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Model Forum / Radio Controlled / Helicopters / June 2008



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What are Flybar used for ??

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stearman - 24 Jan 2008 01:51 GMT
I have recently purchased my first helio (Raptor 50 Titan) and am getting
ready to assemble. Also purchased Aerofly sim and the "Basics of RC
Helicopters" book.
I have read thru most of the book but cannot find any info on what the
flybars purpose is. Has anyone got a link to a narrative on the web for
Flybars ?

Stearman
Kevin - 24 Jan 2008 08:22 GMT
> I have recently purchased my first helio (Raptor 50 Titan) and am getting
> ready to assemble. Also purchased Aerofly sim and the "Basics of RC
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Stearman

http://www.rc-airplane-world.com/rc-helicopter-controls.html

not the best site but its a start
RW Salnick - 24 Jan 2008 15:41 GMT
stearman brought forth on stone tablets:
> I have recently purchased my first helio (Raptor 50 Titan) and am getting
> ready to assemble. Also purchased Aerofly sim and the "Basics of RC
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Stearman

I believe that the flybar is a mechanical servo.  That is, it takes the
relatively weak efforts of the electric "servo" and amplifies them
mechanically to provide the necessary force to tilt the whole main rotor
disk.

bob
Beav - 28 Jan 2008 20:54 GMT
> stearman brought forth on stone tablets:
>> I have recently purchased my first helio (Raptor 50 Titan) and am getting
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> relatively weak efforts of the electric "servo" and amplifies them
> mechanically to provide the necessary force to tilt the whole main rotor

Pity them self same servo#s when they're fitted to a heli with NO flybar
then.

Signature

Beav

VN 750
Zed 1000
OMF# 19

pseddon - 29 Jan 2008 16:46 GMT
Try this: http://www.w3mh.co.uk/articles/html/csm9-11.htm

regards Peter

>> stearman brought forth on stone tablets:
>>> I have recently purchased my first helio (Raptor 50 Titan) and am
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Pity them self same servo#s when they're fitted to a heli with NO flybar
> then.
The OTHER Kevin in San Diego - 29 Jan 2008 20:15 GMT
>>> stearman brought forth on stone tablets:
>>>> I have recently purchased my first helio (Raptor 50 Titan) and am
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>>>> flybars purpose is. Has anyone got a link to a narrative on the web for
>>>> Flybars ?

Flybar is where you go to ease your sorrows when you wad up your new
toy.
Beav - 30 Jan 2008 16:32 GMT
>>>> stearman brought forth on stone tablets:
>>>>> I have recently purchased my first helio (Raptor 50 Titan) and am
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Flybar is where you go to ease your sorrows when you wad up your new
> toy.

I thought that was a tittybar?

Signature

Beav

VN 750
Zed 1000
OMF# 19

The OTHER Kevin in San Diego - 30 Jan 2008 21:32 GMT
>> Flybar is where you go to ease your sorrows when you wad up your new
>> toy.
>
>I thought that was a tittybar?

Why do they call it a titty-bar when there's obviously more than one
in there.  That's right up there with toothbrush.
Beav - 03 Feb 2008 11:07 GMT
>>> Flybar is where you go to ease your sorrows when you wad up your new
>>> toy.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Why do they call it a titty-bar when there's obviously more than one
> in there.  That's right up there with toothbrush.

I hope MY f.cking toothbrush isn't right up there.

Anyway, "tittybar" is exclusively spetic speak, I just used the term to
avoid confusion amongst the cousins.

Signature

Beav

VN 750
Zed 1000
OMF# 19

Chuck - 31 Jan 2008 02:28 GMT
Since no one answered the original question reasonably--
The flybar, paddles, and possibly balance weights act as a gyroscope, and
decouple the movement of the helio body from the rotor..
See/search Bell Hiller, Hiller Rotormatic  for details.

In Bell's version, the swashplate is linked to the grip. Cyclic input is
transferred to the blades immediately. In a Hiller head, the inputs are
modified by the flybar. Mixing arms allow the best of both worlds. In a
helio without a flybar, links go directly between the swashplate and grips.
This type of helio is very responsive to cyclic inputs.

