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Model Forum / Radio Controlled / Helicopters / November 2007Starter Question
Hi Folks, I have just bought a raptor 90 and (with 90 engine). So far, I have broken 3 starters with it. The shop keeps selling me duds. The first one could not power a toothbrush, the second one, due to a loose connection on the brush, blew up, and the replacement (which I had to pay for) has stripped the shaft / gear key. I swapped the gearbox from the old one and it also stripped in a few minutes! As for use, the longest run it has had could not be more than 10 seconds. It's not like I am holding it continuously. Small bursts is all. I might add that this is a brand new engine and heli built by me (my first build). Yes, the engine spins freely when the glow plug is removed. No, it is not flooding. I have managed to get it to idle for a few minutes but still setting up the engine. Hence the frequent demands on the starter. However, surely the starters should last more than 10-20 starts. Once the engine is warm, it takes have a second spin to get it running. Cold is a bit more difficult. Should I be breaking them? Should they last longer? Can anyone recommend a good starter? A recommendation from someone who is >75 and has owned the starter from when he was 12 would do :) Thanks! Cheers, Crispin > Hi Folks, > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > (which I had to pay for) has stripped the shaft / gear key. I swapped > the gearbox from the old one and it also stripped in a few minutes! > Should I be breaking them? Should they last longer? Can anyone > recommend a good starter? A recommendation from someone who is >75 and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Cheers, > Crispin And which starter do you have that keeps breaking? From the mention of gerbox it sounds like you have been sold one of those all-in one units powered by a 7.2v battery pack? It could be that you have been sold somethign completely inappropriate for that size engine, On the other hand it could be that there is a problem with the engine or you just need to learn to start it with a loose glow plug until you have got it run in a bit more. Chris Hi Crispin, Unfortunately, most regular, strip mall located, hobby stores don't know much about the requirements for starting a 90 sized helicopter. Having said that, most standard and so called, heavy duty starters should last a LOT longer than what you're getting. It's just that they're usually marginal on the torque required to spin over a 90 size heli engine. The best starter our there, IMHO, is the Sullivan Dynatron. Check this link: http://www.ronlund.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=heli&Product _Code=SUL603 I'd ditch the standard cup and rubber cone (designed for airplanes) and get something like the following: http://www.ronlund.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=heli&Product _Code=VAR64_50 I know it's expensive as H*** but I've had mine for years now (got it when it was somewhat less expensive) and have never had any problems with it. They do offer other versions that are a bit less expensive so go with whatever your budget can stand. The half with the crimp bolt on it stays on the starters output shaft and the other side will unscrew to make storage easier. The removable part also incorporates a one-way bearing so that the engine can easily outrun the starter when it lights off so the starter itself isn't holding the engine back when it does try to start. Works like a charm. You'll also need an adaptor for the helicopter itself that looks like this: http://www.ronlund.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=heli&Product _Code=ACEPV0026 They make this to fit different diameter start shafts so you'll need to figure out which one you need but the extension listed in the second link requires a 6mm adaptor on the model. Hope this helps! Good luck & Fly Safe, Steve R. > Hi Folks, > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Cheers, > Crispin Hi guys, Thanks for the info. The first starter I got was the normal cheapy one: http://www.alshobbies.com/shop/lookupstock.php?pc=6613&Desc=starter&PHPSESSID=09 cf503c435178418f860ea29c9ba6d8 It could spin the engine easily until you reached compression. So, less than one revolution before it stalled :) With or without loose glow plug. The second one, of which I have broken two, is this: http://www.alshobbies.com/shop/lookupstock.php?pc=6696&Desc=starter&PHPSESSID=09 cf503c435178418f860ea29c9ba6d8 The first one of them had a loose connection and melted the wire. According to me, who studied and works in electronics, the obvious loose connection in the motor was the cause of the terminal overheating and melting the surrounding connection. According to the shop keeper, only good connections get hot, bad connections stay cold. I must have missed that day in school. Anyway... He replaced it and met me half way on the cost. As I did not have any cash on me, I said I would pay later. As I said above, the thing broke. I swapped the gearbox for the other one and that to broke. As these really that bad? They are expensive enough. ($ to £ is about 2.1). As for paying a premium for one - if it lasts more than a day I would be happy to. I'll look into the one mentioned above and try find a local one. Thanks, Cheers Hi Crispin, Hi guys, >Thanks for the info. > >The first starter I got was the normal cheapy one: http://www.alshobbies.com/shop/lookupstock.php?pc=6613&Desc=starter&PHPSESSID=09 cf503c435178418f860ea29c9ba6d8 >It could spin the engine easily until you reached compression. So, >less than one revolution before it stalled :) With or without loose >glow plug. Oh, so you mean it would spin the engine over 180 degrees! ;-) That looks like a standard type starter that's sold all over the world. Anyway, unless everything is right on the money, it's not going to have the power