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Model Forum / Radio Controlled / Helicopters / June 2006Nose in, Shmose in...
OK, So I can't sleep so after farting around on www.runryder.com for the past couple hours, I decide to fire off G3 and try this whole nose-in thing yet again. 30 mins later, I'm wondering what all the fuss was about and why the hell I had such a hard time coming to grips with the control reversal. I thought I had limited fuel, but evidently I'd turned the unlimited fuel option on at some point in the past.. I was hovering and hovering and next thing I know, I'm nearly 25 minutes into the flight and I haven't wadded the thing up. I had to set it down 'cuz my eyes were drying out from staring at the monitor so intently. I'm not entirely sure, but I think the glass of Jack Daniels I had to try and get myself drowsy might have had something to do with it... Then again, maybe the proverbial light bulb just came on. I'll certainly not be trying that with the new Trex any time soon, but I'll most certinaly have a go at it with the Blade CP tomorrow (err, today) before work Yeah, it's easy, I can fly inverted, nose in, on the sim. But i'm f##@=d if i can get past tail in 'overin' on the Raptor 50. Ray > OK, So I can't sleep so after farting around on www.runryder.com for > the past couple hours, I decide to fire off G3 and try this whole [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > most certinaly have a go at it with the Blade CP tomorrow (err, today) > before work >Yeah, it's easy, I can fly inverted, nose in, on the sim. But i'm f##@=d if >i can get past tail in 'overin' on the Raptor 50. Ray Oh, I fly the hell out of the sim.. Unfortunately, I only have the "testicular fortitude" (read: balls) to do forward flight on the real thing. :) > Yeah, it's easy, I can fly inverted, nose in, on the sim. But i'm f##@=d > if i can get past tail in 'overin' on the Raptor 50. Ray There IS a subtle difference isn't there? :-)  SignatureBeav VN 750 Zed 1000 OMF# 19 >> Yeah, it's easy, I can fly inverted, nose in, on the sim. But i'm f##@=d >> if i can get past tail in 'overin' on the Raptor 50. Ray > >There IS a subtle difference isn't there? :-) I think the latin term is "ohmygawdus thisisus gonnacostalotus ificrashus" :) >>> Yeah, it's easy, I can fly inverted, nose in, on the sim. But i'm f##@=d >>> if i can get past tail in 'overin' on the Raptor 50. Ray [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I think the latin term is "ohmygawdus thisisus gonnacostalotus > ificrashus" A pal of mione who I taught to fly these model things has just taken his first 4 hours in the full size. (Enstrom 280FX). He's learning about the costs pretty quickly. Btw, over here it's 250 quid ph. (That's about 400 dollars ph I reckon) I believe his term was "Whatthefuckareyoutalkingbout" SignatureBeav VN 750 Zed 1000 OMF# 19 > Yeah, it's easy, I can fly inverted, nose in, on the sim. But i'm f##@=d if > i can get past tail in 'overin' on the Raptor 50. Ray Put that training undercarraige back on and learn nose-in from the ground up ;-) Seriously, there are many ways to practice - ground up, bringing the heli nose in from a circuit etc. There is no substitute for real stick time and just keep having a go with enough height to get you out of trouble - but not so much you can't see the darn heli! >> Yeah, it's easy, I can fly inverted, nose in, on the sim. But i'm f##@=d >> if >> i can get past tail in 'overin' on the Raptor 50. Ray > > Put that training undercarraige back on and learn nose-in from the > ground up ;-) I agree! I tried learning nose-in up high for way too long. Could never quite get the hang of it. I finally swallowed my pride, installed the training gear, put the model on the ground (nose to the wind), walked around in front of it, and was hovering nose-in within 2.5 to 3 tanks of fuel. Afterwards, the training gear came back off, and I haven't looked back since. I worked great for me, may or may not for you, but if you've tried just about everything else, it certainly can't hurt! ;-) Good luck & Fly Safe, Steve R. >>> Yeah, it's easy, I can fly inverted, nose in, on the sim. But i'm f##@=d >>> if [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > fuel. Afterwards, the training gear came back off, and I haven't looked > back since. You'll get a shock when some f.cker creeps up on you then Steve:-) > I worked great for me, may or may not for you, but if you've tried just > about everything else, it certainly can't hurt! ;-) Whatever works, works. It really IS that simple coz theres no right or wrong way, just the one that works. SignatureBeav VN 750 Zed 1000 OMF# 19 >>>> Yeah, it's easy, I can fly inverted, nose in, on the sim. But i'm >>>> f##@=d if [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > You'll get a shock when some f.cker creeps up