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Model Forum / Radio Controlled / Helicopters / December 2009assembly manuel 888
Just picked up a 888 to restore and in desperate need of assembl manuels. do you still have them -- mlarse > Just picked up a 888 to restore and in desperate need of assembly > manuels. do you still have them? 888 is what?  SignatureKevin R Reply address works >> Just picked up a 888 to restore and in desperate need of assembly >> manuels. do you still have them? >> > 888 is what? It's the old Robbie/Schluter mechanics if memory serves! >>> Just picked up a 888 to restore and in desperate need of assembly >>> manuels. do you still have them? >>> >> 888 is what? > > It's the old Robbie/Schluter mechanics if memory serves! before my rotary experience then SignatureKevin R Reply address works >>> Just picked up a 888 to restore and in desperate need of assembly >>> manuels. do you still have them? >>> >> 888 is what? > > It's the old Robbie/Schluter mechanics if memory serves! It serves, but wrongly:-) It was a Hirobo based 61 sized FAI type model from the ate 80's. Part of the "Falcon" series if MY memory serves :-) SignatureBeav VN 750 Zed 1000 OMF# 19 >>>> Just picked up a 888 to restore and in desperate need of assembly >>>> manuels. do you still have them? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Part of the "Falcon" series if MY memory serves :-) I stand corrected Beav. What was it they called the old Schluter Scout mechanics, or was it the Futura? This stuff is really starting to blur but it's only been 20 years ya know! Now that you got me thinking more about it, something like the System 80 (??) or similar comes to mind? If I'm good on that, at least it had an "8" in it. Oh well..... ;-) Good to see you're still round! Steve R. >I stand corrected Beav. What was it they called the old Schluter Scout >mechanics, or was it the Futura? This stuff is really starting to blur but [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Good to see you're still round! >Steve R. I believe you are correct Steve. Or maybe it's "System 88". As much as it pains me to agree with you, I think the "80" is correct tho. :) >>I stand corrected Beav. What was it they called the old Schluter Scout >>mechanics, or was it the Futura? This stuff is really starting to blur [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I believe you are correct Steve. Or maybe it's "System 88". As much > as it pains me to agree with you, I think the "80" is correct tho. :) System 80 or 88 Kev, I have to say I can't recall 100%. Introduced (again IIRC) on the Schluter Magic or Scout (so close together those two, they've f.cked my aging brain:-) around '88/'89 SignatureBeav VN 750 Zed 1000 OMF# 19 >>>>> Just picked up a 888 to restore and in desperate need of assembly >>>>> manuels. do you still have them? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > mechanics, or was it the Futura? This stuff is really starting to blur > but it's only been 20 years ya know! Two different heli's Steve. The Scout followed the Champion which followed the Heli-boy (Bell 222 over here as it was sold originally with a plastic 222 bodyshell). The Scout was followed by the Magic (a big heavy f.cker) and then by the Futura by which time Schluter had been bought out by Robbe. > Now that you got me thinking more about it, something like the System 80 > (??) or similar comes to mind? Indeed. System 80 or 88 I can't recall was the swashplate that tilted 45 degrees to the direction of the shaft and main rotor (it came back 45 degrees through the scissor arm mixers) came after the Champion and was first used on the Magic 60. >If I'm good on that, at least it had an "8" in it. Oh well..... ;-) Good enough:-) > Good to see you're still round! And just passed my 61st birthday too. Getting f.cking old, but still riding 1000cc streetfighter motorcycles and still occasionally flying my Futura 90. And playing guitar and piano 3 or 4 nights a week "out there". Yep, not quite dead yet :-) SignatureBeav VN 750 Zed 1000 OMF# 19 > "Steve R." <srhodes13@comcast.net> wrote in message >> I stand corrected Beav. What was it they called the old Schluter Scout [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > and then by the Futura by which time Schluter had been bought out by > Robbe. You're right on that. I'd forgotten about the Magic. My best flying buddy used to fly one. Calling it a BHF is a gross understatement by todays standards! :-) My first Schluter machine was a Heli-Star. Basically a Heli-Boy with the old Superior rotor head. I thought it was the greatest thing in the world until the Champion came out. After that, I went through two Scouts. >> Now that you got me thinking more about it, something like the System 80 >> (??) or similar comes to mind? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > degrees through the scissor arm mixers) came after the Champion and was > first used on the Magic 60. The 45 degree swashplate was first introduced with the Scout and, I think, has been pretty much the standard since then. It was also the first time that Schluter starting using a sliding swashplate for collective commands. Before that, all of their birds that I know of used a fixed swashplate and the old wire up the slotted mainshaft for collective control. I don't miss that at all! >> Good to see you're still round! > > And just passed my 61st birthday too. Getting f.cking old, but still > riding 1000cc streetfighter motorcycles and still occasionally flying my > Futura 90. And playing guitar and piano 3 or 4 nights a week "out there". Well, Happy Birthday. I hit 54 in December so I'm not that far behind you. On the motorcycle front, I took delivery of my first Harley last February. It's an 09 Ultra Classic. Fast isn't in it's vocabulary by most motorcycle standards but it's totally differnent from any bike I've ever owned and I'm really enjoying it. I'm pushing 12000 miles so far in the 8 months I've owned it! > Yep, not quite dead yet :-) For sure. My Dad turned 76 today and just got back from an annual rally with a bunch of friend of his. He used to be a hard core BMW rider but they're getting to expensive and heavy for him. These days, he's riding a Suzuki 650 Burgman Scooter. I about dropped my teeth when he first started talking about buy it about 3 years ago but it's turned out to be a perfect ride for him. He has no problems getting on and off the bike and it's got plenty of pep for how he rides these days. Getting 50+ mpg most of the time isn't hurting anything either. We both should have a lot of years to go! ;-) Take care & Fly/Ride Safe! Steve R. >> "Steve R." <srhodes13@comcast.net> wrote in message >>> I stand corrected Beav. What was it they called the old Schluter Scout [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > buddy used to fly one. Calling it a BHF is a gross understatement by > todays standards! :-) You're not wrong there Steve. I thought they were ugly f.ckers too with the gold anodised frames and hexagonal tail boom. >My first Schluter machine was a Heli-Star. My first Schluter was the Heli-boy, which went through a huge number of modifications efore I was happy with it. Then I got a Champion:-) > Basically a Heli-Boy with the old Superior rotor head. Althoug missing a fair number of ball bearing supported things, like the pitch arm mixers. Those oddball stepped washers would wear like f.ck unless they were seriously blathered with oil. No such thing as a clean Heli-Star:-) > I thought it was the greatest thing in the world until the Champion came > out. After that, I went through two Scouts. A friend of mine demolished my first Scout (provided by one of the Heli mags of the day) on its first day at the field. Strangely, he was called Steve too and when the heli hit the deck, I just groaned "Stee-eeve". Now, whenever I see him, I say "Stee-eeve" just to make him feel like a twat. >>> Now that you got me thinking more about it, something like the System 80 >>> (??) or similar comes to mind? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > The 45 degree swashplate was first introduced with the Scout and, I think, > has been pretty much the standard since then. You're right, it was. I can't imagine how I got the two in the wrong order :-) > It was also the first time that Schluter starting using a sliding > swashplate for collective commands. Before that, all of their birds that I > know of used a fixed swashplate and the old wire up the slotted mainshaft > for collective control. I don't miss that at all! Nor me, but I still believe that seperating the cyclic controls from the collective is still the best method. And I still absolutely abhore CCPM, either electrical or mechanical. At least for models where the collective range is aroound 22 degrees total and the cyclic deflection can be lots more. >>> Good to see you're still round! >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Well, Happy Birthday. I hit 54 in December so I'm not that far behind > you. Like I say to the missus (who's younger than you), "I'll always be your elder" :-) > On the motorcycle front, I took delivery of my first Harley last February. > It's an 09 Ultra Classic. Well you're a Namerican ain't ya? :-) > Fast isn't in it's vocabulary by most motorcycle standards but it's > totally differnent from any bike I've ever owned and I'm really enjoying > it. I'm pushing 12000 miles so far in the 8 months I've owned it! I've got a "Harley-esque" cruiser, albeit a smaller one (Kawasaki VN 750) but I find the riding position of all cruisers really uncomfortable. Too much weight on my arse bones:-) My Z1000 is perfect though. A slight lean for the bars and not too much of an angle on the legs. I did 3 days riding from England to Sweden and covered just short of 2000 miles and never had so much as a twinge. It rained ALL the way there and ALL the way back home 3 weeks later, but..... That was the start of the 3000 "in country" miles riding holiday of my life, followed by another 2000 mile ride home. Done