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Model Forum / Radio Controlled / Helicopters / November 2008Phoenix vs Fms
I've seen the Phoenix demo, and I get that it has a decent physics engine under it. I *have* fms and enough cables to shove my transmitter into it and wobble helicopters into the ground. What am I *missing* by using FMS rather than Phoenix? I'm a total beginner and so far on FMS I can just about get a hover tail in, and crash really quickly trying to hover nose in. At this level is there any benefit to using a more complicated sim? My aim is to get airworthy in time for January (the insurance runs Jan - Jan) and I don't intent to fly a real craft before then. > I've seen the Phoenix demo, and I get that it has a decent physics engine > under it. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > My aim is to get airworthy in time for January (the insurance runs Jan - > Jan) and I don't intent to fly a real craft before then. What Tx and version of Phoenix are you using? >> I've seen the Phoenix demo, and I get that it has a decent physics engine >> under it. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > What Tx and version of Phoenix are you using? I'm *not* using Phoenix. I'm using FMS. I'm wondering quite what I'm missing by using a less physically accurate sim. I've got an ESky 6 channel 2.4G Tx - an EK2-0406H so the label says. >>> I've seen the Phoenix demo, and I get that it has a decent physics >>> engine under it. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > I've got an ESky 6 channel 2.4G Tx - an EK2-0406H so the label says. Sorry I misread your post. I'm not familiar with FMS, but there are a million helpful people over at http://www.helifreak.com/index.php you may wish to try there! HTH. >>> I've seen the Phoenix demo, and I get that it has a decent physics >>> engine under it. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > I've got an ESky 6 channel 2.4G Tx - an EK2-0406H so the label says. you are missing quite a lot, turn the wind and gusts up in FMS to make it harder & its all I used before flying a t-rex and a nexus 30  SignatureKevin R Reply address works >>> I've seen the Phoenix demo, and I get that it has a decent physics >>> engine under it. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > I'm *not* using Phoenix. Forgive them Lord, for they know not what what wrote. SignatureBeav VN 750 Zed 1000 OMF# 19 >What am I *missing* by using FMS rather than Phoenix? Realism. FMS is *way* too easy to fly. Your training is, however, not completely wasted. You will still train your reflexes. Just remember that it is quite a bit more difficult in reality. SignatureRoRo > I've seen the Phoenix demo, and I get that it has a decent physics engine > under it. > I *have* fms and enough cables to shove my transmitter into it and wobble > helicopters into the ground. > > What am I *missing* by using FMS rather than Phoenix? For the early type stuff, not a lot. Use the FMS. >I'm a total beginner and so far on FMS I can just about get a hover tail >in, and crash really quickly trying to hover nose in. So don't try the nose in shite just yet ;-) > At this level is there any benefit to using a more complicated sim? If the FMS has a wind option (f'narr) turn it up (progressively) and for the basic hovering, circuits and mild aerobatics, it'll do what it's supposed to do. Without a wind option, it's all too easy by far. When you want to emulate a real model though, the Phoenix stands up for itself because it doesn't f.ck up as the speed of the helicoter rises. A common problem wth a lot of sims and one which plagued RealFlight from day one. You'll need to know how a model feels at speed too, because your real world model WILL f.ck off on you and liong before you want it to. It'll do it wuickly to, so knowing how a fast flying model behaves, is a major plus. > My aim is to get airworthy in time for January (the insurance runs Jan - > Jan) and I don't intent to fly a real craft before then. Well enough time on the sim should see you competent with the sim, but that's still not "real" because there's no "bottle factor" with a sim. Get out with an actual model and it's a world of difference because (a) they crash with alarming ease and (b) they home in on the transmitter holder making for comedic moments only enjoyed by those around you. Btw, they f.cking hurt like a bastard when they finally make contact. SignatureBeav VN 750 Zed 1000 OMF# 19 > they home in on the transmitter > holder making for comedic moments only enjoyed by those around you. Like the holder jumping over the bird? Been there, done that. Brian Signaturehttp://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes? >> they