on you then Steve:-) BTDT Beav! I've lost count of the number of times I've almost jumped out of my skin when someone unexpectedly walked up behind me. Ever tried to fly a model helicopter while standing there skinless? ;-) >> I worked great for me, may or may not for you, but if you've tried just >> about everything else, it certainly can't hurt! ;-) > > Whatever works, works. It really IS that simple coz theres no right or > wrong way, just the one that works. Exactly! :-) Fly Safe, Steve R> >>>>> Yeah, it's easy, I can fly inverted, nose in, on the sim. But i'm >>>>> f##@=d if [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > of my skin when someone unexpectedly walked up behind me. Ever tried to > fly a model helicopter while standing there skinless? ;-) I was once almost flying headless when a plank flyer decided he'd use me as the landing spot. And he was the safety officer of the club I belonged to. not for very much longer though :-) >>> I worked great for me, may or may not for you, but if you've tried just >>> about everything else, it certainly can't hurt! ;-) Absolutely. SignatureBeav VN 750 Zed 1000 OMF# 19 >I was once almost flying headless when a plank flyer decided he'd use me as >the landing spot. And he was the safety officer of the club I belonged to. >not for very much longer though :-) Must be that flat head of yours.. I wonder how many pints we could put up there before there was beer spillage.... :) >>I was once almost flying headless when a plank flyer decided he'd use me >>as [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Must be that flat head of yours.. I wonder how many pints we could > put up there before there was beer spillage.... :) Booze free zone me. Never touch the stuff, or the glasses it comes in. SignatureBeav VN 750 Zed 1000 OMF# 19 Beav sounds like the perfect girlfriend. 4ft, flat head, no teeth. You can rest your beer on her head whilst she gives you a BJ. >>I was once almost flying headless when a plank flyer decided he'd use me >>as [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Must be that flat head of yours.. I wonder how many pints we could > put up there before there was beer spillage.... :) > OK, So I can't sleep so after farting around on www.runryder.com for > the past couple hours, I decide to fire off G3 and try this whole [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > most certinaly have a go at it with the Blade CP tomorrow (err, today) > before work Learning to nose in on the sim is a BIG step in the right direction. If you practice enough the inputs will become second nature. The big problem for me was getting the nerve to try it with the flesh and bone copter. For some reason no matter how well prepared you think you are when it comes time to try it you will most probably balk just as I did. There will be a day however when you have finally had enough and it will just happen. That is when all that practice will pay off in a big way. I have been flying nose in for quite a while now but I still do at least 5 min of it each time I am on the sim and believe me it helps. I can fly inverted and do tic tocs and flips with the best of them on the sim. I am finding out that it takes a bit more time to translate that into real flying. I finally flipped my MX400 the other day and what a thrill that was. I did notice though that what happens in the sim is not always what happens in the real world however. On the sim I can flip 2 or 3 times in a row and lose no altitude at all because I have a perfectly setup bird. When I did it for real I was glad I was about 5 mistakes high because I lost altitude like there was no tomorrow. I got it around though and I know for a fact that the sim was in a great deal responsible for me not hitting the panic button as my beloved ship was headed for Mother Earth. So keep on practicing and you will certainly reap the rewards one of these days. Phil >Learning to nose in on the sim is a BIG step in the right direction. If you >practice enough the inputs will become second nature. The big problem for me >was getting the nerve to try it with the flesh and bone copter. Simulator aprehension is what the guys at the local shop call it.. >For some >reason no matter how well prepared you think you are when it comes time to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >for quite a while now but I still do at least 5 min of it each time I am on >the sim and believe me it helps. Yeah, I'm going to do nothing on the sim but nose-in work until I sack up and try it on the real thing.. I think I'm going to wait until I finish the Trex before I do tho. I think it might be a little less twitchy than the Blade... >I can fly inverted and do tic tocs and flips with the best of them on the >sim. I am finding out that it takes a bit more time to translate that into >real flying. I have