in 2.5 days. 7000 miles in 3 weeks in perfect weather. I can't fault this thing. The missus can though, coz we had a bit of an "off" a couple of years ago and she hit a f.cking lampost. Broke the f.ck out of her and it's only this July (just over 2 years after the off) that she had her last (hopefully) surgery. Every bone in her left arm was shattered to the point she needed 3 bone grafts. A broken left should AND a broken right shoulder. Not much fun, but she's a warrior (Viking stock, being Swedish) and she's been back on the bike for the last 6 months. I've currently banned her until we get the results of her next scan in December, but I think we'll be Ok to get back to regular riding again next summer. SignatureBeav VN 750 Zed 1000 OMF# 19 >> Yep, not quite dead yet :-) > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Take care & Fly/Ride Safe! > Steve R. >> It was also the first time that Schluter starting using a sliding >> swashplate for collective commands. Before that, all of their birds that [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > range is aroound 22 degrees total and the cyclic deflection can be lots > more. Oooo, I have to ask. Can you name me a machine with a "mechanical" CCPM? There's a bit of a story behind this. The "OTHER Kevin" can fill you in if he's a mind to! :-D >> On the motorcycle front, I took delivery of my first Harley last >> February. It's an 09 Ultra Classic. > > Well you're a Namerican ain't ya? :-) Yeah, I am but it still took me almost 40 years of riding before I bought my first Harley. The first one I ever rode was a '74 Electra Glide. It was WAY bigger and heavier than anything I'd ever been before at the time. It vibrated like crazy and the handlebars were so loosely rubber mounted you could turn them 10 to 15 degrees before the front forks decided to follow along. Needless to say, I was NOT impressed. A friend of mine offered to let me ride his 05 Ultra Classic back in 2006. I almost didn't take him up on it, remembering my experience with that old '74 model but decided, "it's been 31 years, maybe there's been a few improvements!" ;-) Well, there's been a LOT of improvements and I came away from that experience liking the bike WAY better than I ever expected to. Even with that, it still took me another 3 years before I took the plunge and right now, I thoroughly enjoying my 09 Ultra. :-) >> Fast isn't in it's vocabulary by most motorcycle standards but it's >> totally differnent from any bike I've ever owned and I'm really enjoying [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > December, but I think we'll be Ok to get back to regular riding again next > summer. Wow, that's scary. Sounds like she's well on the mend though. Please give her my best and don't let her back on that bike until she's fully recovered. After that, you both ride safe!! Steve R. >Oooo, I have to ask. Can you name me a machine with a "mechanical" CCPM? >There's a bit of a story behind this. The "OTHER Kevin" can fill you in if >he's a mind to! :-D hahaha, should I call Chris now and ask him to chime in? :) Oh and FWIW, I pretty much hate Harleys... >>Oooo, I have to ask. Can you name me a machine with a "mechanical" CCPM? >>There's a bit of a story behind this. The "OTHER Kevin" can fill you in >>if >>he's a mind to! :-D > > hahaha, should I call Chris now and ask him to chime in? :) You can if you want to but "I'm" not going to hop on that wagon again. ;-) > Oh and FWIW, I pretty much hate Harleys... Not a problem, Kevin. No machine, especially Harley's, are for everyone. Different strokes for different folks as they say! ;-) I wasn't that big a fan of them either for a very long time until my friend offered me a test ride on his. Like I said before, I wound up liking it much better than I ever expected to. I've been told many times through the years that if you ride long enough, you'll eventually own a Harley. After that, you won't be able to get rid of it fast enough or you'll never ride anything else. Well, it took me almost 40 years of riding before I bought my first Harley. So far, I'm enjoying it a lot (12,000+ miles in 8 months!) and have no wish to get rid of it. Having said that, I am no where near the point of saying I'll never own any anything else either. BTW, how's that turbine doing? ;-) Fly Safe, Steve R. >You can if you want to but "I'm" not going to hop on that wagon again. ;-) Coward!! :) >Not a problem, Kevin. No machine, especially Harley's, are for everyone. >Different strokes for different folks as they say! ;-) >I wasn't that big a fan of them either for a very long time until my friend >offered me a test ride on his. Like I said before, I wound up liking it [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >and have no wish to get rid of it. Having said that, I am no where near the >point of saying I'll never own any anything else either. IMO, harley owners are like Mac owners.. Downright fanatical.. hehe.. I can't wait to see what the iHarley looks like. :) >BTW, how's that turbine doing? ;-) Still fighting a vibe problem and I'll be damned if I can figure out what it is... >>You can if you want to but "I'm" not going to hop on that wagon again. >>;-) > > Coward!! :) Coward? Naw, I'm just not into massicism. :-) >>Not a problem, Kevin. No machine, especially Harley's, are for everyone. >>Different strokes for different folks as they say! ;-) [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > IMO, harley owners are like Mac owners.. Downright fanatical.. > hehe.. I can't wait to see what the iHarley looks like. :) Harley owners, fanatical??? I can't imagine why you'd think that!! As for the iHarley anaolgy? You're missing the point. Harley owners as a group aren't into technological advancements. You should hear some of the whining I've heard about the fact that current models are fuel injected and DBW throttles! There's even on model, the V-Rod, that is, **gasp**, WATER COOLED!! It's speculated that sooner or later, most if not all their line will be water cooled for emmissions reasons and most Harley folks I've talked to say they'll drop the brand if that happens. We'll see....... :-) >>BTW, how's that turbine doing? ;-) > > Still fighting a vibe problem and I'll be damned if I can figure out > what it is... Good luck on that one. I feel your pain. Fly Safe, Steve R. >Coward? Naw, I'm just not into massicism. :-) I don't know why they call it self abuse. I kind of enjoy it. :) >Harley owners, fanatical??? I can't imagine why you'd think that!! As for >the iHarley anaolgy? You're missing the point. Harley owners as a group [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >will be water cooled for emmissions reasons and most Harley folks I've >talked to say they'll drop the brand if that happens. We'll see....... :-) haha, I heard a lot of the same stuff when dirt bike manufacturers started looking into 4-stroke engines. Funny how a lot of my riding buddies who said they'd never go 4-stroke are now riding 4-stroke bikes... >Good luck on that one. I feel your pain. I'll figure it out eventually - and it'll probably be something REALLY stupid when I do... >>Coward? Naw, I'm just not into massicism. :-) > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > buddies who said they'd never go 4-stroke are now riding 4-stroke > bikes... Yeah, well, in California, from what I understand, you folks haven't been able to buy a 2-stroke powered dirt bike for years anyway. If it's ride the 4-stroke or don't ride at all, I'm not surprised at that. I learned to ride on 2-stroke powered street and dirt bikes. I wasn't keen on 4-strokes, especially in dirt applications because of weight issues. By the time I bought my first 4-stroke dirt bike, most of the weight issues were taken care of and I found I actually liked the 4-strokes power delivery better. They generally have a broader power band. As it is, I haven't owned a dirt bike in years. We just don't have any decent places to ride off road in my part of the world without packing up and driving 2 to 3 hours first. :-( >>Good luck on that one. I feel your pain. > > I'll figure it out eventually - and it'll probably be something REALLY > stupid when I do... Isn't it always! :-) >Yeah, well, in California, from what I understand, you folks haven't been >able to buy a 2-stroke powered dirt bike for years anyway. If it's ride the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >bike in years. We just don't have any decent places to ride off road in my >part of the world without packing up and driving 2 to 3 hours first. :-( I've got a 2 hour drive to ride as well, we just go for 3-4 days to make it worth the drive. The 2-stroke "ban" is for emissions. Personally, I think it's a joke. The amount of time these vehicles are ridden in a given year is quite small and many of the 2-stroke bikes/quads are now banned from being ridden during certain parts of the year. Funny how many 2-stroke weed whackers, chainsaws, blowers etc run for several hours a day, 5-6 days a week yet there are no restrictions on them. >>Coward? Naw, I'm just not into massicism. :-) > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > buddies who said they'd never go 4-stroke are now riding 4-stroke > bikes... 2 Smokers are still far better than 4 strokes though. IF you can find one nowadays. SignatureBeav VN 750 Zed 1000 OMF# 19 >>> It was also the first time that Schluter starting using a sliding >>> swashplate for collective commands. Before that, all of their birds that [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > There's a bit of a story behind this. The "OTHER Kevin" can fill you in > if he's a mind to! :-D Let me think.. The Kavan range all had mechanical CCPM as did the Vario range. The GMP and Hirobo too. All the Schluter heli's after the Champ were mech CCPM too and in fact ANY heli that has a sliding swashplate but needs/uses bell-cranks to achieve collective changes. >>> On the motorcycle front, I took delivery of my first Harley last >>> February. It's an 09 Ultra Classic. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > you could turn them 10 to 15 degrees before the front forks decided to > follow along. Needless to say, I was NOT impressed. Impressed, I'd have been sh.tting myself:-) > A friend of mine offered to let me ride his 05 Ultra Classic back in 2006. > I almost didn't take him up on it, remembering my experience with that old [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > to. Even with that, it still took me another 3 years before I took the > plunge and right now, I thoroughly enjoying my 09 Ultra. :-) I've ridden a few miles on a FatBoy and they're "ok", but they don't really set me on fire and as far as I'm concerned, WAY over priced. >>> Fast isn't in it's vocabulary by most motorcycle standards but it's >>> totally differnent from any bike I've ever owned and I'm really enjoying [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Wow, that's scary. Sounds like she's well on the mend though. Yeah, she's almost there now. > Please give her my best and don't let her back on that bike until she's > fully recovered. After that, you both ride safe!! Done and will (Ha!:-) SignatureBeav VN 750 Zed 1000 OMF# 19 >> Oooo, I have to ask. Can you name me a machine with a "mechanical" CCPM? >> There's a bit of a story behind this. The "OTHER Kevin" can fill you in [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > were mech CCPM too and in fact ANY heli that has a sliding swashplate but > needs/uses bell-cranks to achieve collective changes. Hmmm, interesting. You mention the GMP's and Hirobo's, do you think the Bergen Intrepid would also fall in this category? GMP's were basically Hirobo mechanics and used a large "L" lever for collective movements, with smaller "L" levers for roll cyclic commands. The Intrepid uses a pair of "I" levers with the roll cyclic servo mounted between them but there are still a set of smaller "L" levers that make the 90 degree turn from the roll cyclic control rods to the swashplate. The designs are different but the implementation has similarities. By your definition, would it still qualify as a mechanical CCPM? Just wondering! Steve R. >>> Oooo, I have to ask. Can you name me a machine with a "mechanical" >>> CCPM? There's a bit of a story behind this. The "OTHER Kevin" can fill [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Hmmm, interesting. You mention the GMP's and Hirobo's, do you think the > Bergen Intrepid would also fall in this category? Actually Steve, you make a good point. Maybe we should have a new desgnation:-) CCPM and "Half CCPM) Examples of "half CCPM) would be the Hirobo/GMP/early X-cell's/Bergen style of control layout. These (obviously) had a sliding swashplate, but the links/bell-cranks operating the cyclic controls travelled WITH the swashplate on a lever (usually an "I" beam) so there was very little interaction between collective and cyclic. Some used small L lever bell-cranks on this lever and some used large ones. Larger is better. >GMP's were basically Hirobo mechanics and used a large "L" lever for >collective movements, with smaller "L" levers for roll cyclic commands. >The Intrepid uses a pair of "I" levers with the roll cyclic servo mounted >between them but there are still a set of smaller "L" levers that make the >90 degree turn from the roll cyclic control rods to the swashplate. The >designs are different but the implementation has similarities. Yep and although they are still CCPM, although it's not as obvious as a machine with three servo's or more (don't get me started on thosee with more) ranged around the machine below the swashplate. They don't suffer the same restriction as the electronic "solution" though, so maybe I should have been more specific. >By your definition, would it still qualify as a mechanical CCPM? Well it would, but it's obviously not clear cut. It was only when radio's began to arrive that had on board mixing or stand alone mixers (carried on board the heli's) that the term ECCPM entered into our vocabulary and bell-cranks began to disappear in favour of "black boxes" (Remember Morley's magic box back in the dark ages?). Before that period, this system was simple "CCPM". I rember the Avantegarde" being described as "the" CCPM system to have so I (stupidly) got one. It was ...let's just say "not to my taste". If the swashplate slides, it does so to achive collective changes and that alone puts that heli in the CCPM bracket because the cyclic servos are still connected and we're on the slippery slope of interaction between the two functions and the more the swashplate slides, the more interaction there is. "Collective Cyclic Pitch Mixing (CCPM)" combines collective controls with cyclic (I know you know that, but there may be others wondering what the f.ck we're talking about:-) and it's only when the two functions aren't "tied" that it's not a CCPM machine and even with "I" beams or "L" beam levers, there's still "some" interaction between the collective function and the cyclic function and it's that interaction I utterly despair of. If someone designed and built a f.cking good linear servo that had the required travel, speed AND torque required, I'd change my opinion tonight. > Just wondering! As we should all continue doing. Trouble is, you f.cker, you've got ME wondering now and I'm too bloody old for that sort of stuff. It's all I can do to ride my Z1000 at max speed as it is:-) SignatureBeav VN 750 Zed 1000 OMF# 19 > As we should all continue doing. Trouble is, you f.cker, you've got ME > wondering now and I'm too bloody old for that sort of stuff. It's all I > can do to ride my Z1000 at max speed as it is:-) :-D Love it! Actually, the reason I asked in the first place was because I got involved in what turned into a rather long winded argu...errr...discussion about whether or not MCCPM was a valid term. I never had a problem with it and said so with various reasons why. The other sides most vocal individual maintained that CCPM was a term that was coined by radio manufacturers to describe the electronic mixing of roll cyclic, for/aft cyclic, and collective servos (i.e.: ECCPM) and that was the only valid use of the term. His contention was that if it wasn't generated electronically in the transmitter, it's "not" CCPM and machines like the Bergen Intrepid are "not" CCPM. He made some good points too and I've backed off my position significantly but still don't have a problem with the term MCCPM as a means of differentiating mechanical systems from their electronically mixed counterparts in general conversation even if it's not "technically" correct. You're a person of some reputation for reliable knowledge and info when it comes to model helicopters on this newsgroup and when you mentioned MCCPM, I just had to ask. The OTHER Kevin was also involved, albeit to a lesser degree, in the conversation mentioned above which is why I brought him up. I figured he'd catch this thread and probably chime in, which he did! ;-) It's not a conversation I feel like rehashing again as it's not worth the trouble but this short diversion has been fun! :-) Fly Safe, Steve R. PS: to the OP - sorry for high jacking your thread here. I hope you got something close to an answer to your question. :-) >> As we should all continue doing. Trouble is, you f.cker, you've got ME >> wondering now and I'm too bloody old for that sort of stuff. It's all I >> can do to ride my Z1000 at max speed as it is:-) > > :-D Love it! Me too, but it's the worst time of the year for doing it now. Greasy leaves all over the place and roads that don't know whether to be warm or cold and me being another year older. Bugger. > Actually, the reason I asked in the first place was because I got involved > in what turned into a rather long winded argu...errr...discussion about [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > collective servos (i.e.: ECCPM) and that was the only valid use of the > term. Obviously not right then. > His contention was that if it wasn't generated electronically in the > transmitter, it's "not" CCPM and machines like the Bergen Intrepid are > "not" CCPM. What if it's not electronically generated at the transmitter, but by an on-board mixing unit ala the Morley thing? > He made some good points too and I've backed off my position significantly > but still don't have a problem with the term MCCPM as a means of [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > It's not a conversation I feel like rehashing again as it's not worth the > trouble but this short diversion has been fun! :-) The simple fact is if the two functions are connected mechanically it's CCPM, and if they're connected by only electronic means, they're ECCPM, but the other fact is simple too. People these days can barely recall the days when we didn't have computers in our hands when we're flying so they fail to take into account that all the "new" functions that are done electronically were once done by either mechanical means or by our brains and our finger when we felw. Some people don't even realise that heli's don't NEED a gyro to fly ffs :-) But... you're right. There's no mileage in holding grimly onto old idea's, or descriptive terms when they're all but redundant now. > PS: to the OP - sorry for high jacking your thread here. I hope you got > something close to an answer to your question. :-) Hijacking is ALL that Usenet lives for :-) SignatureBeav VN 750 Zed 1000 OMF# 19 >> His contention was that if it wasn't generated electronically in the >> transmitter, it's "not" CCPM and machines like the Bergen Intrepid are >> "not" CCPM. > > What if it's not electronically generated at the transmitter, but by an > on-board mixing unit ala the Morley thing? If it's driving two to three or more servos like our "modern" CCPM systems do, I think it would qualify as there aren't any interrelated mechanisms involved but I'm not going to speak for the other person by saying that's an absolute! ;-) Fly Safe, Steve R. >>> His contention was that if it wasn't generated electronically in the >>> transmitter, it's "not" CCPM and machines like the Bergen Intrepid are [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > involved but I'm not going to speak for the other person by saying that's > an absolute! ;-) I don't suppose there ARE any absolutes anymore and even if there are, they're not worth getting pissed off about. SignatureBeav VN 750 Zed 1000 OMF# 19 > The simple fact is if the two functions are connected mechanically it's > CCPM, and if they're connected by only electronic means, they're ECCPM, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > electronically were once done by either mechanical means or by our brains > and our finger when we felw. I didn't catch this one well enough to respond before so I'll try again now. Your last sentence which says, "were once done by either mechanical means or by our brains and our finger when we flew," just turned on a light. The other side had stated at one point that with a mechanical system, like the Bergen or Hirobo designs, that if you move more than one control at a time, say, forward and right cyclic, then collective on top of that, the mixing is being applied by your fingers and not by any mechanical means on the bird itself. For my argument, I had used my first model, an old Horizon as an example at one point. It had a mechanical tail compensation. When you moved collective, you got a little tail movement too. It was setup in the geometry of the control system. That's a mechanical mix. One function, collective, is directly changing another, tail rotor. On birds like the Bergen and Hirobo, moving cyclic does not change of modify the collective position and vice versa. Hence, no mechanical mix. We can move the sticks to effect both/all controls at the same time, but cyclic is still not changing collective and collective is not changing cyclic. Each is doing what "we" are telling it to, independently, without effecting the others. He had tried to get this point across to me on a number of occasions but I was so bowed up defending my point of view that I wasn't seeing it. Oh well........ ;-) Make sense? Steve R. >Your last sentence which says, "were once done by either mechanical means or >by our brains and our finger when we flew," just turned on a light. The [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >geometry of the control system. That's a mechanical mix. One function, >collective, is directly changing another, tail rotor. Seems pretty clear... >On birds like the Bergen and Hirobo, moving cyclic does not change of modify >the collective position and vice versa. Hence, no mechanical mix. We can [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >occasions but I was so bowed up defending my point of view that I wasn't >seeing it. Oh well........ ;-) I tried to make that very point in that thread with the resident know-it-all (Pinecone) but of course, it wasn't "correct". Frankly, I don't care what the system is, as long as the heli goes where I point it. :) On Nov 6, 11:39 am, The OTHER Kevin in San Diego <skiddz "AT" adelphia "DOT" net> wrote: > >Your last sentence which says, "were once done by either mechanical means or > >by our brains and our finger when we flew," just turned on a light. The [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > don't care what the system is, as long as the heli goes where I point > it. :) EXACTLY!! :):) On Nov 6, 11:39 am, The OTHER Kevin in San Diego <skiddz "AT" adelphia "DOT" net> wrote: > On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 08:08:50 -0600, "Steve R." <srhode...@comcast.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > don't care what the system is, as long as the heli goes where I point > it. :) EXACTLY!! :):) Hey Chris! How's it going? :-D I was wondering it you might be monitoring this. Do you hang out here as a matter of course of did Skidz give you a heads up? ;-) It's Ok either way. Guess I own you an apology. Please consider it offered! As I said before, I'm a stubborn SOB but I'm not to big to admit when I'm wrong. It just took a while for everything to sink in. I've only been looking at these things the wrong way for 25+ years ya know! ;-) Things at work are slower than a seven year itch but we're hanging in there. The birds are working great though. Nothing serious to complain about. Say "Hi' to your Dad for me and give him my best. Fly Safe, Steve R. >>Your last sentence which says, "were once done by either mechanical means >>or [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > don't care what the system is, as long as the heli goes where I point > it. :) No fun in that Kev :-) SignatureBeav VN 750 Zed 1000 OMF# 19 >> The simple fact is if the two functions are connected mechanically it's >> CCPM, and if they're connected by only electronic means, they're ECCPM, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > mechanical mix. One function, collective, is directly changing another, > tail rotor. Yep, it was a feature of the original Kavan JetRanger too and it was VERY adjustable too. Not that it needed much adjustment, given that the total collective range was around 8 degrees:-) It was similar with the orginal Schluter Heli-boy/Bell 222 too. > On birds like the Bergen and Hirobo, moving cyclic does not change of > modify the collective position and vice versa. Hence, no mechanical mix. But the movement of the swashplate to rotor head IS mixed, although it's mixed "out". Remember the original Hirobo Falcon 555 that had no scissor arm mixers (there's that thing again, a mechanical mixer) on the main shaft? When the swashplate rode up the shaft, the paddles on the (seperate) flybar(s) changed pitch collectively as well as cyclically when roll or pitch commands were applied and they (Hirobo r GMP as was) had to come up with a mixer to stop the collective changes to the paddles. > We can move the sticks to effect both/all controls at the same time, but > cyclic is still not changing collective and collective is not changing > cyclic. Each is doing what "we" are telling it to, independently, without > effecting the others. He had tried to get this point across to me on a > number of occasions but I was so bowed up defending my point of view that > I wasn't seeing it. Oh well........ ;-) > Make sense? Sort of :-) But then again, I'm old:) SignatureBeav VN 750 Zed 1000 OMF# 19 >> On birds like the Bergen and Hirobo, moving cyclic does not change of >> modify the collective position and vice versa. Hence, no mechanical mix. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > roll or pitch commands were applied and they (Hirobo r GMP as was) had to > come up with a mixer to stop the collective changes to the paddles. Actually, the Falcon 555 is a little before my time. I think I've heard of them before but I don't think I've ever seen one. I've certainly never seen a control system where the flybar paddles moved like the collective. That's a new one on me. There's also a difference in the terminology between us too. Isn't that surprising!? ;-) What you're calling a "scissor arm mixer" has, for me, always been called a "washout unit." It has the duel function of allowing the swashplate to rise and fall without binding up on the flybar control links and as a swashplate follower, making sure the inner half of the swashplate properly keeps up with the rest of the rotor system. I've never heard it referred to as a "mixer" of any kind until now. :-) As for the swashplate, it reflects the combined movements of for/aft cyclic, left/right cyclic, and collective. That's true and I always considered it a "mix" too. It looks like one and I went with that for over 25 years. It wasn't a big deal as the subject never really came up but when we got into it over on Helifreak.com, I was calling it a mechanical mix (i.e. MCCPM) because that's how I always thought of it. Chris' point was that there was no mechanical mix on his Intrepid and other such mechanical control systems because there was no interaction between cyclic and collective on such control systems and he's right. You can move for/aft cyclic and nothing happens to left/right cyclic or collective. You can move left/right cyclic and nothing happens to for/aft cyclic or collective. You can move collective and nothing happens to for/aft or left/right cyclic. That means, no mechancal mix and no CCPM because cyclic and collective do not effect each other. Move all those controls at the same time and the swashplate will move accordingly but the fact still remains that each function (for/aft cyclic, left/right cyclic, and collective) is operating independantly from the other two. None of them, individually, makes any change whatsoever to the other two. Thus, no mechanical mix and no MCCPM! >> Make sense? > > Sort of :-) But then again, I'm old:) Understood! It took me a while to warm up to it too! Actually, it took talking to you in a much more relaxed atmosphere and particularly, your comment about how "we" move the sticks taken together with a similar comment made by Chris in that other conversation that finally got me to turn that corner. That's when the light clicked on! :-) Fly Safe, Steve R. >>> On birds like the Bergen and Hirobo, moving cyclic does not change of >>> modify the collective position and vice versa. Hence, no mechanical [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > seen a control system where the flybar paddles moved like the collective. > That's a new one on me. You're not missing anything Steve, they were crap:-) > There's also a difference in the terminology between us too. Isn't that > surprising!? ;-) What you're calling a "scissor arm mixer" has, for me, > always been called a "washout unit." It's known as a washout mixer here too, but the unit works like a pair of scissors, so they acquired the "scissor arm" name too. > It has the duel function of allowing the swashplate to rise and fall > without binding up on the flybar control links and as a swashplate > follower, making sure the inner half of the swashplate properly keeps up > with the rest of the rotor