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Black wire corrosion

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funfly3 - 29 Jan 2007 19:02 GMT
Black wire corrosion can this happen to any type of battery? I thought
it was just Nicads but I just had it happen to a NiMh pack can you get
the same on a LiPo?
James Beck - 29 Jan 2007 19:40 GMT
> Black wire corrosion can this happen to any type of battery? I thought
> it was just Nicads but I just had it happen to a NiMh pack can you get
> the same on a LiPo?

If the battery can leak/vent then you can get electrolyte on the copper
and that is a bad thing.
I would think if a LiPo leaked it would be shot/swollen.

                       Jim
Tim Wescott - 29 Jan 2007 19:41 GMT
> Black wire corrosion can this happen to any type of battery? I thought
> it was just Nicads but I just had it happen to a NiMh pack can you get
> the same on a LiPo?

From reading Red's website it has to do with the electrolyte leaking
out of a NiCd.  NiMH use the same sort of electrolyte (potassium
hydroxide) and similar seals, so I would expect it there.

I don't think that LiPos are at all the same, however.

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Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
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Red Scholefield - 29 Jan 2007 21:10 GMT
It is dependent on the electrolyte used in the system, both Ni-Cd and Ni-Mh
employ KOK (caustic) which is one of the ingredients for black wire
corrosion we see,  LiPos on the otherhand don't.

Signature

Red S.
Red's R/C Battery Clinic
http://www.rcbatteryclinic.com
Check us out for "revolting" information.

> Black wire corrosion can this happen to any type of battery? I thought it
> was just Nicads but I just had it happen to a NiMh pack can you get the
> same on a LiPo?
mjd - 29 Jan 2007 23:56 GMT
KOH you mean. Not that it matters in the grand scheme of things.

So, why do we not see this on the + side?

> It is dependent on the electrolyte used in the system, both Ni-Cd and Ni-Mh
> employ KOK (caustic) which is one of the ingredients for black wire
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> > was just Nicads but I just had it happen to a NiMh pack can you get the
> > same on a LiPo?
Red Scholefield - 30 Jan 2007 01:08 GMT
Here is a dissertation on the subject of black wire corrosion:

The black wire syndrome is an occurrence in battery packs (Ni-Cds) where the
negative wire becomes corroded (turns from shinny copper to blue-black).
This is the result of either a shorted cell in the pack, the normal wear out
failure mode of Ni-Cds, or cell reversal when a pack is left under load for
an extended period. The sealing mechanism of a Ni-Cd cell depends to some
degree on maintaining a potential across the seal interface. Once this
potential goes to zero the cell undergoes what is called creep leakage. With
other cells in a pack at some potential above zero the leakage (electrolyte)
is "driven" along the negative lead. It can travel for some distance making
the wire impossible to solder and at the same time greatly reducing its
ability to carry current and even worse, makes the wire somewhat brittle. A
switch left on in a plane or transmitter for several months can cause this
creepage to go all the way to the switch itself, destroying the battery lead
as well as the switch harness. There is no cure. The effected lead,
connector, switch harness must be replaced. This leakage creep takes time so
periodic inspection of the packs, making sure that there are no shorted
cells insures against the problem.  The cells should also be inspected for
any evidence of white powder (electrolyte mixed with carbon dioxide in the
air to form potassium carbonate). In humid conditions this can revert back
to mobile electrolyte free to creep along the negative lead. Some "salting"
as this white powder is referred to, does not necessarily mean that the cell
has leaked. There may have been some slight amount of residual electrolyte
left on the cell during the manufacturing process. This can be removed with
simple household vinegar and then washed with water after which it is dried
by applying a little warmth from your heat gun..

Signature

Red S.
Red's R/C Battery Clinic
http://www.rcbatteryclinic.com
Check us out for "revolting" information.

> KOH you mean. Not that it matters in the grand scheme of things.
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>> > was just Nicads but I just had it happen to a NiMh pack can you get the
>> > same on a LiPo?
Red Scholefield - 30 Jan 2007 01:16 GMT
My bad, Sr. fingers. You are right it is KOH, not KOK (whatever that is).

It is electrochemically driven so it is usually seen on the negative side.

Long dissertation follows:
The black wire syndrome is an occurrence in battery packs (Ni-Cds) where the
negative wire becomes corroded (turns from shinny copper to blue-black).
This is the result of either a shorted cell in the pack, the normal wear out
failure mode of Ni-Cds, or cell reversal when a pack is left under load for
an extended period. The sealing mechanism of a Ni-Cd cell depends to some
degree on maintaining a potential across the seal interface. Once this
potential goes to zero the cell undergoes what is called creep leakage. With
other cells in a pack at some potential above zero the leakage (electrolyte)
is "driven" along the negative lead. It can travel for some distance making
the wire impossible to solder and at the same time greatly reducing its
ability to carry current and even worse, makes the wire somewhat brittle. A
switch left on in a plane or transmitter for several months can cause this
creepage to go all the way to the switch itself, destroying the battery lead
as well as the switch harness. There is no cure. The effected lead,
connector, switch harness must be replaced. This leakage creep takes time so
periodic inspection of the packs, making sure that there are no shorted
cells insures against the problem.  The cells should also be inspected for
any evidence of white powder (electrolyte mixed with carbon dioxide in the
air to form potassium carbonate). In humid conditions this can revert back
to mobile electrolyte free to creep along the negative lead. Some "salting"
as this white powder is referred to, does not necessarily mean that the cell
has leaked. There may have been some slight amount of residual electrolyte
left on the cell during the manufacturing process. This can be removed with
simple household vinegar and then washed with water after which it is dried
by applying a little warmth from your heat gun..