no idea what half the tricks are called so I don't know if I can fly'em or not on the sim.. I can do loops and rolls and hover flips (both fore/aft and left/right) at will - on the sim. >I finally flipped my MX400 the other day and what a thrill that >was. I did loop the Blade a couple months back. I'm still waiting for my heart to slow down. :) > I did notice though that what happens in the sim is not always what >happens in the real world however. On the sim I can flip 2 or 3 times in a >row and lose no altitude at all because I have a perfectly setup bird. Yep. I've been setting the wind speed and gusting pretty high and jacking with the trims to try and make the sim harder to fly. It's definitely more challenging to fly in conditions like that. >When >I did it for real I was glad I was about 5 mistakes high because I lost >altitude like there was no tomorrow. I got it around though and I know for a >fact that the sim was in a great deal responsible for me not hitting the >panic button as my beloved ship was headed for Mother Earth. So keep on >practicing and you will certainly reap the rewards one of these days. That's what I'm hoping. I'll be happy if I can fly 3 or 4 full batteries and take the bird home in the same condition it was when I took it out. > Yeah, I'm going to do nothing on the sim but nose-in work until I sack > up and try it on the real thing.. I think I'm going to wait until I > finish the Trex before I do tho. I think it might be a little less > twitchy than the Blade... The Blade was the first chopper I flew nose in. At first I was having a heck of a time trying to do it because I did not have it trimmed out right and it was a handful to fly. After I finally got it trimmed and it was as stable as it would ever be considering it's size etc. I was able to nose it in with no trouble at all. I also think the pucker factor was not as bad because I had already crashed that thing so many times I could rebuild it with my eyes closed. Don't be afraid to try it with the Blade, you may be pleasantly surprised. Phil HI there! I found along the line that coming out of forward flight into a nose in attitude helped me a lot. I don't know. What's good for one, may not work for another. I first started coming in at a 90 degree attitude towards me (side facing me), and then gradually brought it in more "nose in". And if I got uncomfortable with it, I just flipped the tail around towards me. I am totally comfortable with nose in now, and am working on the sim at inverted now. THAT'S a challenge. I think by next year I'll actually try it for real. One thing that I will say, is that the most important thing to learn is really good hovering skills. All attitudes. If you are totally comfortable in a hover, then all you need to do is get to it. The fear factor stopped me for a number of years. Probably the most helpful thing for me was to actually get out with other pilots. They kind of "pushed" me to try new things that I might not have had the "b*#%S" to try. Now I've done my first loops, and am into extreme fast forward flight. Keep after it!! Practice, practice, practice. I only wish they'd had these cheap electric helis when I was learning how to fly. Would have saved me a TON of money!! I started on the GMP Cricket (wouldn't recommend it to anybody...), and parts costs were high. I think I spent easy 1,000 on parts before I could hover that thing, and it was challenging as a fixed pitch model anyway. Happy flying!! David >> Yeah, I'm going to do nothing on the sim but nose-in work until I sack >> up and try it on the real thing.. I think I'm going to wait until I [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Phil >HI there! >I found along the line that coming out of forward flight into a nose in [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >now. THAT'S a challenge. I think by next year I'll actually try it for >real. As long as the heli is still moving - doesn't matter how slow - the control reversal isn't an issue. As soon as it enters a hover it's like my brain forgets the control reversal... >One thing that I will say, is that the most important thing to learn is >really good hovering skills. All attitudes. If you are totally comfortable [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >things that I might not have had the "b*#%S" to try. Now I've done my first >loops, and am into extreme fast forward flight. I did loop the Blade a few months ago but haven't tried it again since I added all the upgrades... >Keep after it!! Practice, practice, practice. I only wish they'd had these >cheap electric helis when I was learning how to fly. Would have saved me a >TON of money!! I started on the GMP Cricket (wouldn't recommend it to >anybody...), and parts costs were high. I think I spent easy 1,000 on parts >before I could hover that thing, and it was