system. I've never heard it referred to as a > "mixer" of any kind until now. :-) Well imagine that two of the 4 rising swashplate links go to the flybar mixers (rocker arms on the flybar carrier or the dog bone type of mixer on the pitch arms of the blade holders) and the other two go directly to the flybar. The flybar has to be split into two halves to do this though or the swash won't rise at all and that's what the 555 did. Now add a washout mixer to the flybar part of the swash control system making it also the swashplate driver and now the swash can rise yet the flybar isn't affected by anything other than cyclic changes. IOW, you've "unmixed" the system. > As for the swashplate, it reflects the combined movements of for/aft > cyclic, left/right cyclic, and collective. That's true and I always [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > other such mechanical control systems because there was no interaction > between cyclic and collective on such control systems and he's right. He IS right, but simply because Bergen went all out to stop any interaction between the two. That heli is LEATHERED in mechanical mixers (mixers to remove interaction or at least stop it before it begins) in the form of a seperate collective lever to which the cyclic bellcranks are attached and they even make a parallelogram arrangement for the for/aft cyclic to keep the bellcranks in their correct position. > You can move for/aft cyclic and nothing happens to left/right cyclic or > collective. True, but that's because the for/aft cyclic servo is well and truly "mixed" out by the parallelogram. > You can move left/right cyclic and nothing happens to for/aft cyclic or > collective. You can move collective and nothing happens to for/aft or > left/right cyclic. That means, no mechancal mix and no CCPM because > cyclic and collective do not effect each other. CCPM isn't about affecting each other per se, it's about mixing all the servo movements to achieve all the functions. Bergen are doing this. Take a look at the original heli-boy/Heli-star and you'll see (you know anyway) that the functions are TOTALLY seperated so there's no interaction to mix out, but bring in a sliding swashplate and immediately there's a need for either mechanical mixers or electronic mixers to achieve all we want while keeping interaction to acceptable limits. For me though, there ARE no acceptable limits given the now common requirement of 22 degrees of collective movement. > Move all those controls at the same time and the swashplate will move > accordingly but the fact still remains that each function (for/aft cyclic, > left/right cyclic, and collective) is operating independantly from the > other two. None of them, individually, makes any change whatsoever to the > other two. Thus, no mechanical mix and no MCCPM! I wonder why all those arms and levers re employed then? :-) >>> Make sense? >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > comment made by Chris in that other conversation that finally got me to > turn that corner. That's when the light clicked on! :-) Check the dimmer switch and get back to me :-)) SignatureBeav VN 750 Zed 1000 OMF# 19 >Hmmm, interesting. You mention the GMP's and Hirobo's, do you think the >Bergen Intrepid would also fall in this category? GMP's were basically [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >roll cyclic control rods to the swashplate. The designs are different but >the implementation has similarities. Ha! I *KNEW* you couldn't leave well enough alone!!! >By your definition, would it still qualify as a mechanical CCPM? and I just know you're going to copy and paste Beav's response to "that" thread aren't you??? >Just wondering! Troublemaker!!!! >>Hmmm, interesting. You mention the GMP's and Hirobo's, do you think the >>Bergen Intrepid would also fall in this category? GMP's were basically [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Troublemaker!!!! Hey Kevin, what school did you go to, to learn mind reading?? Because if they passed you, you need to go get your money back. ;-) In my last post to the OTHER conversation, I stated, "I'm done with this!," and I am. It looks like Beav is closer to my way of thinking on this subject than the other side and that's Ok by me but one thing I am "absolutely" sure of is that it would make NO difference in the outcome of that other conversation, so what would be the point. Just for the record, "I" didn't start this conversation. I simply asked a couple of questions when the subject came up and I don't think I've done anything to skew things one way or the other. I've just asked for an opinion from someone who's about as respected as anyone on this forum. Considering how "out in left field" that other conversation got at times (and I'm as guilty as anyone else for that!), I was just curious how Beav would respond. If he'd sided completely the other way, it would be Ok by me. As for me being trouble maker? I generally try not to be *but* I do have my moments!! :-D Fly Safe, Steve R. >>>Hmmm, interesting. You mention the GMP's and Hirobo's, do you think the >>>Bergen Intrepid would also fall in this category? GMP's were basically [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > As for me being trouble maker? I generally try not to be *but* I do have > my moments!! :-D You're a rufty-tufty biker dude, so start f.cking acting like one :-) SignatureBeav VN 750 Zed 1000 OMF# 19 > You're a rufty-tufty biker dude, so start f.cking acting like one :-) "Rufty-tufty" huh? I've been called many things in my life but never that! Must be a Brit thing! ;-) Thanks for the laugh. :-D Steve R. >> You're a rufty-tufty biker dude, so start f.cking acting like one :-) > > "Rufty-tufty" huh? I've been called many things in my life but never > that! Must be a Brit thing! ;-) Very Brit thing :-) > Thanks for the laugh. :-D It's my reason for being Steve:) And some people used to think I was a nasty f.cker (Hahaha) SignatureBeav VN 750 Zed 1000 OMF# 19 >You're a rufty-tufty biker dude, so start f.cking acting like one :-) LOL! I just got a mental image of Steve on his Harley, sparkling in the sun like one of those poofter "vampires" in the Twilight movies... >>You're a rufty-tufty biker dude, so start f.cking acting like one :-) > > LOL! I just got a mental image of Steve on his Harley, sparkling in > the sun like one of those poofter "vampires" in the Twilight movies... "JUST"???? :) SignatureBeav VN 750 Zed 1000 OMF# 19 >>>You're a rufty-tufty biker dude, so start f.cking acting like one :-) >> >> LOL! I just got a mental image of Steve on his Harley, sparkling in >> the sun like one of those poofter "vampires" in the Twilight movies... > >"JUST"???? :) Well, I try not to think of poofter Harley riders as much as possible... Pretty much the same way I try not to think of the "stunters on their rice-rockets. > Well, I try not to think of poofter Harley riders as much as > possible... Pretty much the same way I try not to think of the > "stunters on their rice-rockets. I suspect much of this conversation is jest, but as a Harley rider since 1986, I just want to say that there are Harley Riders, and then there are "Harley Riders". Brian Signaturehttp://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes? >> Well, I try not to think of poofter Harley riders as much as >> possible... Pretty much the same way I try not to think of the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Brian Brian, Absolutely it's in jest! This thread has gone the gambit from asking for assembly manuals for 20 year old helicopter to discussing the proper definition of CCPM to Harley's! One thing about the motorcycling community that's been a given for a lot of years regardless of the brand you ride, is the attitude that if you don't ride what "I" ride, you're not "really" a true biker, motorcyclist, whatever you want to call it. I've never been one to go along with that attitude. I'm a firm believer in the addage that it doesn't matter what you ride, so long as you ride and enjoy it! Since I bought my Ultra (my first Harley in almost 40 years of riding), I have become aware of that subgroup in Harley circles that takes the "if you don't ride what I ride......" attitude to the next step. Harley riders are the only group I've ever heard statements like, "there are Harley Riders, and then there are "Harley Riders" come out of. There are certain images associated with the Harley culture that I don't particularly want to be associated with but the one aspect of that culture that appeals to me is their independance. Going with or against the flow, doing your own thing, is what it's all about, so long as it's legal anyway! ;-) I'm not trying to flame here and I mean no offense but I guess I just don't get the "there are Harley Riders, and then there are "Harley Riders" mentality! Ride Safe, Steve R. > I'm not trying to flame here and I mean no offense but I guess I just > don't get the "there are Harley Riders, and then there are "Harley > Riders" mentality! No offense taken. I guess what I mean is best given by examples. A Harley Rider is someone who rides those machines because of their mystique, what they are, their history, the pride of owning one, being a part of that culture. A "Harley Rider" is someone who rides a Harley and thinks they are a Harley Rider. They have a bunch of dough and wanna show off buy buying a Harley. Now, this is *my* definition. Other's will certainly vary. I personaly have no problem with people not riding Harley's. They're not for everyone. Heck, motorcycle riding is enough to set you apart from the crowd no matter what you ride. I also don't feel the attitude is specific to Harley's. It's just an attitude specific to a lifestyle and a way of thinking. It just so happens that Harley's are a big part of that attitude and/or have come to symbolize it. There are many who don't have Harley's but still have that attitude. I will agree it is an extreme if someone won't talk to you because you don't have a Harley. But in general, I