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Model Forum / Radio Controlled / Air Models / January 2009



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Radios, Radios, Radios

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Michael Austin - 24 Jan 2009 17:39 GMT
I am getting back into RC gliders after almost 17-18yrs.  My first was
the Sophisticated Lady (T-Tail Goldberg - they apparently quit making
that kit)... (she died a horrible death when flying in less than ideal
wind conditions) so, my next endeavor is the Gentle Lady.  I have
everything done except covering it and final tail section (tail,
stabilizer etc...).  I won't have a lot of time to devote to this, but,
will give me an alternate outlet - other than the many computers I have
in my basement.

In preparation for a really nice, calm day, I would like to order the
radio.  I am looking at a 6CH 72Mhz Futaba - like the LXRXF6. Yeah, I
only need 2 for the glider (well maybe 4 - for when I add those booster
rockets :) ). I don't want to spend an arm and a leg, but also want to
get something descent should I want to try something a bit more
challenging (like maybe a A10 inducted-fan or something :))
Larry Farrell - 24 Jan 2009 18:12 GMT
[snip]

> In preparation for a really nice, calm day, I would like to order the
> radio.  I am looking at a 6CH 72Mhz Futaba - like the LXRXF6. Yeah, I
> only need 2 for the glider (well maybe 4 - for when I add those booster
> rockets :) ). I don't want to spend an arm and a leg, but also want to
> get something descent should I want to try something a bit more
> challenging (like maybe a A10 inducted-fan or something :))

I suggest that you look into a 2.4 Ghz radio instead of 72 Mhz.  2.4 Ghz
is becoming the standard for a variety of reasons, not the least of
which is that you don't have to be concerned about channel control.
Using 2.4 Ghz allows you to fly with any number of other folks without
concern for interference.  You can get basic 2.4 Ghz radios starting at
$100 and go up dramatically from there, depending on how many channels
and bells/whistles you want/need.
The Natural Philosopher - 25 Jan 2009 02:21 GMT
> [snip]
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> $100 and go up dramatically from there, depending on how many channels
> and bells/whistles you want/need.

Well that depends. If you live miles from anywhere, pick up a good 72
set off ebay for peanuts cos its owner is 'going 2.4'

And do understand there are issues with 2.4 sets as well.
Larry Farrell - 25 Jan 2009 03:19 GMT
>> [snip]
>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> And do understand there are issues with 2.4 sets as well.

Expand on the issues, please.
The Natural Philosopher - 25 Jan 2009 15:46 GMT
>>> [snip]
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Expand on the issues, please.

Oh.

Futaba early sets, some sets could be reprogrammed to be on logical
channel '0' so they all interfered with each other. Just switching on
long enough to read the battery voltage and then switching off would do it.

This was never formally admitted as a problem by Futaba,..

Futaba chipsets are only rated to about 55-65C. In hot sun in a closed
fuselage some sets have packed up completely. This has been
independently tested by a modeller and established beyond my reasonable
doubt. Futaba don't admit to the problem.

Early spektrum receivers would, if a servo drew enough power to drop the
avionics voltage below 3v, take up to 30 seconds to reboot, which is
handy if you have just pulled up the undercarriage and lose control.
Later sets will reboot in a couple of seconds. After JR held their hands
up to that one... `With a 72Mhz set if ou lost control for half a second
due to a low voltage, you would be fine immediately the voltage
rose..just a short glitch maybe.

What else? Mmm. *Some* chipsets draw about 50-70mA. A typical HF set is
5-10mA. Doesn't sound like a lot, but its CONTINUOUS and has been a
possible cause of BEC overheating in electric aircraft, and somewhat
shorter pack  duration in people using them with separate batteries.

XPS sets have been shown to simply not do what is claimed, and have been
associated with several shootdowns..no one ever really go to the bottom
of that one. Some people have had trouble free operation with them too.

Simpler cheap sets like Assan, which we have used, definitely slow down
when used in a 'busy' 2.4Ghz environment. Their response to interference
is to discard frames so only the odd one gets through. This is not
fatal, but its a tad unnerving 'My plane just felt sluggish: I dont
think I wanted to fly it' was the comment from my friend on that one...

2.4Ghz antenna are very short. This is wonderful if you have a small
balsa or glass fuselage - no more dangly antennae hanging out the back
like its the wrong time of the month for the model, In a CARBON fuselage
is an utter disaster. Carbon is opaque to 2.4Ghz. So you need a receiver
that has  the capability - or you have to concoct - a way of mounting a
remote dipole (or two if the set is twin RF like Spektrum). You cant
just tape the antenna on the outside of the fuselage (that actually
isn't a good idea even on 72Mhz).

So whilst shootdowns*, and glitches are gone forever, a whole new set of
issues to do with voltage stability, heat, and the issues of antenna
placement have occurred instead.

I want 2.4Ghz like mad. But its costly..no 3rd party receivers since
every manufacturer uses a different modulation system. And there are
still issues with ALL of the sets currently o the market.

If I were coming back into the hobby, as a solo or remote site flyer,
i'd pickup a dirt cheap 72Mhz set, especially if it had an RF module..
because its cheap, its good enough, receivers are cheap, and 3rd party
are avaialable. THEN  you maybe can think about slotting a 2.4GHz module
in the back later on.

