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Model Forum / Radio Controlled / Helicopters / April 2007Kits and Gyros
I have a little experience with some small RTF electric helicopters. I was kind of thinking about getting a Century Hawk, but I'm not at all familiar with fuel powered helis or building one from a kit. How hard is it for someone starting out to build a helicopter from a kit, do you have to know something about motors? Or how to set it up? Basically all the adjusting I've had to do on my electrics is to set the trim. Also, I have no idea at this point what a gyro is or what it's supposed to do. I don't believe it comes with a Century Hawk kit, is that right? Is a gyro something that I will want or need? How difficult would it be to add it later? Do electric helicopters generally have them? What's a good source for finding out what it does? Hi Iarwain, >I have a little experience with some small RTF electric helicopters. > I was kind of thinking about getting a Century Hawk, but I'm not at [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Basically all the adjusting I've had to do on my electrics is to set > the trim. Well, let's see: 1. How hard is it for someone startingout to build a helicopter from a kit? That depends entirely on how mechanically inclined you are. Building a model helicopter kit like the Century is pretty much a "bolt part A to part B" kind of thing. It's not generally very complicated. It is important that everything be built up square, the rotating parts are properly balanced, any screws or bolts that are threaded into metal fittings are properly loctited. Loctite is a liquid substance that lightly glues the bolt in place so it's less likely to vibrate out. You'll want the medium strength for most applications. The directions will tell you about it. I like to see a person such as yourself build their first machine. You'll learn a LOT about how it goes together which will make things a lot easier when the inevitable crash comes along. 2. Do you have to know something about motors? Absolutely! Some motors require some amount of break-in. These days, that's usually done in the model during the initial flights. It's not complicated. You'll also have to learn to properly set the mixture on the carburator. It's not hard to do either but you'll need a little experience to learn to tell when it's too rich or too lean. The engine will tell you that by how it sounds and how much smoke is coming out of the exhaust. 3. Do you have to know how to setup the model? Again, absolutely! A model like the Century is capable of "so" much more than the little electrics you're used to playing around with. There's simply no contest. It can be made to be as docile as a new born kitten or as quick and touchy as a spitting cobra. It's all in the setup. Is that hard to do? No! But it's something you'll have to learn. I'd strongly recommend finding a local expert who can help you with all of this. Once they've got you up and running, you'll be on your way. Also, if you can fly one of those RTF electrics without any significant problems, you'll be "amazed" at how stable the Century will be once it's properly setup. The larger machines are much easier to fly IMO! > Also, I have no idea at this point what a gyro is or what it's > supposed to do. I don't believe it comes with a Century Hawk kit, is > that right? Is a gyro something that I will want or need? How > difficult would it be to add it later? Do electric helicopters > generally have them? What's a good source for finding out what it > does? A gyro is a device that's capable of sensing the movement of the aircraft around whatever axis it (the gyro) is set to sense. In the case of a model helicopter, it's designed to work with the tail rotor to stabilize the yaw axis. The original gyros (way back when!) were little electric motors with brass flyweights attached to either side of the motor. That assembly was mounted on a gimble not unlike the gimbles that the control sticks on your transmitter use. If the model turned left or right, the gyro would sense the movement and send a signal to the tail rotor servo to try to stop the motion. The problem with this old mechanical system is that it didn't know or care whether that yaw movement came from an unwanted gust of wind or the pilot themselves. You're trying to turn the helicopter and the gyro is fighting you all the way. Was that a big deal? Not really. It's just the way it was. Modern gyros these days have no moving parts. They're all electronic and the programming on them is such that they control the tail rotor precisely according to what you (the pilot) is telling the machine to do. Most these days are what we call "heading hold (HH)" gyros. That means they're capable of precisely holding the helicopter on a given heading regardless of what the wind or the models direction of travel is doing. The difference between these and the old mechanical versions is more than night and day! I'd recommend something along the line of the Futaba 401 gyro. It's one of the better "bang for the buck" gyros out there. Good luck & Fly Safe, Steve R. Thanks for the explanations. I'm pretty confident I could assemble the thing but you're scaring me a little with the tweaking the motor thing, I've never set the carb on my car. The gyro sounds like it would be a big aid in flying. How difficult is it to add one, it goes on the radio doesn't it? Is there a lot of tweaking involved with that also? > Thanks