challenging as a fixed pitch >model anyway. I think it cost me about the same on my JR50 to learn to hover.. I'd like to get that old thing flying again.. I have all the parts to rebuild it, just haven't had the desire to do so until now... Right after I finish the Trex, get the Raptor 50 dialed in and figure out this radio... >The Blade was the first chopper I flew nose in. At first I was having a heck >of a time trying to do it because I did not have it trimmed out right and it [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >closed. Don't be afraid to try it with the Blade, you may be pleasantly >surprised. I've got the Blade set up where it'll hover one handed once I get it "stable". I'm still figuring out this radio (Futaba 9CHP) and since it's my 1st computer radio, I'm still learning what does what. I may take the Blade out this weekend and give it a try, but I'm still going to work on the sim to try and get the control coordination down. > OK, So I can't sleep so after farting around on www.runryder.com for > the past couple hours, I decide to fire off G3 and try this whole [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > most certinaly have a go at it with the Blade CP tomorrow (err, today) > before work Yeah, when it's time to do some nose-in, it can depend on your mood, or even what you had for breakfast before going flying.. Maybe it has something to do with personality. Who knows? As for me, I'm never afraid to do an autorotation. I'll do it pretty much anytime, any day. But when it comes to nose-in hovering, I'll balk sometimes. Others are the exact opposite of me. They say I'm strange, but then, I think they're strange.. ? :) I guess it all boils down to experience. I figure there are 2 types. First is flight time experience. Second is 'How experienced do I feel?'.. aka confidence. I've got about 3 years on and off. The only sim I'll use is FMS, because no sim can truly simulate a real model. FMS has taught me basic flight with a heli. The rest has to be done with your hands connected to your brain while adjusting linkages on the model and/or radio programming, and then flying it in RL. marco >Yeah, when it's time to do some nose-in, it can depend on your mood, or >even what you had for breakfast before going flying.. Hmm.. Most days breakfast consists of a cup of coffee and some kind of protein bar.. Maybe I should opt for bacon and eggs and orange juice. (Damn that sounds good right now..) >Maybe it has something to do with personality. Who knows? I'm pretty much a Type A.. Funny, but I don't get irritated at all with the helicopters or myself when I wad one up. >As for me, I'm never afraid to do an autorotation. I'll do it pretty >much anytime, any day. Haven't done 'em in real life but for hovering autos. I do 'em all the time on the sim.. I'm sure I'll do 'em on the Trex and the Raptor once I get 'em flying. >But when it comes to nose-in hovering, I'll balk sometimes. Tried in the living room last night. Good ting the wife didn't see me hit the curtains. ehehhe I think I'll keep working on the nose-in thing outside from now on. :) >Others are the exact opposite of me. They say I'm strange, but then, I >think they're strange.. ? :) We're all strange in our own little.. um.. strange ways. :) >I guess it all boils down to experience. I figure there are 2 types. >First is flight time experience. Second is 'How experienced do I >feel?'.. aka confidence. Confidence is directly related to your available balance on your credit cards. >I've got about 3 years on and off. I'm just getting back into RC anything after about 15 years off.. I used to do cars, boats, planes and heli.. I think I'm back into it about 8 or 9 months now.. Things sure have changed. >The only sim I'll use is FMS, >because no sim can truly simulate a real model. FMS has taught me basic >flight with a heli. The rest has to be done with your hands connected >to your brain while adjusting linkages on the model and/or radio >programming, and then flying it in RL. Yep. Nothing beats burning fuel or electrons and setting up the heli by yourself is the only real way to learn to do it properly. My Blade took an entire day to get dialed in the 1st time after the upgrades.. The last crash it took me about 30 mins to replace all the mangled parts and about 20 minutes to get the mechanicals set up. Flies as good as it ever has now.. >> Yeah, when it's time to do some nose-in, it can depend on your mood, or >> even what you had for breakfast before going flying.. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I'm pretty much a Type A.. Funny, but I don't get irritated at all > with the helicopters or myself when I wad one up. Personalitywise, I tend to be type A as well, but we have established a difference. I get pissed off when I turn a perfect flybar into an S. I try to blame the radio or interference or something other that me, but it never works. >> As for me, I'm never afraid to do an autorotation. I'll do it pretty >> much anytime, any day. > > Haven't done 'em in real life but for hovering autos. I do 'em all > the time on the sim.. I'm sure I'll do 'em on the Trex and the Raptor > once I get 'em flying. It's easy. Do negative pitch until the last 10 feet or so, then increase the pitch to bring it to a smooth touchdown. (yeah, easier said than done, until you done it) From forward flight, engine quits: Up elevator, negative pitch, use the forward momentum to spin the blades faster while slowing the model, then settle with down elevator as forward speed slows. It really is that easy. You may break a couple of blades and bend a mainshaft or two, but you'll get it. >> But when it comes to nose-in hovering, I'll balk sometimes. > > Tried in the living room last night. Good ting the wife didn't see me > hit the curtains. ehehhe I think I'll keep working on the nose-in > thing outside from now on. :) I was talking about a .32 size glow powered model here, but I get where you're coming from. :) >> Others are the exact opposite of me. They say I'm strange, but then, I >> think they're strange.. ? :) > > We're all strange in our own little.. um.. strange ways. :) That we are. >> I guess it all boils down to experience. I figure there are 2 types. >> First is flight time experience. Second is 'How experienced do I >> feel?'.. aka confidence. > > Confidence is directly related to your available balance on your > credit cards. Yep. That can most assuredly affect confidence levels. >> I've got about 3 years on and off. > > I'm just getting back into RC anything after about 15 years off.. I > used to do cars, boats, planes and heli.. I think I'm back into it > about 8 or 9 months now.. Things sure have changed. I will agree with you there. That's for sure. Things have changed. I can't keep up with the latest greatest gadgets these days, like gyros that will straighten out your heli from a death dive, etc.. I think they are bullshit, and I think I may be right about that. I do stuff 'old-skool', and I'm still here to bore people to death about 'learning sh.t for yourself', etc.. But, I'm willing to help folks along the way as best I can. Except, when it comes to hovering nose-in. I'll balk, hit collective and bring it around FF, sometimes.. I can't help anyone with that.. :) >> The only sim I'll use is FMS, >> because no sim can truly simulate a real model. FMS has taught me basic [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > parts and about 20 minutes to get the mechanicals set up. Flies as > good as it ever has now.. I've pretty much given up on my blade. It sucks. Money, time, money, time, and more, guess what? Right. Money. It can't compare to a true model heli. Not anywhere near. A .32 glow is where you begin to have a real feel for helicopter flight. It's only the beginning. There's .50, .60, .90, and higher. Gassers! I'm still at the .32 level, but I can't wait. I would have been at the 50 or 60 level if I hadn't wasted my money on that damned blade cp and upgrades. Marco >Personalitywise, I tend to be type A as well, but we have established a >difference. I get pissed off when I turn a perfect flybar into an S. I >try to blame the radio or interference or something other that me, but >it never works. I figure it's part of the game. As long as I don't break expensive electronics or smoke an engine, it's no big deal. The only real irritation is when I've got 4 helos and none of 'em are airworthy.. >It's easy. Do negative pitch until the last 10 feet or so, then >increase the pitch to bring it to a smooth touchdown. (yeah, easier >said than done, until you done it) From forward flight, engine quits: >Up elevator, negative pitch, use the forward momentum to spin the blades >faster while slowing the model, then settle with down elevator as >forward speed slows. That'd get you killed in a real helo.. I'm not worried about doing them in real life.. Just gotta translate the real life experience into thumb movements.. >It really is that easy. You may break a couple of blades and bend a >mainshaft or two, but you'll get it. Hell, I'll do that with this nose-in crap.. >I was talking about a .32 size glow powered model here, but I get where >you're coming from. :) I've got two .50 sized glow machines and 2 'lectrics.. I'm thinking the Raptor might be going electric if I can find a conversion that doesn't cost as much as the damned kit did. >I will agree with you there. That's for sure. Things have changed. I >can't keep up with the latest greatest gadgets these days, like gyros [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >sh.t for yourself', etc.. But, I'm willing to help folks along the way >as best I can. I'm not a gadget freak. I learned to hover with an