Red S.
Red's R/C Battery Clinic
http://www.rcbatteryclinic.com
Check us out for "revolting" information.

> KOH you mean. Not that it matters in the grand scheme of things.
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>> > was just Nicads but I just had it happen to a NiMh pack can you get the
>> > same on a LiPo?
mjd - 30 Jan 2007 17:31 GMT
I knew you knew what you meant.. ;-)  I can only assume KOK is some ancient
god of male fertility.

Thanks for the write up on the corrosion issue!

MJD

> My bad, Sr. fingers. You are right it is KOH, not KOK (whatever that is).
>
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
> >> > was just Nicads but I just had it happen to a NiMh pack can you get the
> >> > same on a LiPo?
mjd - 29 Jan 2007 23:57 GMT
KOH you mean, not that it matters in this conversation.

But why don't we see this on the +ve side? Is it due to the construction of
the cells that leakage happens on the -ve side?

MJD

.
> It is dependent on the electrolyte used in the system, both Ni-Cd and Ni-Mh
> employ KOK (caustic) which is one of the ingredients for black wire
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> > was just Nicads but I just had it happen to a NiMh pack can you get the
> > same on a LiPo?
Gazz - 30 Jan 2007 19:08 GMT
> KOH you mean, not that it matters in this conversation.
>
> But why don't we see this on the +ve side? Is it due to the construction
> of
> the cells that leakage happens on the -ve side?

Don't mean to shatter your universe here.. but you can get black wire
corrosion on any negative wire on a DC circuit that's had the exposed part
of the wire exposed to moisture.

Motorcycles get it in their rear light and indicator earth wiring, the wires
that are about the furthest away from the battery on the bike.. and it's a
lead acid battery on the bike not ni-cads... well some are sealed gell
cells,

but i'm just trying to say black wire corrosion is not exclusive amoungst
modelers who use ni-cad batteries,

i've had it on vehicle trailer sockets, sensor wires on engines, the wiring
from a cheap solar panel,

it's always the negative wire that's affected, and in all cases the wires
connections had been exposed to moisture, on motorcycles it's the rear light
assembly, and on cars the trailer socket assembly as they are behind the
rear wheels and thus get all the road spray,

the solar panel wasnt sealed underneath, so moisture got to it easily.
funfly3 - 30 Jan 2007 19:23 GMT
>> KOH you mean, not that it matters in this conversation.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> the solar panel wasnt sealed underneath, so moisture got to it easily.

just curious is this also a ploy by car manufactures to rot cars away
quicker by changing to - earth
Barry Lennox - 31 Jan 2007 01:53 GMT
>> KOH you mean, not that it matters in this conversation.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
>the solar panel wasnt sealed underneath, so moisture got to it easily.

I would agree 100%. In the 40+ years I have been fooling with
electronics, I see it in a number of applications, not just NiCd and
NiMH driven. Marine, vehicle, some aircraft, and even techs in the
telephone industry have told me about it.

The common (ish) denonimators seen to be batteries (of any chemistry)
moisture, time and PVC-covered wire. Although not exclusively.

There is an obscure MIL-STD (or may have been HDBK) that I can no
longer find on aerospace wiring that either banned, or severly
restricted PVC covered wire. The main reason was that PVC burns giving
off toxic gases, but a secondary reason was that under some
conditions, chlorine and the plasticiser can leach out of the
insulation, combining with moisture to generate corrosive compounds. I
think that is the most likely reason. I'd presume electrochemistry
explains why we only see it on the negative lead.

Until somebody comes up with a foolproof way of stopping it, the easy
detection method is to use transparent insulation on the negative
lead.

Barry Lennox
The Natural Philosopher - 31 Jan 2007 02:41 GMT
>>> KOH you mean, not that it matters in this conversation.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
>
> Barry Lennox

That IS interesting..heat and or light breaking down PVC to give
chlorine->Hcl->CuCl.

Under electrochemical action..

I think that may be the correct answer.

Except that copper chloride goes green usually..when wet..when dry it
can be brownish apparently..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper(II)_chloride

There is definitely a directive in UK housing regs to keep polystyrene
insulation clear of PVC cabling. That allegedly causes the PVC to
degrade pretty fast.
 
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