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Model Forum / Radio Controlled / Air Models / February 2007balsa and tissue
I was looking at some model airplanes online that were made out of balsa wood and covered with tissue. They weren't for flying, just for display. They sort of caught my eye, but I was a little put off by the tissue covering. I seem to recall getting one of these models by accident when I was a kid and I wasn't sure what to do with the tissue - I know it takes the place of the paint sort of. Is there some sort of advantage to using tissue instead of paint? Does it look better than paint? How fragile is it? How difficult is it to cut and apply the tissue, I get the impression this is something of an advanced technique? Finally, if anyone knows of any links to step by step methods for working with models like this, especially applying the tissue, I would be appreciative. > I was looking at some model airplanes online that were made out of > balsa wood and covered with tissue. They weren't for flying, just for [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > working with models like this, especially applying the tissue, I would > be appreciative. Typically you apply it wit something like a water based paste as tight as you can get it over the frame, then spray water on it to get it to shrink, and then apply clear dope to tighten it and seal it. Over sheet or sold balsa, you can apply it straight with dope after doping and sanding the bare wood. I would not use it as a paint replacement tho. Its more a surface prep device, and with ipen frames a light airproof covering that adds SOME strength. The message <1171016250.698288.202050@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> from "iarwain" <iarwain_8@hotmail.com> contains these words: > Finally, if anyone knows of any links to step by step methods for > working with models like this, especially applying the tissue, I would > be appreciative. Years ago it was the only method of covering an airframe and properly applied is very light and easily repaired in the field with no need for hot irons or blow guns, just rip away the damaged tissue and paste a new bit over the hole then spray with water to shrink it and your back in the air. One of these days I will get around to building a model as light as I can possibly make it and cover it with 00 or lighter Silkspan or even clingfilm (Saranwrap) just to see what happens, regards, Terry The balsa display model kits that I have seen are open structures, s the tissue is the the surface. It takes a little patience and care to make it look nice and to preven warps when tightening and finishing it with water/dope/paint -- perttim >I was looking at some model airplanes online that were made out of > balsa wood and covered with tissue. They weren't for flying, just for [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > working with models like this, especially applying the tissue, I would > be appreciative. ------------------ I grew up using tissue for covering, but wasn't rich (or smart) enough to use it to disguise the grain of the wood. It wasn't until years later while using K&B Superpoxy paint and 3/4 oz. fiberglass that it became apparent why folks used tissue instead of dope and sanding sealer to smooth the surfaces on their models that had lots of bare wood. I hope that made sense. I'm still working on cup of coffee #1. Ed Cregger > I was looking at some model airplanes online that were made out of > balsa wood and covered with tissue. They weren't for flying, just for [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > working with models like this, especially applying the tissue, I would > be appreciative. There are many sites on tissue covering. Easy built.com has a whole section dedicated to just tissue covering, comet.com and now we have a google site for builders. Just started yesterday by Kevin. Ed take a look at the site and we can start posting those tips with small presentations. Doc Ferguson The resulting structure of tissue, sealer and colored dope is surprisingly sturdy. I have built several Guillows kits and launched them with their rubberband engines. About 6 flights is max before I completely destroy it. A nose dive usually spells the end. Art >I was looking at some model airplanes online that were made out of > balsa wood and covered with tissue. They weren't for flying, just for [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > working with models like this, especially applying the tissue, I would > be appreciative. I've been wanting to gain some building experience before I cracked open my first R/C building kit, so I bought a Guillow's Lancer kit for $8 from my local Hobbytown USA just to get some hands-on practice gluing sticks together and building over a set of plans. Covering with tissue isn't terribly hard, although I've seen better results than