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Model Forum / Radio Controlled / Air Models / November 2006



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Model turbojet characteristics

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Adam Chapman - 18 Nov 2006 18:47 GMT
Hello,
I am taking part in a university group project to design a stealth UAV.
we have selected the Jetcat P-180 engine to use, but we still need to
find some important parameters. All we can seem to find is the fuel
consumption and thrust.
We really need to know the exhaust and intake velocities for operation
at different throttle settings, the exhaust teperature at different
throttle settings, and any information on the noise produced by the
engine.
We have emailed the company several times and had no response.
If  anybody has ANY information we would really appreciate your help.

Thanks
Martin X. Moleski, SJ - 18 Nov 2006 21:11 GMT
>Hello,
>I am taking part in a university group project to design a stealth UAV.
>we have selected the Jetcat P-180 engine to use, but we still need to
>find some important parameters. All we can seem to find is the fuel
>consumption and thrust.

>We really need to know the exhaust and intake velocities for operation
>at different throttle settings, the exhaust teperature at different
>throttle settings, and any information on the noise produced by the
>engine.

>We have emailed the company several times and had no response.
>If  anybody has ANY information we would really appreciate your help.

Adam,

I can't do the search right now--I'm in DC at a conference--but
there is an RC jet organization that probably has all the answers.

I can't think of the name of it right now.

Sorry to be such a dry well, but I wish you well on your
project.  It sounds like fun.

You might browse through AT's links.  I'll bet he's got
links to pages that may help:

http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/%7Eatong/

Let us know how it all turns out.

                Marty
Geoff Sanders - 18 Nov 2006 21:47 GMT
There is a jets forum on RCU:

> http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/forumid_120/tt.htm

There is also an e-mail list that can be accessed by sending a message,
rc.jets.on@kidsource.com and typing "subscribe" in the subject line.  
The listmaster for this list is a professional engineer who
designs/builds UAVs for a living, and did design work on the F-117
stealth fighter, so he knows his business!

Also you can contact the Gas Turbine Builders Association in the UK.  
Google it for the URL.

>  
Geoff Sanders - 18 Nov 2006 21:54 GMT
Ooops, mistake on the e-mail list:

>rc-jets-on@lists.kidsource.com

> Also you can contact the Gas Turbine Builders Association in the UK.  
> Google it for the URL.
>
>>  
Abel Pranger - 18 Nov 2006 22:09 GMT
>I am taking part in a university group project to design a stealth UAV.
>we have selected the Jetcat P-180 engine to use, but we still need to
>find some important parameters. All we can seem to find is the fuel
>consumption and thrust.

What in the world was your powerplant selection criteria, then?
Frankly, you haven't come  across as  part of university group that is
designing "anything."  

Abel
Adam Chapman - 18 Nov 2006 22:25 GMT
Thanks guys. Your help really is appreciated.

Abel:
The selection criteria was based on the thrust-weight ratio neededto
meet the performance specification. The jetcat p-180 was chosen because
it had tfavourable thrust and fuel consumption, and a fairly small
diameter so we can use a complete flying wing.
My job now is to suppress the IR and acoustic signatures, which is why
i need to get hold of this information.
The Natural Philosopher - 19 Nov 2006 02:26 GMT
> Thanks guys. Your help really is appreciated.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> My job now is to suppress the IR and acoustic signatures, which is why
> i need to get hold of this information.

Yo are in luck, because its mainly a high frequency hiss with very
little LF roar.

Suggest you blag a spectrum analyzer and toddle down to a club where the
things are actually flying. They are loud close up, but in the sky are
remarkably quite.

I'd say its more 'blue noise' with a spectrum in the KHz only region.

You should be able to compute efflux velocity from the diameter and
thrust. My guess is its well over 100mph./.probably nearer 200mph Dunno
what exhaust temps are, but a bit of bypass may be possible to drop that
and the efflux velocity as well. Wren make a geared turboprop, so they
may be worth contacting about a turbofan setup.
Adam Chapman - 18 Nov 2006 22:25 GMT
Thanks guys. Your help really is appreciated.

Abel:
The selection criteria was based on the thrust-weight ratio neededto
meet the performance specification. The jetcat p-180 was chosen because
it had tfavourable thrust and fuel consumption, and a fairly small
diameter so we can use a complete flying wing.
My job now is to suppress the IR and acoustic signatures, which is why
i need to get hold of this information.
Abel Pranger - 19 Nov 2006 00:00 GMT
>Thanks guys. Your help really is appreciated.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>My job now is to suppress the IR and acoustic signatures, which is why
>i need to get hold of this information.

