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first "flight" battery hell

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dh@. - 27 Oct 2006 15:49 GMT
I took my new HoneyBee CP2 for its first "flight" in a square on
the ground as recommended by Radd's school of flight. I followed
the instructions in the manual, saying:

"It is recommended that you completely discharge the battery during the
initial test flight before following the charging guidlines outlined below."

After doing that the battery wouldn't charge. According to what I
was told (later) in other groups, discharging a LiPo battery completely
destroys the battery. What a fun manual! I wonder how many people
have been screwed the same way. It would be interesting to read a
school of flight written by the a.s who wrote that manual....

This site was suggested and gives some good info about batteries:

http://www.swashplate.co.uk/ehbg-v17/ch30s09.html

Another suggestion was to get a small E-Sky EC103A Li-Poly Balancing
Charger (EK2-0851) for about $10, in contrast to other suggestions
about getting a $100 range charger. Does anyone want to share
ideas or suggestions about how to deal with LiPo batteries? I'm
particularly interested in how to keep from over-discharging any
more of them.
The OTHER Kevin in San Diego - 27 Oct 2006 16:35 GMT
>I took my new HoneyBee CP2 for its first "flight" in a square on
>the ground as recommended by Radd's school of flight. I followed
>the instructions in the manual, saying:
>
>"It is recommended that you completely discharge the battery during the
>initial test flight before following the charging guidlines outlined below."

Was that stated in the HoneyBee's manual or on Radd's site?  (I've
never been to his site)  If the former, I'd be on the phone with E-sky
working out a free replacement battery..  

>After doing that the battery wouldn't charge. According to what I
>was told (later) in other groups, discharging a LiPo battery completely
>destroys the battery. What a fun manual! I wonder how many people
>have been screwed the same way. It would be interesting to read a
>school of flight written by the a.s who wrote that manual....

I know it's too late, but a lot of people in the hobby make a lot of
assumptions about a lot of things.  I'd be willing to bet that
statement was done up with NiCds or MiMhs in mind.  It would be a VERY
good idea to do a little research into the various technologies in the
hobby before diving in.

>This site was suggested and gives some good info about batteries:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>particularly interested in how to keep from over-discharging any
>more of them.

The rule of thumb right now is to not discharge past 80% of the
battery's capacity.  For example, if you have a 1000 mah battery,
don't pull more than 800mah out of it before you let it cool down then
recharge.  

That Esky charger won't tell you how much charge you're putting back
into the battery, while something like a Triton will.  Again, do some
research on good, inexpensive chargers before you just plunk down $ on
what might not do what you want.  Also, most chargers today require a
10-15v power supply to use at home on the bench.

Charging LiPos is potentially dangerous and should *NEVER* be done
unattended or on a flammable surface.  Max charge rate should be 1C or
1 times the capacity of the battery.  In the example above, the
1000Mah battery should be charged at 1 amp.  A 1500 Mah battery should
be charged at 1.5 amps etc..

I have several LiPos and I've invested quite a bit of money into their
"care and feeding"  *AFTER* doing a LOT of research on how best to
deal with these things.  Most RC helicopter forums will have a section
on batteries and chargers and after doing some reading, feel free to
ask questions.  Also, look for any FAQs (Frequently Asked Questions)
as well.
Jennifer Smith - 27 Oct 2006 19:32 GMT
> I took my new HoneyBee CP2 for its first "flight" in a square on
> the ground as recommended by Radd's school of flight. I followed
> the instructions in the manual, saying:
>
> "It is recommended that you completely discharge the battery during the
> initial test flight before following the charging guidlines outlined below."

That MUST have referred to NiCD or NiMH batteries - definitely not for
LiPo packs.

> This site was suggested and gives some good info about batteries:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> particularly interested in how to keep from over-discharging any
> more of them.

Ok, LiPo Batteries... :) To prevent deep discharging LiPo packs there
are so-called Battery Eliminator Circuits (BEC), which provide an
automatic cutoff. Some of them provide advance warning by artificially
lowering power output and/or beeping so that your heli doesn't drop out
of the sky all of a sudden - highly recommended. Others like the ones in
my planes just cut the power to the engine as soon as the battery drops
below a certain voltage. Okay for e-planes where you can glide down, but
not for helis.

