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Model Forum / Radio Controlled / Helicopters / August 2007



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Throttle/pitch mixing help

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Dad - 05 Aug 2007 23:48 GMT
HI
I'm just bought a T-Rex 450SE V2 with a 6EXH TX. I'm new to this hobby
which I'm finding extremely challenging! Anyway a couple of buddies of
mine bought the king 2 to learn on. Well it seems that to get the heli
off the ground they had to switch to idle up and use the "throttle" left
stick to adjust pitch for take off.

This worried me for a newbie and proved rightly because the heli flipped
over and because they were not quick enough to flick idle off - the
blades hit the deck, stalled the motor and burnt out the ESC, motor and
on one of them the gyro (he thinks). This happened on both models.  

What I want to do is use the throttle to behave like a fixed pitch heli
i.e. as I increase speed the pitch increases to a point where it starts
to hover (1500 rpm?)- Gently.  If i get into trouble i can then shut off
the throttle, which I'm used too. I just want to take it easy to start
off before I play with the idle up.
So can the throttle pitch be mixed this way? Can anyone explain how this
is done using the Futaba 6EXH?
Regards
Martin

Oh as a point of interest, is there a safety device or method that can
protect the ESC, motor etc against this devastating motor
stalls/crashes?
Bob Holdford - 06 Aug 2007 00:23 GMT
> HI
> I'm just bought a T-Rex 450SE V2 with a 6EXH TX. I'm new to this hobby
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> protect the ESC, motor etc against this devastating motor
> stalls/crashes?

Not sure if this can be done or not.  Though, sounds to me as if a good sim
would come in handy.

Bob
GAZLAZ - 06 Aug 2007 08:06 GMT
Download the manual and use the throttle curves shown, 1=0, 2=40%, 3=65%,
4=85%, 5=100%.  1 is 0 degrees pitch(blades).3 is +5 to +6 degrees and 5 is
+9 to +11 degrees for general hovering/ learning to fly.

d" <Mystical@Nospam.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.212064155c7f3afa989680@news.cable.ntlworld.com...
> HI
> I'm just bought a T-Rex 450SE V2 with a 6EXH TX. I'm new to this hobby
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> protect the ESC, motor etc against this devastating motor
> stalls/crashes?
GAZLAZ - 06 Aug 2007 08:29 GMT
Also www.helifreak.com  has build videos and lots of general help and
information, www.runryder.com is another good source of info, aswell as this
group!
have fun!
The OTHER Kevin in San Diego - 07 Aug 2007 00:43 GMT
>HI
>I'm just bought a T-Rex 450SE V2 with a 6EXH TX. I'm new to this hobby
>which I'm finding extremely challenging! Anyway a couple of buddies of
>mine bought the king 2 to learn on. Well it seems that to get the heli
>off the ground they had to switch to idle up and use the "throttle" left
>stick to adjust pitch for take off.

Using the left stick is pretty typical for adding power.  This is part
of the Mode 2 configuration.  Some folks fly Mode 1 which puts
throttle on the right stick.  A collective pitch heli changes pitch of
the blades as the stick is moved up and down.  The radio mixes in
throttle as required to keep the headspeed from degrading or
increasing.  (Well, in theory, but unless you're using a governor,
you've got to set the amount of mix using the pitch and throttle
curves in the radio)

>This worried me for a newbie and proved rightly because the heli flipped
>over and because they were not quick enough to flick idle off - the
>blades hit the deck, stalled the motor and burnt out the ESC, motor and
>on one of them the gyro (he thinks). This happened on both models.  

Don't blame the model for lack of skill of the pilots.  :)  

>What I want to do is use the throttle to behave like a fixed pitch heli
>i.e. as I increase speed the pitch increases to a point where it starts
>to hover (1500 rpm?)- Gently.

That 450V2 isn't even going to get airborne at 1500 RPM.  You'll want
to get the head to around 2400 at a minimum.  Anything lower and the
tail won't have enough authority and it'll just spin on you.   I run
my V2 at about 3000 RPM.  Anyways, what you can do is easy - but I
don't see the point.

> If i get into trouble i can then shut off
>the throttle, which I'm used too. I just want to take it easy to start
>off before I play with the idle up.

Slamming the throttle closed whan you have an "oh sh.t" moment is
gonna drive the heli into the ground.  Better to take it VERY slow and
learn to hover properly so you don't develop bad habits right off the
bat.  Might I suggest Radd's School Of Rotary Flight.  Google and ye
shall be enlightened and educated.