for the explanations. I'm pretty confident I could assemble > the thing but you're scaring me a little with the tweaking the motor [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > is it to add one, it goes on the radio doesn't it? Is there a lot of > tweaking involved with that also? tweaking the carb is quite easy its a bit like turning on a tap, the more you unscrew the adjustment needle the more fuel it adds to the engine and the more you screw it in the less fuel it adds and once this is set it will stay more or less in tune as for a gyro I don't know of any flyer down at my club that flys without a using a gyro and most people are using heading hold, all you do is plug the gyro into the tail channel on the receiver and plug the tail servo into the gyro and I personally would not even attempt to fly without one > Thanks for the explanations. I'm pretty confident I could assemble > the thing but you're scaring me a little with the tweaking the motor > thing, I've never set the carb on my car. Don't be afraid of the carb. It's not a big deal. Funfly3 gave you a pretty good explanation. If you can find someone that can help you with the initial setups for the model and the engine, it'll make a lot more sense. Out of curiosity, what part of the world are you in? If I'm close, I'd be more than willing to help and if there's someone out there close to you and reading this, they might be willing to volunteer some time too. If you're in the US or Canada, you might check out this web site: http://www.pilotlocator.net/ I'm in Texas! > The gyro sounds like it would be a big aid in flying. How difficult > is it to add one, it goes on the radio doesn't it? Is there a lot of > tweaking involved with that also? The gyro is probably (IMO!) the single biggest aid to flying a model helicopter that's available. There is no pilot I've met in the last 20 years that does't use them and that includes the very best pilots in the world. The gyro isn't any harder to install than the servos and receiver are. Again, there's a certain amount of mechanical setup that needs to be done but that's true of the rest of the controls too. It's just part of the process. Don't let it scare you off. :-) Good luck & Fly Safe, Steve R. > I have a little experience with some small RTF electric helicopters. > I was kind of thinking about getting a Century Hawk, but I'm not at [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > generally have them? What's a good source for finding out what it > does? Go to www.rcgroups.com and read the Helicopter forums and ask questions there also. A lot of good people there to help you as well as here. However, this newsgroup isn't as active. >> I have a little experience with some small RTF electric helicopters. >> I was kind of thinking about getting a Century Hawk, but I'm not at [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > there also. A lot of good people there to help you as well as here. > However, this newsgroup isn't as active. That's because it's gone almost exclusively electric.  SignatureBeav VN 750 Zed 1000 OMF# 19 >> Go to www.rcgroups.com and read the Helicopter forums and ask questions >> there also. A lot of good people there to help you as well as here. >> However, this newsgroup isn't as active. > >That's because it's gone almost exclusively electric. Which has (if I may steal this line from Beav) f.ck all to do with the name of this group.. Electric, nitro, gas or turbine, it's still all relevant... The problem is the newbies only know the web forums and don't know jack about usenet... WP, thanks for the link. I'm sorry to hear that this newsgroup isn't very active. Web forums are all right, but I've always preferred the stripped down simplicity of Usenet. Maybe we can bring it back to life. Steve R, I live in Indiana, nowhere near Texas. I know someone who is very active in the local rc club, so I'm sure he can help me with the motor should the need arise. They deal mostly with planes however. I guess I'll be getting a gyro then, they sound like a big advantage. In fact, I just got my tax check. I was planning on saving it to help pay off my property taxes, but it sure is tempting to get myself a kit instead.... Probably the smart thing to do is wait until I totally destroy me electric before moving up :) > Steve R, I live in Indiana, nowhere near Texas. I know someone who is > very active in the local rc club, so I'm sure he can help me with the > motor should the need arise. They deal mostly with planes > however. Hi Iarwain, Definitely check out http://www.pilotlocator.net/. Just click on the state of Indiana and you'll get a list of folks with names, locations, and email addresses. I scanned the names and the one person that rings a bell with me is Mark Fadely in Fisher, IN. I've met him on several occasions. He's a "very" competent pilot and can definitely help you with any aspect of model helicopters that you have questions on. He also writes articles for MHT (Model Helicopter Technique) magazine from time to time if I'm not mistaken. If he isn't close enough to you or is simply too busy at the time (he does have family obligations!), I'm sure he could point you toward someone who might be able to help. Best of luck & Fly Safe, Steve R. > WP, thanks for the link. I'm sorry to hear that this newsgroup isn't > very active. Web forums are all right, but I've always preferred the > stripped down simplicity of Usenet. Maybe we can bring it back to > life. For that we must