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Model Forum / Radio Controlled / Air Models / August 2004Disgusting
I have been out of the hobby for 8 years, and thought I'd stop by my old club to see what was going on. I saw the same hackers with way too much money and no skill level with their ten thousand dollar T.O.C. planes trying to hover twenty feet off of the deck. I couldn't get the hell out of there fast enough. I really enjoyed flying pattern, but the politics and BS bias burned me out. I discovered that the Muncie Nationals could be won by buying a judge a nice steak dinner the night before. The whole world is focused on the 'Olympic Doping Scandal' right now, but that factor has nothing on the fun family oriented hobby of radio controlled aeroplanes. Cubic dollars = trophies. winnard Guessin we wont have to hear from you for another 8 years?  SignatureDan AMA605992 KE6ERB http://www.fubar1.net "I've heard the screams of the vegetables..." Take out the "trash" to reply > I have been out of the hobby for 8 years, and thought I'd stop by my old > club to see what was going on. I saw the same hackers with way too much [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > winnard sounds to me like you are just one of the jealous old farts that knows damn well he can't fly a scale aerobatic aircraft, so he chooses to express his hatred for those who can. I have met your type many times. My guess is those guys were doing a good job of hovering 20 feet off the deck, OR LESS without a problem........and I also presume they were happy to see you leave........... spend more time practicing and less time bitching and you might be able to torque roll yourself. Brad > I have been out of the hobby for 8 years, and thought I'd stop by my old > club to see what was going on. I saw the same hackers with way too much [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > winnard >> I have been out of the hobby for 8 years, and thought I'd stop by my >> old club to see what was going on. I saw the same hackers with way [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Brad In general I agree with you, but he does have a point. While extreme acrobatics takes tremendous skill and hours and hours of practice, some of the extreme 3D flyers have become helicopter pilots in every way except the aircraft. Fixed wing aircraft deserve a little forward flight from time to time. -- Dave Thompson Yes, I have been to a few extreme fun fly clubs and must admit that seeing an airplane take off and immediately hover a few feet above ground was way off what I was used to. I dont think it is flying as I know it. I think it brings the spot lites on the hobby due to the extreme nature which might help fill the slots. I usually walk away thinking if you want to hover and dance, use a helicopter. It also reminded me of Northrups attempt to make a VTOL prop airplane... It reallly took a lot of horsepower. > In general I agree with you, but he does have a point. While extreme > acrobatics takes tremendous skill and hours and hours of practice, some of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > -- > Dave Thompson I find hovering to be easier than a good four point roll. A good torque roll is another thing. Most people I see doing 3D don't seem to care about precision. But it is a something to watch an expert doing both normal pattern and 3D with precision. > sounds to me like you are just one of the jealous old farts that knows damn > well he can't fly a scale aerobatic aircraft, so he chooses to express his [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > > > winnard > I have been out of the hobby for 8 years, and thought I'd stop by my old > club to see what was going on. I saw the same hackers with way too much [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > aeroplanes. > Cubic dollars = trophies. See you and your park flyer on a park sometime :-) We have a little field used by glider guiders and electric flyers. One of the few times I visited it, I was remarking on how much mire relaxed it was than the power site..one old boy remarked that 'after years of fiddling with engines, and controlling over powered models, he had gone back to gliders and E-planes 'because I suddenly realized I wasn't having fun anymore' > winnard >> I have been out of the hobby for 8 years, and thought I'd stop by my old >> club to see what was going on. I saw the same hackers with way too much [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > back to gliders and E-planes 'because I suddenly realized I wasn't > having fun anymore' I fly gliders and couldn't agree more. the whole extreme 3D flying is beyond me. Why don't they fly a proper helicopter instead of a fixed wing aircraft? Their aerobatics are an insult to the wings on their plays since they seem to ignore those wings completely. Ewout >> winnard Oh my god, why would anyone want to fly a