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Model Forum / Radio Controlled / Helicopters / May 2006Simple question - I hope!
I am looking to buy a cheap RC helicopter to start with. Looking on eBay there are many pretty cheap ones (probably scorned by serious flyers!). Most of them have just a separate speed control on the main rotor and tail rotor. So my thinking is that they will only be able to rise in the air, hover and spin, but not make any forward or backwards movement. Am I being naive in this assumption or is there some worth in these cheap models? Thanks Nigel >I am looking to buy a cheap RC helicopter to start with. > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Nigel get a sabre from hobby stores ready to fly for £109. or the esky for £99 or the twister bell 47 for £119. anything else is in the cheap crap territory. If you can stretch to it a hummingbird v3£150 Ian, Thank-you for that useful info. Of course for a newbie (who might not be able to handle helio flying) those prices are on the expensive side. I imagine a crash due to inexperience could be quite costly. So I wonder if these eBay models, whilst cheap and crappy, might still have a place? Do you think they are limited in their flying in the way I thought? In which case obviously they aren't much use, since straight up and down ain't flying even if it can pirouette! Nigel >>I am looking to buy a cheap RC helicopter to start with. >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > If you can stretch to it a hummingbird v3£150 The ones i mentioned are proper helos with a swash plate and at least a 4 channel controller. I bought a cheap one that doesn't have one. It is fun to fly but pretty much uncontrollable. Buy the ones i mentioned 2nd hand if necessary but spend less than £100 new on a retail model and its probably just a toy up, down, maybe some rudder if you are lucky. go to yell.com and do a search for model shops 10 miles within your postal code area. also http://www.wingsnwheelsspectacular.com/ has a great big list of traders. also a bring and buy during the show. As for crash due to inexperience, well i crashed my bell twister 47 several times. the main weakness are the rotor blades but you get 4 spare blades in the box. a pair of blades are £8.99 after that. helos are not easy to fly but are very rewarding. Once you have watched the video that comes with the twister bell and made adjsutments accordingly you should be able to hover in a church hall. Once you are more accomplished you should manage in a spacious living room. i went to www.hurricanemodels.co.uk and they hovered a demo model right infront of me. they offered me the demo model already trimmed up by themselves and hovered it without adjustment right in front of me. I wanted the whole experience so went with an unopened box. I also joined an indoor flying club straight away. If you want no commitment easy peasy straight out of the box then stick to cars, boats and hovercraft. > Ian, > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >> >> If you can stretch to it a hummingbird v3£150 Thanks again Ian for your detailed reply. I realise there is a whole lot more to flying a 'copter than a plane (which is difficult enough to fly properly!). I have so far only tried flying those in Flight Simulator and once moving forward it's O.K. but trying to establish a steady hover is very hard. So I am prepared for difficulty and that is what makes me nervous of spending much at the outset. However like a workman is only as good as his tools, I can see a crap model isn't going to help my confidence or learning. So I must get over my scroogeness! I have watched the helios training at Shoreham (nearby) and see the apparently simple maneuvers that are practiced over and over. I seem to remember hearing somewhere from an experienced pilot that what you must do is keep the cyclic (joystick?) moving, never hold it steady or you will quickly end up in trouble! Not sure how good advice that is, but it does work in FS. Nigel > The ones i mentioned are proper helos with a swash plate and at least a 4 > channel controller. I bought a cheap one that doesn't have one. It is [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] >>> >>> If you can stretch to it a hummingbird v3£150 Initial full sized hover training in a heli is very stressful and hardwork. Hovering is only one element - landing and taking off, spot turns, hover taxiing also have to be learnt. I seem to remember being let loose to do three solo take offs and landings after about 10hours training. There is no joy in the 'stick', which is what it is called. Why you would want to stir it around just for the sake of stirring it beats me. You are right that if you hold it steady during the hover the heli being dynamically unstable will soon drift and need correction, but needless stirring could compound drift. It is all about anticipation and correction. The collective is called the 'lever' on a full sized. Flying a model is again completely different to full-sized