don't think Harley Rider's are like that. Any that are are just self centered a.s holes who just happen to ride a Harley. And it works the other way, too. I've run into people who assume too much just because you have a Harley and may dress, look, or act a certain way. Now, if only I could make one fly.... :) Brian Signaturehttp://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes? >A Harley Rider is someone who rides those machines because of >their mystique, what they are, their history, the pride of owning [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Now, this is *my* definition. Other's will certainly vary. IMO, if you're on two wheels with a twist throttle in your hand, you're a motorcycle rider. If you're leaving traffic lights with a WOT blast and open pipes or doing a wheelie, you're an idiot. >I personaly have no problem with people not riding Harley's. >They're not for everyone. Heck, motorcycle riding is enough >to set you apart from the crowd no matter what you ride. Egg-zactly! >I also don't feel the attitude is specific to Harley's. It's >just an attitude specific to a lifestyle and a way of thinking. >It just so happens that Harley's are a big part of that attitude >and/or have come to symbolize it. There are many who don't have >Harley's but still have that attitude. Yep, the sportbikers don't like the tourers who don't like the cruiser who don't like the chooper guys.. blah blah blah.. I don't care what you ride. I like the sport touring bikes myself and have no desire to buy a cruiser, chopper etc.. I don't look down on those that prefer other types of bikes tho. (Unless they're one of the aforementioned "idiots") >I will agree it is an extreme if someone won't talk to you >because you don't have a Harley. But in general, I don't >think Harley Rider's are like that. Any that are are just >self centered a.s holes who just happen to ride a Harley. When I still has my Suzuki, I'd get the "wave" from lots of people, regardless of what they were riding. I also got ignored when I'd acknowledge other riders... >And it works the other way, too. I've run into people who >assume too much just because you have a Harley and may dress, >look, or act a certain way. For some people, "Harley" is a lifestyle just like golf is for others. Hey, whatever melts your butter. For me, helicopters are the center of my world. :) >Now, if only I could make one fly.... :) Evel Knievel managed to make Harleys fly.. Bubba Blackwell has as well. I would suggest that if you make the attempt, get video. :) >>A Harley Rider is someone who rides those machines because of >>their mystique, what they are, their history, the pride of owning [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > you're a motorcycle rider. If you're leaving traffic lights with a > WOT blast and open pipes or doing a wheelie, you're an idiot. No arguments there! >>I personaly have no problem with people not riding Harley's. >>They're not for everyone. Heck, motorcycle riding is enough >>to set you apart from the crowd no matter what you ride. > > Egg-zactly! Yup! :-) >>I also don't feel the attitude is specific to Harley's. It's >>just an attitude specific to a lifestyle and a way of thinking. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > other types of bikes tho. (Unless they're one of the aforementioned > "idiots") Sport tourers? I've got a '98 Honda ST1100A for sale! :-) Seriously!! It's got about 58000 miles on it. It's been sitting a lot since I bought the Harley and needs the carbs cleaned but beyond that runs good. >>I will agree it is an extreme if someone won't talk to you >>because you don't have a Harley. But in general, I don't [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Evel Knievel managed to make Harleys fly.. Bubba Blackwell has as > well. I would suggest that if you make the attempt, get video. :) Check these out: http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2007/03/05/motorcycle-engine-powered-airplanes/ http://www.ultralightnews.ca/sun-n-fun04/harleydavidsonengine.htm :-) > http://www.ultralightnews.ca/sun-n-fun04/harleydavidsonengine.htm DAMNIT!!! They stole my idea!!!! Brian Signaturehttp://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes? >Sport tourers? I've got a '98 Honda ST1100A for sale! :-) Seriously!! >It's got about 58000 miles on it. It's been sitting a lot since I bought >the Harley and needs the carbs cleaned but beyond that runs good. I've got my beady eyes firmly locked on a Yamaha FJ1300.. My wallet, however, is not on the same page as my eyes. :) >Check these out: > >http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2007/03/05/motorcycle-engine-powered-airplanes/ > >http://www.ultralightnews.ca/sun-n-fun04/harleydavidsonengine.htm That's only PART of a Harley. Evel and Bubba got the ENTIRE thing to fly. :) >>Sport tourers? I've got a '98 Honda ST1100A for sale! :-) Seriously!! >>It's got about 58000 miles on it. It's been sitting a lot since I bought >>the Harley and needs the carbs cleaned but beyond that runs good. > > I've got my beady eyes firmly locked on a Yamaha FJ1300.. My wallet, > however, is not on the same page as my eyes. :) I love my Z 1000 even more now that it's been given a present of a Power Commander a less restrictive exhaust and a less restrictive air filter. Nice dyno reading of 139 bhp at the back wheel >>Check these out: >> >>http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2007/03/05/motorcycle-engine-powered-airplanes/ My bike already flies :-) SignatureBeav VN 750 Zed 1000 OMF# 19 >>A Harley Rider is someone who rides those machines because of >>their mystique, what they are, their history, the pride of owning [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > you're a motorcycle rider. If you're leaving traffic lights with a > WOT blast and open pipes or doing a wheelie, you're an idiot. Stop it Kev, there's no problem popping wheelies :-) Well not unless you call using *just* too much power. >>I personaly have no problem with people not riding Harley's. >>They're not for everyone. Heck, motorcycle riding is enough [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > other types of bikes tho. (Unless they're one of the aforementioned > "idiots") What did I just tell you? >>I will agree it is an extreme if someone won't talk to you >>because you don't have a Harley. But in general, I don't [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Evel Knievel managed to make Harleys fly.. Bubba Blackwell has as > well. I would suggest that if you make the attempt, get video. :) "Beav" <beavis.original@ntlwoxorld.com> wrote in news:B7lLm.8874$9o1.6680 @newsfe23.ams2: >> IMO, if you're on two wheels with a twist throttle in your hand, >> you're a motorcycle rider. If you're leaving traffic lights with a >> WOT blast and open pipes or doing a wheelie, you're an idiot. > > Stop it Kev, there's no problem popping wheelies :-) Well not unless you > call using *just* too much power. I'd love to be skilled enough to do stuff like that. I know my bike is capable as I've seen the pics of it being done. It's just the rider. However, I will say there is a time and a place. A few months back it was an almost daily occurance to see a guy on a "crotch rocket" going down the street in front of my office on one wheel for about a block at about 60. In traffic. Brian Signaturehttp://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes? > "Beav" <beavis.original@ntlwoxorld.com> wrote in news:B7lLm.8874$9o1.6680 > @newsfe23.ams2: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > bike is capable as I've seen the pics of it being done. It's > just the rider. Get yourself a light dirt bike. A 250 size will work right nicely! You can learn to wheelie to your hearts content without making an arse of yourself on the street, not to mention that dirt is a lot more forgiving than concrete will be if you totally screw up. :-) > However, I will say there is a time and a place. A few months > back it was an almost daily occurance to see a guy on a "crotch > rocket" going down the street in front of my office on one wheel > for about a block at about 60. In traffic. > > Brian As you two have also stated, I'm not one who cares what you ride. I don't mind crotch rockets. If I lived in a place near the mountains or some place like the California coast where twisty roads are the rule rather than the exception, I might own one too but I have absolutely no use for those who pull the stunts you just described. They give the rest of us a bad name and generally only impress themselves. Oh well! Ride Safe, Steve R. >Get yourself a light dirt bike. A 250 size will work right nicely! You can >learn to wheelie to your hearts content without making an arse of yourself >on the street, not to mention that dirt is a lot more forgiving than >concrete will be if you totally screw up. :-) That's how *I* learned, but on a YZ125 and then (even easier) a Suzuki LT250R QuadRacer. I can do wheelies just about forever on my Banshee - or at least until my arms get tired. :) >As you two have also stated, I'm not one who cares what you ride. I don't >mind crotch rockets. If I lived in a place near the mountains or some place >like the California coast where twisty roads are the rule rather than the >exception, I might own one too but I have absolutely no use for those who >pull the stunts you just described. They give the rest of us a bad name and >generally only impress themselves. Oh, I dunno. I have Police and EMT friends and sometimes they tell me the squid carnage is pretty impressive.. >However, I will say there is a time and a place. A few months >back it was an almost daily occurance to see a guy on a "crotch >rocket" going down the street in front of my office on one wheel >for about a block at about 60. In traffic. I wonder if any of those guys have a license plate that reads ID10T.... > "Beav" <beavis.original@ntlwoxorld.com> wrote in news:B7lLm.8874$9o1.6680 > @newsfe23.ams2: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > bike is capable as I've seen the pics of it being done. It's > just the rider. I discovered that it's not so much skill as lack of skill:-) My first wheelie was in town passing a stupid dog slow woman driver. In frustration I gave it a handful and wondered why she seemed to lose altitude while I gained it. after that I was "giving it a handful" all over the place. I've not managed to fall off doing a wheelie yet, but I have manged to get from 1st to 5th up the 'box. > However, I will say there is a time and a place. A few months > back it was an almost daily occurance to see a guy on a "crotch > rocket" going down the street in front of my office on one wheel > for about a block at about 60. In traffic. I'm saying nothing -) Other than the fact that it's an offence over here as "criminal" as getting your knee down when going round a bend. I don't see knee down as anything dangerous at all, but apparently, it is. SignatureBeav VN 750 Zed 1000 OMF# 19 >Stop it Kev, there's no problem popping wheelies :-) Well not unless you >call using *just* too much power. I'm all for riding wheelies - just not on the street... >What did I just tell you? and you honestly expected me to listen? >>Stop it Kev, there's no problem popping wheelies :-) Well not unless you >>call using *just* too much power. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > and you honestly expected me to listen? You not only lift the front wheel, but those other two behind soon follow, so watch yourself dude. You may share the same name as me, but that don't not ever matter :-) SignatureBeav VN 750 Zed 1000 OMF# 19 >>Now, if only I could make one fly.... :) > > Evel Knievel managed to make Harleys fly.. He never perfected that other bit though. The landing :-) SignatureBeav VN 750 Zed 1000 OMF# 19 >>>Now, if only I could make one fly.... :) >> >> Evel Knievel managed to make Harleys fly.. > > He never perfected that other bit though. The landing :-) Not with any consistancy anyway! :-) >>>>Now, if only I could make one fly.... :) >>> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Not with any consistancy anyway! :-) He was the reason that phrase was coined... Any landing you walk away from... :-) SignatureBeav VN 750 Zed 1000 OMF# 19 >He never perfected that other bit though. The landing :-) I guess that depends on what you'd call a successful one. hehehe >> I'm not trying to flame here and I mean no offense but I guess I just >> don't get the "there are Harley Riders, and then there are "Harley [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > I also don't feel the attitude is specific to Harley's. You've got that dead right. We get the same here with the sportsbike riders (if you don't ride a sportsbike, you're not a biker) and it's absolute bollocks. I ride a 1000cc naked (Z1000) and a 750 feet fowards cruiser and any other bike that happens along (including sportsbikes) and as fas as I'm concerned, they're bikes. > It's > just an attitude specific to a lifestyle and a way of thinking. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I will agree it is an extreme if someone won't talk to you > because you don't have a Harley. I went to a bike hangout/restaurant last year and there was a guy there with a van filling tyres with "Ultraseal" (it's like "Slime") and I asked him to do mine. He said "I only do Harley's" so I asked if his van was a Harley and he he said "No". "Better get it changed then because you'll need to be filling your tyres before this day is out" I told him. I wandered off with a silly grin on my chps :-) > But in general, I don't > think Harley Rider's are like that. Any that are are just > self centered a.s holes who just happen to ride a Harley. And they'd be a.sholes even walking. > And it works the other way, too. I've run into people who > assume too much just because you have a Harley and may dress, > look, or act a certain way. > > Now, if only I could make one fly.... :) You'd need to find an engine that won't shake it to bits :-) SignatureBeav VN 750 Zed 1000 OMF# 19 > You'd need to find an engine that won't shake it to bits :-) I know what you mean. I have an '86 883 Sporster. It's solid mounted. After my third oil tank I got smart and made a rubber mount on the tank that kept breaking. I also used to have an alarm system. Knowing there was vibration I padded it. One day the alarm freaked out while riding. Disabling it was easy enough. When I got hoem and opened the box I found the circuit board was disintigrating. However, I do find it soothing on a sore back. The ladies tend to like it to. ;0 Brian Signaturehttp://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes? >> You'd need to find an engine that won't shake it to bits :-) > > I know what you mean. I have an '86 883 Sporster. It's solid > mounted. After my third oil tank I got smart and made a rubber > mount on the tank that kept breaking. It took Harley FAR too long to realise that the solidly mountecd engines shake the rest of the bike to bits. IIRC it was about 2006 they rubber mounted the motor on the Sporty. Too little too late though. > I also used to have an alarm system. Knowing there was vibration > I padded it. One day the alarm freaked out while riding. Disabling > it was easy enough. When I got hoem and opened the box I found > the circuit board was disintigrating. I have to say that it's pretty common with all bikes, be they songles, twins, triples fours or Harley's. I took my alarm off within weeks of aving it fitted. > However, I do find it soothing on a sore back. The ladies tend > to like it to. ;0 That's why I ride a bike with a slight fowards lean needed. Sitting upright with feet forwards f.cking cripples me. (Bad back too) SignatureBeav VN 750 Zed 1000 OMF# 19 >You've got that dead right. We get the same here with the sportsbike riders >(if you don't ride a sportsbike, you're not a biker) and it's absolute >bollocks. I ride a 1000cc naked (Z1000) and a 750 feet fowards cruiser and >any other bike that happens along (including sportsbikes) and as fas as I'm >concerned, they're bikes. Let's hear it for the Moped and Scooter crowd!!! (I used to ride a Vespa 250.. ) >I went to a bike hangout/restaurant last year and there was a guy there with >a van filling tyres with "Ultraseal" (it's like "Slime") and I asked him to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >before this day is out" I told him. I wandered off with a silly grin on my >chps :-) haha, too funny... Maybe he only does Harley's 'cuz they can't figure out how to stop the tires from leaking. :) >You'd need to find an engine that won't shake it to bits :-) ouch!! :) >>You've got that dead right. We get the same here with the sportsbike >>riders [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Let's hear it for the Moped and Scooter crowd!!! (I used to ride a > Vespa 250.. ) Good grief man. Even when I was tot I couldn't bring myself to ride a scooter. My first road legal bike was a 250cc BSA (C-15). Shite, but what did we know when we were 16? Even the thought of getting on a scooter (Lambretta or Vespa were the popular ones back then) filled me with gay thoughts :-) >>I went to a bike hangout/restaurant last year and there was a guy there >>with [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > haha, too funny... Maybe he only does Harley's 'cuz they can't > figure out how to stop the tires from leaking. :) He was just another "Outlaw Biker Wanabee" :-) >>You'd need to find an engine that won't shake it to bits :-) > > ouch!! :) I reckon that's what the last word said would be :-) SignatureBeav VN 750 Zed 1000 OMF# 19 >Good grief man. Even when I was tot I couldn't bring myself to ride a >scooter. My first road legal bike was a 250cc BSA (C-15). Shite, but what >did we know when we were 16? I probably should have mentioned it was my old man's and I was like 12 or 13.. I used to "borrow" it and go runnin' all over the place... They are amazingly durable (ever seen someone jump a Vespa?) and handle pretty well - right up until you hit the floorboard on the street. eheheh >Even the thought of getting on a scooter >(Lambretta or Vespa were the popular ones back then) filled me with gay >thoughts :-) So have you figured out what causes those same thoughts now? :) >>Good grief man. Even when I was tot I couldn't bring myself to ride a >>scooter. My first road legal bike was a 250cc BSA (C-15). Shite, but what [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > So have you figured out what causes those same thoughts now? :) My Dad is riding a 650 Suzuki Burgman Scooter. I've ridden it a couple of times and am pretty impressed with it. He used to be a hard core BMW rider but they've gotten heavier and more expensive as the years have gone by, not to mention the fact that he's not getting any younger. He turned 76 last October. He's had the bike for almost 3 years now and has over 20k miles on it. That includes a couple of trips from the Texas Gulf Coast to Death Valley, CA as well as multiple rides to Missouri and Illinois to visit family as well as multiple tripe to New Mexico with friends. It may not be the most glamorous machine on the road but it runs and handles well and it's physically small and light enough that he doesn't risk a hernia moving it around. As long as he's still wants to ride and is physically able, I'm all for it! :-) Ride Safe, Steve R. >>>Good grief man. Even when I was tot I couldn't bring myself to ride a >>>scooter. My first road legal bike was a 250cc BSA (C-15). Shite, but what [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > My Dad is riding a 650 Suzuki Burgman Scooter. I've ridden it a couple of > times and am pretty impressed with it. f.cking heritic :-) > He used to be a hard core BMW rider Is there such an animal? >but they've gotten heavier and more expensive as the years have gone by, >not to mention the fact that he's not getting any younger. He turned 76 >last October. He's had the bike for almost 3 years now and has over 20k >miles on it. Ok, that makes him hard core enough for me. > That