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Model Forum / Radio Controlled / Helicopters / September 2007



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PPM vs. PCM in Electric Helis

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Jack - 24 Aug 2007 21:51 GMT
While understanding the functional differences between the two different
types of modulation, is it necessary to use a PCM rcvr. with higher powered
electric helis, or is the noise generation of such a type that a PPM rcvr.
will function satisfactorily?

Thanks,

Jack
The OTHER Kevin in San Diego - 27 Aug 2007 21:19 GMT
>While understanding the functional differences between the two different
>types of modulation, is it necessary to use a PCM rcvr. with higher powered
>electric helis, or is the noise generation of such a type that a PPM rcvr.
>will function satisfactorily?

As long as you take care to keep the high voltage stuff (motor/ESC
wiring) away from the radio stuff, either should be ok.  I've not had
a glitch with any of my helis on 72MHz, but have had several issues
with this new 2.4G stuff..
Jack - 27 Aug 2007 23:12 GMT
Thanks again Kevin, I already have a spare PPM receiver and just wanted to
save a few bucks.

Jack

>>While understanding the functional differences between the two different
>>types of modulation, is it necessary to use a PCM rcvr. with higher
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> a glitch with any of my helis on 72MHz, but have had several issues
> with this new 2.4G stuff..
The OTHER Kevin in San Diego - 28 Aug 2007 19:18 GMT
>Thanks again Kevin, I already have a spare PPM receiver and just wanted to
>save a few bucks.

The terms "save a few bucks" and "Radio Controlled Helicopters" are
mutually exclusive.  :)
Jack - 30 Aug 2007 23:17 GMT
Twas a rather silly thing to say, wasn't it? It usually goes hand in hand
with, " I shoulda spent the extra money and got what I needed in the first
place" :-)

>>Thanks again Kevin, I already have a spare PPM receiver and just wanted to
>>save a few bucks.
>
> The terms "save a few bucks" and "Radio Controlled Helicopters" are
> mutually exclusive.  :)
dingo - 12 Sep 2007 21:09 GMT
Both are useless when there is an ugly glicht.
PCM has as mutch glitch as ppm receiver.  It just hide it betther.  There is
no such failsave setting that keeps youre heli nice stable and up.
Where there is not glitch they both work :)

thats my opinion

> While understanding the functional differences between the two different
> types of modulation, is it necessary to use a PCM rcvr. with higher
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Jack
Steve R - 13 Sep 2007 05:14 GMT
There have been many, many, conversations/arguments through the years about
the pros and cons of PCM vs PPM.  Dingo is right that PCM is better at
covering up such problems.  Many think the problem should be identified and
corrected instead of relying on the technology to cover it up.  That's all
well and good but I've seen a number of instances through the years where
perfectly good models were lost because of interference problems with PPM
system that couldn't be identified in time.

OK, so PCM just covers it up and doesn't correct the interference.  If
you're not having any control issues, who cares?  I've been flying PCM
systems since the first Futaba 512 PCM 8's came out in the mid 80's and I've
had very few interference issues.  I did have one instance with my
helicopter locked out on me and crashed.  It was determined pretty quickly
that another guy on the field turned on his transmitter, on my frequency,
but didn't have the frequency pin.  "I" had it!  I've also had a time when
the system locked out for no discernable reason.  To this day, I don't know
what caused the problem.  It could have been a legitimate interference
problem like the first example or I could have simply had a receiver
failure.  I'll never know.  BTW, these two examples happened over a 20 year
period!  I don't think I can complain about that!  :-)

As for the fail safe on PCM not saving the model in the event of a lock out,
it's true that you shouldn't count on that happening.  However, I've had two
instances where it worked for me.  The first was a situation where I had a
main shaft bearing going bad and it was making enough RF noise to trigger a
PCM lock-out.  Fortunately, this was happening right about the time the
model was lifting off the ground.  I fail safe everything.  Cyclic and tail
controls stay neutral, throttle goes to idle, and collective goes to a +1.5
to 2 degrees.  As a result, the engine simply cut to idle and the model set
back down as 2 degrees isn't enough to maintain flight.  Granted this is an
unusual situation but it saved them model and gave me a chance to figure out
what was wrong.

