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Model Forum / Radio Controlled / Land Models / October 2006Base of glow plug colour
Hi Guys What should the base of my glow plug look like after about a gallon, ive been using the same plug since finishing off running in of the engine. I took it off this morning to inspect as ive been having some starting and engine dying mid tank problems. Discovered the bottom of the plug a very dark brown close to black colour. Would this be an indication of too lean/rich? Ill post a pic when i get home Have put a brand new one in, will see how it goes tomorrow http://users.on.net/~annecarl/glowplugold.jpg > Have put a brand new one in, will see how it goes tomorrow > > http://users.on.net/~annecarl/glowplugold.jpg The new plug will cure the problems, looking at that photo you have both been running lean and rich. Looks lean from the colour and shape of the coil (grey and collapsed into the body of the plug a little when it should be shiny and evenly wound) Looks rich because of the carbon deposits on the nose of the plug, just pull the new plug after a tank and let us see the photo to tell you if the mixture is about right or not. The coil should look as I described above and the nose of the plug should be clean and wet not gritty and black looking. Looking at some of the other photos on your website those clutch shoes (shoes1.jpg and shoes2.jpg) give a clue as to the lean running. They have worn so much that they are slipping and that allows the engine to overheat, you think it is too lean and richen it up to compensate then it is sluggish to pickup at first until it gets too hot. So rebuild the clutch and checl the drivetrain for freeness before runningthe truck/car again. Chris > Looking at some of the other photos on your website those clutch shoes > (shoes1.jpg and shoes2.jpg) give a clue as to the lean running. They have > worn so much that they are slipping and that allows the engine to overheat, > you think it is too lean and richen it up to compensate then it is sluggish > to pickup at first until it gets too hot. So rebuild the clutch and checl > the drivetrain for freeness before runningthe truck/car again. is The clutch seems to be hooking up pretty well, have been discussing the burrs on the edges of the shoes they catch on the flywheel as they come back in and either cause the clutch to be stuck on or stuck in, can see scrapes on the flywheel in those pics where it rubs. ill file those off before reassemblig and see how it goes. Thanks for the input guys > Hi Guys > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Ill post a pic when i get home That could indicate a lean condition. I know on mine when I was running a little lean the base would be brown, and the small spot by the exhaust port was black. And the coil looked "white and powdery". I'd say richen it up and check the coil as well. It shouldn't look powdery. A nice tan color is nice. > Hi Guys > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Ill post a pic when i get home Way too lean. You've actually burnt the castor oil in the fuel. A new plug should cure yer' woes. A healthy mixture will produce a slightly yellowish-light brownish color on the base of the plug. Also, what is the oil content of the fuel you're using? I haven't seen a plug buggered up that bad in ages. Pop the head off yer engine (4 screws, very easy to do) and see if you have that sh.t all over yer' head button and piston as well. HTH, Doc > Also, what is the oil content of the fuel you're using? I haven't seen a > plug buggered up that bad in ages. Pop the head off yer engine (4 screws, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Doc Ive just finished off a litre of 18% synthetic oil no castor, prior to that i was running 10% synth with 5% castor. Ive finished with the 18% rubbish i think thats why i was running so lean i was tuning to performace and looking at the smoke trail with so much oil it never stoped smoking. I pulled the head off here are some pics, the top pf the pisoton is pretty brown, cant see the inside of the sleeve too well but its fairly shiny except for a brown ring at the top http://users.on.net/~annecarl/cylbutton.jpg http://users.on.net/~annecarl/cylhead1.jpg I will re assemble, run a tank through and see how it goes. Ill be using 10% synth with 5% castor then take a pic of the plug. >> Also, what is the oil content of the fuel you're using? I haven't seen a >> plug buggered up that bad in ages. Pop the head off yer engine (4 [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > I will re assemble, run a tank through and see how it goes. Ill be > using 10% synth with 5% castor