> > stearman brought forth on stone tablets:
> >> I have recently purchased my first helio (Raptor 50 Titan) and am getting
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Pity them self same servo#s when they're fitted to a heli with NO flybar
> then.
Kevin - 31 Jan 2008 09:44 GMT
> Since no one answered the original question reasonably--
> The flybar, paddles, and possibly balance weights act as a gyroscope, and
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> helio without a flybar, links go directly between the swashplate and grips.
> This type of helio is very responsive to cyclic inputs.

blimmey are we so posed to give advise on here what ever next , I
thought we are only supposed to take the pi__  :-)
terry - 07 Jun 2008 16:01 GMT
>> stearman brought forth on stone tablets:
>>> I have recently purchased my first helio (Raptor 50 Titan) and am getting
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Pity them self same servo#s when they're fitted to a heli with NO flybar
> then.

paddles for steering the blades to go side or forward
C J Klingman - 08 Jun 2008 17:14 GMT
Hi Stearman,

The below is the best writeup I've seen on rc helicopter flybar theory.  Or
at least the most words.

http://www.w3mh.co.uk/articles/html/csm9-11.htm

However, even this is not super clear.  Some discussions of weighted flybars
emphasize increased stability, maybe in hover, maybe only in forward flight.
Some discussions of paddle flybars emphasize effects on main blade pitch
response time, sometime emphasis on damping response, sometimes the
opposite.

To add to the confusion, I think weighted flybars were originally a Bell
invention and paddle flybars a Hiller invention.  I seen writeups talking
about extended hands-off hovering of Hiller helicopters in the early days.
I seen writeups taliking about the general good overall flying
characteristics of early Bell helicopters.

So, in summary, I can't tell really what is being talked about when
helicopter 'stability' is the subject.  I don't think it means the same
thing as airplane stability, which I understand pretty well.   Any good
discussion of flybar theory should clearly discuss the flight mode involved,
and most don't.

C. J. Klingman
Briarcliff, TX

>>> stearman brought forth on stone tablets:
>>>> I have recently purchased my first helio (Raptor 50 Titan) and am
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>>>>
>>>> Stearman
Steve R. - 08 Jun 2008 21:12 GMT
> Hi Stearman,
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> main blade pitch response time, sometime emphasis on damping response,
> sometimes the opposite.

I think the reason for that is because the flybar can be setup to augment or
damp control inputs to the main blades.  The problem is that there are so
many variables that effect how the flybar does what it does.  Flybar length,
weight of the paddles, size of the paddles, airfoil shape of the paddles,
percentage of mixing ratios between the flybar side and swashplate side of
the cyclic inputs, etc., etc.  There are some consistancies that can
generally be counted on.  "Everything else being equal", a heavier flybar
will be more stable than a light one.  Paddles with a rounded leading edge
will be more docile than ones with a sharp leading edge.  The rest of it is
pretty much an exercise in experientation to figure out what the individual
pilot prefers.  There just doesn't seem to be one easy formula to plug in
and be certain you're going to get the response you want.

> To add to the confusion, I think weighted flybars were originally a Bell
> invention and paddle flybars a Hiller invention.  I seen writeups talking
> about extended hands-off hovering of Hiller helicopters in the early days.
> I seen writeups taliking about the general good overall flying
> characteristics of early Bell helicopters.

Bell didn't have a "fly" bar on it's early machines.  It had a "stabilizer"
bar.  The bar was weighted but it was also aerodynamically blind.  It
received no cyclic inputs from the pilot.  Instead all cyclic commands to
the main blades were routed through the bars mix arms, just like our
bell/hiller mixers.  The difference being that, the bar simply acted as a
stabilizing gyro which made the rotor system easier for the human pilot to
control.  Hiller, on the other hand, used aerodynmic paddles on the end of
it's flybar, like our models do, to control the tilt of the bar itself.  All
cyclic commands from the pilot went to the flybar paddles only.  No cyclic
command from the pilot went straight to the main blades like our models do.
The pilot was flying the flybar and it, in turn, was controlling the main
blades.  It made for a stable control system but also one that was
relatively unresponsive.  That's one of the reasons it's not around any
more, IMO.  Actually, the earliest versions of Bells rotor system didn't
have the stabilizer bar and were known to be quite touchy on the controls.
The stabilizer bar was added to delay a percentage of the pilots control
inputs to the main blades.  This made the rotor much easier to control but,
unfortunately, it did it's job a little too well.  The system reportedly had
a lack of precision so Bell added a set of hydraulic dampers to the system.
If you look at one of the old Bell 47's (the MASH style heli's) you see a
structure mounted on the rotor mast, just below the stabilizer bar.  These
structures have a linkage between them and the stabilizer bar's see-saw
carrier.  These hydraulic dampers force the flybar back to a position 90
degrees to the rotor mast within around 3 to 5 seconds.  That damps the
pilots controls enough to keep them from being overly touchy but not
allowing them to be too dead when more agressive control responses are
needed.  What kind of testing they had to go through to figure out the right
balance in all this, I have no idea, but it had to be an interesting time in
their R&D department.

