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Model Forum / Radio Controlled / Air Models / March 2009AMA Bylaws VOTE !
Hello ALL, As a leader member of the AMA, you will soon be sent a ballot to consider an AMA Bylaws change to institute TERM LIMITS for AMA Executive Council membership.. I would like to share my feelings that the ""unintended consequences of a YES vote"" while on the surface seems sound, this bylaws change would take the representative selection away from the MEMBERSHIP and is not in the long term interest and good of the AMA. It would give the selection of your representative over to the in house AMA politicks... It is my TRUE FEELINGS that such a bylaws change would not be in the best interest of the AMA nor the majority of the membership... PLEASE review this ballot in light of all its consequences.... and VOTE AGAINST IT !!! Best regards, Dr.Sandy Frank sfrank69@comcast.net phone: 765-212-2340 AMA Life Member/Membership in the Grade of Fellow 2009-02-20 I think that I would tend to agree with this, but, to be more effective it might be better if you or someone else more fully elaborate the reasoning behind this. I will try to do so now. (1) Term limits may tend to force the best qualified and most experienced person from holding the position. (2) If we applied term limits to both houses US congress we would be stuck with a bunch of newbie's that don't know what they are doing running things. > Hello ALL, > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > AMA Life Member/Membership in the Grade of Fellow > 2009-02-20 >(2) If we applied term limits to both houses US congress we >would be stuck with a bunch of newbie's that don't know what >they are doing running things. As opposed to the people that are up there now???  SignatureDavid >>(2) If we applied term limits to both houses US congress we >>would be stuck with a bunch of newbie's that don't know what >>they are doing running things. > > As opposed to the people that are up there now??? They KNOW what they are doing, you haven't figured it out yet. Maybe you will when the income tax rate breaks 50% again. More taxes to make the economy healthier is the mantra. >>>(2) If we applied term limits to both houses US congress >>>we [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > again. More taxes to make the economy healthier is the > mantra. Yes but if they had term limits then the average congressman might not know enough to not start World War III (Armageddon). >>>> (2) If we applied term limits to both houses US congress >>>> we [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > might not know enough to not start World War III > (Armageddon). and if you read history at all, the founding fathers actually had it in mind that the Congress seat WOULD be temporary - go to Washington, serve a few years and go back home. It wasn't until the late 19th/early 20th century that it became a "full time career". I am for term limits........ Yes, term limits can get rid of a good person. But by the same token, it can get rid of a bad one too. Does anyone remember Mr. McNeil the previous VP from Florida? Several times an effort was made to defeat him. IIRC, he didn't even fly at all. It is sad he had to die to be replaced. As most of you know it is extremely hard to beat an encombant regardless if he is good or bad. Only about 1% of AMA general membership even bothers to vote. For those bothered about the leader members being the ones to vote on bylaw changes, leader members vote on bylaw changes whereas all members vote for the representives. I do not have a problem with that because this keeps many short time members from upsetting the apple cart. BTW, I am a general member. On Feb 23, 5:49 am, WB4...@aol.com wrote: > I am for term limits........ > Yes, term limits can get rid of a good person. But by the same token, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > because this keeps many short time members from upsetting the apple > cart. BTW, I am a general member. You my friend were in the MINORITY !! wanting JIM McN to be removed ( proven by the voters ) ( I even would have not voted for him) if MOST wanted him gone he would have been voted out MOST VOTERS wanted him IN.. TERM LIMITS would have done what MOST members did not want now do you see why this is BAD ??? take YOUR personal feelings about JIM out of this consideration... similar feelings is why some support it... what is in the overall best interest and the good....???? I was probably one of the most active members in D-V working to have Jim McNeill replaced. He stayed in office by manipulating the system, and the EC under Dave Brown (who could always count on JM's vote)allowed him to get away with it even to the point of allowing him to appoint a successor that wasn't even a Leader Member (as required) until JM bypassed all the rules and made her one. As more and more people became aware of his actions he would have been soundly defeated in the next election had he lived that long. He carried the last two elections only because he had nominated a couple of his fans as spoiler votes so that he barely made it by a plurality vote. Even with the McNeil experience, I didn't then or do I now, want to see the vote of the membership compromised by term limits SignatureRed Scholefield AMA 951 Dist. V Leader Member/CD. On Feb 23, 6:30�am, sfran...