glider, they climb up to a little dot and fly around in a little circle while you get a stiff neck. Its just beyond me. Oh my god, why would anyone want to fly an electric, unless you spend a grip of cash, they only stay in the air for 5 minutes or so then you gotta spend the rest of the day re-charging the batteries. Its beyond me. Oh my god, why would anyone fly a helicopter, they only buzz around making a lot of noise but cant fly with any speed and they make a lot of smoke. Its beyond me. Oh my god, why would anyone wake up in the morning, you only have to keep breathing all day, and daylight makes you keep blinking your eyes and you just end up going back to sleep later that night anyway. Its just beyond me. Oh my god, why would anyone want to drive to the local flight field, you just have to find a place to park and unload your vehicle and you are only going to have to re-load the vehicle and drive back home anyway. Its just beyond me. Oh my god, why would.... How about because some people ENJOY it??? For the record, I: have gliders, electrics, wake up and breathe, drive to the field. I do not have a helicopter. Yet. SignatureDan AMA605992 KE6ERB http://www.fubar1.net "I've heard the screams of the vegetables..." Take out the "trash" to reply > I fly gliders and couldn't agree more. the whole extreme 3D flying is > beyond me. Why don't they fly a proper helicopter instead of a fixed [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > >> winnard And Dan DID say, "I do not have a helicopter....." I'm a firm believer that all diehard heli flyers also believe in self-flagellation...... There's hope for you yet, Dan.<G> Bill > Oh my god, why would anyone want to fly a glider, they climb up to a little > dot and fly around in a little circle while you get a stiff neck. Its just [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > > > >> winnard >Oh my god, why would anyone wake up in the morning, you only have to keep >breathing all day Beer and cheese. Bob This thread began in part with a comment on judging at the Nats: > I discovered that the Muncie Nationals could be won by buying a judge a nice > steak dinner the night before. > The whole world is focused on the 'Olympic Doping Scandal' right now, but > that factor has nothing on the fun family oriented hobby of radio controlled > aeroplanes. > Cubic dollars = trophies. I won't verify the statement nor accept it as valid, but some of the comments here demonstrate a naiveté that can only be described as "amazing!" Are those of you who scoff too young to remember the Navy-manned Nats when we actually had IMPARTIAL judges? My efforts in National competition were primarily in Control Line Combat. I can say without reservation that AMA absolutely ruined the concept of a NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP when they turned the competition over to Special Interest Groups (SIGs). Combat in particular was turned over to MACA, Miniature Aircraft Combat Association... I could write a book here - as TRUE competition and Sportsmanship are near and dear to me - but, before you attempt to offer any form of rebuttal, please demonstrate your knowledge of the issues by answering the following questions: In which event(s) is (are) the WIFE (WIVES) of a prominent contestant(s) the EVENT DIRECTOR? [Hint: If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, smells like a duck, it must be a ...? Appearances matter! Can you imagine Major League Baseball writing rules, creating schedules, umpiring games all season long - and then turning over umpiring of the World Series to the wives of ONE team?] In the 1970s you'll find a tie for 4th place in Open Combat - Bob Baldus and Ron Esman. In a single elimination NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP, how can 2 people possibly advance to the same (trophy) position? [Hint: Earl Witt, then AMA Secretary, had seen and heard enough. MACA judges, declaring MACA members winners regardless of what we all saw, and refusing to act on protests in direct violation of AMA rules. Even when roughly 50 witnesses signed.] I for one would like to see the organization which purportedly "governs model aviation" take responsibility for conducting a true NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP rather than an "old boys club" get-together. Dennis Leonhardi Apex, NC AMA 353 ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ Red Scholefield writes: > BS! Kind of tough to do when there is more than one judge. Sounds like the > worse case of sour grapes we've seen here in a long time. winnard writes: > I flew against one kid at the nats whose GRANDMOTHER was a judge. If that > isn't biased judging then what is? Jim Branum writes: > P.S. Your "complaint" MIGHT be more believable if you had the courage of > your convictions enough to sign your real name and PROVE that last > assertion. >I fly gliders and couldn't agree more. the