then take a pic of the plug. Start saving up for a new piston, sleeve and head button. She's a little worse for wear! The piston is scorched, and no amount of solvents will remove that shee-ot from it. The piston should be silver and shiny. The head button shows signs of pre-ignition d/t lean mixture and/or excesive temps (note how it's looks kinda bubbly and pitted?). It should look slightly yellowish and smooth. Also, be WAY careful when you reassemble that none of that dirt gets in there!!! Run it till it dies, which won't be very long, and then replace the piston, sleeve and head button. I think your idle/mid-tank dying woes can be partly attributed to the internal shape of your engine. Don't get discouraged, I torched my first nitro engine in about a half-gallon! Doc > "carlhako" <carlhako@gmail.com> wrote in message > > Don't get discouraged, I torched my first nitro engine in about a > half-gallon! > > Doc Mines done 3 and half gallons so I'm doing something right. phew. :) want 3 speed and these mugen shoes next but cant find any decent shoes uk based. Dantxd??? :) Ok reassembled here is the glow plug after trying to run a tank, it died on me after about 2/3rd tank. It was still hard to initially start but once running it seemed ok. http://users.on.net/~annecarl/glowplug+1tank.jpg the base of it still looks shiny in the pic but it is slightly tanned, coil looks the same as new. http://users.on.net/~annecarl/heattransfer.jpg has anyone done this before, i noticed when i reassembled there wouldnt be very good heat transfer from the peice of metal that the glow plug screws into (head button?) so i used some good old cpu heat tranfer stuff i actually couldnt find any standard white silicon stuff so im using fancy arctic silver dunno if it will make any difference but on cpus they dont run without it. Ok will replace all those engine parts and re-run in, will be my first attempt and rebuilding an engine. I still dont really know when im running too rich/lean ive been going by temp and smoke, there always appears to be smoke no matter what temps ive had. Im using a dynamite infra red temp gun may be inacurate? ive measured temps upto 140'C. After i run in ill take the car to lhs or track for some tuning help. > Ok reassembled > here is the glow plug after trying to run a tank, it died on me after [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > infra red temp gun may be inacurate? ive measured temps upto 140'C. > After i run in ill take the car to lhs or track for some tuning help. After seeing your photos and being very lazy at putting my motor back in after fixing the one-way bearing. I decided to pull the head off the 4.6 motor and have a look. The last time it was run (2 weeks ago) was the first time I have been able to get the temp over 115C (240F), It still ran perfect and was thrashed by my brother and cousin for about 90 minutes continuously with out stopping the motor. The glow plug is the second plug I've had in the truck, it was changed directly after running the truck in nearly a year ago. The photos are a bit big but I couldn't be bothered resizing them. http://www.myfoto.com.au/Photo/western4x4/RC_Trucks/PA240255.JPG http://www.myfoto.com.au/Photo/western4x4/RC_Trucks/PA240256.JPG Cheers >> Ok reassembled >> here is the glow plug after trying to run a tank, it died on me after [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > Cheers >> Ok reassembled >> here is the glow plug after trying to run a tank, it died on me after [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > Cheers Thats *very* similar to what mine looks like. In fact if you mixed your photos up with mine, it'd be hard to pick which engine is whos :) I dont suppose you turned the crank around while you had the head off??? I installed my new nova head the other night and when I had the head off, there was absolutely no pinch whatsoever. I could turn the crank over with no resistance at all. I got the Nova head cause to get mine into any state of useful tune it would sit around 140C and creep up to 150C, if I can get those temps down 20C then I can lean it out a bit more and then it'll fly. I run an OS number 8 plug and 20% nitro, what do you run? Cheers Dre > >> Ok reassembled > >> here is the glow plug after trying to run a tank, it died on me after [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > > Cheers Dre Only a very slight pinch as it reached TDC. Running the same as you OS No 8 and 20% but I might go up to 25% this summer as I found some one local that can do me the 25% for less than the 20%. Cheers >> >> Ok reassembled >> >> here is the glow plug after trying to run a tank, it