have bad language, an "anti-noob" policy and we have to pik on ANYONE that doesn't fly the same sh.t we personally fly. It's the way of usenet. Always has been, always will be. > Steve R, I live in Indiana, nowhere near Texas. I know someone who is > very active in the local rc club, so I'm sure he can help me with the > motor should the need arise. And of course, we must hate all furriners, no matter where we live. That means you - as a spetic - are the enemy. They deal mostly with planes > however. And no talk of planks or their owners. That's heresy. > I guess I'll be getting a gyro then, they sound like a big advantage. At one time NO-ONE used gyro's and then one or two people did and NOW, just about everyone uses them. At one time, we all walked everywhere, then someone invented the car and NOW, we don't even walk TO the car. Cars are less necessary than a Heading Hold Gyro. > In fact, I just got my tax check. I was planning on saving it to help > pay off my property taxes, but it sure is tempting to get myself a kit > instead.... Probably the smart thing to do is wait until I totally > destroy me electric before moving up :) Helicopters have sweet f.ck all to do the being smart. They're fun and that's all that matters. You can always sell your house when the IRS comes knocking. SignatureBeav VN 750 Zed 1000 OMF# 19 You need to start with an electric micro like a Blade CP something like that. Yes u need a Head Hold Gyro. A Gyro in theory keeps your tail locked in one position. I learned in the good ole days with a Baron 30 MX Gasser with NO GYRO! I never progressed to much more than a wild Hover in 3 years.. Now I fly a Century Swift 16 Tango 45/10 Futaba 401 Futaba 9chp... Various batteries LIPOS including Emolis. I prefer the Electrics over Gassers. I can fly loops, and a few tame things. The key is I can now actually fly the thing and not just hover. Good Luck but buy a HH Gyro with a digital servo, and select the best Transmitter you can afford, then acutally purchase one that is BETTER! Don't cut corners!! Get GOOD equipment!! > Also, I have no idea at this point what a gyro is or what it's > supposed to do. I don't believe it comes with a Century Hawk kit, is > that right? Is a gyro something that I will want or need? How > difficult would it be to add it later? Do electric helicopters > generally have them? What's a good source for finding out what it > does? You wi;; also find a lot of help with your Hawk here on RR: http://runryder.com/helicopter/f48p1/ There is a great "sticky" at the top of that forum. > You need to start with an electric micro like a Blade CP something like > that. Yes u need a Head Hold Gyro. A Gyro in theory keeps your tail [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> generally have them? What's a good source for finding out what it >> does? If you ner flew a heli before I suggest a small electric lake the Blade CP or CP Pro. You should consider the Align T-REX 450. Building is easy if you take your time. My first advise is: GET A SIM!!!!! Realflight G3.5. This will save you a lot of$$ Marc >If you ner flew a heli before I suggest a small electric lake the >Blade CP or CP Pro. You should consider the Align T-REX 450. Building >is easy if you take your time. My first advise is: GET A SIM!!!!! >Realflight G3.5. This will save you a lot of$$ For an absolute newbie, a collective pitch micro is NOT going to affect a positive experience. Much too twitchy and unstable for beginners... A better solution would be a sim and one of the counter-rotating birds like the Blade CX.. Use the CX until you're comfortable with hovering in all orientations and THEN upgrade to a collective pitch heli. If you can afford it, the Trex450 is a good choice. Roughly twice the size of a micro, it's much more stable, much more durable and parts are very inexpensive and available at most hobby shops. I've read a lot of "OTHER Kevin's" stuff on the web and generally agree with his attitudes and suggestions but I'll take some minor exceptions here! ;-) >>If you ner flew a heli before I suggest a small electric lake the >>Blade CP or CP Pro. You should consider the Align T-REX 450. Building [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > affect a positive experience. Much too twitchy and unstable for > beginners... The statement "can" be true but it definitely doesn't "have" to be true. If you've got experienced people around you that can help you with the initial setups and trims, there's no reason for a collective pitch micro to be a negative experience. Whether they're unstable and twitchy or not is all in the setup. I can take an Align T-Rex from almost uncontrollably sensitive to totally dead on the controls with very little effort one way or the other. It's all in the setup and it's not difficult to do once you understand what's going on. A better solution would be a sim and one of the > counter-rotating birds like the Blade CX.. Use the CX until you're > comfortable with hovering in all orientations and THEN upgrade to a > collective pitch heli. I'm in full agreement with the SIM suggestion. They're a great way to learn orientation issues and will pay for themselves right after the first "crash!" Models like the Blade CX are impressively stable but IMO, that also makes them not very good representatives of what you're going to feel when you transition to a more conventional design. Again, a lot of that will depend on how the conventional design is setup. Hence the advantages