whole extreme 3D flying is >beyond me. Why don't they fly a proper helicopter instead of a fixed >wing aircraft? Their aerobatics are an insult to the wings on their >plays since they seem to ignore those wings completely. With the right model, you can fly any way you wish. That's why God made the throttle. Bob We recently had a combat meet, and on several flights, the most experienced pilots (with full streamers and some pieces sticking to their wings) would fly low and slow while the less experienced, streamer-less pilots, would zoom by them at full throttle..... fun to watch. Just because you have the power doesn't mean you have to use it. . Arne, USA > With the right model, you can fly any way you wish. That's why God made the > throttle. > > Bob . > Just because you have the power doesn't mean you have to use it. > . > Arne, USA Hmmm! Now there's a line to pass off to Muncie! BS! Kind of tough to do when there is more than one judge. Sounds like the worse case of sour grapes we've seen here in a long time. RS (old fart that can recognize when people are better flyers - but I do get bored with the hovering maneuvers done over the active runway - regardless of the cost of the model - I must admit that I have even experienced some perverted joy when one of them buys the farm doing it.) > I really enjoyed flying pattern, but the politics and BS bias burned me > out. > I discovered that the Muncie Nationals could be won by buying a judge a nice > steak dinner the night before. > BS! Kind of tough to do when there is more than one judge. Sounds like the > worse case of sour grapes we've seen here in a long time. I flew against one kid at the nats whose GRANDMOTHER was a judge. If that isn't biased judging then what is? winnard If one doesn't suspect some things are rigged in the AMA, one has obviously ignored the election process for many years! > > BS! Kind of tough to do when there is more than one judge. Sounds like > the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > winnard C.O.Jones Wrote: > If one doesn't suspect some things are rigged in the AMA, one ha > obviously ignored the election process for many years! Ah . . . . . another vast right-wing conspiracy!!! Don'tcha just love it!!! -- Viper Pilo judgeing, competition??? so THIS IS THE REASON everyone flies??? thought it was for the fun and enjoyment. I thought it was to be abl to experiment with different oddly designed foamies. And above all, thought it was for the satisfaction of a job well done for one's self not the accolades of others and trophies to prove it. Just remember, the trophy and a buck twentyfive will get you a cup o coffee in the real world... -- gunf1gh accolades of others and trophies to prove it. > Just remember, the trophy and a buck twentyfive will get you a cup of > coffee in the real world.... In my neighborhood, that won't even get you the coffee anymore. > > BS! Kind of tough to do when there is more than one judge. Sounds like > the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > winnard I don't really enjoy those who hover right over the runway unless they are willing to climb to allow me to shoot touch and goes under them. Most do once they have seen that *I* practice as much control over my airplane as they do. This complaint stinks of sour grapes. It looks like a duck. It talks like a duck. It sounds like a duck. It walks like a duck. Therefore it must be a pattern flyer who lost to some kid who could really fly well. P.S. Your "complaint" MIGHT be more believable if you had the courage of your convictions enough to sign your real name and PROVE that last assertion. Jim Branaum > P.S. Your "complaint" MIGHT be more believable if you had the courage of > your convictions enough to sign your real name and PROVE that last > assertion. Six, You know as well as I do that certain individuals will make use of any and all information they can glean from this and other internet sources. And you also know that their purpose is malicious at best and driven by nothing less than evil intent. To that end, how can you criticize anyone for wanting to protect their own identity in any way they deem fit? You of all should know better! Chuck > > P.S. Your "complaint" MIGHT be more believable if you had the courage of > > your convictions enough to sign your real name and PROVE that last [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Chuck But *I* am only scared of the second floor surgical nurse with a needle. It's a Marine thing. . . . . You seem to have missed the last assertion that needed to be proven. I could be wrong, but I have yet to seen a grandmother with the qualifications necessary to judge any model aviation event. Well, maybe Hazel . . . . > But *I* am only scared of the second floor surgical nurse with a needle. > It's a Marine thing. . . . . That would be the "square" needle wouldn't it? :) > You seem to have missed the last assertion