includes a couple of trips from the Texas Gulf Coast to Death Valley, > CA as well as multiple rides to Missouri and Illinois to visit family as > well as multiple tripe to New Mexico with friends. My old ma use to feed tripe to the dogs. didn't half make their farts stink :-) > It may not be the most glamorous machine on the road but it runs and > handles well and it's physically small and light enough that he doesn't > risk a hernia moving it around. As long as he's still wants to ride and > is physically able, I'm all for it! :-) Oh indeedy. > Ride Safe, Mmmm, not usre about that:-) SignatureBeav VN 750 Zed 1000 OMF# 19 >> My Dad is riding a 650 Suzuki Burgman Scooter. I've ridden it a couple >> of times and am pretty impressed with it. > > f.cking heritic :-) Darned straight! It's not something I would have considered but it's not a half bad riding machine. Try to keep an open mind now! ;-) >> He used to be a hard core BMW rider > > Is there such an animal? You bet there is. He was active in the local Houston BMW Owners Club for as long as I can remember as well as an ambassador for the national BMW Owners Association for a good 15 years. The national club has, or at least had a program where the members could register the trips they were going to take through the years. Then they had to produce fuel receipts to prove the mileage they actually rode and the club would keep track of the members total mileage ridden. When a milestone was reached the club issues a patch commemorating the event. The last one my Dad got was for 400,000 miles. After that I think he just got tired of worrying about it. I have no doubt he could have gotten a couple more but didn't bother turning in the paperwork. >>but they've gotten heavier and more expensive as the years have gone by, >>not to mention the fact that he's not getting any younger. He turned 76 [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > My old ma use to feed tripe to the dogs. didn't half make their farts > stink :-) Sometimes my fingers are dyslectic. >> It may not be the most glamorous machine on the road but it runs and >> handles well and it's physically small and light enough that he doesn't [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Mmmm, not usre about that:-) "Usre?" Looks like I'm not the only one with dyslectic fingers! :-D >>> My Dad is riding a 650 Suzuki Burgman Scooter. I've ridden it a couple >>> of times and am pretty impressed with it. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Darned straight! It's not something I would have considered but it's not > a half bad riding machine. Try to keep an open mind now! ;-) The Burgman is advertised over here quite a lot, but the sound it makes is enough to make me cry. It sounds like a cat being strangled. >>> He used to be a hard core BMW rider >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I have no doubt he could have gotten a couple more but didn't bother > turning in the paperwork. A real dude. Obviously not one of the poseurs who buy into the Harley "lifestyle". f.cking top man your old fella. >>>but they've gotten heavier and more expensive as the years have gone by, >>>not to mention the fact that he's not getting any younger. He turned 76 [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Sometimes my fingers are dyslectic. Heh, I actually knew that:-) >>> It may not be the most glamorous machine on the road but it runs and >>> handles well and it's physically small and light enough that he doesn't [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > "Usre?" Looks like I'm not the only one with dyslectic fingers! :-D Dexlictit if you don't mind. (So I'm told) SignatureBeav VN 750 Zed 1000 OMF# 19 > "Steve R." <srhodes13@comcast.net> wrote in message > A real dude. Obviously not one of the poseurs who buy into the Harley > "lifestyle". f.cking top man your old fella. You bet he is! :-) >>>> Ride Safe, >>> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Dexlictit if you don't mind. (So I'm told) Actually, I tried "several" spelling variations on that one. The spell checker on my email program didn't know what to do with the word. I pulled up Microsoft Word and it's spell checker came up with "dyslectic." I don't have a clue if it's right or not. I guess I could go dig up the old Webster dictionary and dust it off but really, open a "book!"? Does anyone do that anymore? ;-) Steve >> "Steve R." <srhodes13@comcast.net> wrote in message >> A real dude. Obviously not one of the poseurs who buy into the Harley [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Actually, I tried "several" spelling variations on that one. Split my word into it's component syllables. Dex... lict.... it. Now if I knew who the f.ck "Dex" was, I'd tell her to give it another go :-) > The spell checker on my email program didn't know what to do with the > word. I pulled up Microsoft Word and it's spell checker came up with > "dyslectic." I don't have a clue if it's right or not. I guess I could > go dig up the old Webster dictionary and dust it off but really, open a > "book!"? Does anyone do that anymore? ;-) I inhale books like there's no tomorrow. I used to read 4 or 5 a week, but I'm a little less of an avid reader these days. 2 or 3 seems to be enough, but the writing has suffered over the years and books need to be REALLY good to "grip" me now. SignatureBeav VN 750 Zed 1000 OMF# 19 >I inhale books like there's no tomorrow. I used to read 4 or 5 a week, but >I'm a little less of an avid reader these days. 2 or 3 seems to be enough, >but the writing has suffered over the years and books need to be REALLY good >to "grip" me now. "Here is Beav. Run Beav, run." :) >>Good grief man. Even when I was tot I couldn't bring myself to ride a >>scooter. My first road legal bike was a 250cc BSA (C-15). Shite, but what >>did we know when we were 16? > > I probably should have mentioned it was my old man's and I was like 12 > or 13.. I used to "borrow" it and go runnin' all over the place... I used a BSA Rocket Goldstar for arsing about on when I was 14. Never rode one legally and these days they cost a bastard fortune just to buy, let alone keep running. > They are amazingly durable (ever seen someone jump a Vespa?) and > handle pretty well - right up until you hit the floorboard on the > street. eheheh I knew too many kids end up under their own Vespa's to ever consider them "pretty good handling":-)> >>Even the thought of getting on a scooter >>(Lambretta or Vespa were the popular ones back then) filled me with gay >>thoughts :-) > > So have you figured out what causes those same thoughts now? :) I think about you and next thing I know..... :-) SignatureBeav VN 750 Zed 1000 OMF# 19 >I think about you and next thing I know..... :-) LOL.. I'm not sure if I should be flattered or just disgusted... >>I think about you and next thing I know..... :-) > > LOL.. I'm not sure if I should be flattered or just disgusted... Whatever makes you happiest Kev :-) SignatureBeav VN 750 Zed 1000 OMF# 19 >> Well, I try not to think of poofter Harley riders as much as >> possible... Pretty much the same way I try not to think of the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > since 1986, I just want to say that there are Harley Riders, and > then there are "Harley Riders". What we in the UK call "Upside down heads". No prizes for guessing why :-) SignatureBeav VN 750 Zed 1000 OMF# 19 >>>>You're a rufty-tufty biker dude, so start f.cking acting like one :-) >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > possible... Pretty much the same way I try not to think of the > "stunters on their rice-rockets. You leave the rice rockets alone. When my front wheel is 3 ft off the ground and I'm reaching terminal velocity I NEED a rice rocket for their reliability and functionality. SignatureBeav VN 750 Zed 1000 OMF# 19 >Hey Kevin, what school did you go to, to learn mind reading?? Because if >they passed you, you need to go get your money back. ;-) I actually went to school to be a psychic, but the school closed down before the 1st year of my training. You'd think I'd have seen that coming. :) >In my last post to the OTHER conversation, I stated, "I'm done with this!," >and I am. It looks like Beav is closer to my way of thinking on this >subject than the other side and that's Ok by me but one thing I am >"absolutely" sure of is that it would make NO difference in the outcome of >that other conversation, so what would be the point. I know, just givin' ya some crap. It's funny, but that thread has sort of started up again and as far as I know, nobody on HF is even aware of this conversation. :) >As for me being trouble maker? I generally try not to be *but* I do have >my moments!! :-D As we all do!! > I know, just givin' ya some crap. It's funny, but that thread has > sort of started up again and as far as I know, nobody on HF is even > aware of this conversation. :) Except for you that is and now it seems, Chris. That suits me just fine for the moment. :-) >>As for me being trouble maker? I generally try not to be *but* I do have >>my moments!! :-D > > As we all do!! :-D > Just picked up a 888 to restore and in desperate need of assembly > manuels. do you still have them? I think you'll find that the instructions are the least of your possible problems. The main gear on the 888 was designed with a spiral (helical cut) tail rotor drive gear pinion and they did two things. They wore out very easily if the mesh wasn't 100% sot on and if you catch the tail on the ground, they self destruct. GMP (they modified Hirobo parts for the US market) introduced a neat modification to the machine by fitting another tail rotor take-off gearbox that used the edge teeth on the main gear to drive the tail rotor. MUCH better if a little noisier. It may be worth your while scouring the eBay adds for Hirobo and GMP parts for the Falcon series of heli's to see if you can get hold of this "behind the main gear" g/box. SignatureBeav VN 750 Zed 1000 OMF# 19 |
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