But I wouldn't be in a hurry.

There are more sets coming out from different manufacturers, who have
waited, and looked at the problems of the early sets, and solved them.

* except the Futaba ZGUID issue, and some anecdotal XPS issues. Don't
buy XPS..there are better sets at the money.
MJKolodziej - 25 Jan 2009 17:16 GMT
>>>> [snip]
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 86 lines]
> * except the Futaba ZGUID issue, and some anecdotal XPS issues. Don't buy
> XPS..there are better sets at the money.

I agree very much with NP's post.
Get a 72 MHz of a brand that you like the feel of.  I use Futaba but have a
JR that feels really good.  Buy a flight pack with micro servos for the sail
plane.  The Berg 4 channel is a full range Rx and very light.  I personally
love Expo and dual rates but you may not need them.
mk
Larry Farrell - 25 Jan 2009 18:20 GMT
>>>> [snip]
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 87 lines]
> * except the Futaba ZGUID issue, and some anecdotal XPS issues. Don't
> buy XPS..there are better sets at the money.

So most of the problems relate to early models and/or to cheaper radios.
 While I can't argue with the suggestion of buying a 72 Mhz set if he
isn't going to be flying with other folks, it still seems to me that it
isn't the best way to go in the long run.
MJKolodziej - 25 Jan 2009 19:17 GMT
>>>>> [snip]
>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>>>>>> also want to get something descent should I want to try something a
>>>>>> bit more challenging (like maybe a A10 inducted-fan or something :))

SNIP

> So most of the problems relate to early models and/or to cheaper radios.
> While I can't argue with the suggestion of buying a 72 Mhz set if he isn't
> going to be flying with other folks, it still seems to me that it isn't
> the best way to go in the long run.

As per his stated requirements (I don't want to spend an arm and a leg,)  I
don't see how 2.4GHz is at all in his best interest.
mk
JMHO

Michael, where will you be flying? Club? City? Rural?  Country/state?
Michael Austin - 26 Jan 2009 01:20 GMT
<snippage occurred here>

 mk
> JMHO
>
> Michael, where will you be flying? Club? City? Rural?  Country/state?

Yes.  KCMO to start with.
The Natural Philosopher - 25 Jan 2009 22:50 GMT
>>>>> [snip]
>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 95 lines]
> isn't going to be flying with other folks, it still seems to me that it
> isn't the best way to go in the long run.

No. The futaba/heat issue is still unresolved. The issues of 2.4Ghz
propagation are ubiquitous. As are the issues of rebooting and
resynching after momentary power loss.

Im not syaing te stuff is crap -= far from it, but there are still
resolvable issues - so wait till they are!

and learn to live with the unresolvables, as we had to live with metal
to metal interference, rusty wire syndrome and other multipath, and peg
on board systems.
Ed - 25 Jan 2009 09:06 GMT
I won't discuss used because that can be all over the place. I will
only comment on new radios.

First question:  Are you flying alone, in the middle of nowhere or are
you flying at a club?

Are you going to use standard sized servos or will you be using micro
servos up in the nose to save weight?

For the lowest cost for transmitter, receiver with standard servos,
there is a Futaba 3 channel AM radio. Works fine, but not my first
choice.  About $55
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXAAD7**&P=ML

For lowest cost with micro servos and receiver, HItec Neon FM 3
channel:
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXLGF4**&P=7

If you are only going to have one plane and it will be R/E or RES or R/
E motor, these will get the job done.

Four Channel FM - available for $100 to $115, depending if you want
standard or micro servos- Hitec Laser
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0095p?FVPROFIL=&FVSEARCH=Hitec+Laser

Spektrum DX5e 5 channel 2.4 GHz - $100 + servos
http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=SPM55001

If you are going for lowest cost for new equipment, those are my
recommendations, but I would not suggest you buy one of them.  They
work fine and are good values.  I always recommend going to 2.4 GHz to
eliminate channel conflict, among other benefits.

I always assume you will have more than one plane and will move into
more complex planes.   I recommend computer radios and at least
channels

Hitec Optic - $160 to $220 depending on the model
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/WTI0095P?FVSEARCH=Hitec+optic

2.4 GHz  Spektrum DX6i - $200 plus servos
http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=SPM6600

Airtronics 8 channel 2.4 GHz with 2 receivers$229 - plus servos
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXVMG9&P=ML

We can go on for pages about the merrits of 2.4 GHz, but it is enough
to say that it is the current standard.  72 MHz is fading out.  In
this month's Model Aviation, the President of AMA talks about being
unsure how long we will be able to hold onto 72 for hobby use.

So these give you somethings to consider.
Ron van Sommeren - 26 Jan 2009 10:53 GMT
> I am getting back into RC gliders after almost 17-18yrs ...
Monthly online magazine:
www.rcsoaringdigest.com

The announcement-only group mentioned on that site is spam free!

Vriendelijke groeten ;-) Ron van Sommeren
http://home.hetnet.nl/~ronvans/
near Nijmegen, Netherlands
 
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