The second situation involved a guy I was teaching to fly and we were buddy
boxing his Stinger 30.  We fail safed his system like I describe above.  He
was doing so good that I wasn't having to do anything but stand there and
hold the trainer switch.   I'd told him he didn't need me anymore but that's
another story.  Anyway,  we flew for right at 10 minutes.  His model was in
a stable, stationary hover when all of the sudden, it just descended
straight down and landed.  We didn't have a clue as to why that happened
until we looked down at my transmitter.  It was totally shut down.  I didn't
understand what had happened as we'd gotten no low battery warning buzzer
until I realized that I hadn't moved the sticks on the master radio for
quite some time and the transmitters own time out timer had turned the
system off.  I had no idea that could happen.  Needless to say, that timer
got inhibited right then and there.  As for the model, it sat there on the
ground, happily idling away until we cycled the transmitter, regained
control, and shut everything down.  Again, it was a freak situation but the
fail safe actually saved the model.  Even if he'd been flying around and a
crash would have been inevitable, just idling the engine and reducing
collective to a point that won't support flight but still cause the rotor to
tend to slow down, it probably would have helped to minimize the damage.

FWIW  :-)

Fly Safe,
Steve R.

> Both are useless when there is an ugly glicht.
> PCM has as mutch glitch as ppm receiver.  It just hide it betther.  There
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>>
>> Jack
The OTHER Kevin in San Diego - 13 Sep 2007 16:54 GMT
>There have been many, many, conversations/arguments through the years about
>the pros and cons of PCM vs PPM.  Dingo is right that PCM is better at
>covering up such problems.  Many think the problem should be identified and
>corrected instead of relying on the technology to cover it up.

I'm beginning to get REALLY irritated with people who think the new
2.4GHz systems are the solution to all glitching problems.  It seems
every time someone mentions a glitching problem, the answer is "Get a
DX7!"  IMO, the solution is proper electronics installation, not
technology.

>That's all
>well and good but I've seen a number of instances through the years where
>perfectly good models were lost because of interference problems with PPM
>system that couldn't be identified in time.

I run PCM on all my helis (except for my Blade CP) and a mix of PCM
and PPM on my planks.  I've had *ZERO* noticable glitches with any of
these setups, but I take great pains to route wiring to try and
minimize any chances of glitching.  

>OK, so PCM just covers it up and doesn't correct the interference.  If
>you're not having any control issues, who cares?  I've been flying PCM
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>failure.  I'll never know.  BTW, these two examples happened over a 20 year
>period!  I don't think I can complain about that!  :-)

I'd be willing to bet you don't just chuck the electronics in the
model, slap on a few  zip ties to keep the wires away from the moving
parts and go fly and as such, you're probably doing much like I do to
minimize the possibility of interference.

>As for the fail safe on PCM not saving the model in the event of a lock out,
>it's true that you shouldn't count on that happening.  However, I've had two
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>unusual situation but it saved them model and gave me a chance to figure out
>what was wrong.

I know a LOT of people who don't fail safe.  Fail safe has saved my
Trex450SEV2 twice now - on a DX7 setup!  Twice I've lost all
communication with the model as it's spooling up and both times the
model went to 0 throttle and 0 pitch.   I disassembled and reassembled
the heli after the 1st issue and the 1st time I tried spooling up
after the rebuild, I lost communications. (Horizon had the gear for a
couple weeks and couldn't find anything wrong.)

This very same heli, on a PCM setup with my Futaba 9C flew dozens of
times without an issue until the 2.4Ghz setup was installed.  I don't
fly this bird in any way but hovering because I don't trust the radio
gear.  

Again, IMO, throwing different technology at it isn't the solution.  I
DO like the 2.4GHz idea as frequency issues will no longer be an
issue, but regardless of the setup, do what you can with your
installation to minimize the potential for glitching.

>The second situation involved a guy I was teaching to fly and we were buddy
>boxing his Stinger 30.  We fail safed his system like I describe above.  He
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>collective to a point that won't support flight but still cause the rotor to
>tend to slow down, it probably would have helped to minimize the damage.

I never even considered the auto-off feature when buddy boxing.  I'm
going to file that one away for future reference...
Steve R - 20 Sep 2007 23:47 GMT
>>There have been many, many, conversations/arguments through the years
>>about
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> I never even considered the auto-off feature when buddy boxing.  I'm
> going to file that one away for future reference...