that needed to be proven. I > could be wrong, but I have yet to seen a grandmother with the qualifications > necessary to judge any model aviation event. Well, maybe Hazel . . . Actually, in her day my Grandmother probably could have been a judge. She and my mother use to build the stick and tissue stuff. That's where I learned it. Jealousy rears it's ugly head again..... Worst case of sour grapes I've seen in a long time... Bill > I have been out of the hobby for 8 years, and thought I'd stop by my old > club to see what was going on. I saw the same hackers with way too much [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > winnard > Jealousy rears it's ugly head again..... > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >> >>winnard Or he's just trollin. Just cause you can't fly 20 feet obove the ground in a hover does not make it bad, It just means that you are not a good enough flyer to do it! Stop complaining and get a good plane and start practicing to get good in modern flying style. You will find it more challenging than old pattern. > Jealousy rears it's ugly head again..... > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > > > winnard >Just cause you can't fly 20 feet obove the ground in a hover does not make >it bad, It just means that you are not a good enough flyer to do it! I have no problem with 3-D maneuvers on the runway, unless I'm practicing touch and goes at the same time. That's when courtesy takes over. Another point is almost EVERYONE is doing 3-D...I like to do and see something different at the field. Like maybe a "teeter-board" Dr.1 tripe? Try aerobatics with THAT sucker! :) Dr.1 Driver "There's a Hun in the sun!" > Stop complaining and get a good plane and start practicing to get good in > modern flying style. You will find it more challenging than old pattern. "Modern" doesn't always mean "better". On "hovering" ....A challenge? I'm sure. Noisy, boring (after the 4th or 5th one) and just plain (and plane) disruptive.....Undoubtedly. My .02 worth. Mike >Noisy, boring (after the 4th or 5th one) AMEN! Let'em try to hover a Dr.1! LOL! For that matter, let'em try to just land one without flipping it over! Certain maneuvers are easy when the plane is designed to do them. Dr.1 Driver "There's a Hun in the sun!" > >Noisy, boring (after the 4th or 5th one) > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Dr.1 Driver > "There's a Hun in the sun!" Boy, you sure do sound like a stick in the mud kind of guy! After all, shouldn't EVERYTHING be designed for the IG guys? . . . . . . . (that was a joke) IG = Instant Gratification Are you saying hovering is easy on anything but a Dr1? I want to see you hover a plane someday........even one that is designed to do it. Certain maneuvers ARE hard.........until you prove me wrong. Everyone wants to attest it takes no skill to hover.........so show me. Oh wait, let me guess.....you don't have the TIME to be goofing off, etc., etc......... Brad > >Noisy, boring (after the 4th or 5th one) > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Dr.1 Driver > "There's a Hun in the sun!" No one says it doesn't take any skill to hover. It takes less skill to perfect one maneuver than it does to perfect a very repeatable series of precise maneuvers, though! I can hover a Ballistick fairly easy and it is not specifically designed for that. Any plane with sufficient power and a thrust line very close to the CG can be hovered. Where many planes run into problems is when the thrust line is offset from the CG. -- Paul McIntosh http://www.rc-bearings.com > Are you saying hovering is easy on anything but a Dr1? > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Dr.1 Driver > > "There's a Hun in the sun!" >Are you saying hovering is easy on anything but a Dr1? IF you are able to read, you will know I never said that. Let me repeat myself and rephrase it so even you can understand it. Some planes are designed to perform certain maneuvers well or more easily than others. Typically, pattern planes are easy to fly smoothly, straight and level, and do smooth aerobatics with, because they are designed to fly that way. Remember, any bobble is a loss of points. It's hard to do smooth aerobatics with the sport plane I designed, because it's not built to do that type of flying. 