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Model Forum / Radio Controlled / Air Models / November 2006Looking for a club/Instructor in Derbyshire/Notts area of UK
hi all, I guess i should start here, amongst the seasoned pros and novices alike, in my quest for a club/instructor in my local area. I have a Seagull 'Boomerang' 4ch sports trainer fitted with an SC.40 engine and APC 11x6 prop and want to learn to fly this before the New Year (personal reasons which I'd rather not discuss here). I've actually flown this plane on a few occasions before this with a nearby club, but this was around 2 years ago, and unfortunately on the last outing it suffered a battery failure - the battery lead disconnected after a steep turn - and it ended up plouging the nearby field. This resulted in a few holes in the wing section, a broken wing spar and also a snapped section of the vertical stabilizer. All the damage has been repaired with 1hr epoxy and balsa braces, and any holes re-covered with SolarTrim (as per another thread i posted here). Obviously it'll require a trained eye to look over it and deem it airworthy, but i expected this. So, back to my initial query, could anybody suggest a local club or locally based instructor that could help with my gaining of a BMFA 'A' cert? I know of only two local clubs (Leafields MAC: www.Leafields.com and Alport Flyers: http://www.alport-mfc.fsnet.co.uk/index.htm), I have contacted them, but so far i've received no response. Thats when i thought i'd see if anybody else can sugget anywhere locally - there doesnt seem to be many on the BMFA website that are within easy reach, and anywhere further than Derby or Nottingham is a little too far for me. Many many thanks for taking the time to read this, i really hope you can help me! Thanks again Simon > hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Simon On the Leafields website on the "contacts" page there are the telephone numbers of 6 blokes. Try ringing them. strange as it may seem, i also saw those details, and have tried phoning a few times - all to no response.... although it may just be my timing. > strange as it may seem, i also saw those details, and have tried > phoning a few times - all to no response.... although it may just be my > timing. I have nothing to do with that club, so all I can suggest is keep trying or just visit their field on a Sunday. > > strange as it may seem, i also saw those details, and have tried > > phoning a few times - all to no response.... although it may just be my > > timing. > > I have nothing to do with that club, so all I can suggest is keep > trying or just visit their field on a Sunday. Hi mark, i understood this, and actually had a visit in mind, but in all honesty their site isn't the greatest due to having a row of trees behind it (leading to an unexpected gusts of wind if its in the right (wrong??) direction) and the addition of a 4-foot dry stone wall at either end of the strip (okay, it is about 150 feet long, but still!) isnt ideal for landings either. > > > strange as it may seem, i also saw those details, and have tried > > > phoning a few times - all to no response.... although it may just be my [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > the strip (okay, it is about 150 feet long, but still!) isnt ideal for > landings either. A bit daunting for a novice... Mayb the other club you mentioned might be a better choice, but whatever you do, don't try it on your own! Don't know what else to suggest, sorry. Only other thing I can think of is you buy a cheapie electric artf and at least get some kind of practice in before risking your main plane. I still wouldn't recommend it though... Either way, when you hopefully find someone to teach you, immediately start building your next trainer, because chances are you'll write it off anyway! Just preparing you for the inevitable, it's a bit of a shocker seeing your first big effort in bits, so laugh it off when it happens. Big Snip >> Either way, when you hopefully find someone to teach you, immediately > start building your next trainer, because chances are you'll write it > off anyway! > Just preparing you for the inevitable, it's a bit of a shocker seeing > your first big effort in bits, so laugh it off when it happens. Many years ago, I taught myself to fly using a FF glider modified for rudder only radio control and never suffered the "inevitable write off". Yes I damaged it, but having built it was able to effect the necessary repairs. I used another modification of the same model when graduating to rudder and elevator control with similar results but far fewer mishaps than with rudder only and eventually graduated to power flying. The experience with gliders meant that I have never been worried about a "dead stick" landing as with a glider every landing approach is "dead stick". In fact, when first using power I preferred flying the tank dry rather than land with power on. Malcolm > Big Snip > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Many years ago, I taught myself to fly using a FF glider modified for rudder > only radio control and never suffered the "inevitable write off". I'd say that most IC power trainers that people try to fly on their own for the first time get decked (if they don't get accidentally damaged on the ground). IMHO tail draggers make far better trainers than trikes, which usually damage the front UC leg on a heavy landing. > Yes I damaged it, but having built it was able to effect the necessary > repairs. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Malcolm Gliders are probably the best way to learn, but it's sometimes difficult to find the right site. > I have a Seagull 'Boomerang' 4ch sports trainer fitted with an SC.40 > engine and APC 11x6 prop and want to learn to fly this before the New > Year (personal reasons which I'd rather not discuss here). Hi Simon, Best of luck finding a tutor. There are many BFMA instructors who thrive on the challenge, but often only using a buddy lead. They get a bad reputation if they lose too many models. Once found, dont be surprised if he/she recommends the use of a 10x6 rather than an 11x6 prop and APCs are reputed to be amongst the more efficient. Your SC40 is probably not yet run in , if so it will certainly be overpropped ( the engine will labour) , if it can handle the 11x6 then unless you quickly throttle back after takeoff, your trainer may tend to fly ( and react) rather faster than you would like. P Thanks for the reply Pointer. When i flew the plane before, it was actually via a buddy lead to my 6EXA whilst the instructor had, and used, his FF9. As for the engine, and the previous outings its had, the last time it was airborne was about a 20 minute flight, as were the handful before that - would this mean its still not fully run in? How would one tell? The engine seems to cope very well with the APC 11x6, and it was actually recommended to me for this particular aircraft and engine by Ajay Models nr. Chesterfield (i'm lead to believe that they're very well known in this industry, something to do with Zenoah petrol engines?). anyways, many thanks for all of your replies, much appreciated. One more thing, would anybody have an opinion as to the use of a flight sim, AeroFly Pro Deluxe / RealFlight G3 for laying the basics down over the winter should i not find an instructor/club?? Thanks again!! Simon > One more thing, would anybody have an opinion as to the use of a flight > sim, AeroFly Pro Deluxe / RealFlight G3 for laying the basics down over [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Simon I would recommend the free download FMS http://tinyurl.com/q4xf a simple Google search will find loads of additional models and landscapes for you to play with. You can use a cheap £10 joystick or a game controller, but best of all would be a hook up with your Tx. The USB cable and separateTX plug adapter should cost you about £25, but that will give you plenty of thumb practice. Find a model which stalls at slow speed, and do circuits as slowly and as low as possible. Then practice landing towards you without an unseemly cartwheel. Master that and the real life situation will seem easy to you. P thanks again Pointer! the only reason i suggested AeroFly and RF G3 is that i have a couple of friends with these sims, and they've offered to loan me one or the other (complete with dongles and cable) over winter should i really need them. The only thing i will need, they advise, is the connector cable for my 6EXA, which is the square 6-pin Futaba type. Other than using my Futaba Tx, and forking out near £30 for a connecting cable, can one use a USB dual-analog controller like this: http://tinyurl.com/r2cle to control these games? > > One more thing, would anybody have an opinion as to the use of a flight > > sim, AeroFly Pro Deluxe / RealFlight G3 for laying the basics down over [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > The USB cable and separateTX plug adapter should cost you about £25, but > that will give you plenty of thumb practice. Lesson number 1: Do you steer your car or bicycle with your thumb? No! It's a bad habit to get into. Don't use your thumb on the sticks because you have less control and it might slip off, grip it properly between index and thumb. > Find a model which stalls at slow speed, and do circuits as slowly and as > low as possible. > Then practice landing towards you without an unseemly cartwheel. > Master that and the real life situation will seem easy to you. > P > Lesson number 1: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Don't use your thumb on the sticks because you have less control and it > might slip off, grip it properly between index and thumb. Lesson number 2 Don't believe everything you read on the internet. I bet the majority of people fly with just their thumbs, I would also reckon that some of the best display pilots in this country also fly that way. Pick the method that suits YOU. I fly, sometimes in extremely cold weather and have never had a thumb slip off the sticks yet. I have lost the feeling in them on a number of occasions but they have always remained in place. Holding the sticks as advised feels totally wrong to me and I can't control the plane the same. Pick what feels right and ignore those who say that you shouldn't do it that way.... same guys will tell you that the ONLY way to learn to fly is by going to a club..... hmmmmmm ! Reg > > Lesson number 1: > > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > reckon that some of the best display pilots in this country also fly > that way. You only have to go and look, or ask any decent instructor. You'll likely also find that it's people who taught themselves, or learnt from people who taught themselves to fly that use thumbs to control their pride and joy. I know some people that use their thumbs AND fly with the elevators operating the wrong way round who learnt from a "self-taught" chap. > Pick the method that suits YOU. I fly, sometimes in extremely cold > weather and have never had a thumb slip off the sticks yet. I have lost [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Holding the sticks as advised feels totally wrong to me and I can't > control the plane the same. Like I said, it's a bad habit you picked up. > Pick what feels right and ignore those who say that you shouldn't do it > that way.... same guys will tell you that the ONLY way to learn to fly > is by going to a club..... hmmmmmm ! If you've got a .40 glow model it sure is. You're not suggesting that he should trim his own plane, never having flown before, I hope (and using his thumbs on the sticks). I've had to sort out all manner of fatal stuff, like ailerons or rudders