as there are all the attitude problems. However stirring of the sticks for the sake of it is not necessary. The timescales in learning to fly a model could be similar - regular practice is what is required for either models or full sized. Regards Peter > Thanks again Ian for your detailed reply. > [quoted text clipped - 80 lines] >>>> >>>> If you can stretch to it a hummingbird v3£150 Due to being very small micro copters do less damage when they crash cos they have so little inertia. apparently the hummingbird v3 is bullet proof. whereas my twisters rotor blades seem brittle some of the slightly bigger ones have rotors that semi collapse like a fly folding its wings back. Simply pull straight and you are off again. personally the twister was a false economy i would go for the v3 straight away. Thanks again Ian. All useful info, which I really appreciate. Nigel > Due to being very small micro copters do less damage when they crash cos > they have so little inertia. apparently the hummingbird v3 is bullet > proof. whereas my twisters rotor blades seem brittle some of the slightly > bigger ones have rotors that semi collapse like a fly folding its wings > back. Simply pull straight and you are off again. personally the twister > was a false economy i would go for the v3 straight away. Peter, There you go, it'll teach me for taking a glib comment to seriously! The pilot probably meant what you are saying, that you have to move it and not try to hold it steady regardless, but move it sensibly for all that. I will certainly have problem with attitude with an RC model. The one thing that amazes me, seeing others flying (or driving any RC model), is reversing the mental viewpoint when the model is coming at you instead of away. I am sure I will take some time putting my mind into the seat rather than the fixed viewpoint on the ground. Nigel > Initial full sized hover training in a heli is very stressful and > hardwork. Hovering is only one element - landing and taking off, spot [quoted text clipped - 103 lines] >>>>> >>>>> If you can stretch to it a hummingbird v3£150 > Peter, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Nigel on that point i was advised to hover with heli facing away and to practice keeping the tail facing me. Once sussed then heli face the right, then left, finally facing you. Then start on the actual circumnavigating the room/hall/airfield. All part of the fun. >on that point i was advised to hover with heli facing away and to practice >keeping the tail facing me. Once sussed then heli face the right, then >left, finally facing you. Then start on the actual circumnavigating the >room/hall/airfield. Yep. Nose out, nose 45 degrees to either side, then 90 degrees to either side, then nose in. If you're feeling froggy, try the nose at 135 degrees. (That's a brain drainer) Once you're hovering, fly in a slow circle around you, then a circle in front of you, then try some figures 8s in front of you. Work on maintaining altitude ground track and airspeed. Dont' forget to keep practicing the hover stuff.. >All part of the fun. and frustration! :) >Initial full sized hover training in a heli is very stressful and hardwork. >Hovering is only one element - landing and taking off, spot turns, hover >taxiing also have to be learnt. I seem to remember being let loose to do >three solo take offs and landings after about 10hours training. Yep.. Did you need finger sized dents in the cyclic grip and the collective?? I know I did when I soloed. Now when I hover, I don't even think about it.. It just kinda happens. >There is no joy in the 'stick', which is what it is called. Why you would >want to stir it around just for the sake of stirring it beats me. You are >right that if you hold it steady during the hover the heli being dynamically >unstable will soon drift and need correction, but needless stirring could >compound drift. It is all about anticipation and correction. Try this next time you're up. Get into a hover in ground effect. Now stir the cyclic rapidly in a circle. You'll settle right to the ground. You're correct about anticipation and correction, but also you need to remove that correction in time to stop movement back in the direction of correction. >The collective is called the 'lever' on a full sized. maybe on your side of the pond, but we call it <gasp!