turn over a 90 sized engine in a helicopter. >The second one, of which I have broken two, is this: http://www.alshobbies.com/shop/lookupstock.php?pc=6696&Desc=starter&PHPSESSID=09 cf503c435178418f860ea29c9ba6d8 Personally, I've never seen any of those geared types last more than a week or two while being used on a helicopter. I'm met people through the years that like them but they are a definite minority. >The first one of them had a loose connection and melted the wire. >According to me, who studied and works in electronics, the obvious >loose connection in the motor was the cause of the terminal >overheating and melting the surrounding connection. According to the >shop keeper, only good connections get hot, bad connections stay cold. >I must have missed that day in school. Which is "exactly" why I don't take advise from the local hobby dealer unless I really know them on a given subject. In my part of the world, the local shops simply don't deal in helicopters enough to know much about them. I don't mean that as any kind of insult. Helicopters are expensive for hobby shops, especially the smaller ones, to get into and stock so their experience with them is generally limited. >As for paying a premium for one - if it lasts more than a day I would >be happy to. > >I'll look into the one mentioned above and try find a local one. I'd think they would be able to get one if they don't stock it. The Sullivan brand is common over here but I don't know if it is on your side of the pond. The links I posted are from a place about 4 hours south of me and they support helicopters almost exclusively. They "know" their stuff and have a large inventory. They're also close enough that standard ground shippments arrive within 24 hours. Getting next day shipping at ground prices is always a good thing! :-) As a last resort, and I understand your desire to keep the business local, the place I linked you to can and will ship overseas. >Thanks, > >Cheers Your welcome. Let us know how it all works out! Fly Safe, Steve R. I'll second (third and fourth) the Dynatron. Pretty pricey but almost enough grunt to start a semi on 22v (I use a 6S LiPo pack on mine) and will easily turn a .90 heli motor on 12v. I've only had my Dyantron for a few months, but my other Sullivan starter has lasted me well for about 15 years. Definitely worth it to spend the money up front in this hobby. > I'll second (third and fourth) the Dynatron. Pretty pricey but almost > enough grunt to start a semi on 22v (I use a 6S LiPo pack on mine) and > will easily turn a .90 heli motor on 12v. Ditto! I'm using a retired 5S LiPo pack I inherited from a friend who's flying X-Cell Ion's. The first time I used that battery it didn't seem like the engine was trying to start, until I let go of the starter switch and the engine spooled "down" to it's idle speed. :-o WAY better than a 12v! :-) The only down side to using these batteries on the starter is that you really need to make sure the engine isn't too wet. If it's near flooded, you can hydrolock the engine with possibly bad results although so far, the worst I've seen is my buddy spin the cooling fan off the engine! :-o Fly Safe, Steve R. >Ditto! I'm using a retired 5S LiPo pack I inherited from a friend who's >flying X-Cell Ion's. The first time I used that battery it didn't seem like [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >although so far, the worst I've seen is my buddy spin the cooling fan off >the engine! :-o Yeah, it's crazy how fast the engine will spin under 5 or 6 cell LiPos. The hydro lock issue is a big one too. I always push the engine through by hand with the starter shaft before I mash the big black button to make sure it'll get through the compression stroke ok. [snip] >The first one of them had a loose connection and melted the wire. >According to me, who studied and works in electronics, the obvious >loose connection in the motor was the cause of the terminal >overheating and melting the surrounding connection. According to the >shop keeper, only good connections get hot, bad connections stay cold. >I must have missed that day in school. We have shop keepers like that over here too. I heard one of them tell a customer that if his heli had a gyro and the engine quit, it would just safely autorotate down, but without a gyro it would drop like a rock...;-) rj > On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 22:58:34 -0800 (PST), crispin.proc...@gmail.com > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > rj Thanks for the info guys. I'm trying to find a local version of the mentioned starters or a shop who will ship to the UK. I cannot believe I am the only person in the UK who has a Raptor 90 and needs a starter for it :) All else fails, I'll get a mate in NY to post me one... I found one on ebay (UK) which is used but working and the guy says he used it to start a 32cc 4 stroke aero engine. Only sometimes he has to help it past TDC before it spins on it's own. As mine is a 15cc, I imagine it has plenty muscle. I think I may go the 24V route though - bigger battery but.... Maybe, just maybe, I can get the engine running before the end of the year ;) Cheers, Crispin > Thanks for the info guys. I'm trying to find a local version of the > mentioned starters or a shop who will ship to the UK. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Maybe, just maybe, I can get the engine running before the end of the > year ;) Try either of these two shops: http://www.skylinemodels.co.uk/ http://www.modelhelicopters.co.uk Chris > Can anyone recommend a good starter? A recommendation from someone who is >75 and >has owned the starter from when he was 12 would do :) >Crispin If you can find one for sale this one will do the job. http://photos.imageevent.com/bayward/radiocontrol/websize/2149.jpg http://ks.jp.org/ks_e/E_KS/index.html Scroll down. Tampa Bob |
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