turning the wrong way, engine not offset to the right, wrong CofG etc. and that's before take-off. A novice won't even know that he might need to use a bit of rudder on take off and use the ailerons instead. Sure, gliders don't have much to go wrong (I'd recommend a Precedent Hi-Fly 2ch glider for learning on your own) but likely it will save a lot of grief and expense if he goes to a club. > Reg > I would recommend the free download FMS > http://tinyurl.com/q4xf [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > The USB cable and separateTX plug adapter should cost you about £25, but > that will give you plenty of thumb practice. Lesson number 1: Do you steer your car or bicycle with your thumb? No! It's a bad habit to get into. Don't use your thumb on the sticks because you have less control and it might slip off, grip it properly between index and thumb. I have been flying R/c since the early 70s, and after graduating from push button single channel have always used my thumbs on the sticks as I don't have, and don't want a transmitter tray such as those I have seen helicopter pilots using. In all those years, my thumbs have yet to "slip off the sticks". As with most things there are some areas where there is no "right or wrong" - use whatever is best for you. As for FMS, one of the model outlets advertising in RCM&E has a package with FMS on CD plus a connector cable for a TX such as a Futaba 6EXA for around £15 which could solve the problem. There are better sims than FSA but it's a reasonable starting point. Malcolm > Find a model which stalls at slow speed, and do circuits as slowly and as > low as possible. > Then practice landing towards you without an unseemly cartwheel. > Master that and the real life situation will seem easy to you. > P > > I would recommend the free download FMS > > http://tinyurl.com/q4xf [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > I have been flying R/c since the early 70s, I started about that time. > and after graduating from push > button single channel have always used my thumbs on the sticks as I don't > have, and don't want a transmitter tray such as those I have seen helicopter > pilots using. Well a proper instructor would have stopped you developing that habit. And you don't need a tray for either, not even a neckstrap. > In all those years, my thumbs have yet to "slip off the sticks". > > As with most things there are some areas where there is no "right or > wrong" - use whatever is best for you. Nothing stopping anyone using their big toe, but the pros don't fumble with their fumbs. > As for FMS, one of the model outlets advertising in RCM&E has a package with > FMS on CD plus a connector cable for a TX such as a Futaba 6EXA for around [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Master that and the real life situation will seem easy to you. > > P Snip Nothing stopping anyone using their big toe, but the pros don't fumble with their fumbs. Most of us aren't "pros", and I have seen aerobatic and scale competition pilots using their thumbs on the sticks as well as seeing instructors do the same. As said previously - do what feels "right" for you... Malcolm | > Lesson number 1: | > | > Do you steer your car or bicycle with your thumb? No! That's my winner for `worst analogy of the day' award! Congratulations! Last I checked, you don't steer your car or bicycle with a little stick held between your thumb and finger either. By your analogy, we probably shouldn't fly R/C planes like that either? | > It's a bad habit to get into. Perhaps it's not ideal, but I'm not sure it really qualifies as a `bad habit'. | > Don't use your thumb on the sticks because you have less control and it | > might slip off, grip it properly between index and thumb. I've heard that holding it between your finger and thumb will give you more control, and I have noticed that more of the `really good' pilots do this than the `average' pilots (like me.) However, your thumb alone does not just `slip off'. | > and after graduating from push button single channel have always | > used my thumbs on the sticks as I don't have, and don't want a | > transmitter tray such as those I have seen helicopter pilots | > using. | | Well a proper instructor would have stopped you developing that habit. And in my experience, 1) most people fly with their thumbs, and 2) this includes most instructors. (Though if one of your requirements for being a `proper' instructor is to not fly with your thumbs, then I guess none of the `proper' instructors do.) | And you don't need a tray for either, not even a neckstrap. I never did like neckstraps. | Nothing stopping anyone using their big toe, but the pros don't fumble | with their fumbs. Some do, from what I've seen. Well, to be more precise, they sometimes use their thumbs, but usually don't fumble. But yes, a far higher percentage of the `pros' use their finger/thumb than do in the general R/C flier population, and I doubt this is a conicidence.  SignatureDoug McLaren, dougmc@frenzied.us No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr > Some do, from what I've seen. Well, to be more precise, they > sometimes use their thumbs, but usually don't fumble. But yes, a far > higher percentage of the `pros' use their finger/thumb than do in the > general R/C flier population, and I doubt this is a conicidence. I'm in the "do whatever you want" camp, but I always felt insecure, and like I would slip and crash, if I used my thumbs. SignatureJim in NC Simple answer I would have thought! If you hold your Tx then you have only your thumbs available. Use a neck strap, then you have spare fingers. P > Simple answer I would have thought! > If you hold your Tx then you have only your thumbs available. > Use a neck strap, then you have spare fingers. If you are going to be sensible then we are not going to talk to you. Seriously.... I do use a neck strap and just use my thumbs, never slipped off a stick yet and it feels both comfortable and natural. However, unlike some I never said this was the only approved method, or anything less than using finger and thumb was inviting disaster. There are those who do... and there are those who don't and I would be amazed if some top display pilots don't fly with just thumbs on the sticks. Reg Snip > There are those who do... and there are those who don't and I would be > amazed if some top display pilots don't fly with just thumbs on the > sticks. > > Reg If you look at the pictures in the model magazines I feel sure that you will see some showing pilots doing just that... ...or perhaps my aged memory is playing tricks yet again. Malcolm >>> One more thing, would anybody have an opinion as to the use of a flight >>> sim, AeroFly Pro Deluxe / RealFlight G3 for laying the basics down over [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Do you steer your car or bicycle with your thumb? No! Sometimes. I've steered it with my knees as well, and on a bike, without any hands on the bars at all. Ive even stereed it with ny rase pedalling backwards sitting on the bars. You steer a bike with your body. The handlebars are there to stop falling over. There are more ways to skin cats than just one. > It's a bad habit to get into. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> Master that and the real life situation will seem easy to you. >> P > I've steered it with my knees as well, and on a bike, without any hands on > the bars at all. Ive even stereed it with ny rase pedalling backwards > sitting on the bars. What a rase lohe ! SignatureDave (Sgt. Pepper) Epsom, England Nikon D2X / D2Hs / D2H / D100 / Coolpix 5700 My photo galleries at http://www.pbase.com/davecq "I will not tolerate intolerance ... Doh!!" Can of worms time..... some manufacturers put buttons on the top of the sticks so you obviously can't use your thumbs, others knurl the tops of the sticks to give your thumb a good grip. Sticks are also adjustable for length, short for thumbs on top, long for finger and thumb. Obviously there is no authoritive way to use your transmitter sticks or they would all be the same! Do whatever is right for you, it's your hobby and there are enough regulations in this world! Dave :^) p.s. Thumb man since first Futaba 6M 27AM Actually all, I find i can fly the plane either way - thumbs only or finger and thumb! So it makes no difference to me. Also, the plane HAS flown, and nt just the one. If you actually read the initial post you'll have seen i wrote: <snip> I've actually flown this plane on a few occasions before this with a nearby club, but this was around 2 years ago, and unfortunately on the last outing it suffered a battery failure - the battery lead disconnected after a steep turn - and it ended up plouging the nearby field. </snip> The plane, other than repairing what little damage there was, hasnt been touched since the crash. AFAIK, the trim was correct at time of the crash, and as such is still the same. Also, having learnt and earned a real-world PPL back when i was 17, i think i know that the ailierons are working correctly, and that the elevators move upwards to climb, and downwards to loose altitutde - i may be a novice R/C flyer, but please dont treat me like im the new boy at school, its very off putting for a newcommer to this part of the web! And I thougth that elevators controled speed!! Pull back on the stick to slow down...Stick held back in a glider does not normaly lead to height increase. Also, having learnt and > earned a real-world PPL back when i was 17, i think i know that the > ailierons are working correctly, and that the elevators move upwards to > climb, and downwards to loose altitutde - i may be a novice R/C flyer, > but please dont treat me like im the new boy at school, its very off > putting for a newcommer to this part of the web! > Actually all, > > I find i can fly the plane either way - thumbs only or finger and > thumb! So it makes no difference to me. Use your thumbs if you want, but you'll likely have to take them off the controls when you flick flap, undercarriage or rate switches etc. on future planes. TXs are designed for thumb+ index operation and the crucial switches can usually be reached with the middle finger or very quickly with the index. If you use your thumbs you have to let go of the transmitter completely with one hand. > Also, the plane HAS flown, and nt just the one. If you actually read > the initial post you'll have seen i wrote: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > field. > </snip> > The plane, other than repairing what little damage there was, hasnt > been touched since the crash. AFAIK, the trim was correct at time of > the crash, and as such is still the same. Unlikely. Chances are the trims on both the TX and the plane have changed. In two years disuse the wings will probably have changed warp, if they weren't dinged in the crash as well. Check for correct washout on the wingtips too which presumably you have built in. If you haven't, then trim both ailerons about 2mm above the rest of the trailing edge (if your wing is flat), to counteract tip-stalling. > Also, having learnt and > earned a real-world PPL back when i was 17, i think i know that the > ailierons are working correctly, and that the elevators move upwards to > climb, and downwards to loose altitutde - i may be a novice R/C flyer, > but please dont treat me like im the new boy at school, its very off > putting for a newcommer to this part of the web! Well I found that it's better to presume a novice doesn't know and tell him stuff he already knows than assume he does and watch him make an obvious mistake. I taught an active airline pilot to fly models, and he was no better than the average novice. Every full size pilot