@gmail.com wrote: > On Feb 23, 5:49 am, WB4...@aol.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Mr Frank, Please show me were in the following statement I made, where personal feelings are displayed. > > Does anyone remember Mr. McNeil the > > previous VP from Florida? Several times an effort was made to defeat > > him. IIRC, he didn't even fly at all. It is sad he had to die to be > > replaced. I believe I was just stating the facts as backed up by a following statement by Red S. Mr. McNeil was not even in my district. This is simply an example where term limits would have worked. The same people that took over a brothel with a liquor license in Nevada and it then it went broke? Red S. >>(2) If we applied term limits to both houses US congress we >>would be stuck with a bunch of newbie's that don't know what >>they are doing running things. > > As opposed to the people that are up there now??? How many people know that the nomination committee is the EC. If a dud candidate (even one presently in office) chooses to run again he must be nominated? He can be kept off the ballot by a 3/4 vote of those VPs voting. Article IX, Section 2. http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/Memanual.PDF I don't know if this option has ever been taken, but there certainly was one instance where the EC was negligent in this manner. That is water under the damn. AMA has new leadership and I hope we don't screw it up by imposing term limits on them. SignatureRed Scholefield AMA 951 Dist. V Leader Member/CD > The same people that took over a brothel with a liquor license in Nevada and > it then it went broke? > > Red S. LOL...thanks for the memory. Now if you look at how this thread is going, you'll be reminded why I walked away sometime ago. Why I decided the AMA was tore up from the floor up worse than congreass or the OTHER AMA that is about motorcycles. Life is too short to hang around whiners, cries and wannbe bossman types. Looks like I'm out of here for good, I've no time or tolerence for whining, bitching, moaning and other such nonsense. p.s. I DO NOT belong to any organizations political, social, religious or otherwise. The stink of the selfinterested and bossy britches makes me sick. -- Keith So you just sit back, suck on your beer and reap the benefits won by those who participate in the Democratic process. I really don't mind, just don't disguise your laziness with that ridiculous excuse. Out! On Feb 23, 2:08 pm, "Red Scholefield" <reds...@bellsouth.net> wrote: > The same people that took over a brothel with a liquor license in Nevada > and > it then it went broke? > > Red S. LOL...thanks for the memory. Now if you look at how this thread is going, you'll be reminded why I walked away sometime ago. Why I decided the AMA was tore up from the floor up worse than congreass or the OTHER AMA that is about motorcycles. Life is too short to hang around whiners, cries and wannbe bossman types. Looks like I'm out of here for good, I've no time or tolerence for whining, bitching, moaning and other such nonsense. p.s. I DO NOT belong to any organizations political, social, religious or otherwise. The stink of the selfinterested and bossy britches makes me sick. -- Keith > <sfrank69@gmail.com> wrote in message news:ddcd4212-715b-4901-9fa7-4a05f5a01d30@f4g2000vbf.googlegroups.com... > > Hello ALL, > > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > AMA Life Member/Membership in the Grade of Fellow > > 2009-02-20 <Changed to bottom post for better reading> > I think that I would tend to agree with this, but, to be > more effective it might be better if you or someone else [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > (1) Term limits may tend to force the best qualified and > most experienced person from holding the position. And the one who has learned to manipulate things to his/her advantage as in DC? > (2) If we applied term limits to both houses US congress we > would be stuck with a bunch of newbie's that don't know what > they are doing running things. As it is now, a well meaning person is sent to DC and corrupted by the v eteran politicians. The original intent of our founders was that our representatives in DC would serve their term and then go home and take care of their business. SignatureAnyolmouse Quote: Originally Posted by Dadstoysbg As a leader member myself I have serious reservations myself. I would like someone to give me both the pros and cons on the subject. When the ballot come I'll have to give it a lot of thought. Dennis I can give you ""both the pros and cons on the subject"" but you already know where I stand... PLEASE be SURE that when others give you "both the pros and cons on the subject" you do know where they stand... this bylaws ballot was WRITTEN by those that SUPPORT IT.. and you will not see the opposition when you read it... PLEASE LOOK at WHY those that support it do so?? please look for the underlie-ing meanings and unintended consequences... look at WHO would benefit from TERM LIMITS??? the VOTERS???? who would loose their choice...??? this has the possibility to DO what the voters would NOT do nor want!!! (it is the only way that the supporters can get their