what my first effort produced. These kinds of "stick and tissue" models can be for static display, for free flight, or for radio control. A couple of long-time modellers I fly with at local clubs have scratch built some wonderful scale R/C models from stick and tissue. The Guillow's Lancer kit I built is a build-by-numbers kit with fairly good instructions. It walks you through the build process step-by-step, and with a fair amount of patience I was able to complete my model. I still haven't had the guts to fly it yet, but I may go ahead and give it a try soon. I'm glad I went through with the project. Working with the stick-and-tissue design prepared me to tackle bigger projects which will probably seem easy by comparison. >I was looking at some model airplanes online that were made out of > balsa wood and covered with tissue. They weren't for flying, just for [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > working with models like this, especially applying the tissue, I would > be appreciative. > Finally, if anyone knows of any links to step by step methods for > working with models like this, especially applying the tissue, I would > be appreciative. Try this web site: http://www.ffscale.co.uk/index.htm Also this: http://www.easybuiltmodels.com/ Lots of good info. Don Hi: What you want are cardstock models from Poland and other old eastern european block countries. They are amazingly detailed and come "pre-printed" with accurate colors and weathering. There is an extensive choice of subject material and they are dirt cheap by western standards. They come in magazine format so that you can slide your entire stash conveniently under the bed. Some of these models have 5,000 parts+, so they are not for the faint of heart. CAD/CAM/CAE technology has vastly improved the quality in just the last few years. The parts fit. The only downside is that many models come only with Polish instructions. But with a dictionary in one hand, that can be overcome. May I suggest you join www.cardmodels.net with a free membership. Last I recall you had to join the board in order to see the color "in progress" pictures. For vendors and publishers, check out http://www.digitalnavy.com/ http://www.halinski.com.pl/indexgb.php http://www.delta7studios.com/ http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/ http://www.papermodels.co.il/ http://kancho.muncho.org/item_id_1.html http://www.orlik.konradus.com/ http://digilander.libero.it/zioprudenzio/fok-air.html http://store.jsc.pl/ http://www.papershipwright.co.uk/index.html http://wak.nd.e-wro.pl/models.html http://www.mazowszelok.nazwa.pl/index.php?strona=101 http://gpm.pl/eng/ http://www.gremirmodels.com/ http://www.papermodels.net/new.html http://www.moduni.de/ http://www.e-papermodels.com/ http://www.hobbyfactory.com./ http://www.teuton.org/dbarnett/ http://www.papermodelstore.com/ http://www.card-models.com/ http://www.modele.kielce.com/ ..../Vess >I was looking at some model airplanes online that were made out of > balsa wood and covered with tissue. They weren't for flying, just for [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > working with models like this, especially applying the tissue, I would > be appreciative. > I was looking at some model airplanes online that were made out of > balsa wood and covered with tissue. They weren't for flying, just for [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > working with models like this, especially applying the tissue, I would > be appreciative. I tried to post this yesterday, but GG was not nice to me. Sorry to post so late. I seem to still be having troubles, so sorry if this repeats. While tissue is great for depicting fabric covered aircraft it is inappropriate for metal skinned ones. Fabric makes flat facets between stringers. For non-flying scale models of metal airplanes I skin these Guillows kits with thin sheet styrene or card stock. I scribe panel lines and emboss rivets. I just received a Guillows 1:16 scale SBD-3 that I am going to do this way. Will have to scratch the engine and much of the cockpit, but boy it will be BIG! My 68 year old fingers are starting to resist detailing small stuff, so I keep building them bigger :-) Of course, Guillows was originally a flying model kit maker, so tissue/ balsa is much lighter for good flying, and that is why they make them that way- it is their heritage. >> I wasn't sure what to do with the tissue >> - I know it takes the place of the paint sort of. >> >> Is there some sort of advantage to using tissue instead of paint? Only weight and cost. . >> Does it look better than paint? Definitely not. The only people who used colored tissue were those that (1) built the models completely out of the supplied materials in the kit, (2) couldn't afford the modest cost of colored dope, (3) were into highly competitive rubber-powered or tow-line glider endurance models. > How