I know that tried models has commented that they found it more difficult than full size. (btw, I also did a number of solos in gliders when I was 16) The back to front elevator setup I referred to was the result of someone who taught himself teaching a group of other people that "up was up" on the controls. I notice that you gave up on models for two years after the crash: I found that preparing a novice to half expect his first plane to crash, softened the disappointment and got them going on the next plane immediately. There are very few novices who don't deck their .40 size plane, either terminally or repairably, like you did. As for those people advocating teaching yourself (not you, because you rightly don't intend to), sure, many people do it, but a .40 size trainer isn't the plane for it. It is not unknown for people to try out their 3KG missile on a housing estate playground or next to a main road. >> Actually all, >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > If you use your thumbs you have to let go of the transmitter completely > with one hand. Bull$hit! Different folks - different strokes -accept it! wether you fly thumbs or thumb finger you may have to let go to adjust trims/menus etc. I suppose you think all transmitters should be made Mode 1 or perhaps Mode 2 but not let people have choice? Your way may be best for you, but not for everyone. I know modellers who have struggled to learn to fly for years only because their mentor flies mode "x" while mode "y" was natural for them. Grow up and don't try to enforce what you think is right on others, the Gestapo disappeared years ago! Give advice if you want, but, don't try to make rules! Rant over! >> Also, the plane HAS flown, and nt just the one. If you actually read >> the initial post you'll have seen i wrote: [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > It is not unknown for people to try out their 3KG missile on a housing > estate playground or next to a main road. Snip > Bull$hit! Different folks - different strokes -accept it! wether you fly > thumbs or thumb finger you may have to let go to adjust trims/menus etc. I [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > make rules! > Rant over! Well said Mark. I'm glad to know that there are folks out there with some common sense... Malcolm > >> Actually all, > >> [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > > It is not unknown for people to try out their 3KG missile on a housing > > estate playground or next to a main road. Oops! Made a right mess of my posts there. Got names mixed up and then sent a message back before making my apology Malcolm > Oops! > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Malcolm I'll have a pint of that! Dave :^) > > Oops! > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I'll have a pint of that! > Dave :^) Wouldn't advise a pint - I only had a short... Malcolm > >> Actually all, > >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > make rules! > Rant over! Fly your plane with the trannie's stick up your bum, if that's what you enjoy, but like I said: Most transmitters are designed for thumb-index flying and the switches layed out so you can reach them best that way. Mode 2 closest resembles the full size. I didn't design the transmitters, so don't blame me if it makes it less convenient for fumb fumblers. > >> Also, the plane HAS flown, and nt just the one. If you actually read > >> the initial post you'll have seen i wrote: [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > It is not unknown for people to try out their 3KG missile on a housing > > estate playground or next to a main road. <snip> Fly your plane with the trannie's stick up your bum, if that's what you enjoy, but like I said: Most transmitters are designed for thumb-index flying and the switches layed out so you can reach them best that way. Mode 2 closest resembles the full size. I didn't design the transmitters, so don't blame me if it makes it less convenient for fumb fumblers. <snip> Ooh err missus! a dummy/pram moment! perhaps you would like to show me in ANY transmitter manual where it states how you have to hold the sticks, except the multiplex with the optional buttons. I and I'm sure others on this ng remember radios advertised, boasting of knurled stick ENDS for extra grip. Manufacturers would not limit themselves to a market of finger/thumb fliers and miss out on the "fumb fumblers". Perhaps you would like to post a picture of how you hold a transmitter without neckstrap or tray while using finger and thumb at the same time as operating switches. I've tried it with three different brands of transmitter without success, can anyone else confirm this or name a trnsmitter where this is possible? I think you're talking out of your ar$e! Dave :^) p.s. my 8 year old daughter spotted that "layed" should be spelt laid, actually! Dear Gestapo, have a look at this website http://www.fusionmodels.co.uk/trannie_sticks.html now go away, lie down, and say to yourself 100 times "I must not be so anal" Dave :^) Flying how I want! On Sat, 18 Nov 2006 21:28:22 -0000, "Dave :^\)" <yourejoking@NOSPAM.noway> wrote: >have a look at this website >http://www.fusionmodels.co.uk/trannie_sticks.html Cool sticks. You would think that the new Futaba FX-40 would come with the GOLD sticks standard.. ;) SignatureDavid - WD4JKH Valid email: no-spam0879@mindspring.com > Dear Gestapo, > have a look at this website > http://www.fusionmodels.co.uk/trannie_sticks.html > now go away, lie down, and say to yourself 100 times > "I must not be so anal" > Dave :^) Flying how I want! Dear Dipstick, Of course you can fly how you want, you can also type the keyboard and pick your nose with your thumbs if you prefer. If you find the Nintendo way easier, use it. Knurled stick tops are also useful for those who fly index-thumb with the thumb partially on the top and the index against the back of the stick,btw. ><snip> > Fly your plane with the trannie's stick up your bum, if that's what you [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > convenient for fumb fumblers. ><snip> > Ooh err missus! a dummy/pram moment! perhaps you would like to show me in > ANY transmitter [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > this is possible? I think you're talking out of your ar$e! > Dave :^) I will confirm it ! I tried both a Futaba and a Hitec Tx today. I fly by thumb alone but when I tried holding the sticks as advised by "Super Instructor", or whatever he is, I found that it was very difficult to reach any of the switches, knobs, etc. In order to move e.g. the trainer switch I had to let go of the stick on that side. In order to reach any of the switches, knobs, while keeping my finger and thumb on the sticks then I ended up holding the Tx with just my little fingers supporting it underneath. I doubt a strap would make much difference. If you want to operate with finger and thumb control on the sticks the I reckon a Tx tray is damn near necessary in order to do it properly. Leaving my thumbs and fingers on the sticks meant I had no leverage with the middle finger that was trying to move switches. Could be that my Tx has warped in the two years since I last straightened it with a hammer I suppose >:-) If the "super instructor", or whatever he is, is actually in a club I bet it has a membership of 1 ??? Would you want to fly with a guy who has banana shaped wings 'cos the plane is 2 years old ? Reg "Super Instructor", ROFLMAO! <snip> > Would you want to fly with a guy who has banana shaped wings 'cos the > plane is 2 years old ? > > Reg <snip> I would Reg, we'll have to organise something next summer. Dave :^) p.s. Gestapo, if you're reading this, you owe me a gear switch for a Futaba Challenger, I dropped it while trying your neck strap/trayless transmitter manipulation techniques! > "Super Instructor", ROFLMAO! > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Challenger, I dropped it while trying your neck strap/trayless transmitter > manipulation techniques! LOL It's good to find S O Else with some common sense. Perhaps I should amend that - I had enough sense not to try using finger and thumb without a tray - I just couldn't see how to support the Tx if I used that method of operation :-))) Malcolm > > "Super Instructor", ROFLMAO! > > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > thumb without a tray - I just couldn't see how to support the Tx if I used > that method of operation :-))) If you have trouble seeing as well as dexterity problems then RC cars might be a more suitable hobby for you. > Malcolm > If you have trouble seeing as well as dexterity problems then RC cars > might be a more suitable hobby for you. I have no problems with actual vision - pity you don't understand colloquial usage. As for RC cars, vision is equally important I also have no dexterity problem - I can use either thumbs or finger and thumb on my Tx sticks - it's just that I, and most of the people in whose company I have flown, prefer thumbs and in over nearly forty years of operation, I have never "fumbled". Malcolm >> If you have trouble seeing as well as dexterity problems then RC cars >> might be a more suitable hobby for you. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Malcolm I've seen people play guitars with their teeth..there is no 'right' way to do anything. Just ways, all of which have advantages and disadvantages. >>> If you have trouble seeing as well as dexterity problems then RC cars >>> might be a more suitable hobby for you. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > I've seen people play guitars with their teeth..there is no 'right' way > to do anything. Just ways, all of which have advantages and disadvantages. Spot on that man ! >:-) I also get cards from a charity which are painted by people using their mouth or feet.... our "friend" would have them whipped into a more normal method if they attended his club ! Reg > ><snip> > > Fly your plane with the trannie's stick up your bum, if that's what you [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > difficult to reach any of the switches, knobs, etc. In order to move > e.g. the trainer switch I had to let go of the stick on that side. It's no problem with the sets I use. > In order to reach any of the switches, knobs, while keeping my finger > and thumb on the sticks then I ended up holding the Tx with just my > little fingers supporting it underneath. I doubt a strap would make much > difference. If you want to operate with finger and thumb control on the > sticks the I reckon a Tx tray is damn near necessary in order to do it > properly. Well since you have apparently spent your whole modelling life flying with thumbs, you're sure not going to be able to change to what's generally accepted as the more precise method in a few minutes. Do as you please. > Leaving my thumbs and fingers on the sticks meant I had no leverage with > the middle finger that was trying to move switches. ??? > Could be that my Tx has warped in the two years since I last > straightened it with a hammer I suppose >:-) If you can't flick the switches easily with one finger there's got to be something wrong with it (or your finger), or it's a cheapo with stiff switches. > If the "super instructor", or whatever he is, is actually in a club I > bet it has a membership of 1 ??? It's about 30 at the moment. > Would you want to fly with a guy who has banana shaped wings 'cos the > plane is 2 years old ? I'd certainly keep one eye on your plane when you are flying. If you read the OP's first post you'll find he's had to repair the wing after a crash. A few hours ago we straightened out a chap's tailplane under the car exhaust because it had warped so badly