I *STRONGLY*  (did I say STRONGLY??) suggest you find some experienced
help to get the heli set up properly, or at a **MINIMUM** view the
videos at helifreak.com that detail setting up a 450SE.

http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=11373

You'll need to register to view 'em, but it's well worth it due to the
abundance of help and very experienced heli people there.

That's an awfully expensive "toy" to wad up due to poor setup.  Not to
mention it WILL draw blood (or worse) if it hits you.  Again, watch
the videos.  Get the heli set up as perfectly as you can.  Take your
time learning to hover.  The V2 flies extremely well, but how well is
dependent on how well the setup is done.

>So can the throttle pitch be mixed this way? Can anyone explain how this
>is done using the Futaba 6EXH?

I'm not familar with the 6EXH, but CCPM setup is CCPM setup.  I'll
leave it to you to pore over the manual and figure it out.

Basically, you need to set up a throttle and pitch curve for each
flight mode (normal, idleup etc..)  This will deal with normal mode
only.

To do what you want, you'd set the pitch for normal mode to +4/5
degrees.  Disconnect your motor 1st or it'll slap the sh.t outta you
and jack up your heli . Power up the Tx and the heli (Transmitter is
ALWAYS 1st on and last off!!!!)  Get into the Swash menu and dial in
whatever number you need in the PITCH function to get a measured +4/5
degrees with the throttle and all trims centered and set all curve
points to that number.  Now the pitch won't change at all regardless
of where the throttle is.

Now, find the throttle curve for normal mode and set the 1st point to
0 and the top point to 100.  Equally space the other points so you get
a linear throttle curve (i.e if it's a 5 point curve, set the points
to 0, 25, 50, 75, 100)

There.  You've effectively turned a really nicely flying heli into a
crappy flying heli.  :)

If you want to do it up properly, forget about making it a "fixed
pitch" heli.  Watch the videos I linked you to above.  Watch them all.
Watch 'em again.  Watch 'em until you understand what's being taught.
When you understand, set up your heli.  (Hell, set it up as you watch
- that's what the Pause button is for!)

>Oh as a point of interest, is there a safety device or method that can
>protect the ESC, motor etc against this devastating motor
>stalls/crashes?

It's called a Throttle Hold switch and is activated with a quick
finger activation.  

Lastly, safety is paramount.  If you hit someone or something with
that heli, you are personally liable.  Check out the pics in the
Helifreak Safety Forum if you want to see what damage these things can
cause.  Don't fly indoors.  Don't fly near people.  Find a nice
secluded area that's large enough to not worry about hitting
something.

Unfortunately, the spokesperson for how NOT to act safely with a heli
pulled all his videos from Helifreak and youtube or I'd point ya to
'em so you could see what a complete a.s does with a potentially
lethal "toy".
Dad - 08 Aug 2007 00:31 GMT
> HI
> I'm just bought a T-Rex 450SE V2 with a 6EXH TX. I'm new to this hobby
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> protect the ESC, motor etc against this devastating motor
> stalls/crashes?

Many thanks for the info, very comprehensive and good advise.  The 450
was delivered RTF and setup by an expert, but I will however be studying
the manual and vids you pointed out - thoroughly!
One thing I am aware of, this heli is not a toy and will not be used as
such.  I have Reflex and am working slowly through Radds guide.  

I am not planning on taking this bird up for some time until i am
confident about hovering. So far it is hard going - I'm brilliant at
making the heli behave like a pendulum!

Will I ever get this to stop? What's the technique to make it stay put!!
It's like balancing a marble on a sheet of glass!  I tend to agree with
the experts, flying a heli takes tremendous amounts of patience and
skill:)

Anyway,  many thank for the info
Regards
Martin
Chuck - 08 Aug 2007 08:48 GMT
They are called fuses, and you can usually get them in auto parts stores.
I don't know what current that your motor and  ESC draw, so I cannot
recommend a fuse.
The fuse should be placed in series with the positive ESC  lead.
Assuming a brushless ESC it will need to be on the input side of the ESC,
unless the ESC has some sort of open motor lead detection.
The drawback is that if the fuse is too small, or opens while the helio is
in the air, and the brushless ESC is providing 5vdc to the receiver, There
is a loss of control.
A brushed ESC can have the fuse on the positive motor lead, and the receiver
and servos continue to be controllable if the fuse opens.