> the collective. :) >Flying a model is again completely different to full-sized as there are all >the attitude problems. However stirring of the sticks for the sake of it is >not necessary. The timescales in learning to fly a model could be similar - >regular practice is what is required for either models or full sized. To the OP: Practice, practice, practice. The sim will help, but you need to remember the sim has perfectly set up helicopters, perfectly trimmed, perfectly programmed pitch and throttle curves and no wind. Your real life experience won't be so perfect. A larger helicopter will be easier to hover as it'll be a bit more stable and less affected by wind. Unfortunately, there's nothing cheap or easy about RC helicopters.. I'm not a complete heli nut like some of the people I've seen at the local shop, but I've got quite a bit of money invested in my 4 birds... Not to mention my radio, my field box and all the other little tools and gizmos I use to set up and maintain them. > To the OP: Practice, practice, practice. The sim will help, but you > need to remember the sim has perfectly set up helicopters, perfectly > trimmed, perfectly programmed pitch and throttle curves and no wind. Which sim are you flying? ;-) I've yet to find one that I'd consider even "close" to being perfectly trimmed or having proper pitch and throttle curves. The "no wind" part is true but I've found it easier to fly in a light breeze than in dead calm conditions. Sims are great for helping the student, regardless of how experienced they are, develop certain reflexes but there's still nothing like flying the real thing. :-) Fly Safe, Steve R. >Which sim are you flying? ;-) I've yet to find one that I'd consider even >"close" to being perfectly trimmed or having proper pitch and throttle >curves. The "no wind" part is true but I've found it easier to fly in a >light breeze than in dead calm conditions. I'm doing the G3 thing thee days. Sold my G2 for $100 and got G3 for $199. Not a bad deal altogether. The sim is easy to fly. Load up any of the helos (except the JetRanger with the scale head which flies like crap) and fly 'em. Piece of cake to hover 'em. >Sims are great for helping the student, regardless of how experienced they >are, develop certain reflexes but there's still nothing like flying the real >thing. :-) I agree. I can do all kinds of cool crap on the sim, but won't attempt it with the real machine - yet. :) >>Which sim are you flying? ;-) I've yet to find one that I'd consider >>even [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > any of the helos (except the JetRanger with the scale head which flies > like crap) and fly 'em. Piece of cake to hover 'em. Actually, I agree with you. I've got the G3 and have been very happy with it. I do find it a bit twitchy in a hover, even on the "low" control rates. It just doesn't seem to want to "sit" in a hover like my real machines do. >Actually, I agree with you. I've got the G3 and have been very happy with >it. I do find it a bit twitchy in a hover, even on the "low" control rates. >It just doesn't seem to want to "sit" in a hover like my real machines do. My one real bitch with the thing is how the helos land on objects other than the ground.. They tend to get pulled down to the object like they're magnetized... I was goofing around a week or so ago, landing on benches etc and if you get the skids within' a half a foot or so (estimating of course) the helo just plops down onto the object and sticks to it. Being a complete novice in this. Could this be what in other situations they call the 'ground effect'? I'm not sure quite how it would effect a helicopter. On the face of it one might think of it creating a cushion which would have an opposite effect. Nigel >>Actually, I agree with you. I've got the G3 and have been very happy with >>it. I do find it a bit twitchy in a hover, even on the "low" control [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > or so (estimating of course) the helo just plops down onto the object > and sticks to it. Nigel, In my opinion there are two issues with 'Ground Effect' with a heli The first as you point out is a cushion - where there is a slight force trying to keep you off terra firma. But the biggest problem is that your rotors are moving through dirty (turbulent air). This means that the lift generated is irratic and there are more forces pushing your heli this way and that. The reality is that you don't get a stable cushion effect, like with hovercraft, you get a twitchy and erratic hover. As soon as you rise above it into clean air the difference is stark. I trust you've been down to Sussex Model Centre at Worthing to see what they have. To be honest, I wouldI would stay away from the cheapies. If you insist on something cheap, unbreakable, stable and a good learning experience, consider a Hoverfly. Yes it is tethered, but you can fly inside for as long as you want without mucking about with batteries. Yes it does have a weird rotor, but believe me it is very very clever and feels like the real thing. Website here - http://www.snelflight.co.uk/index2.htm Unfortunately, we catch them as they are relocating so their online shop is closed. If you have a basic 4 channel TX already then it is yours for £58. Cheers, Another Nigel from Sussex "Nigel Heather" <No-Spam@No-Spam.com> wrote in message > To be honest, I wouldI would stay away from the cheapies. If you insist > on something cheap, unbreakable, stable and a good learning experience, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Another Nigel from Sussex wired flight is like having walkie talkies with avery long cord instead of a transciver. Hi. I went the cheap and expencive route. I purchased