home in on the transmitter >> holder making for comedic moments only enjoyed by those around you. > > Like the holder jumping over the bird? Been there, done that. That's at least two of us then :-) I once got clobbered by an X-cell at full speed just at knee height when a servo died. It really should've turned right when I gave the command, but it totally ignored my and then totally skittled me. Two nice slashes on my leg where the carbon blades made contact needing multiple stitches. The scars have nearly gone now:-) SignatureBeav VN 750 Zed 1000 OMF# 19 >The scars have nearly gone now:-) But the emotional damage lives on.... (Or is that just more of the genetically installed mental damage?? ehehe) >>The scars have nearly gone now:-) > > But the emotional damage lives on.... (Or is that just more of the > genetically installed mental damage?? ehehe) Heh:) SignatureBeav VN 750 Zed 1000 OMF# 19 >I've seen the Phoenix demo, and I get that it has a decent physics >engine under it. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >My aim is to get airworthy in time for January (the insurance runs Jan - >Jan) and I don't intent to fly a real craft before then. "Fly" whatcha got and get your hover orientations down. Turn on the wind and vary it's direction and speed. Vary the gusts as well. You'll almost NEVER fly in a zero wind condition with the model and you're going to have to learn how to handle it. Radd's School of Rotary Flight is a good place to start out as well. Google for it 'cuz I don't know the URL. Once you're past the hovering stage, THEN consider a better sim. I use Pheonix and except for the autorotations, the physics are pretty darn close to the real thing. Phoenix 2.0 is in open beta right now so I can only see it getting better in the coming months. Fly the sim like you'd fly the real model. Your goal is to control the heli at all times, not react to what it's doing in total "Oh sh.t!" mode. > Once you're past the hovering stage, THEN consider a better sim. I > use Pheonix and except for the autorotations, the physics are pretty > darn close to the real thing. Aint that the truth! I WISH I had that kind of rotor inertia in the real world! :-) >> Once you're past the hovering stage, THEN consider a better sim. I >> use Pheonix and except for the autorotations, the physics are pretty >> darn close to the real thing. > >Aint that the truth! I WISH I had that kind of rotor inertia in the real >world! :-) Huh? RealFlight has unreal inertia.. Phoenix has almost none unless you do some tweaking - although I haven't had a chance to check out the new V2.0 code from Phoenix. >>> Once you're past the hovering stage, THEN consider a better sim. I >>> use Pheonix and except for the autorotations, the physics are pretty [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > you do some tweaking - although I haven't had a chance to check out > the new V2.0 code from Phoenix. I don't know what to tell you, Kevin. I had Phoenix version 1.05J and compared to most real birds I've flown, it's got gobs of inertia. More than Sam's JR had when he let me use it to get my turbine waiver at IRCHA last summer and his JR was pretty good. If you see him, thank him again for me, will ya?! :-) Anyway, I hadn't looked at Phoenix updates in a while and didn't know about the V2.0 until you just mentioned it. I just got finished updating my Phoenix sim to the 2.0n and I think it's auto realism is better but it's still got gobs of rotor inertia as far as I'm concerned. I haven't done anything to the standard programming, just configured and calibrated my Futaba 12Z to the sim and everything works great. FWIW! :-) Fly Safe, Steve R. > Anyway, I hadn't looked at Phoenix updates in a while and didn't know > about [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Fly Safe, > Steve R. What is cheapest RC station that I can buy to connect Phoenix? >> Anyway, I hadn't looked at Phoenix updates in a while and didn't know >> about [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >What is cheapest RC station that I can buy to connect Phoenix? Not sure I follow. "RC Station"? Do you mean transmitter?? Almost any cheap radio with a trainier port will work for basic controls. If you're asking about the computer itself, Phoenix doesn't need anywhere near the hardware RealFlight does and PCs are dirt cheap these days. >>> Anyway, I hadn't looked at Phoenix updates in a while and didn't know >>> about [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > anywhere near the hardware RealFlight does and PCs are dirt cheap > these days. Or is he talking about were he can buy the sim itself? If that's the