Chargers... two important things: Most chargers need about a 12V input,
i.e. car battery voltage (probably so you can use your car battery to
charge your batteries out in the field), which means you'll also need a
12V power source at home. Then there are different types of chargers.
Balancing chargers are often more expensive, but better for LiPo battery
lifetime. However, the LiPo pack needs to actually have leads for such
chargers, otherwise you can't balance the cells.

And as Kevin already said... be very, very careful with LiPo batteries.
I store and charge mine out in the shed on the concrete floor, away from
anything flammable.

Remember the recent laptop fires? That's approximately what happens if
you're not careful with that type of battery. These fires burn very hot
and cannot be extinguished with normal fire extinguishers.

Jenni
Doug McLaren - 28 Oct 2006 02:11 GMT
...

| > "It is recommended that you completely discharge the battery
| > during the initial test flight before following the charging
| > guidlines outlined below."
|
| That MUST have referred to NiCD or NiMH batteries - definitely not for
| LiPo packs.

Of course, that's not even a good procedure for NiCd or NiMH
batteries.  And the original poster didn't actually tell us what the
charging guidelines are ...

| Ok, LiPo Batteries... :) To prevent deep discharging LiPo packs there
| are so-called Battery Eliminator Circuits (BEC), which provide an
| automatic cutoff.

That's not actually what the BEC does.  The BEC powers your RX and
servos, and generally has no cutoff whatsoever.  (Because you'd
generally rather ruin your battery than lose control of your plane
entirely.)

| Some of them provide advance warning by artificially lowering power
| output and/or beeping so that your heli doesn't drop out of the sky
| all of a sudden - highly recommended.

That's the function of the ESC itself.  Your ESC may have a BEC built
in (many do) but it's not actually the BEC that does this.

| Others like the ones in my planes just cut the power to the engine
| as soon as the battery drops below a certain voltage. Okay for
| e-planes where you can glide down, but not for helis.

Right ... cutoffs are not suggested for helicopters.  A beeper or a
LED to warn you when you're losing power isn't a bad idea, but
suddenly losing power when flying low and inverted is.

Cutoffs aren't actually that important.  As a rule of thumb, when
you've dropped from 4.2 volts/cell to 3.0 volts/cell, you've lost half
your power, which should be very noticable on any plane that's not
flown far away (like a powered glider.)  As long as you pay attention
to how your plane/helicopter is flying, you'll generally know when
it's time to stop and charge.  An automatic cutoff is a nice safety
measure, but it's not essential.

| Balancing chargers are often more expensive, but better for LiPo battery
| lifetime.

They don't have to be expensive.  For example, this one --

  http://www.nitrorcx.com/eeclipolilib.html

is only $12.

| Remember the recent laptop fires? That's approximately what happens
| if you're not careful with that type of battery. These fires burn
| very hot and cannot be extinguished with normal fire extinguishers.

Yes they can.  This isn't greek fire or anything like that.  (And if
you feel that I'm wrong about this, please, provide some references
for this claim.)

Yes, LiPos can spontaneously catch fire when abused, which makes them
dangerous, but the fires they create aren't more dangerous than other
fires of similar sizes.  (Though you may have a bunch more LiPo cells
near by, waiting to catch fire on their own -- but that's not any
different than many other things that can burn.)

Signature

Doug McLaren, dougmc@frenzied.us
You shouldn't wallow in self-pity. But it's OK to put your
  feet in it and swish them around a little.   -- Guindon

Fubar of The HillPeople - 27 Oct 2006 22:07 GMT
We have run into problems with cells going bad in several LiPos of diff
brands. Kind of a run on em lately in fact. My father bought a balancer from
Tower Hobbies and I just bought one from the LHS that is made by
Astroflight. His cost about $40. Mine cost about $25. The supposed advantage
of the Astroflight one is that it is universal consisting of a PC board with
a series of prongs sticking out of the end. You can just line up on the
prongs you need to match whatever equalizing plug is on your particular
battery.
He hasnt received his yet and I only bought mine a couple of hours ago so I
cant say how well they actually work.

Signature

Dan
AMA605992
KE6ERB
http://www.fubar1.net
"I've heard the screams of the vegetables..."
Take out the "trash" to reply

>I took my new HoneyBee CP2 for its first "flight" in a square on
> the ground as recommended by Radd's school of flight. I followed
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> particularly interested in how to keep from over-discharging any
> more of them.
 
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