fragile is it? Without dope, extremely. With a few coats of dope, especially colored dope, surprizingly sturdy. There are two kinds of tissue papers. The old stuff (typically the stuff that comes in color) is real "tissue" paper, also called "japan paper." About 1947 a new kind of paper, called "silkspan" came out. This was so superior to the old japan paper that almost all kit manufacturers (except, I think, Guillows) dropped the Japan paper and opted for silkspan. Certainly all us serious model builders did. Today, if you build flying models, in addition to silkspan there are some fabulous plastics that most modelers use. >> How difficult is >> it to cut and apply the tissue, I get the impression this is something >> of an advanced technique? Nah! Easy as pie. As an example, I'll use covering the wing. 1. Cut each panel roughly to the shape needed --wing shape, say the top surface. Leave a generous amount of extra material, say 1/2" all around. Don't do more than 20 square inches at a time. 2. For the section you are about to cover, brush on a thin layer of clear model-airplane dope on all surfaces that will come in contact with the paper. 3. Immediately after you've finished brushing the dope one, apply the tissue. Pull on the edges to make it smooth and wrinkle free. But don't worry if there are minor wrinkles. Just don't allow overlaps. You pull JENTLY on the edges. 4. Put that piece aside and let the dope dry.. work on the other wing, say. 5. When the dope had dried on that panel, trim the excess with a sharp (Sharp!!) razor blade. 6. When doing adjacent panels, you have to be careful not to leave too much of an overlap where the panels meet. 7. Once the entire piece (e.g., top and bottom surface of the wing) have been covered this way and the dope allowed to dry completely. Gently wet the entire surface. Gently. As the water is applied, the tissue will get quite weak and prone to tearing. It's a good idea during the drying process to block the piece up so that it does not twist up as it dries. 8. As it dries, the tissue will shrink and become very taught. 9. Once all surfaces have been dried, apply several coats of clear dope. > Of course, Guillows was originally a flying model kit maker, so tissue/ > balsa is much lighter for good flying, and that is why they make them > that way- it is their heritage. Among us ancient flying model builders, Guillows was universally derided as the worst kit manufacturer of all. They insisted on peddling "flying" scale models, especially of WWII aircraft. Very few of their kits could be made to fly more than a hundred feet. The usual second flight (the first was inevitably a crash) was a realistic "going down in flames." a la a WWI Red Baron victim. The Guillows kits were difficult to build..although touted as easy. Guillows was 90% hype and 10% substance. I (and I'm sure most serious flying model builders of old) am appalled, but perhaps more saddened, by the sorry fact that this is one of the few "flying" model kit builders that are still around. They pushed their junk on four generations of would-be model builders and now seem to be poised to do to yet another group. Some heritage. If you want to build flying models...forget about accurate scale... they don't fly well without some non-scale modifications (e.g., enlarged tail and control surfaces, excess power, overly large prop, to name a few). In any case, with such modifications, either gas or electric power is must. If you want to build scale models, there's a near infinite supply of beautifully accurate kits in all sizes and for all budgets. Balsa and tissue "scale models" frankly look like crap. Unless they are scale models of something like a piper-cub or other aircraft which in full size were almost enlargements of the balsa and tissue idea (pine and canvas...and dope) --scale models of such aircraft will probably fly and won't look very bad..not good, but not very bad. Rubber-powered scale flying models has always been and will remain a cruel joke. Another one to avoid is the resurrection of the infamous Strombecker wooden "scale" models. That vampire hasn't died either. Boris Don, What do you use to attach the sheet styrene to the balsa formers? Art >> I was looking at some model airplanes online that were made out of >> balsa wood and covered with tissue. They weren't for flying, just for [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > balsa is much lighter for good flying, and that is why they make them > that way- it is their heritage. > Don, > > What do you use to attach the sheet styrene to the balsa formers? > > Art > Gel CA. The gel stuff sets slower to allow you to reposition more easily, and the gel works well with porous woods. Don's comment reminded me of a very humorous problem I had building a Guillows kit. I had strip of balsa laying across my palm. I put *thin* CA on top of the balsa, the CA immediately penetrated the balsa and glued the strip to my palm. Art >> Don, >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> Gel CA. The gel stuff sets slower to allow you to reposition more >> easily, and the gel works well with porous woods. The message <pNOzh.8035$z6.6389@bigfe9> from "Art Murray" <artmurray@bellsouth.net> contains these words: > I had strip of balsa laying across my palm. I put *thin* CA > on top of the balsa, the CA immediately penetrated the balsa and glued the > strip to my palm. I have a theory about bottles of CA, they just sit there thinking 'go on! I dare ya!'