in storage. > Reg >> If the "super instructor", or whatever he is, is actually in a club I >> bet it has a membership of 1 ??? > > It's about 30 at the moment. Thirty ! Thirty out of shape planes and dropped transmitters, now that's what I would imagine is a GOOD day at your field. Does the club have an open day ? It sounds to be better entertainment than the Simpsons.... similar but somehow better >:-)) >> Would you want to fly with a guy who has banana shaped wings 'cos the >> plane is 2 years old ? > > I'd certainly keep one eye on your plane when you are flying. O.K so.... you are keeping one eye on my plane and one eye on your own so how do you find the Tx you just dropped ? > If you read the OP's first post you'll find he's had to repair the wing > after a crash. > > A few hours ago we straightened out a chap's tailplane under the car > exhaust because it had warped so badly in storage. I guess funny shaped model planes are endemic in your club ! You haven't been teaching building techniques as well, have you ? Now I have to go figure what the hell is wrong with my building technique that prevents me doing the sort of things you do at your club. Why don't I have to steam my models and then iron them every few months? Remember.... when building model planes it's the PLANS that roll up NOT the model when you have finished it !!! Reg > Leaving my thumbs and fingers on the sticks meant I had no leverage with > the middle finger that was trying to move switches. Ere Tux! You wanna get on the M25 to get some practice out of that middle finger !!! From the age of 8, my ole' man tought me to use my finger and thumb - haven't used anything since. Would try to teach others the same, but if they are not comfortable with it, doesn't matter as long as they are par-taking in the hobby ;-) Tim > Ere Tux! You wanna get on the M25 to get some practice out of that middle > finger !!! Been there - done that and developed a blind eye >:-) > From the age of 8, my ole' man tought me to use my finger and thumb - > haven't used anything since. Would try to teach others the same, but if they > are not comfortable with it, doesn't matter as long as they are par-taking > in the hobby ;-) Too true, unfortunately our "good friend" doesn't think that any method other than rigidly gripping the sticks twixt finger and thumb is acceptable. We were trying to point out that his supposition doesn't apply to everyone. Indeed do that which works and feels right for you we said.... but that appears not to be an acceptable idea. It also seems mandatory to have banana shaped wings.... don't know why >:-)) Besides it's raining, windy and bloody useless for flying >:-) Reg > > Ere Tux! You wanna get on the M25 to get some practice out of that middle > > finger !!! [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Reg Elliptical dihedral was in vogue about forty years ago and if that is a description of banana shaped wings I can go along with that :-))) Malcolm > > Ere Tux! You wanna get on the M25 to get some practice out of that middle > > finger !!! [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > other than rigidly gripping the sticks twixt finger and thumb is > acceptable. ??? If you can't fly index-thumb, then what's widest accepted as the more precise way has to give way to the easier one. I'd be failing a noob if I didn't get him to try the former first. Not come across a single one who couldn't do it right from the start > We were trying to point out that his supposition doesn't > apply to everyone. Indeed do that which works and feels right for you we > said.... but that appears not to be an acceptable idea. It also seems > mandatory to have banana shaped wings.... don't know why >:-)) Sure, it's intuitive to just grab the transmitter and prod with the thumbs, but then it's also more intuitive to hold a golf club like an axe and a fork like a spear. > Besides it's raining, windy and bloody useless for flying >:-) > > Reg > ??? If you can't fly index-thumb, then what's widest accepted as the > more precise way has to give way to the easier one. > I'd be failing a noob if I didn't get him to try the former first. Not > come across a single one who couldn't do it right from the start It's only more precise to those who advocate it... that's 'cos it FEELS right to them. To those who find it feels far from right then it is a cumbersome and imprecise method because it doesn't work for them. It's not brain science... you pick the damned thing up and a couple of minutes playing establish the most effective method for THAT person. Those bludgeoned into using it by your good self, 'cos they're newbies and go along with what they are told, may in fact be hampered for life by your interference.... all those potential display, aerobatic and 3D pilots messsed up right at the start ! You sound like the old fashioned teachers who made left handed kids write with the right hand 'cos that was the proper way to do it ! They got belted everytime they used their right hand for anything. > Sure, it's intuitive to just grab the transmitter and prod with the > thumbs, but then it's also more intuitive to hold a golf club like an > axe and a fork like a spear. Ah, I see you don't understand that either.... The golf club is held like an axe 'cos the player is showing his true feelings towards the game.... just watch them on telly and count how many times they smile - nuff said ! The fork is indeed used as a spear, it's an eel fork and that is the way it is used to catch them. Reg > > ??? If you can't fly index-thumb, then what's widest accepted as the > > more precise way has to give way to the easier one. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > your interference.... all those potential display, aerobatic and 3D > pilots messsed up right at the start ! If you'd actually looked into it, you'd have found that those who change, virtually always change to index-thumbs, not the other way around. Why do you think that might be? > You sound like the old fashioned teachers who made left handed kids > write with the right hand 'cos that was the proper way to do it ! > They got belted everytime they used their right hand for anything. ITYM "left".... > > Sure, it's intuitive to just grab the transmitter and prod with the > > thumbs, but then it's also more intuitive to hold a golf club like an [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > The fork is indeed used as a spear, it's an eel fork and that is the way > it is used to catch them. So that's how you eat? Do you use a knife? > Reg Big Snip > So that's how you eat? Do you use a knife? Yes, and a spoon - forks were a very late introduction to eating etiquette, but that doesn't make them mandatory. Malcolm > Big Snip > > > > So that's how you eat? Do you use a knife? > > Yes, and a spoon - forks were a very late introduction to eating etiquette, > but that doesn't make them mandatory. So who said anything is mandatory? Index-thumb is simply accepted as the more precise method and it's usable by all noobs (also useful if they start on heli, or if they take up full-size, which is *never* flown with thumbs). Like I said: Thumbers convert to index-thumb but next to nobody converts to the thumb way, explain that. > Malcolm >> Big Snip >> > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Like I said: Thumbers convert to index-thumb but next to nobody > converts to the thumb way, explain that. Dear Anally retentive, I notice you've dropped all reference to "without a tray or neckstrap" Our club which has fliers of both persuasions had a test session, "without a tray or neckstrap" and ALL found it totally impractical. Without good support for the body of the transmitter, the movement of one stick caused a movement of the transmitter which was transferred to the other stick, not very good for precise control. Dave :^) p.s. I'm teaching my 12 year old autistic son to fly, your reluctance to accept others views is one of his traits, as is an inability to mix socially. I think you may need a check up! >> Malcolm > >> Big Snip > >> > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Dear Anally retentive, > I notice you've dropped all reference to "without a tray or neckstrap" ??? Because it's not relevant, Mr.Nintendo. Unless you've got a disability neither is necessary for flying Index-thumb. > Our club which has fliers of both persuasions had a test session, "without a > tray or neckstrap" and ALL found it totally impractical. Well our club don't (and btw. I did NOT even teach most of them at this one). > Without good > support for the body of the transmitter, the movement of one stick caused a > movement of the transmitter which was transferred to the other stick, not > very good for precise control. Cobblers. They just aren't relaxed. Fly Nintendo if you want, though. > Dave :^) > p.s. I'm teaching my 12 year old autistic son to fly, your reluctance to > accept others views is one of his traits, as is an inability to mix > socially. I think you may need a check up! And I bet you're teaching him to fly the way you do. As for a correlation between "mixing socially" and flying thumbs. It's the way people start when they try to learn on their own. You forgot to answer this: "Thumbers convert to index-thumb but next to nobody tries to converts to the thumb way, explain that." > >> Malcolm > Like I said: Thumbers convert to index-thumb but next to nobody > converts to the thumb way, explain that. How do you know? Have you done a survey? Oops! Couldn't resist!! Allan > > Like I said: Thumbers convert to index-thumb but next to nobody > > converts to the thumb way, explain that. > > How do you know? Have you done a survey? It's called a "google search" though you are, of course, free to use any search engine.... > Oops! Couldn't resist!! > > Allan >> How do you know? Have you done a survey? > > It's called a "google search" though you are, of course, free to use > any search engine.... So, as a matter of interest what were the a) numbers using thumbs? b) numbers using index-thumbs? and c) those using neither (i.e. index only)? What were the total number of people asked and how many responded? Thanks Allan Allan, Sensible question! (number asked = 1?) Markzoom? One of the best bit's of advice in the world ever, " when in a hole stop digging" You're impressing no-one but yourself!, as for Nintendo? you may play computer games all you want but I'd rather go out and fly. IMHO I find computer games a rather sad alternative to real life, but if that's what you're into, then I hope you enjoy them. Dave :^) unofficial candidate for the common sense party. Actually I think he is just a timewaster out to provoke response and having fun at our expense Allan > Allan, > Sensible question! [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > you're into, then I hope you enjoy them. > Dave :^) unofficial candidate for the common sense party. > Actually I think he is just a timewaster out to provoke response and > having fun at our expense > > Allan Welcome to the party! Dave :^) >Actually I think he is just a timewaster out to provoke response and having >fun at our expense I found the following paragraphs in an old flying book called, "Learn to Fly by The Seat of Your Pants" by Hamish A McGobligan Jr, 1908. "The thumb and forefinger method of control can give reasonably accurate control, but only if you are certain you don't accidentally have both legs down the same side of your underpants. It's a mistake that's all to easy to make on a cold morning and the results can be catastrophic. Careful checks should be made before each flight as your plane will have a tendency to pull to the left or right (depending on which side your underpants both your