died on me after [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > > Cheers Okay so its wrong to compare HPI and Picco :) My Picco which is much older than my K46 has INCREDIBLE pinch, so much so I'd be inclined to say you'd have to hammer the piston through the sleeve to get it through. Likewise a Hyper 8 I have, that engine was soo hard to start initially to run in cause the piston kept getting stuck at TDC (I had VERY sore hands/fingers once I got it running!) My K46 is pathetic regarding pinch in comparison. Once I had installed the Nova head on the K46 however, I could feel compression and a pop from the exhaust when I turned the crank over... Either way, eases my worries a little. Savage on! Cheers Dre >> Ok reassembled >> here is the glow plug after trying to run a tank, it died on me after [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > Cheers Looks like you had a bit of preignition for a short while (notice the pitting on the right-side of the picture of your head button?), but overall looks very healthy. Doc >>> Ok reassembled >>> here is the glow plug after trying to run a tank, it died on me after [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > Doc I'll have to check my old head, but I didn't notice any of that when I had it off. The main thing I'm concerned about is the lack of pinch. Btw, the Nova head isn't any bigger than my K46 head which I was surprised about. It has more fins but it has a lot less metal around the plug area. I guess I'll find out when I run it, but I would have thought leaving the metal around the plug in would have given even more of a decrease in temp... Cheers Dre > >> Ok reassembled > >> here is the glow plug after trying to run a tank, it died on me after [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > Doc The bottom of the picture is the carby end. I hadn't run the motor after the one-way went the other week and I recon that's moisture as I gave it a wipe down to make sure there was know dirt/dust getting in there before putting it back together and that came straight off. The super macro on my digi camera exaggerates it a little. Cheers Ive been using os #8 glow plugs and 2 differnt fuels both 20% nitro 1. 10% synthentic 5% castor 2. 18% synthetic next month ill order some fuel from the lhs, i think ill go 5% castor with 7% synthetic. until then ill be using fuel number 1 so whats the verdict? all the black crap is from running way too rich? i can ebay a new mach 427 off ebay for probably not too much more than buying the piston, sleeve and button. i havent priced these yet > Ive been using os #8 glow plugs and 2 differnt fuels both 20% nitro > 1. 10% synthentic 5% castor [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > i can ebay a new mach 427 off ebay for probably not too much more than > buying the piston, sleeve and button. i havent priced these yet You'll never goober an engine by running it too rich. As I stated before, this was caused by running it too lean. The black crap is burnt oil and carbon deposits. Doc I re-routed the fuel line behind the tank adding about 15cm i had to replace all the fuel line and all I could get hold of was a slightly thinner fuel line the core was about 1-2mm smaller. Could this cause lean conditions? Apparently a worn piston and sleeve need replacing when there is no compression/pinch, when i turn the engine over with the glow plug in there is heaps of resistance as the piston reaches the top, with the plug out i can feel a little bit, when the head was off it would push the sleeve up as the piston reached the top. It appears i still have heaps of compression One more thing I have noticed is when I prime the fuel line I have to blow quite hard to get the fuel to reach the carby, when the engine was new it took little effort. Could this mean the carby is blocked? im a little hesitant in pulling the engine apart ill probably cause more damage >I re-routed the fuel line behind the tank adding about 15cm i had to > replace all the fuel line and all I could get hold of was a slightly > thinner fuel line the core was about 1-2mm smaller. Could this cause > lean conditions? Yes. > Apparently a worn piston and sleeve need replacing when there is no > compression/pinch, when i turn the engine over with the glow plug in > there is heaps of resistance as the piston reaches the top, with the > plug out i can feel a little bit, when the head was off it would push > the sleeve up as the piston reached the top. It appears i still have > heaps of compression Sounds like it. > One more thing I have noticed is when I prime the fuel line I have to > blow quite hard to get the fuel to reach the