old mechanical gyro on a Schluter JR50 with a very finicky OS.46H.. Even after all the time away from the hobby, my left thumb still remembers how to drive the tail rotor. >Except, when it comes to hovering nose-in. I'll balk, hit collective and >bring it around FF, sometimes.. I can't help anyone with that.. :) hehe, I do the same thing on the sim, but I do a quick circle and come back to a nose-in hover and try again. >I've pretty much given up on my blade. It sucks. Money, time, money, >time, and more, guess what? Right. Money. My Blade flies one handed once it's in a stable hover. Then again, I've got about $250 in upgrades in it. It's fun to buzz around the house. Occasionally I'll take it out in the cul-de-sac or out back and fly it around, but the wind plays hell with it'cuz it's so damned light. >It can't compare to a true model heli. Not anywhere near. A .32 glow >is where you begin to have a real feel for helicopter flight. It's only >the beginning. There's .50, .60, .90, and higher. Gassers! I'm still >at the .32 level, but I can't wait. I would have been at the 50 or 60 >level if I hadn't wasted my money on that damned blade cp and upgrades. I'd never flown anything smaller than a 50 until I got the Blade. I do have a Trex 450SE in the works and hope to have it in the air for trimming flights this weekend. >>It's easy. Do negative pitch until the last 10 feet or so, then >>increase the pitch to bring it to a smooth touchdown. (yeah, easier [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > them in real life.. Just gotta translate the real life experience > into thumb movements.. There are lots of things we do routinely with RC model helicopter that would get you killed in the real thing. I wish they could produce a certified design that had the "strength to weight," not to mention the "power to weight" ratios that our models do. How about a 4G vertical climb in a Jet Ranger! :-D >>I was talking about a .32 size glow powered model here, but I get where >>you're coming from. :) > > I've got two .50 sized glow machines and 2 'lectrics.. I'm thinking > the Raptor might be going electric if I can find a conversion that > doesn't cost as much as the damned kit did. I'm not sure that the conversion kit itself would be that expensive. What would cost would be the batteries, speed controller, and motor! Not to mention a completely new set of battery chargers if you don't already have them. That's one of the things that have kept me from getting heavily into electrics. Every time they come out with a bigger and badder battery, it's another $100 to $150 for the darned charger! :-( >There are lots of things we do routinely with RC model helicopter that would >get you killed in the real thing. I wish they could produce a certified >design that had the "strength to weight," not to mention the "power to >weight" ratios that our models do. How about a 4G vertical climb in a Jet >Ranger! :-D So an R22 can't do aileron tic-tocs?? :) I asked the factory service manager at Robinson what the G limits were for the Robby aircraft. He said he didn't know as those numbers aren't required for certification. I know a lightly loaded r44 on a cool day at sea level performing a max performance takeoff will REALLY push your a.s down into the seat... Dunno if it "pulled" 2G but it sure flet like it. >I'm not sure that the conversion kit itself would be that expensive. What >would cost would be the batteries, speed controller, and motor! The least expensive complete setup (less batteries) runs about $479US. batteries aren't an issue. Someone discovered the batteries in Milwaukee cordless tools are LiMoly's, cost about $90US and work just fine. You just have to do some destructive surgery to get the cells out of the packaging and they charge on your "standard" LiPo charger. >Not to >mention a completely new set of battery chargers if you don't already have >them. That's one of the things that have kept me from getting heavily into >electrics. Every time they come out with a bigger and badder battery, it's >another $100 to $150 for the darned charger! :-( yeah, my little Edge 40 foamy cost $15 to build, $167 for the electronics, $40 for the batteries and $120 for a new charger. I bought a Triton and I'd say it's been worth every penny. Charges everything I can throw at it. I even charged my motorcycle battery with it a month or so ago. (Left the parking lights on in the garage over a weekend..) I really like the simplicity of the electrics. Just haul a bunch of charged batteries, your Tx and the bird to the loal park and have at it. No noise to speak of, no post-run cleanup, no field box etc... Just finished setting up the new TrexSE's rotorhead and should have it flying tomorrow...I think I've just about figured out this friggin' radio too! |
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