a hummingbird v3 which was quite good but not having enough space in the house, i kept crashing it. Ok, its £5 here and £8 there, never more than £12 in any crash except for a new tail boom which i replaced with an aliminium one - same weight, and just bend it back in to shape. With that I downloaded FMS sim, and with another £11, I got an interface to fit my tx. to date I have spent 40 hours on the sim. As the Humming bird started to cost as much as a full sized I/C in spares purly because I kept trying to fly in a 5 foot square area (avoiding 5 cats and a bird), I went out and purchased a Raptor. The Raptor was much more easier to hover, well, i guess, having to fly it out doors gave me the room I required. The weight made it more stable. And with the 40 odd hours on FMS, I threw away the training gear after putting the raptor in the air for around 10-15 hoursr. yeah I have found it a little intensive, ok very nerve wrecking trying to get the heli to stop moving in any direction before landing but keeping it tail in while doing a complete circle around me at eye height is no problem. Below 2-3 feet, then you start getting ground effect and the circle gets harder. So. yeah, a Hummingbird v3 is good. now i can hover the Raptor, I can fly the Hummingbird in the space I have available. and any crash on the Hummingbird doesnt cost much... I have crashed it more times than I have had to purchase spares. Crash on the Raptor ? I have heard the thud next to me about 4, maybe 5 times now but not mine YET... It will happen... just not yet :-) If your interested, I have writen a blog on my flying experiances on http://fly.to/hamble-helicopters there is a popup which you close then click on the image. That way, I had free redirection from a nifty url :-) To add to my collection I have just purchased a Ark X400 elecric heli, not cheap but being electric, I can take it down the local park and fly for an hour (thanks to the field charger). The I/C I fly on wednesdays, saturdays and at the club on Sundays under the guidance of Ken Gale. Ooh this is getting long. Ill leave it there, If you want to email me direct, the email address works... Cheers Pete. >Being a complete novice in this. Could this be what in other situations they >call the 'ground effect'? >I'm not sure quite how it would effect a helicopter. On the face of it one >might think of it creating a cushion which would have an opposite effect. No, ground effect is kinda the opposite.. It's almost literally a cushion of air under the helo caused by the ground stopping/slowing the downward flow of air from the rotors. Air is pulled from above the rotors and "pushed" downward. This vertical airflow is called inflow and affects angle of attack. More inflow, less angle of attack, more power required to hover. Less inflow, higher angle of attack, less power required to hover. When the ground slows the downwash, inflow is reduced, AoA is increased (Note, the blade pitch doesn't change - pitch and AoA are not the same) therefor lift is increased so the heli needs to be "coaxed" down with gently applied down collective. >>Actually, I agree with you. I've got the G3 and have been very happy with >>it. I do find it a bit twitchy in a hover, even on the "low" control [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > or so (estimating of course) the helo just plops down onto the object > and sticks to it. I had a different problem when trying to land on something like a table. After a number of tries, I was able to put the virtual model down on the table. As long as I kept it light on the skids, still flying for all intents and purposes, it was fine. When I tried to throttle down below that, it would get in a harmonic and vibrate itself off of whatever I was trying to land on. "Very" frustrating! On other sims, I've had something similar to what you describe. It's like the table surface isn't really there. Not until the rotor blades get to it anyway!? :-/ >I had a different problem when trying to land on something like a table. >After a number of tries, I was able to put the virtual model down on the >table. As long as I kept it light on the skids, still flying for all >intents and purposes, it was fine. When I tried to throttle down below >that, it would get in a harmonic and vibrate itself off of whatever I was >trying to land on. "Very" frustrating! Hmm.. I've only landed on things in Idle up and never spooled down.. I think I'll try that... Nope, no problem at all. Still gets sucked down to the surface. Load up the Raptor 60 and the Great Planes Test Site. Land on the "concrete" benches at your 4 o'clock. The helo seems to stick to 'em... Which field/table/model? I wanna try... >On other sims, I've had something similar to what you describe. It's like >the table surface isn't really there. Not until the rotor blades get to it >anyway!? :-/ NO, I can definitely land on 'em - in fact, I left the Raptor 60 idling on one of the benches to come finish this post. |
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