.............. regards, Terry Tissue is very light. Light silkspan is very similar. Recent experience is that the hobby shop has light, medium, and heavy silkspan available, maybe, on any given visit. Your kit should have enough tissue in the kit, however. Silkspan is stronger than 'Jap' tissue, silk is stronger still. Stronger covering material will pull enough to deform or perhaps destroy the structure. Use the proper material. Applying tissue is pretty straightforward. Thin some clear dope about half. Paint the sanded outer balsa surfaces that will contact the covering tissue. Let dry. Sand them smooth again. Cut one piece of tissue at a time and then put a second coat of thinned dope on the balsa and apply the piece of tissue. Another streak of thinned dope on the outside might help, also wet the overlapping 1/8 to 1/4 inch edges of subsequent pieces of tissue. When it all dries the tissue should have adhered to the balsa and other tissue. Generally do not try to cover an entire structure at one sitting. Some of the fuselage, a wing, whatever. Several parts of the plane can be covered at a time, not usually the whole thing. Tissue covered wings, fuselage, tail fins after the covering is complete assemble real well with glue. In days of yore, when Ed Cregger and I were still in high school, there were those who insisted that tissue should be applied wet with water or with thinned dope. If applied dry or wet, after it dried the first time it would still need to be wetted with water or thinned dope or sequentially with water and let dry and wetted again and let dry and then coated with thin dope and dried and carefully sanded and re-doped and sanded until you are either happy with it or tired of the process. Each time the tissue is wetted and allowed to dry it will shrink more and the wrinkles will disapear more. Sanding with very fine grain paper removes some of the excess dope as well as smoothing the surface. Dope has a strong smell that lasts forever. The primary solvent is acetone which is dangerously flammable and explosive in a suitable vapor state and quite poisonous. Be sure of very good ventilation. Wives and Mothers hate model airplane dope because the house will be filled with the smell for weeks or months. I have a SIG Monocoupe (rubber powered) that was going to be an electric but was built too early in electric motor and battery development and became a display model. The white paint over clear on the wing ended up just fine. It took a year or slightly more to dry and pull the tissue completely tight. Note: long after that experience with white dope that kept bleeding through I came across a suggestion to use silver (aluminum) in a thin coat as an underlay. Then usually the white (or a translucent color) finish on the outer surface will work without excess repeat coats. An alternative to clear dope that I have tried is clear water-based Polyurethane Varnish. Thin some of it with water; I have experimented with small amounts of water up to half water by volume and like the end product. There is very little smell and it dries in hours instead of days or weeks. When the plane is complete the final color for serious competition models is the color of the tissue used, or very thin coats of color dope. For display where final weight is not a problem then amount or kind of paint is open. Saran or other brands of plastic food wrap can be used for covering also. They can provide color or gloss and used over or instead of tissue. The film might provide some protection on a display model from "hangar rash." Also these thin films are very light. All this talk about balsa and tissue brought waaaaaves of nostalgia. I have a question, however.... Way back in the mists of time I made a number of Speedi-Bilt models (I think by Monogram). If you recall, they had pre-formed balsa upper wing surfaces; with the underside being tissue-covered. Are those models still available anywhere? Andy > All this talk about balsa and tissue brought waaaaaves of nostalgia. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Andy Only from eBay, and they go for a fair amount :-( I bought one recently at a model show swap table. But that was the only one I had seen in years not on eBay. |
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