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Model Forum / Radio Controlled / Air Models / June 2007



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Flight trim question

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Frank Schwartz - 19 Jun 2007 23:13 GMT
I must be losing it  due to advanced age...but I have a scratch built
Lazy Bee and on occasion it tries to nose under...and I had an Elder
once that used to do the same thing in flight.  I recall I was told it
was because the plane was either nose heavy or tail heavy...I
cannot remember which.   Can anyone who knows more about this
than me comment or really know the answer?
Thanks and
Regards to all,
Frank Schwartz
MJKolodziej - 19 Jun 2007 23:27 GMT
>I must be losing it  due to advanced age...but I have a scratch built
> Lazy Bee and on occasion it tries to nose under...and I had an Elder
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Regards to all,
> Frank Schwartz

I'm wondering more about the flight characteristics. Does it jump up too?
Does it need lots of roll out or does it lift of pretty quickly?  Is it hard
to land?  Do you have to land fast? Is it easy to hover?(joke)  With the
wing cord of that plane I have no idea where to balance it.  In my
experience, tail heavy is twitchy on the up and down.
mk
Martin X. Moleski, SJ - 19 Jun 2007 23:45 GMT
>>I must be losing it  due to advanced age...but I have a scratch built
>> Lazy Bee and on occasion it tries to nose under...and I had an Elder
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>> Regards to all,
>> Frank Schwartz

>I'm wondering more about the flight characteristics. Does it jump up too?
>Does it need lots of roll out or does it lift of pretty quickly?  Is it hard
>to land?  Do you have to land fast? Is it easy to hover?(joke)  With the
>wing cord of that plane I have no idea where to balance it.  In my
>experience, tail heavy is twitchy on the up and down.

I'd guess tail heavy, too.

Some suggestions here for trimming planes:

http://nsrca.org/trimA.htm

                    Marty
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Morgans - 24 Jun 2007 07:49 GMT
> Is it easy to hover?(joke)

Hey, I have torque rolled my lazy bee, quite well, thank you.

What, you can't do that with yours?  Humm, I'm a better pilot than I
thought, I guess! <g>
;-)
Robert Reynolds - 20 Jun 2007 01:18 GMT
> I must be losing it  due to advanced age...but I have a scratch built
> Lazy Bee and on occasion it tries to nose under...and I had an Elder
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Regards to all,
> Frank Schwartz

When does it nose under?  If you go to full throttle and it noses under,
it may need the engine adjusted so the thrust line is higher.  You would
also know that this was the case if the nose comes up and the plane
floats up a bit when you bring the engine to idle.
Frank Schwartz - 20 Jun 2007 06:36 GMT
No..I think the plane is balanced correctly.  It is the second one I
have built...this one will just be chugging along nicely and then
starts to dive...full up gets it back..but it just happens
sometimes..usually, I think when it gets up some speed.
Frank

>I must be losing it  due to advanced age...but I have a scratch built
>Lazy Bee and on occasion it tries to nose under...and I had an Elder
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Regards to all,
>Frank Schwartz
Tim Wescott - 20 Jun 2007 07:03 GMT
(top posting fixed)

>>I must be losing it  due to advanced age...but I have a scratch built
>>Lazy Bee and on occasion it tries to nose under...and I had an Elder
>>once that used to do the same thing in flight.  I recall I was told it
>>was because the plane was either nose heavy or tail heavy...I
>>cannot remember which.   Can anyone who knows more about this
>>than me comment or really know the answer?

> No..I think the plane is balanced correctly.  It is the second one I
> have built...this one will just be chugging along nicely and then
> starts to dive...full up gets it back..but it just happens
> sometimes..usually, I think when it gets up some speed.
> Frank

That doesn't sound like balance, or trim either.  It sounds like something
is loose in your airframe or control setup.  I suspect that either your
wing is not mounted solidly and can change its attitude with respect to
the airframe when it's pushed hard enough, or the tail does, or something
in your elevator linkage will flex when it's pushed hard enough.  Any of
these would cause a sudden excursion in one direction only.

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Tim Wescott
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Ed Cregger - 20 Jun 2007 12:42 GMT
If the model was suddenly looping, I would suspect not enough rubber bands.
Tucking under is a problem with some forms of flying wings. I remember one
in particular that had the engine amidship that was notorious for tucking
under - can't remember the name, but I remember the model. <G>

If the model is a low wing, with the wing being held on with rubber bands...