of finding someone with a bit of experience that's willing to help. I'm not saying the Blade CX can't be an effective stepping stone, only that a conventional design like the T-Rex, even when setup relatively docile, is not going to "feel" anything like what the Blade does. > If you can afford it, the Trex450 is a good choice. Roughly twice the > size of a micro, it's much more stable, much more durable and parts > are very inexpensive and available at most hobby shops. Can't argue with that. I've got an HDX450 (www.helidirect.com if you don't know about it and are curious) which is basically a T-Rex SE knockoff. Same helicopter from the swashplate up but different side frames and mechanics. I've been very impressed with how well both models fly for their size. They handle wind almost as well as the bigger models do and spares are dirt cheap by comparison. Having said that, I still tend to point toward a good 30 size nitro ship if you think you're serious at all about getting into this. I've lately had the opportunity to let some folks I know hover a Raptor that I setup for a friend to learn on and it was fun watching the look on their faces when they discovered that they didn't have to fight the bird all the time just to hold a hover in the area of a 10 ft circle. These guys had flown the micros and did pretty good with them but had no idea of how much better the larger birds can handle, relative to the small ones, when properly setup. I know a lot of this is dictated by finances and I've met a number of folks who simply aren't interested in anything but electric power and that's Ok. I just thought I'd put my 2 cents in here! :-) FWIW! Best of luck in whatever you decide, Steve R. >I've read a lot of "OTHER Kevin's" stuff on the web and generally agree with >his attitudes and suggestions but I'll take some minor exceptions here! ;-) How dare you!!! :) >> For an absolute newbie, a collective pitch micro is NOT going to >> affect a positive experience. Much too twitchy and unstable for [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >other. It's all in the setup and it's not difficult to do once you >understand what's going on. Perhaps I should have prefaced that with IMO. :) I've seen a LOT of very frustrated (and a couple very angry) new Blade CP owners at the local shop the day after they purchased their CPs - which were now all wadded up - evidently they're not as easy as some sales guys (and people on the 'net) say they are. My CP is pretty stable, but it took a LOT of time and some $$ to get it to that point - and I'm using a good computer radio to talk to it. My 450s are MUCH more stable than the CP and my Trex 600 is even more so than the 450s. >I'm in full agreement with the SIM suggestion. They're a great way to learn >orientation issues and will pay for themselves right after the first [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >conventional design like the T-Rex, even when setup relatively docile, is >not going to "feel" anything like what the Blade does. Nor will a Raptor 90 feel anything like a 400 class machine. I colud argue the sim isn't going to accurately prepare you for what you'll "feel" when you transition to an actual helicopter. IMO, the CX will help with orientation in the hover as will the sim, but the real ship introduces "pucker factor" into the equation... :) I'll second the "find some experienced help" suggestion. I've had to pretty much go it alone and it's a damned steep learning curve. Thankfully there are really good resources on the 'net to turn to for everything from basic setup to performance tweaks. I prefer www.helifreak.com over all the other, but that's just my preference. >> If you can afford it, the Trex450 is a good choice. Roughly twice the >> size of a micro, it's much more stable, much more durable and parts [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >who simply aren't interested in anything but electric power and that's Ok. >I just thought I'd put my 2 cents in here! :-) I was anti-electric for a LONG time and the influx of new battery technology and brushless motors has changed my mind. The majority of my models these days are electric. The performance is just too good to be ignored. Any GOOD 400 sized heli will run you about $500 to get into the air *IF* you get decent electronics to put in it. No need for a beginner to get a fully blinged out heli with hundreds of dollars in CNC parts - break the plastic stuff and replace it with the "bling" as you go. :) Check out the online retailers (or even your local shop) for combo deals. Find out what the locals are flying and what the local shop is stocking parts for before you decide on a particular model. Check out cost of replacement parts... Symmetrical wood blades for a CP/CP Pro run what? $17 for a pair? Trex450 "pro" woodies run about $13 for a set.. Mainshaft for a CP is $6 (and they bend if ya breathe on 'em too hard it seems) and you get two for $7 for the Trex450.. My last CP crash ran me almost $40... My last 450 crash was less than $30 and it took a lot more damage than the CP did. (and since most of the typical 450 crash damaged parts come in packages with multiple parts, I've got replacements on hand for the next crash.) >>I've read a lot of "OTHER Kevin's" stuff on the web and generally agree >>with >>his attitudes and suggestions but I'll take some minor exceptions here! >>;-) > > How dare you!!! :) Because I'm a stubborn, opinionated SOB, that's why! :-D Besides, I have