legs are down). If you want to avoid mistakes entirely, wear a kilt." The book goes on to say that one should always keep an watchful eye on the orientation of one's head, one's @rse and the transmitter. Failure to do so can cause a variety of upsets when one least expects it, especially when teaching others how to fly." It's all true. I swear it! Travec. >>Actually I think he is just a timewaster out to provoke response and >>having [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Travec. ROFLPMSL > Allan, > Sensible question! [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > " when in a hole stop digging" > You're impressing no-one but yourself! Who's trying to impress? >, as for Nintendo? you may play > computer games all you want but I'd rather go out and fly. IMHO I find > computer games a rather sad alternative to real life, but if that's what > you're into, then I hope you enjoy them. I've never used a Nintendo, but that clearly went over your head. > Dave :^) unofficial candidate for the common sense party. Common sense would be doing a google on it yourself, since you apparently care that much. > >> How do you know? Have you done a survey? > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Allan It was a google search, not a survey. I found plenty of thumbers switching to index-thumb, but not a single one switching to thumbs from index-thumb. I read accounts of two different aerobatic competitors changing over and noticing a great improvement with index-thumb. In the US, there seem to be marginally more people using thumbs. As would be expected, many got used that method before they twigged there was another way. It seems likely that thumbs will get more followers in the UK too, as small electric artf planes are now readily, cheaply and widely available even in toy shops that make joining a club or any tuition basically unnecessary. A few of these people will likely progress onto bigger IC planes and continue flying the Nintendo way. > It was a google search, not a survey. I found plenty of thumbers > switching to index-thumb, but not a single one switching to thumbs from > index-thumb. > I read accounts of two different aerobatic competitors changing over > and noticing a great improvement with index-thumb. Yet there are still plenty who only use their thumbs. Perhaps your search didn't reach everyone of either persuasion. > In the US, there seem to be marginally more people using thumbs. As > would be expected, many got used that method before they twigged there [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > basically unnecessary. A few of these people will likely progress onto > bigger IC planes and continue flying the Nintendo way. Who is this great teacher Nintendo? I've never heard of him/her. BTW, I was looking back at the series of articles produced as inserts in RCM&E some years ago, written by Bill Birkenshaw et al. In one of the pictures showing teacher and trainee using a buddy box system, both were using thumbs. As has been said ad nauseam - use what you feel is the best way for you - whatever that is. Malcolm >It seems likely that thumbs will get more followers in the UK too, as >small electric artf planes are now readily, cheaply and widely >available even in toy shops that make joining a club or any tuition >basically unnecessary. I've lurked on this thread for a while but I simply must take issue with that one. The fact that a plane is small, electric or artf doesn't in any way preclude the need for beginners' instruction, as I found out some time ago to my cost. You're clearly making this up as you go along mate. I would seriously give up now if I were you. Travec > >It seems likely that thumbs will get more followers in the UK too, as > >small electric artf planes are now readily, cheaply and widely > >available even in toy shops that make joining a club or any tuition > >basically unnecessary. > I've lurked on this thread for a while but I simply must take issue > with that one. The fact that a plane is small, electric or artf [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Travec What do you think happens to all dem planes on Ebay and in toy shops ?: You rarely see them at clubs. tinyurl.com/h3vag Down to 22 quid including charger and postage. Thats cheaper than joining a club with insurance. Of course people should get tuition, and you found out why, but *they* will find it unnecessary to bother, just like you didn't. And I bet you're flying thumbs now too. > What do you think happens to all dem planes on Ebay and in toy shops ?: > You rarely see them at clubs. Most fly ones or twice, for a flight of a few seconds or a few minutes, before the non pilot smashes them into a million bits. SignatureJim in NC > > What do you think happens to all dem planes on Ebay and in toy shops ?: > > You rarely see them at clubs. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > -- > Jim in NC And that, boys and girls, is why you should teach people how to fly them, the best way you know how. >>> What do you think happens to all dem planes on Ebay and in toy shops ?: >>> You rarely see them at clubs. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > And that, boys and girls, is why you should teach people how to fly > them, the best way you know how. Two statements not at all based on fact. > >>> What do you think happens to all dem planes on Ebay and in toy shops ?: > >>> You rarely see them at clubs. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > > Two statements not at all based on fact. And the facts are? >>>>> What do you think happens to all dem planes on Ebay and in toy shops ?: >>>>> You rarely see them at clubs. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > And the facts are? 1/. Most fly several times, (I assume that 'ones' is supposed to be ONCE) and survive well enough to either enthuse the customer for something better, or make him feel its all a bit more than he cares to get involved with. 2/. And that, boys and girls, is why an instructor is not really necessary at all. >> What do you think happens to all dem planes on Ebay and in toy shops ?: >> You rarely see them at clubs. > > Most fly ones or twice, for a flight of a few seconds or a few minutes, > before the non pilot smashes them into a million bits. Not according to my LHS, who reckon that the people who buy them don;t come back anything like as much as the guys who by 40 ARTF 'trainers' - so called. Actually fast heavy and very dangerous weapons of minor destruction, with a propensity to quit at bad moments. | What do you think happens to all dem planes on Ebay and in toy shops ?: They fly for 15 seconds, then crash. | You rarely see them at clubs. No, you don't normally see crashed planes at clubs. You might see a plane crash, but once it crashes it doesn't usually come back until it's repaired. Of course, if you just buy a plane and crash it 15 seconds later, often it's never repaired, even if repairable ... Some clubs are also hostile to the small electric planes. However, the local glow club was quite fascinated by my Ultrastick 25e -- it's not that big, but it's still the biggest electric that many of them had seen. And it flew very nicely ... I do understand that you can teach yourself to fly with the right plane (slow, foam, prop in back, simulator time) but any sort of instruction greatly assists the process. SignatureDoug McLaren, dougmc@frenzied.us "I often quote myself; it adds spice to my conversation." -- George Bernard Shaw > | What do you think happens to all dem planes on Ebay and in toy shops ?: > > They fly for 15 seconds, then crash. Most likely. > | You rarely see them at clubs. > > No, you don't normally see crashed planes at clubs. You might see a > plane crash, but once it crashes it doesn't usually come back until > it's repaired. Of course, if you just buy a plane and crash it 15 > seconds later, often it's never repaired, even if repairable ... Yup. > Some clubs are also hostile to the small electric planes. Sadly true. > However, > the local glow club was quite fascinated by my Ultrastick 25e -- it's > not that big, but it's still the biggest electric that many of them > had seen. And it flew very nicely ... I find them just as much fun as any other type of RC aircraft. Much simpler in the winter coz your hands (especially the t h u m b s) dont get so cold like they do with IC planes, and you get to warm them on the batteries afterwards. > I do understand that you can teach yourself to fly with the right > plane (slow, foam, prop in back, simulator time) but any sort of > instruction greatly assists the process. Absolutely. The point is that a *lot* of people try to start with these on their own nowdays (using thumbs) and some go on to a club and try bigger stuff. > -- > Doug McLaren, dougmc@frenzied.us > "I often quote myself; it adds spice to my conversation." > -- George Bernard Shaw > Of course people should get tuition, and you found out why, but *they* > will find it unnecessary to bother, just like you didn't. And I bet > you're flying thumbs now too. Troll O Meter 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ___________________________________________________ | | | | | | | | | | | --------------------------------------------------- ^ | > > Of course people should get tuition, and you found out why, but *they* > > will find it unnecessary to bother, just like you didn't. And I bet [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > --------------------------------------------------- > ^ ??? The vast majority of people who teach themselves, fly with thumbs. How is that a "troll"? It also stands to reason that a stranger who is a "thumb flier" is less *LIKELY* to be aquainted with all the aspects of RC flight, including safety ones, even if he can by now fly the plane. And that's not a troll either, just logic you might find uncomfortable. | >>> Of course people should get tuition, and you found out why, but *they* >>> will find it unnecessary to bother, just like you didn't. And I bet [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > safety ones, even if he can by now fly the plane. And that's not a > troll either, just logic you might find uncomfortable. Troll O Meter Updated Reading 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ___________________________________________________ | | | | | | | | | | | --------------------------------------------------- ^ | > >>> Of course people should get tuition, and you found out why, but *they* > >>> will find it unnecessary to bother, just like you didn't. And I bet [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > ^ > | Dave, you are far too conservative. I think your troll meter needs recalibrating... :-))) Malcolm > "Dave Lane" <pss005@bangor.ac.uk> wrote in message > <snip> >> Troll O Meter Updated Reading >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > :-))) it's a logarithmic scale.... :+) >> It seems likely that thumbs will get more followers in the UK too, as >> small electric artf planes are now readily, cheaply and widely [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Travec I wonder how the first ever RC pilot ever got his training? Training has never been necessary, just a way to prevent complete noobs armed with 40 powered spitfires from demolishing the row of grinning spectators (and their cars) when he maidens it. With a lone guy away from a club armed with a piece of 12oz foamie crap with a can motor stuck up its arse, who cares? If he wants to fly it, he will eventually learn, or if he doesn't give up in disgust..who cares? Ive never has a single second of instruction from anyone..and I can fly well enough to pass the B test, if I could ever be bothered to take it. | I wonder