My first "multi" digital proportional rig was a Micro Avionics XL-IC four
channel set. It was on 27.195 MHz. Every time I flew my Senior Falcon over
the power lines at the old Seabrook field in NJ, the radio would give me
full down elevator. It never crashed my model, but it came very, very close
a few times. Yes, I'm sure it was the radio causing the problem. It only
happened when I flew over the power lines in that particular spot. Weird.

Ed Cregger

> (top posting fixed)
>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> in your elevator linkage will flex when it's pushed hard enough.  Any of
> these would cause a sudden excursion in one direction only.
IFLYJ3 - 20 Jun 2007 11:11 GMT
> No..I think the plane is balanced correctly.  It is the second one I
> have built...this one will just be chugging along nicely and then
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Frank,

Since you provided the "speed" clue, take a hard look for horizonal
stab flutter. The Bee type of planes have a large flat flimsy stab and
at a certain speed they will flutter. I have a 40 size Bee copy called
a Lazy Cub and it will do the flutter dance if it gets too fast.
Chuck - 20 Jun 2007 23:48 GMT
If the incidence? of the horizontal stabilizer is wrong, and the stabilizer
has a "flying" airfoil, it may be going in and out of the flying mode.
(I think flutter is more likely, or some sort of problem with the elevator
control servo or linkage. If you have plenty of travel, consider reducing
it.

There was a real airplane, made by Cessna in the 1970's that had a problem
with the horizontal stabilizer, and as I remember, might do strange things
similar to what you are describing, although usually at low speed and a high
attack angle.

> > No..I think the plane is balanced correctly.  It is the second one I
> > have built...this one will just be chugging along nicely and then
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> at a certain speed they will flutter. I have a 40 size Bee copy called
> a Lazy Cub and it will do the flutter dance if it gets too fast.
Morgans - 24 Jun 2007 07:55 GMT
> No..I think the plane is balanced correctly.  It is the second one I
> have built...this one will just be chugging along nicely and then
> starts to dive...full up gets it back..but it just happens
> sometimes..usually, I think when it gets up some speed.

I use two standard rubber bands knotted together, and put three of these
duo's on each side, so that is 12 rubber bands in all.  If you use that
many, OK, there is another problem.  Any less would be risky.
Signature

Jim in NC

Paul Ryan - 29 Jun 2007 05:32 GMT
>>No..I think the plane is balanced correctly.  It is the second one I
>>have built...this one will just be chugging along nicely and then
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> duo's on each side, so that is 12 rubber bands in all.  If you use that
> many, OK, there is another problem.  Any less would be risky.

Well, I'd take out(free flight style) and do some test glides, engine
off, controls in your normal cruise mode trim position, and ideally
somewhere with tall grass.
    Put it in flight trim and hand launch it nose-level, at flying speed
into a glide.
    It should glide down to a gentle landing.
    If it doesn't dive but goes into a quick, short period stall, you've
got the cg too far forward, and you're balancing that out with excessive
nose up trim.
    If it begins to nose over, and assuming your CG is close to correct,
you need more nose-up trim and/or move the CG back.
    To figure out which, throw it a bit nose-down, at a little above its
trim flying speed, ideally it should bouyantly glide to a slight nose-up
position, and to a gentle stall.  If it dives even harder for the
ground, you definitely need more incidence. If the model seems to do a
little better, and you can see the trim at the higher speed is trying to
hold the nose up, try moving your CG back a little.  I'm betting it will
dive.
   
    Those Bees seem like big sport free flight models, and I wouldn't be
surprised if they even had cambered airfoiled tail surfaces.
    That's my basic glide test trim technique
    Uncle Pauly
Morgans - 30 Jun 2007 02:15 GMT
> Those Bees seem like big sport free flight models, and I wouldn't be
> surprised if they even had cambered airfoiled tail surfaces.

Nope.  1/8" flat stick construction.
Signature

Jim in NC

aa2dd - 21 Jun 2007 00:05 GMT
> I must be losing it  due to advanced age...but I have a scratch built
> Lazy Bee and on occasion it tries to nose under...and I had an Elder
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Regards to all,
> Frank Schwartz

has it been crashed or subjected to any possible breakage of wing?
sounds like wing flexing with air pressure. Or push rod flexing,etc

Bruce
 
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