way...against the voters) PLEASE READ BETWEEN the lines!!! Voluntary TERM LIMITS YES I did it to ME!!! but a bylaws choice to overturn what the majority MAY want is just WRONG !!! PLEASE look who wins and looses via this bylaws change!!! Sandy Frank ph: 765-212-2340 The AMA EC has TERM LIMITS NOW.. it is called the VOTERS and their VOTE... this would REMOVE THIS !!! > Hello ALL, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > TERM LIMITS for AMA Executive Council membership.. -------- For once we agree upon something, Dr. Frank. I knew it would happen eventually. While I do not like the system of "good old boys" that limits our choice of nominees, I would like it even less to have the membership's voting privileges artificially limited by a term limit rules change. Ed Cregger AMA #73846 > I would like to share my feelings that the ""unintended consequences > of a YES vote"" [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > AMA Life Member/Membership in the Grade of Fellow > 2009-02-20 agreed as the unintended consequences are BIG ( and can not be FIXXED) and where needed the voters can do the deed... ( and FIX any problem) this TERM LIMITS is just WRONG... please do not let this be considered as the USA Congress... the VOTER HAS TERM LIMITS there also... think it over WHO gets WHAT with TERM LIMITS ??? do the membership voters??? many relate this to the USA congress and District 5 which it IS NOT... if the representative is in NEED of replacement the voters can and will do IT... it has been done OFTEN G.Aldrice unseated Gene Hemple as did Andy Argenieo and Bill Oberdike... someone else related the following: Say the incumbent happens to be doing a great job, but has completed his 3 terms, then along comes some jerk that gets himself nominated and is the sole nominee. You will have to accept the jerk regardless of how qualified he may be. Our representatives should be voted in as well as out. Best regards, > many relate this to the USA congress and District 5 > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Best regards, The real problem is getting people to be involved enough to know whats going on in this organization and getting them to vote. It does no good to have a good candidate running in an election if not enough members vote. Too many people go "ewww, politics, I don't want anything to do with that.". When what they should do is be informed and vote. Communicate with the people in the EC. Hard for the executive council to do what the membership wants if the membership doesn't communicate well. There's no excuse for not communicating in this day and age. E-mail is free or inexpensive, long distance is inexpensive these days. 42 cents for a stamp is not too much either. If you don't want to take the time to communicate with those that can take action, then don't whine about it elsewhere. There, I've had mt rant. I will go now. Vance THE SKY IS FALLING, THE SKY IS FALLING! It must be 'cause I find myself agreeing with Doc *and* Ed on the same subject! Term limits are not needed if we excursive our responsibility to vote. Term limits have always been a political ploy to eliminate those individuals the *minority* doesn't favor. That's not how Democracy should work. Term limits would arbitrarily remove extremely competent, dedicated officers and that would be a disaster. Ed F. >> Hello ALL, >> [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] >> AMA Life Member/Membership in the Grade of Fellow >> 2009-02-20 Ed Forsythe Wrote: > THE SKY IS FALLING, THE SKY IS FALLING! It must be 'cause I find myself > agreeing with Doc *and* Ed on the same subject! Term limits are no [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Horrace Cain. AMA L-93 > CD 1963, Leader 196 -- Hossfl Judging by what has NOT been said here, it appears that there may be two or more factions within the current AMA leadership with differing views, and one side is trying to gain control through the tactic of term limits. What would be more helpful is an open discussion of the real underlying issues, with both sides being presented. This would allow the membership to make a truly informed choice. I would encourage the AMA leadership to put their faith in the general members and take the risk of an open airing of the issues. Randy Maheux > Hello ALL, > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > AMA Life Member/Membership in the Grade of Fellow > 2009-02-20 JUST FYI Personally I am just an interested member... a previous EC member but no longer... I am NOT A DOG in this HUNT !!! but please look who gains and who loses via TERM LIMITS... do the members have a bigger say or is it taken away from them??? it the PAST when I was a DOG in the HUNT..it MAY have been different.. but now as just a member I seek what is in the best interest of the membership... please read this ballot VERY CLOSE and YOU CHOOSE what is in the BEST INTEREST of the membership !!! > JUST FYI > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > but please look who gains and who loses via TERM LIMITS... I would have no idea who gains or how to look for who gains. I don't know any of the issues. All that I currently know about AMA is that they send me a magazine, and provide insurance. If you want people to make informed choices in this matter it is up to you to inform them. > do the members have a bigger say or is it taken away from > them??? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > in the BEST > INTEREST of the membership !!! ONLY leader members will be sent ballots in this please advise if you are a leader member and I will PM you.. > ONLY leader members will be sent ballots in this > > please advise if you are a leader member and I will PM you.. That's a problem too. Here you are complaining about term limits taking control of the EC away from the membership and they are only going to send these ballots to a select elite. That's rich. If they really want membership participation, then they can't exclude some of the members because they weren't elite enough to be classified as a "leader member". Why don't you stop beating around the bush and explain this to everyone right here. There should be no "secrets" among the AMA membership or between the members and the EC. >> ONLY leader members will be sent ballots in this >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >right here. There should be no "secrets" among the AMA membership or >between the members and the EC. Sniff, sniff . . . I smell skunks in the air. Can anyone else smell a class action lawsuit? The AMA belongs to ALL of its members. -- Ray >>> ONLY leader members will be sent ballots in this >>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > -- > Ray Ray, Contrary to your views, I don't think 'giving' the AMA to guys who only show up to fly and are never involved in any of the actions many take to protect our flying sites, prepare them for use, or maintain them is a good or healthy idea. The Leader Member has proven to someone at some time a greater than average dedication to the hobby and the AMA. That class of membership is defined in the constitution and thereby is legal. The trick is to convince others that YOU are dedicated enough to be a Leader Member. I think those are the folks who should decide some of the more significant internal rules of how we govern ourselves. Is this idea of term limits for the AMA a good one? I don't know. Does Dr. Frank have a valid argument? Again I don't know and I doubt he will tell me. I am studying the issue. In general I am dedicated against term limits in all applications I have seen. Typically what I have seen is then only the non elected bureaucrats know what is going on and they soon learn to misrepresent, miss state, or plain outright lie, to get what they want; public be damned. Jim Branaum AMA 1428 > >>> ONLY leader members will be sent ballots in this > >>> [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > Jim Branaum > AMA 1428 So we have discrimination against certain members (those not labeled "leader members") in the AMA and that is perfectly OK? Maybe some of the non-leader members haven't been given a chance to show their interest in being involved? Who is going to nominate me to be a "leader member"? Do I have to pay someone a bribe? This "leader member" distinction is crap. Every person who pays their dues should have a say in the organization. Not just certain "special" members. If some just pay their dues and only want to go fly, then that is their choice. They shouldn't be discriminated against just because they don't want to get involved in the politic side of the org. I pay my dues, I expect to be able to vote on all issues put to the membership, not just on certain issues. Well Vance, we have all seen the disaster caused when "" just because they don't want to get involved in the politic side of the org." vote on people in a National Election for congress . People act like becoming a Leader Member is a big deal. Anyone can do it, $10- all you need is to show the initiative that you are interested in the organization and be sponsored by 3 other Leader Members, or by 3 Open Members and an endorsement your District AVP or VP. See http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/907.pdf You want to be a leader member? I will put my name to the nomination form assuming you meet the requirements. SignatureRed Scholefield AMA 951 Dist. V Leader Member/CD >> >>> ONLY leader members will be sent ballots in this >> >>> [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > able to vote on all issues put to the membership, not just on certain > issues. >>>> ONLY leader members will be sent ballots in this >>>> [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >Jim Branaum >AMA 1428 All members should have a say. The same say as any other member. -- Ray > On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 13:20:03 -0800 (PST) > sfran...@gmail.com remarked: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > right here. There should be no "secrets" among the AMA membership or > between the members and the EC. YES they can and will !!! """then they can't exclude some of the members because they weren't elite enough to be classified as a "leader member"""" only ""leader member"" vote on bylaws changes... """Is this idea of term limits for the AMA a good one? I don't know. Does Dr. Frank have a valid argument? Again I don't know and I doubt he will tell me. """ that is RIGHT I will not!!! >"""Is this idea of term limits for the AMA a good one? I don't know. >Does Dr. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >that is RIGHT I will not!!! Some leader you are. I hereby strip you of your title. -- Ray >>"""Is this idea of term limits for the AMA a good one? I don't know. >>Does Dr. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Some leader you are. I hereby strip you of your title. Stay off the back channel, mate. I hereby sentence you to thirty lashes with a mouse cord. Off with your shirt, former leader. -- Ray >>>"""Is this idea of term limits for the AMA a good one? I don't know. >>>Does Dr. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > -- > Ray Aren't you in Australia? Are you an AMA member? mk >>>>"""Is this idea of term limits for the AMA a good one? I don't know. >>>>Does Dr. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >Are you an AMA member? >mk rec.models.rc.air is not a US only group... >>>>>"""Is this idea of term limits for the AMA a good one? I don't know. >>>>>Does Dr. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > rec.models.rc.air is not a US only group... Right. Is the topic US only? mk Strangely enough, this thread illustrates what happens when ill-informed people have a "say" >>>>>>"""Is this idea of term limits for the AMA a good one? I don't know. >>>>>>Does Dr. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >Strangely enough, this thread illustrates what happens when ill-informed >people have a "say" I'm hardly ill informed, mate. I've been an AMA member and will be again when I need to be. -- Ray >>>>"""Is this idea of term limits for the AMA a good one? I don't know. >>>>Does Dr. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >Aren't you in Australia? >Are you an AMA member? I am in Australia. I am a former AMA member and become a member again when I spend time in the USA. I am bi-continental. I have residences in three places. I am a citizen of the USA and a permanent resident of Australia. I guarantee you I am more of a leader than a guy who stands here and tells you that a casual, but paying, member has less rights in a club than he does. It's a club, for heaven's sake. Clubs have a specific function and membership is equal. Over the years, the members who are long since gone changed the AMA into what appears more like a rogue nation than a club. Sad and unnecessary. -- Ray > > On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 13:20:03 -0800 (PST) > > sfran...@gmail.com remarked: [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > only ""leader member"" vote on bylaws changes... More discrimination. Everyone who pays dues should have a say. >> > On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 13:20:03 -0800 (PST) >> > sfran...@gmail.com remarked: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >> > More discrimination. Everyone who pays dues should have a say. Sorry, you are incorrect. Look at it in the terms then next sentence suggests. Do you want any doctor (pshrink or pediatrician) to operate on you or one that has gone to a specialty school for the type of surgery you need? They are all doctors. All anyone has to do is READ the AMA bylaws and act accordingly and they can become a Leader Member. The only potential fly in the ointment is that you generally must convince at least your local AMA VP that you are worthy, but there is a process whereby you can go around that pontificating fool, should you have one. It should be clear from this exchange that had I applied during the pshrink's career with AMA, my application would have been rejected. Of course he also sent me email bringing up charges on the internet but then 'deleted' the email that caused his threats when I tried to find out what was going on. Thank goodness he is out of the AMA EC. <sfrank69@gmail.com> wrote in message news:5cc71197-afd1-4741-be29-1eac867f642c@w35g2000yqm.googlegroups.com... > """Is this idea of term limits for the AMA a good one? I don't know. > Does Dr. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > that is RIGHT I will not!!! And that refusal defines your personal insanity, snake in the grass vindictiveness, and intent to destroy the AMA so you can prove something. You have convinced me that you are nothing but a low life scumbag that probably cheats on his wife and the world. The refusal to share thoughts coupled with the insistence that others do your bidding is not the stupidest thing I have ever heard you do or say, but it is typical of your worthlessness. Try to be a human, more folks will discuss things with you instead of yelling, or just go pound sand. G'day mate! >>> > On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 13:20:03 -0800 (PST) >>> > sfran...@gmail.com remarked: [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > > G'day mate! Ok., so Six may not be objective on this............. mk >>>> > On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 13:20:03 -0800 (PST) >>>> > sfran...@gmail.com remarked: [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > Ok., so Six may not be objective on this............. > mk LOL I promise that I am at least as objective as Sanford Frank. >I promise that I am at least as objective as Sanford Frank. That's a no brainer. Even Rush is more objective than Frank. -- Ray |
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