how the first ever RC pilot ever got his training? He probably had experience with CL and/or FF first. In fact, he probably took a FF plane and added some rudder control, and was absolutely tickled pink when he had some small amount of input on where the plane went, and even if the plane crashed, he probably considered that flight to be a resounding success. But I'm guessing that's not the answer you're looking for ... Of course, you could look at the history of (full scale) aviation itself -- several of the pioneers died in their contraptions, even before the Wright Brothers made their historic flight. They didn't know how to build their planes, how to fly them -- this stuff had to be worked out by trial and error, and errors often hurt. | Training has never been necessary, just a way to prevent complete noobs | armed with 40 powered spitfires from demolishing the row of grinning | spectators (and their cars) when he maidens it. With a 0.40 powered Spitfire or almost any other 0.40 powered plane (except for the 0.40 sized foamies and spads, but even they won't survive every crash) you'd better get some sort of instruction, or your first crash will demolish the plane. If you're determined enough you may get the hang of it, but you'd better be really determined and have a good sized budget to figure it all out on your own. | With a lone guy away from a club armed with a piece of 12oz foamie crap | with a can motor stuck up its arse, who cares? If he wants to fly it, he | will eventually learn, or if he doesn't give up in disgust..who cares? I'll bet he cares. Maybe he'll figure it all out, maybe he'll give up in disgust. If you don't care, maybe you're not the best person to tell everybody that they don't need instruction? Technically, you're right -- people *do* succeed without instruction. But any sort of instruction, even just a few pointers from a friend who watches or some time on a simulator, can make the learning curve a lot less painful. Yes, things have gotten a lot easier, with foamies becoming common and cheap and being so light that they can survive most crashes. But even so, instruction helps. | Ive never has a single second of instruction from anyone..and I can fly | well enough to pass the B test, if I could ever be bothered to take it. And that's great. But most people new to the hobby are not you. How many times did you have to repair your plane before you got the hang of things? (And what's the `B test' anyways?) SignatureDoug McLaren, dougmc@frenzied.us Controller: "Air Force 53, it appears your engine has.... disregard transmission, I see you've already ejected." > | I wonder how the first ever RC pilot ever got his training? > [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > (And what's the `B test' anyways?) (This thread is crossposted to two RC aircraft groups, a GB and a mainly US one) The "b" test is an achievement scheme: http://www.bmfa.org/handbook/hbook_7.html The 'B' Certificate which is designed to recognise the pilot's more advanced ability and a demonstrated level of safety suitable for flying at a public display'. What some US chaps might not realise is that the UK is far more crowded than the US and RC clubs or individuals here often have to fly from fields close to busy roads or with housing not too far away. Totally agree with your post, btw. I'm wondering how many people here actually have taught someone else to fly? > -- > Doug McLaren, dougmc@frenzied.us > Controller: "Air Force 53, it appears your engine has.... disregard > transmission, I see you've already ejected." > I'm wondering how many people here actually have taught someone else to > fly? I, for one, have taught several people to fly, and some, particularly those who can find more time to practise, now can "outfly" me - but then I only fly for my personal enjoyment and self appointed levels of achievement and have no interest in competition which some of my pupils have indulged. I have always stressed the need for safety and awareness of any bystanders. BTW I know that I could achieve the necessary standard for the BMFA achievement schemes but as already stated I am not interested in competition or displaying to a public audience. In any case I mostly fly alone - not recommended by many - but am prepared to accept any liability for my actions and the consequences should I manage to cause myself any injury. Malcolm er: "Air Force 53, it appears your engine has.... disregard > > transmission, I see you've already ejected." > I'm wondering how many people here actually have taught someone else to > fly? Quite a few, I'm sure. I've met several guys on this group over the years who have taught lots of people to fly. I've taught several people to fly myself. By the way, I'm a thumb flyer, and I am self taught. My brother in law is a finger-thumb guy, and he is also self taught. I always assumed that he used the finger-thumb method because of his personality. It looks more impressive and precise, and he likes that. He's an Air Force officer, so it fits his image, but image is all it amounts to. I've been thinking about what you've said about the difference between the two methods of stick control, and I believe that your entire argument can be summed up in one statement. The less you look like an ape wielding a club, the better. I understand this concept very well because I've met so many people who fall into that line of thinking, but it is based solely on image. Whether you are operating a sophisticated piece of equipment or simply wielding a club, it really doesn't matter what you look like. A lot of people have a similar hangup about proper guitar technique. You are "supposed to" keep your thumb tip against the back of the guitar neck at all times and keep your thumb arched so your palm doesn't touch the neck. However, if you look at some of the most accomplished guitar players you'll notice that a lot of them have their hands wrapped around the neck like an ape with a club. I'm not going to argue with them. These are people who are getting the sound that they want, so how can you tell them they are wrong? The only thing they are really doing wrong is violating somebody's idea of what is proper, just like a thumb flyer. If you hadn't decided that one way must surely be better than the other, which it apparently isn't, there would be no difference between the two methods besides personal preference. > > I'm wondering how many people here actually have taught someone else to > > fly? [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > better than the other, which it apparently isn't, there would be no > difference between the two methods besides personal preference. My defence of the index-thumb grip has nothing to do with "looks". It IS generally accepted as the more precise way (thumbs is supposed to be faster). Novices need precision far more than they need the speed for snap aerobatics. It IS a tiny bit more difficult to get used to for someone starting from scratch. My position remains that unless a novice really has significant problems with grip after the first few flights, he should start on index-thumb. They have to start one way or the other and this is what people change *to* rather than *from* as can be discovered from a few googles. I'm getting bored with this subject so I'll let the thumbers have the last word (and I've just been to the model shop and got a load of gear to get on with!). >I'm getting bored with this subject so I'll let the thumbers have the >last word Thank the Lord! Having totally hijacked this thread with his utterly bovine refusal to accept anyone else's point of view but his own, this geezer now says he is 'bored' with it. Glory be! Hallelujah! But think of this before you go, markzoom. How many people in this entire thread have you converted to your way of thinking? Let me answer that for you. The answer is ZERO. Not one solitary person has changed his mind since the first time you opened your fat gob. You are nothing but a troll. You are the total antithesis of what these newsgroups stands for. Can't you see that banging on endlessly about the same thing just to prove you are right only alienates more and more people? Frankly, whether you *are* right or wrong, you have shown yourself to be a chromium plated @sshat of the first order who refuses to even consider another PoV but his own. I, like many others, will be glad never to hear another word from you. So enjoy building your new models. At least that's something to do with your fingers other than using them to post more of your endless crap here. Someone asked earlier if you are autistic. If you are then I apologise for my rant, but I would ask that your carer(s) take time to censor your online activities a little bit more than of late. Either way, I have to say it will be nice to see the back of you whenever you DO eventually decide to STFU once and for all! Travec. | But think of this before you go, markzoom. How many people in this | entire thread have you converted to your way of thinking? Let me | answer that for you. The answer is ZERO. But that's pretty much the norm for discussions like this -- no matter how reasonable you are, how well reasoned your arguments, how convincing your citations, you're unlikely to convince somebody who has already made up their mind. Sometimes you will, but it's rare. I'm not saying that markzoom isn't a troll -- just that he isn't for the reasons you gave. Really, his problem in this thread was that not only did he not change anybody's mind, but nobody agreed with him in the first place, and yet he still clung to his idea that his way was the only right way, and everybody else was wrong. I went flying today, flying my US 25e and my 100" Impulse electric glider. It was quite windy, but I was still finding plenty of lift for the glider. I hope I can go out again tomorrow! SignatureDoug McLaren, dougmc@frenzied.us "Rehtob," said Pooh, as the transporter malfunctioned. Where did you fly? mk > | But think of this before you go, markzoom. How many people in this > | entire thread have you converted to your way of thinking? Let me [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > glider. It was quite windy, but I was still finding plenty of lift > for the glider. I hope I can go out again tomorrow! | Where did you fly? [ removed the UK from the groups ] Well, there's two clubs I fly at -- the Hill Country Aeromodelers in South Austin, and the Austin Silent Flyers in Pflugerville. I've found that I like flying gliders most of all -- finding lift is fun -- so I went to the ASF field first, but I caught the last person leaving. I much prefer to not fly alone, so I flew for a little while, and then went down to the HCAM field and flew there for a while. Powered planes are fun too, but basically I just poke holes in the sky, and I'm not really so interested in aerobatics, so gliders are more fun.) The most fun of all is slope flying on a good slope with lots of wind and company, but alas with the sale of Dave's place, there hasn't been much slope flying done around here, and I haven't seen any of the regulars in a while. There's still places to fly, but they're either marginal (Murchison middle school) or risky (Mansfield Dam) or far away (Georgetown Dam, Canyon Lake) or require winds that are rarely available this time of year. Today might have been a good day for Mansfield dam -- 10-20 mph S winds -- but my wife wasn't feeling well, so I stayed home with the kids. SignatureDoug McLaren, dougmc@frenzied.us "Bother," said Pooh as he prepared Christopher Robin for human sacrifice. > ... Powered planes are fun too, but basically I just poke holes in the >sky, and I'm not really so interested in aerobatics, so gliders are >more