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Model Forum / Radio Controlled / Air Models / December 2006



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Capacitors on a motor

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BCRandy - 24 Dec 2006 18:29 GMT
I am a true dunce when it comes to electronics!  Getting
back into modeling, I can't avoid learning any longer, so
please bear with me!  I've noticed that some brushed type
electric motors (like that on a Slo-V) have capacitors on
the motor's power terminals.  The Slo-V's motor has two: one
is grounded to the motor's case and another runs between the
two input wires.  Can anyone tell me what purpose they
serve?  Also, what would happen if they were removed?  And
finally, would there ever be a reason to change them?  TIA..
Marlowe - 24 Dec 2006 19:10 GMT
The brushes in the electric motor can produce an electrical arc (like a
spark plug).  This arcing, in turn, can cause radio interference which is
not good for R/C operation.  The small capacitors act as shock absorbers and
kill the RF noise.  For this reason I would caution against removing the
caps.  Since they don't operate under very stressed conditions, I don't see
any reason to replace them unless they are damaged as a result of a crash.

I hope this helps.

>I am a true dunce when it comes to electronics!  Getting back into
>modeling, I can't avoid learning any longer, so please bear with me!  I've
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>happen if they were removed?  And finally, would there ever be a reason to
>change them?  TIA..
Morgans - 24 Dec 2006 19:56 GMT
> The brushes in the electric motor can produce an electrical arc (like a spark
> plug).  This arcing, in turn, can cause radio interference which is not good
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> I hope this helps.

If you were about to convert a motor to RC  use, how would you go about figuring
what the values of capacitors should be, that you are going to add?

Seems I am motor rich, and would like to experiment with making one or two fly.
Signature

Jim in NC

Ray Haddad - 24 Dec 2006 21:20 GMT
>> The brushes in the electric motor can produce an electrical arc (like a spark
>> plug).  This arcing, in turn, can cause radio interference which is not good
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>If you were about to convert a motor to RC  use, how would you go about figuring
>what the values of capacitors should be, that you are going to add?

The noise reduction capacitor is normally determined simply by the
function of the noise to be reduced and has no bearing on whether it
is used for RC or just general noise reduction.

Here's a fun experiment for you. Run an unprotected and unfiltered
motor next to an AM radio tuned to a dead spot. By dead, I mean no
station. There will always  be a faint hiss in a dead spot. Run your
motor near the radio and listen to the noise it makes in terms of
radio frequency noise, not the whine of the motor itself but what
you hear in the speaker as a result of the motor being on.

Now add a ceramic capacitor of the value .01 microfarad rated at 50
volts or 100 volts across the motor terminals. Smaller is better on
noise capacitors and be warned that you should never use a polarized
capacitor (electrolytic or tantalum are examples of polarized
capacitors) on a motor. Make a note of the difference in noise
levels. Now try the same with a .1 microfarad of the same rating and
see if you can tell the difference. You can do that experiment with
hundreds of values of capacitors until the cows come home and the
results should not differ significantly no matter what value used.
Thus, the de facto standards of .01 or .1 are the most often
selected for the convenience and price. They are used in billions of
noise reducing operations and are found everywhere they sell
electronic components in bags of 100+ for pennies each.

As mentioned earlier, the spark is a noise generator but that can't
be stopped or eliminated by a capacitor no matter how big or how
powerful. The reason is that the spark is a necessary byproduct of a
motor's brushes and emits its own field. Marconi knew this and the
very first radio transmissions across the Atlantic were just noise
from gigantic sparks. This brush noise fact of life led to the
development of the brushless motor which uses pure induction to move
the rotor. It's the effects of the collapsing induction field that
the noise capacitor reduces in both cases, not spark noise. As the
motor rotates away from the point where the electromotive power is
applied, the field in the coils collapses rapidly and can emit a
field of energy around the coil as it does. That capacitor acts as a
shunt for this field and effectively kills it allowing your radio
some level of safety from the motor.