3D planes are DESIGNED to perform 3D maneuvers more easily than other types of planes. Therefore, it's easier to perform a hover with a 3D plane than it is with most sport planes. Now, you prove ME wrong. You will not see me hovering because that type of flying holds absolutely no interest for me. In my LONG R/Cing career, I've done full competition fun fly, sport, scale, and giant scale. I fly what I like, you may fly what you like. However, you must allow me to not like what you fly. Speaking of planes designed to do certain things well, take a look at an unlimited class fun fly plane and fly it, when you get the nerve. >.you don't have the TIME to be goofing off, Sure I do, and I do "goof off" with my sport planes. When I fly my scale planes, I fly them in a scale-like manner. >Everyone wants to attest it takes no skill to hover.........so show me. I repeat...it doesn't take AS MUCH skill to hover a 3D plane as it does, let's say, a Great Planes Super Sportster or a J-3 Cub. You'll never convince me it does. Dr.1 Driver "There's a Hun in the sun!" >I repeat...it doesn't take AS MUCH skill to hover a 3D plane as it does, let's >say, a Great Planes Super Sportster or a J-3 Cub. You'll never convince me it >does. Good grief! I got skill and I didn't even know it. I can hover my GP SS MkII. Hovering ain't the big deal folks make it out to be if your engine's got the juice. Texas Pete >Hovering ain't the big deal folks make it out to be if your engine's >got the juice. Thanks, Pete. It's some skill, fur sur, but a LOT the right engine and prop, too. :) Dr.1 Driver "There's a Hun in the sun!" That is very true. Setup is probably more important than raw skill. -- Paul McIntosh http://www.rc-bearings.com > >Hovering ain't the big deal folks make it out to be if your engine's > >got the juice. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Dr.1 Driver > "There's a Hun in the sun!" >Subject: Re: Disgusting >From: "Paul McIntosh" paul@mcintoshcentral.com [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> Dr.1 Driver >> "There's a Hun in the sun!" Go to the SPAD site and build yourself a QHOR for under $10 (does not include radio and engine) and stick on a .25 Norvel with a 9x4 prop or a TT GP.40 with a 10x4 prop and you'll be able to hover six inches off the ground all day long after a little practice. It'll drive the guys with the $3000 monster airplanes nuts too! Lotsa' cheap fun! Joe L. "Old Pattern" is getting to be a rather lost art and is far more difficult than simply performing maneuvers. Seems that "modern" flying is more about extremes than actual flying precision. I see the need to master all disciplines before calling yourself an expert. I am far from that in several aspects! -- Paul McIntosh http://www.rc-bearings.com > > Stop complaining and get a good plane and start practicing to get good in > > modern flying style. You will find it more challenging than old pattern. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Mike one more club-basher.......have fun with your "lonely little self -- Viper Pilo >I discovered that the Muncie Nationals could be won by buying a judge a nice >steak dinner the night before. Any proof ? Looks like a troll..... ------- Newsman Sorry to see you leave, and don't let the door hit you on the a.s on your way out. MJC > I have been out of the hobby for 8 years, and thought I'd stop by my old > club to see what was going on. I saw the same hackers with way too much [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > winnard What ever happened to flying for the fun of it??? > I have been out of the hobby for 8 years, and thought I'd stop by my old > club to see what was going on. I saw the same hackers with way too much [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > winnard That's the only kind I do! I just happen to get a big dose of fun flying warbirds and pylon (usually together!) -- Paul McIntosh http://www.rc-bearings.com > What ever happened to flying for the fun of it??? > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > > > winnard > What ever happened to flying for the fun of it??? Haven't you heard? The AMA banned it! The members were enjoying it too much! :) > What ever happened to flying for the fun of it??? It is against some rule somewhere. <G> >> What ever happened to flying for the fun of it??? >> >It is against some rule somewhere. <G> Another thought - some pattern fliers (now 3D types), liked to be the center of attention. Winning at pattern was an ego event for them, most others tried to do their best - for their own satisfaction. This 3D fad is an evolution of that behavior. My basis for this is - when we lost our flying field and had to accept another that was concealed from the passing public, the "attention lovers" bailed out. Those of us left felt much relief, BTW. No more "lightning bugs" out there shining their a.ses and disrupting those who just wanted to fly for their own relaxation. Oh, almost forgot - the AMA seems to be predominantly about competition, so these remarks are likely unwelcome. Olin McDaniel, AMA 30932 To reply by email, please remove "abcd" from Return address ----------------------------------------------------- "Ignorance is treatable, Stupidity is incurable. Sometimes the difference is hardly distinguishable, however." No more "lightning bugs" out there >shining their a.ses and disrupting those who just wanted to fly for >their own relaxation. And BTW, hasn't one of the most popular "maneuvers", the tail-touch, been forbidden by the