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Model Forum / Radio Controlled / Helicopters / March 2007Flying Real Helicopters
There's been some complaints about this newsgroup being dead so I thought I would add a post. I'm sure someone here has some experience with real helicopters. My question is this: Surely the real thing CAN'T be anywhere near as difficult to fly as these little rc things, can they? They must be more stable, surely? Because if not, I don't think there's any way anyone is ever going to get me onto a real one, having had some experience with the rc version. You don't have the problems of orientation as you are inside the heli, and you get a lot of clues from looking at the outside world (until you are in cloud) from the heli. In most helis you can't loop or do other aerobatics so that is not on the agenda. The results of getting things wrong are somewhat more critical so the learning process needs to be thorough. There is a great deal of safety instruction and practice, and you have to take exams in navigation, meteorology, air law etc. as well as pass aflight test and complete a navigation exercise. Learning to hover is one of the earliest exercises combined with landing and taking off and initially it is most certainly not easy. Trying to control the stick, lever and pedals at the same time is not easy. You also have to learn to deal with the varying wind conditions and the effect of wind off ground obstacles. I would say I took about 7hours before I started to feel vaguely confident in the hover. After 10hours I was let loose to do three take offs and landings without the instructor. After 45hours I was passed off and gained my licence but as with everything that is only just the beginning. As with fixed wing there is a fair amount of circuit bashing to practice. Regards Peter > There's been some complaints about this newsgroup being dead so I > thought I would add a post. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Because if not, I don't think there's any way anyone is ever going to > get me onto a real one, having had some experience with the rc version. >You don't have the problems of orientation as you are inside the heli, and >you get a lot of clues from looking at the outside world (until you are in [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >beginning. As with fixed wing there is a fair amount of circuit bashing to >practice. You forgot the ridiculous costs involved in learning to fly one of these airborne eggbeaters... I find the real thing a LOT easier than the RC, but just like the RC birds, the initial part of the learning curve is pretty steep. > You forgot the ridiculous costs involved in learning to fly one of > these airborne eggbeaters... > > I find the real thing a LOT easier than the RC, but just like the RC > birds, the initial part of the learning curve is pretty steep. Amen to that. I've only got about 7 hours of flight instruction in the 1:1 scale birds. I "thought" my RC experience would hold me in good stead with regard to the full size aircraft. I was "wrong!" If it hadn't been for the instructor, I'd have wadded it up into a nice flaming ball within the first 20 seconds or so. My initial learning curve was vertical in spite of my RC helicopter experiences! :-) The only thing my modeling experience did for me in that first hour was allow me to fully understand what I was doing wrong. It didn't do much, at least initially, in helping me control the darn thing. It was very frustrating and it wasn't until I got mad enough at myself to just freeze on the controls, let the helicopter start to trend in one direction, then fix that, then work on making the "fixes" smaller and smaller until I was actually holding a reasonably stationary hover. When it was all said and done, I had the wrist of my cyclic had firmly planted on my let. I was holding the cyclic with my thumb, index, and second fingers. If I moved more than my "fingers," I was over controlling the aircraft. After that it was a very satisfying experience. I just wish I could afford to go all the way through the program. Fly Safe, Steve R. >Amen to that. I've only got about 7 hours of flight instruction in the 1:1 >scale birds. I "thought" my RC experience would hold me in good stead with >regard to the full size aircraft. I was "wrong!" If it hadn't been for the >instructor, I'd have wadded it up into a nice flaming ball within the first >20 seconds or so. My initial learning curve was vertical in spite of my RC >helicopter experiences! :-) Yep. RC does ZIP to prepare you for the real thing. >The only thing my modeling experience did for me in that first hour was >allow me to fully understand what I was doing wrong. It didn't do much, at [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >was a very satisfying experience. I just wish I could afford to go all the >way through the program. Even though I did, I still wish I could afford it. :) I just got back from Heli Expo down in Florida and gave dozens of demo "flights" in our simulator... Even after you tell people the cyclic will barely move through the entire flight, they still "churn butter" with it... I fly with my right wrist on my leg and use just my thumb and forefinger for most of the cyclic work. It's more cyclic pressure than actually moving it.. Hovering isn't even a thought for me anymore. It just kinda happens... Wish I had that problem with the models. hehehe >RC does ZIP to prepare you for the real thing. Just out of curiosity, what is the difference exactly? Is it that the controls are completely different or is it just a matter of being such a different feel? >>RC does ZIP to prepare you for the real thing. > >Just out of curiosity, what is the difference exactly? Is it that the >controls are completely different or is it just a matter of being such >a different feel? RC doesn't provide any tactile feedback at all.. All control inputs are dependent on visual cues only. The controls are similar but in RC, the "pedal" control is masked by the gyro's control of the tail rotor. Being IN the full scale heli, you get plenty of feedback while controlling the machine. IN addition, you don't have a gyro helping with T/R control. All of that control is in your feet. Do you think actually driving a car would be the same as driving an RC car?? I don't know anything about real helicopters, I'm just trying to get an idea of how the controls are laid out. So you control the tail