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Mixing Fuel

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RogerN - 10 May 2009 03:30 GMT
I mixed my first batch of fuel yesterday, very easy and works great so far.
I purchased Klotz synthetic and racing castor from Tower Hobbies.  Found
some methanol locally from someone that supplies fuel to local race tracks.
I calculated how much methanol I needed to add to a quart of oil to produce
the oil content I wanted.  Basically I mixed some FAI (no Nitro) fuel, put
an ordered quart of high nitro fuel (nitro without hazmat fee) in a gallon
bottle, topped off with my mix for a gallon of fuel.  We've only ran a
couple of tanks due to weather but so far it runs great.

RogerN
MJKolodziej - 10 May 2009 03:37 GMT
>I mixed my first batch of fuel yesterday, very easy and works great so far.
>I purchased Klotz synthetic and racing castor from Tower Hobbies.  Found
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> RogerN

Cool beans.
mk
Ed Forsythe - 12 May 2009 21:01 GMT
Hi Roger,
What is the nitro/oil percentage? What were you shooting for 15% nitro and
18% oil?
Ed F.
>I mixed my first batch of fuel yesterday, very easy and works great so far.
>I purchased Klotz synthetic and racing castor from Tower Hobbies.  Found
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> RogerN
RogerN - 12 May 2009 23:57 GMT
> Hi Roger,
> What is the nitro/oil percentage? What were you shooting for 15% nitro and
> 18% oil?
> Ed F.
<snip>

The quart I added was 35% Nitro, don't know the oil content (Trinity fuel
from Tower Hobbies).  The fuel I mixed was 16% Oil (too low for aircraft,
supposed to be on the high sided for cars).  If my calculations are correct,
my end product was 8.25% nitro (if I used 96 oz of my own mix, I used 100 oz
plus 32 oz of 35% nitro fuel).  The oil I used was Klotz KL-100 from Tower
Hobbies, supposed to be 20% Castor, 80% Synthetic.  I used a quart of oil to
mix 200oz fuel, calculates to 16% oil if I'm figuring correctly.

I plan to use 16% oil fuel for cars (recommended for my car) and learn what
is recommended for airplanes and helicopters ( I still have 5 gallons of
Heli fuel left though).  The LHS sells racing fuel for $29 per gallon for
30% nitro, 9% Oil, I plan to use 2/3rds gallon of 0% nitro, 16% oil mixed
with 1/3 gallon of their fuel to make a gallon of 10% nitro fuel.

The bottom line is that it's just like mixing 2 cycle oil for the weed eater
or chain saw except with more expensive ingredients :-(  The up side is that
I can save a few dollars for very little trouble and have fuel as good as
any I have ever bought.

RogerN
Six_O'Clock_High - 13 May 2009 02:38 GMT
> The bottom line is that it's just like mixing 2 cycle oil for the weed
> eater or chain saw except with more expensive ingredients :-(  The up side
> is that I can save a few dollars for very little trouble and have fuel as
> good as any I have ever bought.
>
> RogerN

When I discovered the LHS asking $10 for SuperTigre fuel (no nitro)  I got
into the mix your own business for exactly that reason.  My last galleon of
10% (BY VOLUME not weight like the 'professional' stuff} cost me something
like $9.89.
MJKolodziej - 13 May 2009 17:23 GMT
>> The bottom line is that it's just like mixing 2 cycle oil for the weed
>> eater or chain saw except with more expensive ingredients :-(  The up
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> of 10% (BY VOLUME not weight like the 'professional' stuff} cost me
> something like $9.89.

Roger, seal the drum and bottles TIGHT else you waste some and lose your
savings.
mk
RogerN - 14 May 2009 03:16 GMT
<snip>

>> When I discovered the LHS asking $10 for SuperTigre fuel (no nitro)  I
>> got into the mix your own business for exactly that reason.  My last
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> savings.
> mk

Yeah, they claim the methanol sucks the water out of the air pretty bad.  I
see that they use molecular sieves to remove water from ethanol, some
websites say it works the same on methanol as well.  The recommendations I
saw was for 3A zeolite, it's supposed to absorb water but not alcohol.  It
is used after the still gives maybe 95% alcohol, the molecular sieve removes
most of the remaining water to give 99.something percent pure.  They say you
can remove the water out of the zeolite by heat from an over, barbecue
grill, or spread it on a tarp to sun dry.  I thought I'd try some on
methanol if my hydrometer ever indicates high water content, I doubt it
would work on mixed fuel unless only water would be absorbed without
absorbing oil or nitro.