case, just do a search and see what comes up. >I don't know what to tell you, Kevin. I had Phoenix version 1.05J and >compared to most real birds I've flown, it's got gobs of inertia. More than >Sam's JR had when he let me use it to get my turbine waiver at IRCHA last >summer and his JR was pretty good. If you see him, thank him again for me, >will ya?! :-) You do know you have to use bearings in the blocks and not just a few properly sized washers right? :) I was runnin 1.05J until a few days ago and Autos in that were horrible. No hang time at the bottom at all. Even my Trex 600 with those pencil thin MAH blades has more hang time at the bottom that Phoenix.... I'm gonna see Sam in a couple weeks. I'll pass along your thanks. >Anyway, I hadn't looked at Phoenix updates in a while and didn't know about >the V2.0 until you just mentioned it. I just got finished updating my >Phoenix sim to the 2.0n and I think it's auto realism is better but it's >still got gobs of rotor inertia as far as I'm concerned. I haven't done >anything to the standard programming, just configured and calibrated my >Futaba 12Z to the sim and everything works great. Just installed "2.0n" a couple nights ago and STILL haven't played with it. How's it compare to 1.05j as far as physics etc? > I'm gonna see Sam in a couple weeks. I'll pass along your thanks. Good deal, thanks! > Just installed "2.0n" a couple nights ago and STILL haven't played > with it. How's it compare to 1.05j as far as physics etc? I've only played with it a little. So far, I'd say that basic flying around (forward, backward, right side up and up side down) feel pretty much the same. I'm not good enough at aggressive 3D flying to be able to tell you what improvements there are in that mode, if any. Autos feel about the same in the descent phase and rotor inertia is "slightly" more realistic but still more than is usual in the real world, in my opinion. One significant improvement I noted is that the virtual model reacts more realistically with the ground. The older version would tip over at the drop of a hat under situations where that would never happen in the real world. Now, it will tip over when it's appropriate, like sliding a bit sideways on landing, but otherwise, it sits on the ground like it should. It would be interesting to get together and compare setups, except that we live about 1500 miles away from each other! I'm really surprised at what you're saying about the rotor inertia on the Phoenix sim. Your experience seems to be the polar opposite of what I've seen. At this point, the only thing that comes to mind, and I have a hard time believing this is an issue with you, given your full size and RC experience, is that you're not lowering the collective enough during the descent? Could you possibly have a setup issue? Just wondering? Steve R. >I've only played with it a little. So far, I'd say that basic flying around >(forward, backward, right side up and up side down) feel pretty much the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >tip over when it's appropriate, like sliding a bit sideways on landing, but >otherwise, it sits on the ground like it should. Got some time over the weekend to get it all dialed in and running. I really don't see the "improvements" to tell you the truth. I had some initial sound issues (Don't know why it doesn't default to DirectX) and some video glitching, but got that sorted out in short order. Auto inertia is improved, but MAN do you get a lot of hang time.. I was doing rolling autos on it last night and probably pulled off 6 or 7 out of 10 - no way I could do that in real life. :) Seems like you can actually bog the heli now which is something the previous version didn't do. Well, at least flying the Trex 700 model. The scale helis are still prone to flipping over regardless of how quick you are on the TR. Setting the "gyro" to HH mode fixes that. >It would be interesting to get together and compare setups, except that we >live about 1500 miles away from each other! I'm really surprised at what [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >lowering the collective enough during the descent? Could you possibly have >a setup issue? I've got skype. :) My previous issues were decay of the rotor RPM even in aggressive maneuvering. In full scale, any change in G loading ramps up the RPM so turning, flaring etc all generate RPM. This new version seems to work much better. The autos I was practicing last night were culminated with very aggressive flares and it SEEMED as if the RPM really ramped up. Then again, it was almost 2am so I might have been hallucinating. :) |
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