rotor with your feet? How does this work, are there two pedals and you push the left one with your left foot if you want to go left, and push the right one if you want to go right? Can you also at that time "step on the gas" to control the speed of the tail rotor? I gather the cylclic is controlled by the right hand, so is the throttle controlled by the left? So that both arms and both legs are occupied? I'm just guessing here so tell me where I've messed up. >I don't know anything about real helicopters, I'm just trying to get >an idea of how the controls are laid out. So you control the tail [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >throttle controlled by the left? So that both arms and both legs are >occupied? I'm just guessing here so tell me where I've messed up. Control layout is as follows: Left hand controls the collective. Collective is your primary altitude control. Pull up on the collective, you add more pitch to the blades and you climb. Depending on the heli, there is a throttle control on the end of the collective. Some helis have the throttle on separate controls on an overhead panel or on the floor. Most helis don't require a lot of throttle manipulation since throttle is electronically controlled. In addition, there is a mechanical device called a correlator that adds power as you pull more pitch with the collective. The correlator does a pretty good job for the most part, but occasionally you'll need to work the throttle manually. Right hand is the cyclic. Basic direction control. Also controls pitch and roll when in forward flight. Pitch for airpspeed, collective for altitude (just like the models) Anti-torque pedals are on the floor, one for each foot. Primary heading control in hover and slow speed flight, used to keep coordinated in forward flight.. Step on the left pedal, nose goes left, step on the right, nose goes right. Unlike our models, tail control is all on the pilot since we don't have a gyro helping us out. Now, having said that, there are some full scale helis with lots of automation.. I met a guy last week who flies Seahawks for the Coast Guard. He said he can leave his feet on the floor since the yaw augmentation system in the 'hawk is so good... Most US built helis require left pedal input at pickup and high power settings. European helis typically require opposite pedal inputs. This is due to the direction the main rotors turn. So, quick recap. Collective/throttle - left hand Cyclic - right hand Pedals - feet. >> I don't know anything about real helicopters, I'm just trying to get >> an idea of how the controls are laid out. So you control the tail [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > Cyclic - right hand > Pedals - feet. do you need to push forward on the stick all the time you are going forward or is there some sort of trim? >do you need to push forward on the stick all the time you are going >forward or is there some sort of trim? All the ships I've flown have either an electric trim or some sort of force reduction device you can set once you're in cruise flight. > I'm sure someone here has some experience with real helicopters. My > question is this: > Surely the real thing CAN'T be anywhere near as difficult to fly as > these little rc things, can they? I am a confirmed "Rotorhead" I can assure you that in theory an RC Helicopter and a Full Sized Chopper are similiar, BUT... I can state in confidence that there is NO similarity in flying the two. One can fairly quickly get fairly skilled at flying an RC Helicopter in a few months. It took me about a year, to progress to a satisfactorly level with my Century Swift. The actual flight time probably in that year was surely not over 50 hours of stick time. Once I learned to hover the rest came fairly easy. I have flown most of the DOD inventory except for the Cobra and the Apache..(REALLY NASTY SCARY UNSTABLE THINGS) Full sized rotor craft are inherently dangerous, and they are constantly trying to kill you from the first spoolup until you egress. I will say some Pilots are very GOOD, and are fearless. I am neither!!! I have flown since the 70's and I still never fly with a full bladder because to be honest the things TERRIFY ME! I think eventually something like the V-22 Osprey will eventually take over where helicopters rule now. Anything that Flies is Dangerous, a rotorcraft more so. I do enjoy flying my Swift, but I also do tend to bang it on the ground with spectacular results! Hi to the world, I fly RC heli's and planes. I've never flown a full-size plane but had the opp to fly an Extra 330L (twin seater) pure aerobatic plane. The G forces were quite hard to come to terms with - -ve G you would literally scream so you didn't black out and +ve you clenched you legs so you didn't black out. I couldn't believe the Red Bull Air Race guys were pulling 11G - That crazy. But as far as flying it, it was sweet. The biggest lesson was that the full size didn't have the power to weight an RC plane has, but apart from that I was pulling 4 point rolls, Hanno spins, you name it. If I ever get the cash - I'm buying one! all the best JD | I am a confirmed "Rotorhead" I can assure you that in theory an RC | Helicopter and a Full Sized Chopper are similiar, BUT... I can state | in confidence that there is NO similarity in flying the two. One | can fairly quickly get fairly skilled at flying an RC Helicopter in | a few months. ... and how many did you crash? | It took me about a year, to progress to a satisfactorly level | with my Century Swift. ... and how many of those did you crash? :) | Full sized rotor craft are inherently dangerous, and they are constantly | trying to kill you from the first spoolup until you egress. But I thought you said full-scale helicopters were *different* than R/C helicopters. This is exactly like R/C helicopters! :)  SignatureDoug McLaren, dougmc@frenzied.us Which is worse: Ignorance or Apathy? Who knows? Who cares? > | I am a confirmed "Rotorhead" I can assure you that in theory an RC > | Helicopter and a Full Sized Chopper are similiar, BUT... I can state [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > But I thought you said full-scale helicopters were *different* than > R/C helicopters. This is exactly like R/C helicopters! :) Now thats funny... TRUE, but funny LOL. > -- > Doug McLaren, dougmc@frenzied.us > Which is worse: Ignorance or Apathy? Who knows? Who cares? |
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