"Oh as a point of interest, is there a safety device or method that can
protect the ESC, motor etc against this devastating motor
stalls/crashes?"

> > HI
> > I'm just bought a T-Rex 450SE V2 with a 6EXH TX. I'm new to this hobby
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> Regards
> Martin
The OTHER Kevin in San Diego - 08 Aug 2007 18:36 GMT
>Many thanks for the info, very comprehensive and good advise.  The 450
>was delivered RTF and setup by an expert, but I will however be studying
>the manual and vids you pointed out - thoroughly!
>One thing I am aware of, this heli is not a toy and will not be used as
>such.  I have Reflex and am working slowly through Radds guide.  

Define "expert"  :)  Like I said, it's a good idea to poke around the
various online forums for info.  There are a LOT of people out there
that started the same way you are.

>I am not planning on taking this bird up for some time until i am
>confident about hovering. So far it is hard going - I'm brilliant at
>making the heli behave like a pendulum!

I still get into that mode sometimes myself.

>Will I ever get this to stop? What's the technique to make it stay put!!
>It's like balancing a marble on a sheet of glass!  I tend to agree with
>the experts, flying a heli takes tremendous amounts of patience and
>skill:)

Small, smooth movements on the controls.  Heli's are about "touch" and
"anticipation".  I fly full scale helis as well as models and the
"anticipation" is the same for either.

Basically, what you're experiencing is pilot induced occillation (PIO)
and YOU are doing it.  It's a simple premise to get the heli "stable",
but it's going to take practice.

Let's say you're in a hover..  The heli starts to move left, so you
apply some right cyclic to compensate.  The heli stops it's left
movement and begins to move right so you add left cyclic.  You've just
entered PIO and it'll get worse the more this cycle is followed.

To "fix" this, you need to modify the way you're applying control
inputs.

Again, you're in a hover.  The heli starts to move left so you apply
right cyclic to stop this movement.  The trick is to remove that
corrective input JUST before the heli stops moving to the left.
That's the "anticipation" part.  Conversely, if the heli starts moving
right, you apply left cyclic and JUST before the heli stops moving
right, remove the left cyclic input.  It's the same regardless of
whether it's left/right or forward/backward movement.  Hope that makes
sense.

One thing you may have realized already..  You will ALWAYS be moving a
stick when hovering.  You'll have to constantly make SMALL corrections
to maintain a stable hover.  It'll come, but it'll take practice and
one day you won't even think about what you're doing, it'll just
"click" and you'll be hovering.  Once you get to that point, you'll
work on nose-in hovering and REALLY screw with your head 'cuz
everything is reversed at that point.  :)

In the mean time, keep working with the sim as it'll help you develop
muscle memory.  Nothing will replace actually burning electrons, but
the sim does help.

One last thing.  I hope you've got a good job.  This is a seriously
addictive hobby..  I was out of it for about 12 years and got back
into it a couple years ago.  I now have 7 (yes, SEVEN) helis and am
looking to buy another one before year's end.  :)

Good luck!
NTL - 31 Aug 2007 00:21 GMT
Many thanks for the input, I actually got the heli to hover the other
day and kept it in a reasonably small area, in fact i was concentrating
so hard that my hand pushed the throttle stick up, instead of down! I
have no idea whay made my "brain made my had jerk this way. Anyway I hit
the wall and the blades bust. Carbon 3K as well!.

I replaced the 450SE V2 main shaft and blades (balanced) but i feel that
there is a still a very slight vibration now in the model.  I cannot
think what elses might have been damaged...any thoughts?
Regards
Martin

> >Many thanks for the info, very comprehensive and good advise.  The 450
> >was delivered RTF and setup by an expert, but I will however be studying
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
>
> One thing you may have realized already..  You will ALWAYS be moving a
The OTHER Kevin in San Diego - 31 Aug 2007 00:50 GMT
>Many thanks for the input, I actually got the heli to hover the other
>day and kept it in a reasonably small area, in fact i was concentrating
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>Regards
>Martin

I'd be willing to Beav's Zed that the feathering spindle is bent..
Easy way to check.  Pull one blade off.  Extend the other one fully.
Stick your trusty hex driver into the retainer bolt and turn it.
Watch the tip of the other blade.  If it moves in circles, the
feathering spindle is bent.  

Don't forget to lube the dampers (or replace 'em if they're dodgey)
when ya put the new one back in.  Also, make sure you loctite the
retainer bolts (and don't foul the bearings with the stuff) as well.

Good luck.
 
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