> So, in summary, I can't tell really what is being talked about when
> helicopter 'stability' is the subject.  I don't think it means the same
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> C. J. Klingman
> Briarcliff, TX

I think you're right, fixed wing and rotory wing stability are two
completely different topics.  I've also read that a rotor can be optimized
for hover, or for translational flight and what's ideal for one isn't
necessarily good for the other.  I really don't think it's all that critical
with our models mainly because, compared to the full size birds, we're so
grossly overpowered that we'd simply never feel the couple of percentage
points difference in one flight mode vs the other.  Generally speaking, I
believe that anything  you do to the models fly bar system that improves
stability in a hover, will also help in forward flight, at least that's been
my experience when adding or subtracting flybar weights.

FWIW!

Fly Safe,
Steve R.
TXHELIJR@dbzmail.com - 29 Jan 2008 21:52 GMT
> I have recently purchased my first helio (Raptor 50 Titan) and am getting
> ready to assemble. Also purchased Aerofly sim and the "Basics ofRC
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Stearman

Flybars is used to balance the helicopter when fly. Flybar is the
metal bar like this picture: http://www.china-magic3.com/picture.php?cat=20&image_id=435
Beav - 30 Jan 2008 16:31 GMT
>> I have recently purchased my first helio (Raptor 50 Titan) and am getting
>> ready to assemble. Also purchased Aerofly sim and the "Basics ofRC
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> metal bar like this picture:
> http://www.china-magic3.com/picture.php?cat=20&image_id=435

f.ck off with your bullshit answers and spamming adverts. c.nt.

Signature

Beav

VN 750
Zed 1000
OMF# 19

Peter Christy - 14 Feb 2008 12:59 GMT
> I have recently purchased my first helio (Raptor 50 Titan) and am getting
> ready to assemble. Also purchased Aerofly sim and the "Basics of RC
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Stearman

The flybar acts as a "damper" on the rotorblades, and reduces the rate of
response to something that human reactions can cope with.

Without some kind of "rate reducer", the response rate of the rotor disc is
so fast that it would have re-acted to your control inputs and crashed
before you even realised what had happened!

By mechanically linking the rotor disk to the flybar, the whole assembly can
only move at the rate of the slowest reacting component - in this case the
flybar (be it Bell, Hiller or a combination of the two).

It is often referred to as a gyroscopic stabiliser, but this isn't strictly
correct. A system doesn't have to be stable to be flyable, provided it only
diverges slowly enough for a human pilot to react.

The gyro on the tail rotor performs a similar function.

Signature

Pete
christy@NOattglobalSPAM.net
(make the obvious amendments to reply!)

Steve R - 22 Feb 2008 16:29 GMT
>> I have recently purchased my first helio (Raptor 50 Titan) and am getting
>> ready to assemble. Also purchased Aerofly sim and the "Basics of RC
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> The gyro on the tail rotor performs a similar function.

What Pete says is essentially true and for most of us, that's how the
helicopter is configured.  The flybar is acting as a "stabilizer" and is
actually reducing the control inputs that we're putting to the main rotor
system.  However, putting large, "light" paddles on the flybar and changing
the Bell/Hiller mix ratios involved and you can have lightning quick cyclic
responses.  Many hard core 3D pilots use this kind of setup.  It's not
faster than human capabilities to control, but does take a fair amount of
concentration to keep up with until you get used to it.  "Finesse" is the
key work here!  :-)

Also, there are a number of flybarless heads available out there that fly
just fine although they're not generally as stable as a flybar equipped
system but certainly not a total handful to fly either.  My first helicopter
was a flybarless machine called a Horizon.  I learned to hover on it without
any significant issues with cyclic authority and that was, as I found out
later, even with my cyclic throws set a couple of degrees higher than
recommended for beginners because I didn't understand what the directions
were asking me to do on the setup parameters.

FWIW!
Fly Safe,
Steve R.
stearman - 15 Mar 2008 18:57 GMT
To all:

   Thanks for response to my inquiry, I now understand the flybar's
purpose.

   Stearman

> >> I have recently purchased my first helio (Raptor 50 Titan) and am getting
> >> ready to assemble. Also purchased Aerofly sim and the "Basics of RC
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
> Fly Safe,
> Steve R.
 
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