 miles of an
established flying field without a frequency control agreement in
place -- which is prudent -- but it's not binding upon anybody who is
not an AMA member.  And at some level, walking over to the AMA field
and putting a note on the frequency control board that says `I'm
flying on channel 35 across the street -- Doug, 3:45pm, 07/19' would
qualify as at least an attempt at a frequency control agreement.

As for the legal fees, I guess if you and a park flier crashed each
other's planes, you could both sue each other.  And I'd expect both
cases to be thrown out, because you have no right to use a given
frequency.  Unless local laws prohibit R/C flying at all outside the
AMA field, of course.

Of course, if you turned on on channel 35 at the AMA field, knowing
full well that somebody was using it at the field across the street
(especially if they made an effort to make SURE the AMA field knew),
you might very well find yourself being the target of a suit -- and
that one might not be thrown out so quickly, since it was done
intentionally.

Signature

Doug McLaren, dougmc@frenzy.com          How do I set a laser printer to stun?

Six_O'Clock_High - 20 Jul 2004 02:41 GMT
> | > But I can fly my park flyer across the street from your big expensive
> | > plane:)
> |
> | I guess that might depend on how much you would like to spend in
> | legal fees.

SNIP

> Of course, if you turned on on channel 35 at the AMA field, knowing
> full well that somebody was using it at the field across the street
> (especially if they made an effort to make SURE the AMA field knew),
> you might very well find yourself being the target of a suit -- and
> that one might not be thrown out so quickly, since it was done
> intentionally.

Precisely!
Mike R. - 20 Jul 2004 03:55 GMT
> | > But I can fly my park flyer across the street from your big expensive
> | > plane:)
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> flying on channel 35 across the street -- Doug, 3:45pm, 07/19' would
> qualify as at least an attempt at a frequency control agreement.

   I thought it was 5mi????
While on the subject......what is range of a single conversion vs dual
conversion TX???

    Mike
TY for any info
Abel Pranger - 20 Jul 2004 04:39 GMT
Mike-
>    I thought it was 5mi????

3 Mi last I heard.

>While on the subject......what is range of a single conversion vs dual
>conversion TX???

No such thing as single and dual conversion transmitters.

As for single conversion (one IF stage) and dual conversion (two IF
stages) receivers, not a dimes worth of range difference in quality
equipment of either type.   I favor the Berg single conversion
recievers at this time, due to their small size and weight, track
record of performance,  and an unscientific feel-good because they
have at least one less fragile crystal to break (aside: dual
conversion PPM RX's have 2 crystals, PCM Rx's have have 3) in a mishap
and fewer components overall, which smells like greater reliability to
me.   JR has also been very successful with single conversion
receivers, and more mfgrs are appearing in the marketplace every
month.  !0 years ago dual conversion was the only way to go.  Nothing
is forever.

Abel
jim breeyear - 20 Jul 2004 15:55 GMT
If the front end of the receiver has good selectivity and the rx has
moderate gain(no need to dig for submicrovolt signals) , single
conversion should work fine providing the transmitter can overide the
inteferring image signal.

I read that fire alarm boxes transmit in the 72 mhz band also.

> Mike-
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>>While on the subject......what is range of a single conversion vs dual
>>conversion TX???
jim breeyear - 20 Jul 2004 15:40 GMT
HA HA HA HA..............................

>     I thought it was 5mi????
> While on the subject......what is range of a single conversion vs dual
> conversion TX???
George Thomas - 21 Jul 2004 00:19 GMT
You know if you all lived in the country like me you wont need AMA and you
would not have to worry about the guy next door becouse there is no one next
door to worry about. I go out and fly and never worry about anyone life is
so good in a small town in the middle of GA

> > I have been a member of the AMA off and on for 30+ years.  I used to
> think it
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> But I can fly my park flyer across the street from your big expensive
> plane:)
Paul McIntosh - 21 Jul 2004 17:36 GMT
The minute large groups of people start to migrate out to the "country" like
where you live, people like you start complaining about it.  Seems that only
a select few have the right to live in the country.

I would love to live in the country but I prefer the conveniences of
suburbia.

--
Paul McIntosh
http://www.rc-bearings.com
> You know if you all lived in the country like me you wont need AMA and you
> would not have to worry about the guy next door becouse there is no one next
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> > But I can fly my park flyer across the street from your big expensive
> > plane:)
jim breeyear - 21 Jul 2004 19:21 GMT
A-men to that. I was on my way to Andersonville prison (visitor-one day)
 and I happened on a marker that said 'This is where Lindberg bought
his first jenny and soloed.' I did a 9G left turn and sure nuff there
was the field. I didnt know that it all started in Ga. Luv that Okee swamp.

 I go out and fly and never worry about anyone life is
> so good in a small town in the middle of GA
$modelman$ - 22 Jul 2004 14:34 GMT
This mesage is to Phil...

What you wrote was elequent and dead on. Please do a lot of AMA member
a great service and forward your note on to AMA for publication in th
"Letters to the Editor". The last time I went to the Nationals the
were in Chicopee Mass (1992), about an hour away from my home. It was
fantastic experience that may not happen again for me. The Nationals
now may as well be on the moon. My opinion is that AMA does very littl
to promote the hobby now that they have a central location. By changin
sites for the Nationals, we can expose the hobby to many more people.

Bar

--
$modelman
Foamaholic - 22 Jul 2004 15:35 GMT
I live in the country too, but what if my plane hit someone's cow

--
Foamaholi
Paul McIntosh - 22 Jul 2004 16:59 GMT
Man, with the price of beef nowdays, you would have to sell your house!

--
Paul McIntosh
http://www.rc-bearings.com

> I live in the country too, but what if my plane hit someone's cow?
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Foamaholic's Profile: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/member.php?action=getinfo&userid=33391
> View this thread: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=251855
Six_O'Clock_High - 22 Jul 2004 21:01 GMT
AMERICAN beef Paul, American beef.  <G>

> Man, with the price of beef nowdays, you would have to sell your house!
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> > View this thread:
> http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=251855
Paul McIntosh - 22 Jul 2004 21:21 GMT
That's what I was talking about!  Got a stack of ribeyes at the commissary
yesterday.  $9.50 a pound!  They WERE real good, though!  ;^)

--
Paul McIntosh
http://www.rc-bearings.com
> AMERICAN beef Paul, American beef.  <G>
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> > > View this thread:
> > http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=251855
 
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