To fully reduce the motor noise as much as is possible, the easiest
method is to have a good ground throughout your electronic motor
subsystem and ensure that your motor case is grounded within that
system. A screw from the case and a wire to the negative terminal of
your battery is normally all that is required. Also, you may want to
cover the gaps that you have in the motor where you can see the
brushes contacting the motor armature. You can add a Faraday type
shield which will cut the emissions a great deal. To find a good and
nearly free one, look for large cables that have ground mesh inside
them. Remove the mesh, expand it so that plenty of air can pass
through and slip it over your motor so that the mesh covers the
holes through which the brushes are visible. Be sure to ground this
mesh and secure it with a clamp of a plastic wire tie and you'll
have reduced your noise as much as is possible without spending a
fortune.

Other tips would be to use ferrite cores and put a single loop of
the positive motor wire through the loop. Here's a large file link
that describes the technical nature of what a ferrite core can do
for you.
http://www.fair-rite.com/newfair/pdf/15th_Edition_Fair-Rite_catalog_Cable_and_Co
nnector.pdf#page=4


To shorten that explanation to a single sentence, the wire you run
through that loop is an inductor and the ferrite core makes it a
minimum of 25 times as efficient as a noise reducer with just a
single loop. They're very light in weight as only a tiny one is
needed.

Disclaimer: I realize that this is a very technical issue but I
tried to simplify it for anyone to read. The engineers among us will
realize that I did not go into the level of explanation that would
confuse the hobbiest. I did that on purpose so if you want to
discuss theory in greater depth, do it without me.
--
Ray
Morgans - 25 Dec 2006 00:21 GMT
> Other tips would be to use ferrite cores and put a single loop of
> the positive motor wire through the loop. Here's a large file link
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> confuse the hobbiest. I did that on purpose so if you want to
> discuss theory in greater depth, do it without me.

Thanks!  This post goes into the "keeper" file.  I hope I don't crash my
computer and lose it, somehow!

As far as the level of detail you went into, this was just about right.  Any
deeper, and you would have been doing it without ME, too! <g>

Now to find a reasonably priced speed controller, or a kit for one.  Anyone got
any recommendations?
Signature

Jim in NC

MK - 25 Dec 2006 03:59 GMT
>> Other tips would be to use ferrite cores and put a single loop of
>> the positive motor wire through the loop. Here's a large file link
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> Now to find a reasonably priced speed controller, or a kit for one.
> Anyone got any recommendations?

For brushed?  I've got some that I won't use, the cut off is too low for
Li-pos, for free(might need to solder 'em on)
Gimme your snail mail.
mk
mjmwcs at htcomp dot net
MK - 25 Dec 2006 04:03 GMT
>>> Other tips would be to use ferrite cores and put a single loop of
>>> the positive motor wire through the loop. Here's a large file link
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> mk
> mjmwcs at htcomp dot net

as far as specs. one came out of a firebat, 10-15amps-
I'll check
mk
Morgans - 25 Dec 2006 04:06 GMT
> For brushed?  I've got some that I won't use, the cut off is too low for
> Li-pos, for free(might need to solder 'em on)
> Gimme your snail mail.
> mk
> mjmwcs at htcomp dot net

Thanks!

On the way, on back channels.
Signature

Jim in NC

The Natural Philosopher - 25 Dec 2006 09:32 GMT
>>> Other tips would be to use ferrite cores and put a single loop of
>>> the positive motor wire through the loop. Here's a large file link
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> Li-pos, for free(might need to solder 'em on)
> Gimme your snail mail.

Mad. You don;t have a low throttle cutoff on glo engines.

Since going LIPOS I have never USED the LVC.

It was never there to protect bateris..it was there to make sure you
could still dead stick in, in an emergency.

> mk
> mjmwcs at htcomp dot net
Doug McLaren - 27 Dec 2006 04:52 GMT
| > For brushed?  I've got some that I won't use, the cut off is too
| > low for Li-pos, for free(might need to solder 'em on)
...

| Since going LIPOS I have never USED the LVC.