My first hydrometer reading was 0.792 and it was around 68 deg F outside, I
plan to check it each time I mix fuel to watch for changes.

RogerN
bm459@scn.org - 14 May 2009 15:21 GMT
> <snip>
>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> RogerN

Molecular sieves work by having a hole in the chemical structure that
water fits nicely.  Bigger molecules like oils or alcohols are too big
to fit into the hole in 3A so are not absorbed.

Regeneration by driving the water out with heat is easy enough.  Put
them on a tray on your kitchen oven and heat to 450 or 500 deg F for a
couple of hours.  Be sure to rinse them well with alcohol to get rid
of all the oils and nitro first.  Then dry them in air spread thinnly
on a tray for 48 hours or so to get rid of the methanol before you put
them in the oven.  If you skip the rinse and dry be prepared for a lot
of bad odor in the kitchen and perhaps a fire.  With a little luck you
might even be able to blow the door off the oven if you do it wrong.
If that happens you will probably blow out every window in the kitchen
too.

Drying ethanol and methanol are two entirely different issues.
Ethanol (95%) and water (5%) form something called an azeotrope.  An
azeotrope is simply the mixture of two compounds that boils at some
minimum temperature below the boiling points of any of the
ingredients.  The result is you can only purify ethanol to about 95%
by simple distillation.  There are a variety of tricks you can pull to
get that last 5% of water out of ethanol by distillation.  One is to
add benzene as benzene, ethanol and water form a tertiary azeotrope
that boils below the ethanol-water azeotrope.  But that leaves you
with ethanol containing small amounts of benzene and the benzene is
not always an acceptable ingredient.  So if you want pure ethanol mole
sieves is a decent way to dry out that last 5% of water without adding
any other organic compounds to your final ethanol.

Methanol on the other hand does not form an azeotrope with water so
you can simply distill it in a good still with 20 or 30 theoretical
plates and get dry methanol right from the still.

Either methanol or ethanol will tend to pick up water vapor from the
atmosphere.  However, the amount of water you pick up is so small it
is irrelevant for a model engine if you take the slightest care to at
least keep a loose lid on the containers.  If the containers are
sealed well enough that you do not see significant evaporation of the
fuel over a six month period you have them more than adequately sealed
to prevent significant water absorbtion.  After all 1 or 2% water in
your fuel does no harm at all in terms of engine performance.  If the
oil is staying in solution and the fuel is not becoming cloudy or
forming a separate layer due to oil being forced out of solution by
large amounts of water you are just fine.  All the fuss about a small
amount of water in fuel by a few in the model community is simply
mindless drivel by those who have no clue.  In fact there was a
published report in one of the model mags several years ago that
showed that a few % of water in fuel actually upped the RPMs in static
tests.  Water injection systems have even been installed on a variety
of internal combustion engines over the years to enhance power output.

If you buy a decent grade of methanol to start with it will not have
enough water in it to wrorry about.  With the most modest efforts to
keep it sealed it will never pick up enough water to cause a problem.
Thus there really is no reason to bother fooling around drying it to
some super dry condition with Mole Sieves.  On the other hand if you
want to burn ethanol, which if legally sold without all of the
government subsidies for fuel ethanol for on the road fuels, you will
pay more than you pay for methanol unless it is 95% stuff.  If it is
95% stuff you probably do need to dry it to get something that will
allow the oil to stay in solution.
MJKolodziej - 14 May 2009 17:31 GMT
If you skip the rinse and dry be prepared for a lot
of bad odor in the kitchen and perhaps a fire.  With a little luck you
might even be able to blow the door off the oven if you do it wrong.
If that happens you will probably blow out every window in the kitchen
too.

Now this thread get intresting.
<G>

All the fuss about a small
amount of water in fuel by a few in the model community is simply
mindless drivel by those who have no clue.  In fact there was a
published report in one of the model mags several years ago that
showed that a few % of water in fuel actually upped the RPMs in static
tests.  Water injection systems have even been installed on a variety
of internal combustion engines over the years to enhance power output.