fun.) My buddy and I flew a glider this year up here in Buffalo. We took turns towing it it up with his trainer. We broke it a few times, but not badly enough to scrap. We found some lift every day, but not down low. >The most fun of all is slope flying on a good slope with lots of wind >and company ... Haven't got a good public site for that in our neighborhood. There's one place ~40 miles south of here, but the winds are variable and I think it's mostly for a group of friends. I suppose I ought to go search the Niagara escarpment. I've got a friend with a small airport that hosts a glider club. They may be using slope lift. Marty SignatureThe Big-8 hierarchies (comp, humanities, misc, news, rec, sci, soc, talk) are under new management. See http://www.big-8.org for details. People like markzoom will always exist and try to take over. I think that it takes two to play, hence if he had been ignored then it would never have happened. He was effectively democratically voted in by a trail of responders... People just kept rising to the bait! Allan > People like markzoom will always exist and try to take over. I think that > it takes two to play, hence if he had been ignored then it would never [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Allan But I'd still like to smack him in the face! Dave :^) > People like markzoom will always exist and try to take over. I think that it > takes two to play, hence if he had been ignored then it would never have [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Allan On the other hand, if the discussion hadn't occurred we wouldn't have been treated to the entertaining tantrum on the part of the original poster. That was quite amusing. > I'm getting bored with this subject so I'll let the thumbers have the > last word > (and I've just been to the model shop and got a load of gear to get on > with!). I hope you thumbed through some magazines and catalogues before deciding on your purchases ! Reg > > I'm getting bored with this subject so I'll let the thumbers have the > > last word [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Reg No, I looked on the net and ebay first. I only really get stuff from shops when it's not available or not cheaper on the net these days. You can get the same quality stuff direct from China at a fraction of the price. Occasional bargains to be had at shows too. Hey oop lads! He's doing it again!! Allan >> > I'm getting bored with this subject so I'll let the thumbers have the >> > last word [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > direct from China at a fraction of the price. Occasional bargains to be > had at shows too. >> > I'm getting bored with this subject so I'll let the thumbers have the >> > last word [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > direct from China at a fraction of the price. Occasional bargains to be > had at shows too. There is a local (45 miles away) hobby shop I try to get most stuff from. He'll match or beat most web prices. I mentioned a new Zenoah 20 in another thread, it cost me $280. USD. That's really good. mk(thread hijacking accomplice) > >> > I'm getting bored with this subject so I'll let the thumbers have the > >> > last word [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > He'll match or beat most web prices. I mentioned a new Zenoah 20 in another > thread, it cost me $280. USD. That's really good. A CDI ignition 26cc engine including post from Hong Kong is about $255, a bit less if you buy more than one: Ebay.co.uk item: 280033680861 Still not as cheap as a strimmer/weedcutter engine, cheaper than most glows, a used one can cost nothing in money terms. > mk(thread hijacking accomplice) > If you'd actually looked into it, you'd have found that those who > change, virtually always change to index-thumbs, not the other way > around. Why do you think that might be? Indecision ? Perhaps they change back again without letting on ? people can be soooooo devious. Why would I want to look into it ? I am not very interested in why someone uses thumbs alone as opposed to finger and thumb. I was only responding to someone who seems to think there is only one way to do it. Fancy trawling around the net to see who does what with their finger and thumbs. You really must get a life ! I couldn't give a stuff who does it whichever way... but there again, I wouldn't go spouting that there is only one correct way ! While you are trawling about and believing the things you come across on the net can I just point out that there's this guy in Nigeria that I have heard of. He is looking to transfer a LOAD of money into a bank account here.... I could mention you... he comes across as believable. >> You sound like the old fashioned teachers who made left handed kids >> write with the right hand 'cos that was the proper way to do it ! >> They got belted everytime they used their right hand for anything. > > ITYM "left".... I am pleased to see that you are paying attention then. >> The fork is indeed used as a spear, it's an eel fork and that is the way >> it is used to catch them. > > So that's how you eat? Do you use a knife? I see this one went completely over your head, never mind I can twiddle my thumbs while you catch up. Reg Dear impotent and socially inept, please post the URLs for all these sites where you get your cast in stone information regarding stick manipulation techniques, I can't find any. Perhaps I should add the info to my webpage? Dave :^) > Dear impotent and socially inept, > please post the URLs for all these sites where you get your cast in > stone information regarding stick manipulation techniques, I can't find any. I'm glad you asked for help before attempting to use a search engine but I suggest you get instruction from a more suitable person and not use a Nintendo keypad in your endeavours. > Perhaps I should add the info to my webpage? Excellent idea. Here is a useful link: http://tinyurl.com/zbzyg > Dave :^) > Excellent idea. > Here is a useful link: > > http://tinyurl.com/zbzyg So now you prove that you're talking sh.t, as shown earlier in the thread you are unable to provide any evidence to back up your verbal diahorea. I really hope that someone in your club, if you are actually in a club, knows you from your posts here, if so, they must be pissing themselves at what a tit you're making of yourself. If there is anyone who knows "markzero who has a nintendo fixation" please say hello. Dave :^) > > Excellent idea. > > Here is a useful link: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > say hello. > Dave :^) Hehehe, gotcha! > > If you'd actually looked into it, you'd have found that those who > > change, virtually always change to index-thumbs, not the other way [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > have heard of. He is looking to transfer a LOAD of money into a bank > account here.... I could mention you... he comes across as believable. You might like to refer him to "thescamb aiter.com" or "41 9 e ater.com" (no spaces in either links) who have fun with that kind of thing. I gather one chap managed to dupe a certain "wealthy" africon gent into paying for ten separate shipments of assorted scrap (including dead washing machines, old toilets and broken cookers) to Nigerio. > >> You sound like the old fashioned teachers who made left handed kids > >> write with the right hand 'cos that was the proper way to do it ! [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Reg I learned to fly myself a few years ago, and that was with low wing plane with a .60 glow, not a problem, I never crashed whilst learning. I can fly using both methods, thumb and thumb/finger. I can fly fairly complex 3d manoeuvres using both methods without any hangups. I have teached a few people how to fly since with great success. Use common sense, learn to respect other peoples opinions and 99.9% of the time things will be fine. There enough rules and regulations in this country as is. By all means give friendly advice, but let people be free to think for themselves. > <snip> > Fly your plane with the trannie's stick up your bum, if that's what you [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > without neckstrap or tray while using finger and thumb at the same time as > operating switches. I can't be bothered to post a picture but you can ask a Thumb-index flyer at your club to show you. My Futaba FF8 has 4 switches per side and I can operate all of them with my middle fingers or third fingers. The three dial switches in the middle are a pain either way you hold it. I would have prefered slides there. > I've tried it with three different brands of transmitter > without success, can anyone else confirm this or name a trnsmitter where > this is possible? I think you're talking out of your ar$e! Well it's no problem with my FF8. > Dave :^) > p.s. my 8 year old daughter spotted that "layed" should be spelt laid, > actually! Tell her "well done". Here in GB kids used to be really cr.., err "bad" at spelling. All right kiddies, Just because I mentioned that a PC sim would be a good way of getting thumb practice. I am now very bored listening to all the hot air, but it certainly shook this NG into activity! Now for another controversial topic... About the BFMRA and its forum...............................! P Who? Allan > All right kiddies, > Just because I mentioned that a PC sim would be a good way of getting [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > P So...... I belong to the 'research' division! try anything, me! P > Who? > > Allan >> Now for another controversial topic... >> About the BFMRA and its forum...............................! >> >> P > So...... I belong to the 'research' division! > try anything, me! Ah yes "BFMRA": Brickfield Close , Field Lane , Mulberry Crescent Residents Association BFMRA > P > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >> > >> P Hey oop lads! He's doing it again!! Allan >> So...... I belong to the 'research' division! >> try anything, me! [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> >> >> >> P > Use your thumbs if you want, but you'll likely have to take them off > the controls when you flick flap, undercarriage or rate switches etc. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > If you use your thumbs you have to let go of the transmitter completely > with one hand. By 'eck lad your so full of crap! If Tx are indeed designed for thumb and index finger use only then.... why the hell do they knurl the top of the sticks on many Tx's so that your thumb has a good grip. I guess the manufacturer decided his production team needed the machining practice ? You and your comments are the reason why many people object to statements that the only way to learn is to join a club. If club members are as opinionated and stubborn as you then the last thing they want to do is join a club. All you have done is offer the original poster advice that he neither sought nor needed. Your advice.... that after two years the wings will have warped.... This makes me wonder if you have built model planes, and if you did what sort of state they ended up in ! If your wings have warped after two years then perhaps you had better stick with better designs or alternatively ARTF and hope they were properly built ! I guess the crankshafts on your engines sag out of shape after a few months of non-use. Reg > > Use your thumbs if you want, but you'll likely have to take them off > > the controls when you flick flap, undercarriage or rate switches etc. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > your thumb has a good grip. I guess the manufacturer decided his > production team needed the machining practice ? Nope, they are knurled on top for the thumb users. The switches are however laid out for thumb-index users, go check. A consensus is that "thumbs is easier" and "thumb-forefinger is more precise". Take your pick. Quite a lot of people start off all thumbs and later change to thumb-index, but rarely the other way around. It's really not such a big deal, but look at what the best, and worst, pilots use. There is also a test: Grab the transmitter and look at the ceiling (not the controls). Push the stick exactly into the top left corner without looking a few times. See how accurately you can do it with both methods. > You and your comments are the reason why many people object to > statements that the only way to learn is to join a club. There's a bunch off stuff you won't know unless someone bothers to show you, (and quite a few won't bother). It's sure easier to absorb it here than on the field all at once. Here's a nice site about *teaching* people to fly: http://webpages.charter.net/rcfu/BegInfo/TeachRC.html > If club members are as opinionated and stubborn as you then the last thing > they want to do is join a club. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Your advice.... that after two years the wings will have warped.... They are sure likely to have changed warp slightly if they are built-up film covered ones. I sure wouldn't rely on the presumtion that the trims are spot on because "they were fine when I put them away two years ago after I crashed the plane", would you? > This makes me wonder if you have built model planes, Over 20, most from scratch. > and if you did what > sort of state they ended up in ! I decked my first RC pride and joy on the first outing alone. Some went in because of radio interference etc. Thanks to being kindly given excellent instruction from someone after the first disaster, I have only written off one other plane due to pilot error since 1975 on the first test flight (a hand launched fun fighter Me109, which turned into the ground on launch). > If your wings have warped after two > years then perhaps you had better stick with better designs or > alternatively ARTF and hope they were properly built ! There are a whole bunch of reasons why wings can warp in 2 years storage that have zilch to do with how well they are built. You go presume the trims are still identical after some crash two years ago, and I won't. Most don't even presume them to remain spot on during the flight and on subsequent flights, because it depends on how much fuel there is in the tank, wether there's a lump of sheep sh.t stuck on the wing, it's been standing in the full sun, someone tripped over the plane while you weren't looking, etc.etc.etc. > I guess the crankshafts on your engines sag out of shape after a few > months of non-use. Well you keep guessing. I sure hope you never teach anyone to fly. > Reg RIGHT! enough is enough. Can you children PLEASE stop bloody arguing about fingers, thumbs and thumb fumbling! Whether you use thumbs only, or thumb and index finger the important thing is you're partaking in the hobby, am I not correct? As a new member to this group and new-comer to R/C flight, this really ISN'T what i'd expect from grown up and sensible adults that I expected you all to be! It makes me feel ashamed to think that I am part of this group and to think that I am among those supposed to be experienced enough to tolerate each others quirks and differences. For those of you who HAVE been adult enough to supply USEFUL information, I thank you kindly, and to the others i ask that you grow up and learn to tolerate the differences others may have - at least we're all partaking in the same hobby! I'm going to now offically close this topic, so please no more commets thank you, i've read enough! > It makes me feel ashamed to think that I am part of this group and to > think that I am among those supposed to be experienced enough to > tolerate each others quirks and differences. Don't get the wrong impression of the newsgroup... most people DIDN'T participate in Mr. Thumb-and-fingers-only's troll-fest. There are a lot of good people here and a lot of collective experience. In the future, you might also want to try searching for answers to your questions at: RC Groups ( http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/index.php? -- more electric flight oriented) and RC Universe (http://www.rcuniverse.com/index.cfm -- not my favorite due to heavy and questionable moderation). Good flying, desmobob | Can you children PLEASE stop bloody arguing about fingers, thumbs and | thumb fumbling! Um, dad, most of us haven't been children for many decades. We grew up, we moved out. Many of us are probably even older/more mature than you. | As a new member to this group and new-comer to R/C flight, this | really ISN'T what i'd expect from grown up and sensible adults that | I expected you all to be! And obviously new to Usenet too. | I'm going to now offically close this topic, Good luck with that. | so please no more commets thank you, i've read enough! Don't let the door hit your butt on the way out ... SignatureDoug McLaren, dougmc@frenzied.us "I often quote myself; it adds spice to my conversation." -- George Bernard Shaw some people are just purely childish. seriously, with comments like that in the post above, how am i to get a good impression of my peers! <snip> "Um, dad, most of us haven't been children for many decades. We grew up, we moved out. Many of us are probably even older/more mature than you." </snip> I may be in my early 20's (and actually a father myself thank you!), and a new member to USENET and this particular part of it, but i could damn well assure you that my mental age is far beyond that of the physical age of some of those people posting here! On top of all of that, stupid, and childish comments like that snipped above, in addition to "Good luck with that" and "Don't let the door hit your butt on the way out ..." really do make me think that i dont want to be a part of this at all - i also have a hint that Doug's a typical obnoxious American, in his later years, with the attitude of a 4 year old, and a brain to match... wait, that sounds like President Bush too! Maybe i should stick to the groups that are more welcoming and less hostile to new members.. maybe i should find a new hobby, i dont want to be related to the scum i've seen and heard in this topic. | some people are just purely childish Perhaps, but I'm willing to give you another chance to make a better impression. In any event, statements like `Can you children PLEASE stop bloody arguing about fingers, thumbs and thumb fumbling!' aren't likely to have the effect you're looking for, unless you're actually speaking to your own children, or at least speaking from some sort of position of authority. When speaking to adults like that, it's generally considered to be insulting, at least on this side of the pond, though I'm guessing it's no different on the other side. | seriously, with comments like that in the post above, how am i to | get a good impression of my peers! Well, you could try to post again, this time not trying to be such a condescending twit ... | I may be in my early 20's (and actually a father myself thank you!), | and a new member to USENET and this particular part of it, but i could | damn well assure you that my mental age is far beyond that of the | physical age of some of those people posting here! Of course. The vast majority of people think they're more mature than average (median, to be more precise) -- it's human nature. | On top of all of that, stupid, and childish comments like that snipped | above, in addition to "Good luck with that" ... said in response to `I'm going to now offically [sp] close this topic'. Here's a hint for you -- you don't get to close this topic, at least not officially. Even having made the original post doesn't give you that right. | and "Don't let the door hit your butt on the way out ..." ... said in respond to `so please no more commets [sp] thank you, i've read enough' -- we'll post whatever comments we want, thanks. | really do make me think that i dont want to be a part of this at all Of course. And I wouldn't want you to let the door ... | i also have a hint that Doug's a typical obnoxious American, in his | later years, with the attitude of a 4 year old, and a brain to | match... And I have a hint that you're just upset that you have no special authority here, you're not being given the respect that you feel you deserve, and so now you're flinging random insults on the off chance that something sticks. | wait, that sounds like President Bush too! You sound confused. I take offense at your insults and your attempts to run the group, and now I'm like Bush? Have you considered that maybe you're the one playing Bush's role here, trying to tell the rest of the world what to do? [ was this another attempt at an insult, this time aimed at the entire country? If so, it didn't seem very well thought out, and you're not impressing me. ] | Maybe i should stick to the groups that are more welcoming and less | hostile to new members.. Of course, if you put your foot in your mouth over there like you did here, you'll probably find the response to be similar. This is a generally friendly group. markzoom is not a typical member -- he's pretty new here, but apparantly not to Usenet. Googling for his other posts is quite ... informative (and I never thought to do it until now.) | maybe i should find a new hobby, i dont want to be related to the | scum i've seen and heard in this topic. If you were paying attention, you'd probably have noticed that most of the people participating were generally helpful. Yes, it looks like we were trolled. But that's OK -- it's not the first time, and won't be the last. Life goes on ... SignatureDoug McLaren, dougmc@frenzied.us Smoke me a kipper; I'll be back for breakfast! > This is a generally friendly group. markzoom is not a typical member > -- he's pretty new here, but apparantly not to Usenet. Googling for [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > we were trolled. But that's OK -- it's not the first time, and won't > be the last. Life goes on ... I reckoned it was a deliberate attempt to pass a very wet and windy spell of no flying weather. A touch of cabin fever sets in ! It had to be a troll - but hell, the rains streaming down the windows let's join in. I guess the wannabe "moderator" is another participant in the "banish the boredom stakes". If not then he is following a difficult road ! I have been polite (ish) and not sworn, well hardly at all >:-)) Don't get me started on Bush though..... Reg > > This is a generally friendly group. markzoom is not a typical member > > -- he's pretty new here, but apparantly not to Usenet. Googling for [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Don't get me started on Bush though..... If you're really bored you should check out the politics NGs. The Bush followers are getting a bit thin on the ground there now but plenty of his master's supporters there. > Reg > Maybe i should stick to the groups that are more welcoming and less > hostile to new members.. maybe i should find a new hobby, i dont want > to be related to the scum i've seen and heard in this topic. I will have a pint, no make that two, of whatever you are drinking and just set my feet up and watch awhiles >:-)) Don't you just LOVE usenet ? >:-)) Reg > > Maybe i should stick to the groups that are more welcoming and less > > hostile to new members.. maybe i should find a new hobby, i dont want [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Reg And all that because I suggested he use index and thumb to fly his plane.... |
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