Sorry for the skepticism in my reply, if unwarranted.   Your brief
description of the UA you are designing seemed to indicate an
intention to focus on performance goals that are suggestively military
(or paramilitary) in nature, i.e., speed and stealth.  I hope your
project is legit and you don't wear a towel around your head.

The engine parameters you seek (i.e., exhaust gas temperature and
velocity) should be quite easy for the member of your design team
charged with propulsion to measure or derive.  Re taipipe gas velocity
for example, simple momentum theory will readily yield the answer.
Thrust (a given) is by definition the axial rate of change of momentum
of the ingested air mass, the tailpipe cross-section area is known,
ejecta density can be accurately known after measuring the
temperature, so exhaust velocity can be determined for any flight
velocity where the the thrust is known - including zero flight
velocity if that is all you have available.

Hey, if this is a design team effort, it only makes sense to get the
responsibilites for design data assigned to the proper member of the
team.

Abel
Adam Chapman - 19 Nov 2006 00:41 GMT
I appreciate what you area saying. I also know how to work out the
basic variables like the velocity change across the engine, although
this is useless if the mass flow rate is unknown. Myself and the
propulsion guy are both becoming desperate to find the information so
we are both looking everywhere we can think of at the moment.

My primary concern is the noise levels and directivity of that noise.
Even if anyone has noise data for similar sized turbojet engines (The
diameter of this engine is 130mm), we are very thankful for any help
that can be offered. I have researched methods of reducing the acoustic
signature but I would really like to be able to predict it real
strength.

Adam
Geoff Sanders - 19 Nov 2006 01:35 GMT
Adam, besides the sites I previously suggested, you might contact the BMFA

> http://www.bmfa.org/

I gather that you are not a modeler, so you might not be aware that the
BMFA is the governing body for model aircraft in the UK. They might
have, or can direct you to the data you request.

Geoff

>  
The Natural Philosopher - 19 Nov 2006 02:28 GMT
> I appreciate what you area saying. I also know how to work out the
> basic variables like the velocity change across the engine, although
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Adam

I think simply adding in ram air to the tailpipe would be a start..get
the temperature down and the efflux velocity and noise down.
Bob - 21 Nov 2006 23:43 GMT
suggest you go on RCU jet forum, or email jetcatusa.  Bob
>> I appreciate what you area saying. I also know how to work out the
>> basic variables like the velocity change across the engine, although
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> I think simply adding in ram air to the tailpipe would be a start..get the
> temperature down and the efflux velocity and noise down.
Dan_Thomas_nospam@yahoo.com - 24 Nov 2006 00:11 GMT
> I think simply adding in ram air to the tailpipe would be a start..get
> the temperature down and the efflux velocity and noise down.

Wouldn't even need ram pressure. The velocity of the exhaust would
drop the pressure adjacent to the tailpipe enough to draw plenty of
surrounding air. A larger duct surrounding the exhaust nozzle, with
flush inlets to avoid drag, would work OK. They're often used on FS jet
engines:

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.enginehistory.org/G%26jJBrosset
t/JetEngines/602AugmenterExhaust%2520nozzle.JPG&imgrefurl=http://www.enginehisto
ry.org/f110ge100.htm&h=1200&w=1600&sz=321&hl=en&start=1&tbnid=4Xk28vHusqeXwM:&tb
nh=113&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3DExhaust%2Baugmenter%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26
lr%3D%26sa%3DN


And

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.enginehistory.org/G%26jJBrosset
t/JetEngines/602AugmenterExhaust%2520nozzle.JPG&imgrefurl=http://www.enginehisto
ry.org/f110ge100.htm&h=1200&w=1600&sz=321&hl=en&start=1&tbnid=4Xk28vHusqeXwM:&tb
nh=113&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3DExhaust%2Baugmenter%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26
lr%3D%26sa%3DN


These pictures don't show the cowling or bypass ducting.

Engine test cells use augmenters to reduce the noise:

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://eldadaelectronics.tripod.com/sitebu
ildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/slide17.jpg&imgrefurl=http://eldadaelectronics.
tripod.com/silentec/id31.html&h=213&w=283&sz=12&hl=en&start=5&tbnid=tDHBSc3_RzD8
tM:&tbnh=86&tbnw=114&prev=/images%3Fq%3DExhaust%2Baugmenter%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3D
en%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN


        Dan
The Natural Philosopher - 24 Nov 2006 00:15 GMT
>> I think simply adding in ram air to the tailpipe would be a start..get
>> the temperature down and the efflux velocity and noise down.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
>          Dan

Neat idea. Glad someone else is taking the trouble to add info to this
thread.
 
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