Learned that from this group years ago.
mk
Ed Cregger - 14 May 2009 20:10 GMT
Some high altitude warcraft of WWII utilized a water injection system to up
the compression ratio resulting in more power.

Fuel will tolerate a bit of water before spoiling the fuel (things no longer
mix well after too much water). I wouldn't add water, but I wouldn't panic
if the watery fuel is running fine in your engines.

Ed Cregger

> If you skip the rinse and dry be prepared for a lot
> of bad odor in the kitchen and perhaps a fire.  With a little luck you
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Learned that from this group years ago.
> mk
Morgans - 14 May 2009 22:00 GMT
> Some high altitude warcraft of WWII utilized a water injection system to
> up the compression ratio resulting in more power.

The water injection allows higher power output by cooling the fuel-air
charge, which prevents detonation.  The blower can compress the mixture more
and the water keeps it cooler.  Without the water, the amount of boost
pressure has to be limited to prevent the engine from self destructing.

The engines that use water injections are engines that will be running at
near constant high power outputs.  Generators and pumps are frequent users
of water injection.  If the engine is going to have frequent large throttle
movements, the water will not be used, as it causes rough running at lower
power settings, plus the fact that the water is not needed to cool the
engine.

An airplane engine fits the bill, perfectly.  High power settings are what
they use in war power output selections.  Most of the time, they will not be
run that hard, because they carry a limited supply of water.  The higher
power available with water injection saved more than a few's bacon, for
sure.
Signature

Jim in NC

tony0707 - 29 May 2009 20:19 GMT
hi gentlemen-you are getting away from the purpose of this thread-which
is home brewed glo fuel-mixing and places to get the ingredience

Signature

tony0707

MJKolodziej - 29 May 2009 21:39 GMT
> hi gentlemen-you are getting away from the purpose of this thread-which
> is home brewed glo fuel-mixing and places to get the ingredience

Aww , C'mon, thread drift with us through some trivial education.
mk
RogerN - 30 May 2009 13:29 GMT
>> hi gentlemen-you are getting away from the purpose of this thread-which
>> is home brewed glo fuel-mixing and places to get the ingredience
>
> Aww , C'mon, thread drift with us through some trivial education.
> mk

Sort of an update, I've had a chance to run almost a gallon of the fuel
through the model cars and it runs great with only 8.25% nitro.  The only
difference I notice is I needed to adjust the mixture settings and my fuel
makes a little more smoke.  I think the difference is my fuel mix has more
oil.

I'm paying $11 per quart of oil from Tower hobbies, this makes the fuel
somewhat expensive.  If you figure a gallon of fuel containing 10% nitro,
20% oil, and 70% methanol, the expenses are $5-$7 for the nitro, $8-$9 for
oil, and ~$3 for methanol.  I guess that could explain why a gallon of car
racing fuel with 30% Nitro and 9% oil is $3-$4 cheaper (at LHS) than car
sport fuel with 20% nitro and a higher oil content.

Anyway, $11 per quart seems a little high for oil, not sure.  I'm hoping to
see if I can find some cheaper, maybe by the gallon or a 5 gallon bucket.  I
don't want lower quality, just a better price for buying a larger quantity.
I did see that Sig sells Baker AA castor for less than $25 per gallon, less
expensive than the $7 per PINT for Klotz racing castor from Tower.

Tower Hobbies does have their Klotz with quantity discounts, that combined
with free shipping and discount codes I might be able to get it down to $9
per quart or so.

Maybe next I'll see if I can get 4 gallons of 7.5% nitro out of a gallon of
30% nitro heli fuel that I've had for a few years.

RogerN
Tim Wescott - 31 May 2009 00:31 GMT
>>> hi gentlemen-you are getting away from the purpose of this
>>> thread-which is home brewed glo fuel-mixing and places to get the
>>> ingredience
>>>
>>> --
>>> tony0707

------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> tony0707's Profile: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/member.php?u=203556
>>> View this thread:
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> RogerN

Check with the same guy you bought the methanol from -- racing go-karts
and motorcycles use castor and Klotz, too, or else they wouldn't be
available for us modeling folks to play with.

Signature

www.wescottdesign.com

 
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