Ok, that's fine, but you're not everybody.

Personally, for LiPos, if the LVC is there, I'll use it.  If not, I
don't worry about it.  Having a LiPo cell go from 4.2 volts (full) to
3.0 volts (don't go much below this!) gives you a power loss of about
50%, so you should be well aware that your battery is dying long
before it gets bad enough to do damage to the battery.  You've just
got to pay attention ...

| It was never there to protect bateris..it was there to make sure you
| could still dead stick in, in an emergency.

That may have been true before the advent of LiPos for R/C (well, it
was *certainly* true, but the LVC did also help to protect the pack
from reverse charging the weakest cell for poorly matched cells) but
with LiPo packs today the LVC is most certainly there for both reasons
-- both to 1) keep the battery pack from going below 3.0 volts/cell
AND 2) make sure you have enough power to do a deadstick landing.

Signature

Doug McLaren, dougmc@frenzied.us               "Going Nowhere Fast Since 1968"

H Davis - 25 Dec 2006 18:24 GMT
> For brushed?  I've got some that I won't use, the cut off is too low for
> Li-pos, for free(might need to solder 'em on)
> Gimme your snail mail.
> mk
> mjmwcs at htcomp dot net

In my experience, guys like MK aren't all that rare; they just don't leave a
big footprint, really tread lightly and don't demand recognition. In any
case, they are the people who really define what I like to think of as real
human beings.

Here's to you, Mk. Merry Christmas.

Harlan
Morgans - 26 Dec 2006 00:00 GMT
> In my experience, guys like MK aren't all that rare; they just don't leave
> a big footprint, really tread lightly and don't demand recognition. In any
> case, they are the people who really define what I like to think of as
> real human beings.
>
> Here's to you, Mk. Merry Christmas.

Yep.  What he said!
Signature

Jim in NC

The Natural Philosopher - 26 Dec 2006 01:57 GMT
>> For brushed?  I've got some that I won't use, the cut off is too low for
>> Li-pos, for free(might need to solder 'em on)
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Harlan

In the last year I have received so much free stuff and given so much
away to others..

There are a few people who take and don't give..but in the scale and old
timer arena, its mostly a question of 'well I bought that X years
ago,.and now I am into Y..so you might as well have it'..
The Natural Philosopher - 25 Dec 2006 00:58 GMT
>> The brushes in the electric motor can produce an electrical arc (like
>> a spark plug).  This arcing, in turn, can cause radio interference
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> figuring what the values of capacitors should be, that you are going to
> add?

between 10nF andf 100nF plate type capacitors are ideal. Don't use
tubular..they have significant series inductance. Normally ceramic is best.

> Seems I am motor rich, and would like to experiment with making one or
> two fly.
Martin X. Moleski, SJ - 24 Dec 2006 19:39 GMT
>I am a true dunce when it comes to electronics!  Getting
>back into modeling, I can't avoid learning any longer, so
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>two input wires.  Can anyone tell me what purpose they
>serve?  

Noise suppression?  In other words, do they help keep the
motor from generating random radio signals?

Just a Wild Amateur Guess.  ;o)

>Also, what would happen if they were removed?  And
>finally, would there ever be a reason to change them?  TIA..

Beats me.  I wouldn't expect them to go bad in ordinary
use--but that's another WAG.

                Marty
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The Natural Philosopher - 25 Dec 2006 00:57 GMT
> I am a true dunce when it comes to electronics!  Getting
> back into modeling, I can't avoid learning any longer, so
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> serve?  Also, what would happen if they were removed?  And
> finally, would there ever be a reason to change them?  TIA..

Interference suppression only, don't remove, and no, they are low
stressed parts and will never break electrically, though they may snap
in a crash.
BCRandy - 25 Dec 2006 04:54 GMT
Very helpful!  Thanks to all who responded.

>I am a true dunce when it comes to electronics!  Getting
>back into modeling, I can't avoid learning any longer, so
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>removed?  And finally, would there ever be a reason to
>change them?  TIA..
 
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