rarely had reason to disagree with anything I've read from you, either here or over on rec.aviation.rotorcraft so I couldn't resist! ;-) > I was anti-electric for a LONG time and the influx of new battery > technology and brushless motors has changed my mind. The majority of > my models these days are electric. The performance is just too good > to be ignored. Same here. The main reason I haven't jumped totally on the electric band wagon is cost. It's not just the batteries, it's the chargers. There for a while, every time they came out with upgraded battery technology you had to buy the new charger to go with it and it was changing often enough that I wasn't willing to pony up. That seems to have settled down now for the time being. For now, I still totally enjoy my nitro ships. I can fly, fuel up, and fly again inside of a minute or two depending on how busy the flying field is. No way can you turn around that quickly if you have to recharge batteries. I admit however, that battery recharge times are coming down to something more reasonable but it's still a lot longer than it takes me to fill up my fuel tank. Also, we have a few guys around our area that get together and make bulk fuel orders from time to time. Over the years, we've gotten some "really good" per gallon pricing on glo fuel. In the past year, I got in on a couple of these, even though I really didn't need to, and have a nice stock pile of fuel on hand. I'm good for the balance of the year, easy, so I'm not particularly motivated to put $500 to $1000 in batteries and chargers although I figure that'll change somewhere along the line. Fly Safe, Steve R. >Because I'm a stubborn, opinionated SOB, that's why! :-D You won't get an argument outta me! :) >Besides, I have rarely had reason to disagree with anything I've read from >you, either here or over on rec.aviation.rotorcraft so I couldn't resist! >;-) Yet! >Same here. The main reason I haven't jumped totally on the electric band >wagon is cost. It's not just the batteries, it's the chargers. There for a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >something more reasonable but it's still a lot longer than it takes me to >fill up my fuel tank. Recharge times can run as low as 20-30 mins but we typically bring 3-4 batts to the field so we can literally fly all day without much down time at all. Agreed that the batts and associated chargers/cell balancers that make this rapid charging feasable and "safe" are expensive - as are the batteries themselves but the convenience of electric sure is nice.. I bring my 450(s - I've got two) and my Tx to work with a few batteries and fly at lunch several days a week. Toss it all back into the truck when I'm done, no muss, no fuss.. >Also, we have a few guys around our area that get together and make bulk >fuel orders from time to time. Over the years, we've gotten some "really [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >not particularly motivated to put $500 to $1000 in batteries and chargers >although I figure that'll change somewhere along the line. I do enjoy nitro stuff, but it's getting harder and harder to fly 'em around here 'cuz of the noise.. The closest "sanctioned" field is a 45 mins drive and honestly, a lot of the old farts up there don't like us heli guys (hell, I think a couple of these guys just don't like people in general!) too much. I do like the 12-15 min flight times nitro brings to the table, but the cleanup sucks... > I do like the 12-15 min flight times nitro brings to the table, but > the cleanup sucks... Aside from noise issues, I think that's the biggest advantage that electrics have. Having said that, you do need to keep certain areas lubed from time to time. The nitro ships are pretty much self lubricating (EVERYWHERE!) so it wasn't an issue before. I never realized what a pain clean up could be until I got a ship that never needs it. :-) >> I do like the 12-15 min flight times nitro brings to the table, but >> the cleanup sucks... [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >it wasn't an issue before. I never realized what a pain clean up could be >until I got a ship that never needs it. :-) Well, nitros, much like full scale helis, are always oozing some type of "goo".. Lack of visible oozing means that particular "ooz" level is low and requires topping off. :) >>> I do like the 12-15 min flight times nitro brings to the table, but >>> the cleanup sucks... [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > of "goo".. Lack of visible oozing means that particular "ooz" level > is low and requires topping off. :) Yeah, I think that's one "unique" characteristic of full size helicopters. They're one of the few machines in the world where the operator gets seriously concerned if it's "not" dripping something somewhere! :-D On Apr 2, 11:35 am, The OTHER Kevin in San Diego <skiddz "AT" adelphia "DOT" net> wrote: > >If you ner flew a heli before I suggest a small electric lake the > >Blade CP or CP Pro. You should consider the Align T-REX 450. Building [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > size of a micro, it's much more stable, much more durable and parts > are very inexpensive and available at most hobby shops. I talk from experience. I never flew any RC stuff before. I purchased a CX and flew it for 2 weeks before I got bored. I than got my T-REX. The learning cure was steep but I regret nothing... You do need deep pockets LOL |
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