AMA? There goes half their show at one swipe. the AMA seems to be >predominantly about competition, so these remarks are likely >unwelcome. Actually, the AMA is about sport flyers. Except for once a year when the whole damn office shuts down to cater to the macho-ego pattern jocks in "THE NATS". A competition event that the AMA puts countless time and $$$ into so 0.1%, that's right, one tenth of one percent of the membership, can enter. Yes, I know The Nats has other events, but let's call a spade a spade, if it weren't for pattern, the Nats would never be held. It's the same reason I last flew in Joe Nall the year before they went to Triple Tree, and that's the last one I"ll EVER fly in. It's a giant 3D event with other planes just to fill in time between hovers, flip flops, wollygags, and other maneuvers that look like a bird flying with two broken wings. Dr.1 Driver "There's a Hun in the sun!" Re: Joe Nall "It's a giant 3D event > with other planes just to fill in time between hovers, flip flops, wollygags, > and other maneuvers that look like a bird flying with two broken wings. Kind of describes some of our other IMAA fly ins. Gosh - I wonder why the attendance seems to be way down? Red S. >Kind of describes some of our other IMAA fly ins. Gosh - I wonder why the >attendance seems to be way down? 'Cause those planes all look the same, they all fly the same, and the pilots all do the same maneuvers; over and over and over, ad nauseum. (read: BORING!!!) Dr.1 Driver "There's a Hun in the sun!" what is boring is taking off, flying around in a circle.....maybe throwing an occasional and shitty looking roll or loop in there as you fly by.........and landing. This is what I presume you do as every other flyer that bitches about 3D does. Brad > >Kind of describes some of our other IMAA fly ins. Gosh - I wonder why the > >attendance seems to be way down? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Dr.1 Driver > "There's a Hun in the sun!" >This is what I presume you do as every other flyer >that bitches about 3D does. Your lack of English grammar is showing. You do not "presume", you "assume". This makes an 'a.s' out of 'u,' but not 'me', since I didn't say it. Dr.1 Driver "There's a Hun in the sun!" >what is boring is taking off, flying around in a circle.....maybe throwing >an occasional and shitty looking roll or loop in there as you fly >by.........and landing. This is what I presume you do as every other flyer >that bitches about 3D does. I don't see how anyone can justify insulting or griping about anybody else's fun, provided that it's safe fun. That's just so petty. I've seen a lot of guys who fly just as you describe and they were usually smiling, so what's the problem? 3D makes you smile? Then I say go for it! Whatever smokes yer shorts. I'll tell you one durn thang: Belittling other fliers won't make you one bit better than they are, it will only make you look kinda small. Texas Pete > what is boring is taking off, flying around in a circle.....maybe throwing > an occasional and shitty looking roll or loop in there as you fly > by.........and landing. This is what I presume you do as every other flyer > that bitches about 3D does. > > Brad I think this is some of the ego mentioned earlier! I don't hover airplanes! I fly them! That's why mine have wings! If I hovered them I wouldn't bother building the wings! Helicopters hover! It's what they do when they can't get a consensus from their parts on which way to go. Hovering an airplane is nothing more than a cute parlor trick. Sure, not everyone can do it. But at the same time, not everyone can fly a full scale F-15. That doesn't make those who can't some kind of lowlife! The hobby is for enjoyment regardless what aspect you do. For me I like nothing better than to make a very long landing approach. One that seems to take forever to reach the runway and where you don't even hear the wheels touch. Now that, believe it or not, takes practice! Chuck DITTO! -- Paul McIntosh http://www.rc-bearings.com > > what is boring is taking off, flying around in a circle.....maybe throwing > > an occasional and shitty looking roll or loop in there as you fly [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Chuck > what is boring is taking off, flying around in a circle.....maybe throwing > an occasional and shitty looking roll or loop in there as you fly > by.........and landing. This is what I presume you do as every other flyer > that bitches about 3D does. > > Brad Some people just like to fly in circles, do some rolls, and do not shitty but lazy loops. Who does not like a J3 Cub doing a lazy loop then float on down for a gentle touch down. 3Der's are x helicopter pilots who compensate because they just cant master a helicopter.....so invent a plane with globs of power , barndoor size aileorns, and a fat a.s....you have a 3d plane. Mike |
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