Obviously, I never thought about it either.  Apparently, it only looks at
the sticks on the instructors radio and doesn't see the control movements
made by the student radio.  In fact, it had been so long since I'd even
looked at the feature I'd forgotten it was there.  It took a while to figure
out exactly what had happened.  It hadn't been an issue before because I was
reflexively moving my sticks in response to what he was doing with the model
so the shut off timer never became an issue.  I'd been with this student
long enough to get comfortable with what he was likely to do so I wasn't
following his controls any more and that's when we got in trouble.  Live and
learn!

Actually, I discovered that it's better to "not" try to "fly" the model
while the student has control.  The scenario is, he's flying along, I'd be
following him with my controls.  He'd finally get in trouble and I'd be
holding things hard over to correct except that I hadn't taken control of
the model yet by releasing the trainer switch.  When I finally did release
the trainer switch, the model would jump in the direction of my control
inputs and then it would be a PIO dance until I caught up with myself on the
controls.  All of this, the student loosing control to my taking control,
happens within the space of seconds.  Anyway, I found that if I simply put
the throttle/collective to a spot sure to maintain altitude (assuming the
model is level) and leave everything else at a neutral position, when he
does screw up, I release the trainer switch and all  flight controls go
neutral.  The model then quits rolling and/or pitching and/or yawing and
momentarily stabilizes at whatever attitude it's in when the trainer switch
is released.  I can then apply the necessary corrective inputs to get it
back right and the process goes "much" more smoothly than when I tried to
"fly" it with the student.

Just a little trick that works for me in case anyone's interested.  Buddy
boxing an up and coming helicopter pilot is a relatively rare thing in my
experience.  I've had a great time doing it and have learned a lot in the
process.

FWIW!  :-)

Fly Safe,
Steve R.
The OTHER Kevin in San Diego - 21 Sep 2007 18:19 GMT
>Obviously, I never thought about it either.  Apparently, it only looks at
>the sticks on the instructors radio and doesn't see the control movements
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>following his controls any more and that's when we got in trouble.  Live and
>learn!

I wonder if all manufacturers rigs are set up like that..  I'll have
to look at the manual for my 9C and my DX7 (hate that POS btw) and
check it out.
Steve R - 21 Sep 2007 23:45 GMT
>>Obviously, I never thought about it either.  Apparently, it only looks at
>>the sticks on the instructors radio and doesn't see the control movements
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> to look at the manual for my 9C and my DX7 (hate that POS btw) and
> check it out.

I have no experience with other manufacturers so I can't say.  I would
expect that my experience with the 9Z in this situation would be common to
all Futaba systems but I'd verify it with the 9C (or any other Futaba radio
for that matter) before finding out the hard way.

What is it that you don't like about the DX7?  Most folks I've talked to
that have them, can't say enough good about them.  People that are used to
the upper level Futaba and JR systems generally miss the programming
features that those radios offer and the DX7 doesn't but for the most part,
they seem very happy with the radio.

Just curious.  :-)
The OTHER Kevin in San Diego - 24 Sep 2007 16:58 GMT
>I have no experience with other manufacturers so I can't say.  I would
>expect that my experience with the 9Z in this situation would be common to
>all Futaba systems but I'd verify it with the 9C (or any other Futaba radio
>for that matter) before finding out the hard way.

I was working on the Raptor last night and several times I had the
radio on, but untouched for at least 15 mins and it never shut off...
I didn't even think to check for a shutoff timer while I was fiddling.

>What is it that you don't like about the DX7?  Most folks I've talked to
>that have them, can't say enough good about them.  People that are used to
>the upper level Futaba and JR systems generally miss the programming
>features that those radios offer and the DX7 doesn't but for the most part,
>they seem very happy with the radio.

The feel of the Tx is cheesy.  It feels like the Interlink controller
that comes with Real Flight.  

The balance of the thing is horrendous if you use a neck strap.

I've had a few runaways with this thing and just don't trust it.
Horizon gave it (and the Rx) a clean bill of health.  Tried another Rx
and lost comms with the heli again.  It's not the Rx reset issue
becasue once I lose comms, it's 30-60 seconds before I get it back.

I've never had an issue with any of my 72MHz setups
 
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