carby, when the engine was > new it took little effort. Could this mean the carby is blocked? im a > little hesitant in pulling the engine apart ill probably cause more > damage Does your tank have an in-tank filter or an auxilary filter elsewhere in the fuel line? When you blow into the exhaust line the fuel should get to the carb pretty easily. In fact, putting your finger over the stinger and running your shaft starter should prime the engine rather quickly as well. What BRAND of fuel are you using? Doc > Does your tank have an in-tank filter or an auxilary filter elsewhere in the > fuel line? When you blow into the exhaust line the fuel should get to the > carb pretty easily. In fact, putting your finger over the stinger and > running your shaft starter should prime the engine rather quickly as well. > > What BRAND of fuel are you using? Duh i shoulda checked that, the inline filter may be blocked. Ill try to get hold of some thicker fuel line before i run the engine again. ill run it till it dies, ive bid on some new engine parts on ebay from usa The fuel is mixed by the LHS so no brand name. O'donnels, blue thunder etc dont seem to be sold in australia? The only brand name ive seen is hobbyhq >> Does your tank have an in-tank filter or an auxilary filter elsewhere in >> the [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > etc dont seem to be sold in australia? The only brand name ive seen is > hobbyhq Crappy fuel will bung up an engine like yours is. Cheap oil, cheap al-kee-hol, cheap nitro. Any impurities end up caked to the piston and head button. Doc Would using too thicker fuel hose cause any problems. i measured the core of the fuel line. the original stuff was 2.5mm the stuff i replaced it with is 2mm and also about3x the length. I have some fish pump hose its sylicon and can take the pressure, it has a 4mm core. i could use that with some little clips to help hold it onto the carby, fuel filter etc. > Would using too thicker fuel hose cause any problems. i measured the > core of the fuel line. the original stuff was 2.5mm the stuff i > replaced it with is 2mm and also about3x the length. I have some fish > pump hose its sylicon and can take the pressure, it has a 4mm core. i > could use that with some little clips to help hold it onto the carby, > fuel filter etc. The 4mm stuff won't make a good seal on the tank or the carb, so I would advise against using it. When you replaced the lines, did you make just the fuel line longer or did you make the pressure line longer as well? If the pressure line is too long it can cause lean-bog issues off-the-line. Doc Just the fuel line, but straight after making the mod i noticed it was harder to blow the fuel into the carb. i re-routed the filter behind the shock tower, stock it runs across the engine, the filter actually reseting on the hot head. > Ok reassembled > here is the glow plug after trying to run a tank, it died on me after [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > infra red temp gun may be inacurate? ive measured temps upto 140'C. > After i run in ill take the car to lhs or track for some tuning help. 140c isn't all that hot, but it is a bit hot for a Mach 427 in a 2-speed MT. Mine seem to run between 115c and 132c depending on what the ambient temps are. I have had my Mach .26's running 148-160-ish (low 300's farenheit) for a few tanks of WOT circle-track action and it didn't hurt them none. If you're in the mood to wrench, pop the piston and sleeve out (be careful not to bung the sleeve!!) and see how much pinch your sleeve still has. Lube the sleeve with some oil (I use Marvel Mystery Oil), anything petroleum based will work, and slowly slide the piston up the sleeve. You should start feeling it get tighter around 7mm from the top of the sleeve and it should be damn near stuck by the time you get to 4-5mm from the top of the sleeve. If it slides up all the way towards the top with little resistance your piston/sleeve are likely shot. The first sign of a worn motor is difficulty starting and then mid-tank dying at idle after it heats up a little bit. It is then very difficult to restart until it cools off some. Also, if you find yourself "chasing a tune", where it's running fine one minute and then with the same tune it runs like bunk a few minutes later this is also a good sign the motor is dying. I've had the best luck with O'Donnels 20% race blend (12% synthetic) and O.S. #8 plugs in the Mach .26 and 427 engines. High oil content fuels can be more damaging than protective if they're still smokin' like a freight train while the engine is running too lean. Based on the 427 I just broke in, which was pulled from an LST2, the LSN is almost bang on from the factory (I actually had to richen it 1/4 turn!) and HSN took about a full turn from factory settings to get er' running well. What kind of fuel and plugs are you running? HTH, Doc <snip> > you're in the mood to wrench, pop the piston and sleeve out (be careful > not to bung the sleeve!!) and see how much pinch your sleeve still has. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > resistance your piston/sleeve are likely shot. The first sign of a worn > motor is Yep, mine goes through very easily, in fact I reckon the piston would slip through the sleeve with gravity alone :) Thing is, it runs fine, all the way through the tank. It also restarts hell easy even when hot. The only thing I've noticed is ever since changing the clutch springs, the idle is waay high, if I reduce it, nothing seems to happen until I reduce it to the point where it dies. I have just fitted a proper throttle return spring so now the throttle returns SHUT every single time, none of this dodgy idle sh.t due to sloppy linkages (Im actually quite happy with my little mod :) Anyway I'm hoping the return spring helps with the dodgy idle as it was fine last time I run it. Cheers Dre > difficulty starting and then mid-tank dying at idle after it heats up a > little bit. It is then very difficult to restart until it cools off some. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Doc > Ok will replace all those engine parts and re-run in, will be my first > attempt and rebuilding an engine. I still dont really know when im > running too rich/lean ive been going by temp and smoke, there always > appears to be smoke no matter what temps ive had. Im using a dynamite > infra red temp gun may be inacurate? ive measured temps upto 140'C. > After i run in ill take the car to lhs or track for some tuning help. Also about your temp gun. Are you pointing it at the base of the glow plug when you check temps? Also make sure the temp gun is clean around the sensor as they tend to read wrong when there is dust around the sensor. You should also be able to adjust the temp gun for different surfaces. I have a Duratrax copy. I also have temperature testing equipment at work and the last time I checked it was pretty accurate, within 0.4 degree's C at several temperature readings on several surfaces. Cheers > Also about your temp gun. Are you pointing it at the base of the glow plug > when you check temps? yup i aim it straight down the hold onto the glow plug. i also have a duratrax one the little blue one. i am using the default setting of 95 i think its called the emision value. > > Also about your temp gun. Are you pointing it at the base of the glow plug > > when you check temps? > > yup i aim it straight down the hold onto the glow plug. i also have a > duratrax one the little blue one. i am using the default setting of 95 > i think its called the emision value. Yeh, the owners manual says to use 22 or 77 for the emissions value when measuring on alloy's but I checked these settings against my test equipment and they were way off. 95E shows the most accurate results on most surfaces. Cheers >> > Also about your temp gun. Are you pointing it at the base of the glow > plug [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Cheers I have one of those blue duratrax guns as well, mine was set to 95E when I got it (in fact I only found this setting the other day by accident :) When I first got mine, I measured it against my dads 5 billion dollar one (well not quite 5billion, but it was shitloads) and like you say, it was very accurate. I've never changed it from 95E... Cheers Dre > >> > Also about your temp gun. Are you pointing it at the base of the glow > > plug [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Cheers Dre My boss was a little upset to no that my $39 temp gun from the hobby shop was more accurate than the three $750+ Raytek Laser guns that people keep breaking or misplacing. The only thing the work guns do better is that they actually work over a distance of 30cm and their great for blinding people 50 metres away. Cheers >> >> > Also about your temp gun. Are you pointing it at the base of the > glow [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > Cheers ROFL, nice work, I love stuff like that :) Cheers Dre > Ok reassembled > here is the glow plug after trying to run a tank, it died on me after [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the base of it still looks shiny in the pic but it is slightly tanned, > coil looks the same as new. Coil doesn't look shiney.. looks powdery. Shouldn't be that way. |
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