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Model Forum / General / Models / September 2005Leclerc from Tamiya...
Just opened mine yesterday and was amazed. Not at the detail and quality that I've come to expect from Tamiya (which are amazing in this kit - die cast road wheels already primed!); I was sadly amazed that the instructions included steps for photo etched parts that are integral to the kit (driver's hatch lip, fuel drum tie downs, screens) but only available in a separate purchase. I don't mind if these were additions or modifications, but the drivers hatch lip is not produced in the kit part, the fuel drum tie downs are not present, and you get the idea about the screens. It's not that the extra kit is nice to have, the extra kit is needed to accurately depict the model. C'mon, sanding off the molded on hatch lip would have been an option if I wanted to add an etched part, I've sanded many a molded-on fuel drum tie-down on Russian tanks, etc... I'm saying that it should have been an option, not a requirement. The fact that the instruction show the installation of the parts in their proper steps in the kits instructions just adds insult to injury. At $57 I'd expect such major things to be molded on or optional to place in lieu of aftermarket parts, not instructions to buy more necessary pieces. As long as I'm my soap box, part of the instructions reminded me of a magazine with advertisements scattered throughout (use Tamiya Glue, use Tamiya benders, use Tamiya Scissors...). Is this a fluke? Tamiya did something like this with the Kubelwagen awhile back with the engine kit. It was an add-on that was not needed to make the basic model, and was totally optional. Are there any other kits out there that aren't complete that require more purchases to build the basic modeled? Is this the shape of things to come? Am I wrong in thinking this way? Comments? I myself will get real tired very quickly of spending $60 odd dollars for an incomplete kit loaded with advertisements and instruction on what to purchase next to actually build the kit correctly. Ok, soapbox put away, thanks for letting me vent :) TMB "Michael Brizendine User" > I was sadly amazed that the instructions > included steps for photo etched parts that are integral to the kit > (driver's > hatch lip, fuel drum tie downs, screens) but only available in a separate > purchase. Good info on a possible Tamiya trend. While I can't get too exercised about the advertising in the instruction sheet, the need for a second, integral kit is kinda cheesy. Any mention in any form of the "optional" associated kit on the outside of the primary kit box? Kevin On 8/26/05 11:32 , in article zuHPe.18137$KX7.10873@fe10.lga, "Kevin Carroll" <carrollk@optonline.net> wrote: > Good info on a possible Tamiya trend. While I can't get too exercised about > the advertising in the instruction sheet, the need for a second, integral [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Kevin Nothing spelled out on the box that remotely hints that you need another separate kit, though the phrase "Model may vary from image on box" is sandwiched in with 3 other small blue sentences in the upper right hand corner of the box. I had just assumed that meant the difference in decals and/or painting; or the box artists creative license. No stickers on the cellophane either. Can't account for the Japanese on the box however :) Of note, the photos on the box (not the drawings) of a completed model show clearly the photoetched drivers hatch lip installed and, and (to my eyes anyway) I can see the fuel drum tie down straps and screens. The angle makes it a little difficult to be sure on the latter two, but I think I see them. The drawings clearly show the fuel drum tie-down straps, no mistaking them there. TMB > Just opened mine yesterday and was amazed. Not at the detail and quality > that I've come to expect from Tamiya (which are amazing in this kit - die [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Ok, soapbox put away, thanks for letting me vent :) > TMB They did the same thing with the Swordfish biplane several years ago, brought out the kit and then released a seperate photo etch set including the rigging wires, the torpedo sight and some engine details. Whilst you could build the kit without them, a biplane simply doesn't look right unless its rigged. You have to give it to the Japanese model companies they know how to make money out of us, Hasegawa produces it's aircraft kits with no weapons supplied so you have to buy their weapons sets, and they also make multiple releases of the same kit with differing decal options each time. Happy modelling Ant This is one reason both DML and Trumpeter are beginning to take the 1/35th market away from the big T. Both of them offer kits with OPTIONAL etched parts included in them rather than after-market, and also provide a choice between stryene or etched bits. Trumpeter also offers a choice between link-and-length tracks or vinyl in its kit, something Tamiya never did (you got one or the other, and their aftermarket track kits were the most expensive styrene ones around at one point.) I think erroneous marketing goofs like this are one reason they are going into 1/48 -- to cede the market to the other companies who do it better -- and cheaper. Cookie Sewell They are doing this in some of the new car kits also. The Calsonic Impul Z also contains instructions for use of the optional Tamiya PE set. In the case of the car, the kit builds just fine without the PE, they just replace/enhance some parts, so they certainly aren't necessary to complete the kit. However, it is a little confusing and annoying to have the instructions in the box for something that isn't included IMHO. My take on it is that if it is in the instructions, it ought to be in the box. If Tamiya wants to sell PE separately, that's fine. They should just keep the PE instructions with the PE set, like they have done for previous sets for the Leopard 2A5 and M1A2. Dave On 8/26/05 5:57 , in article H5NPe.5291$2_.4247@bignews6.bellsouth.net, > My take on it is that if it is in the instructions, it ought to be in the > box. If Tamiya wants to sell PE separately, that's fine. They should just > keep the PE instructions with the PE set, like they have done for previous > sets for the Leopard 2A5 and M1A2. > > Dave After thinking on it for a few more hours, I'll take it one better - if it's in the photos and drawings of the actual model on the box then it should be included. I haven't decided if it's exactly false advertising yet, but it's pretty close. I don't build cars of airplanes so I was unaware of these other models mentioned, but it does seem as if Tamiya is testing the waters one toe at a time to see what we'll put up with. I have gone to the Tamiya site for the Leclerc and clicked on the link for "tell us what you think" (or words to that effect) and did exactly that. For me the damage has been done. I usually look for a subject I'm interested in from Tamiya first, but now I'm going to be a lot more skeptical of the sales pitch on their boxes. TMB > On 8/26/05 5:57 , in article H5NPe.5291$2_.4247@bignews6.bellsouth.net, > >> My take on it is that if it is in the instructions, it ought to be in >> the box. If Tamiya wants to sell PE separately, that's fine. They >> should just keep the PE instructions with the PE set, like they have >> done for previous sets for the Leopard 2A5 and M1A2. >> >> Dave >> > After thinking on it for a few more hours, I'll take it one better - if > it's in the photos and drawings of the actual model on the box then it > should be included. I haven't decided if it's exactly false > advertising yet, but it's pretty close. > I don't build cars of airplanes so I was unaware of these other models > mentioned, but it does seem as if Tamiya is testing the waters one toe > at a time to see what we'll put up with. I have gone to the Tamiya > site for the Leclerc and clicked on the link for "tell us what you > think" (or words to that effect) and did exactly that. > For me the damage has been done. I usually look for a subject I'm > interested in from Tamiya first, but now I'm going to be a lot more > skeptical of the sales pitch on their boxes. > TMB Like Cookie said, DML is releasing beautiful kits with with all sorts of what would normally be aftermarket in the box for half of what Tamiya charges. Frankly Tamiya is prcing itself away from me anyway, but to HAVE to buy extra to complete the kit? Not hardly. The AFV Club Tiger looks to be in the same zone as DML. Trumpeter with the KV 1&2 seems to really be socking it to Tamiya on thier home turf with better and similarly priced kits. I think Tamiya is becoming ossified in it's thinking. While I applaud the 1/48 armor the tracks on the Carrier are a dissapointment. I really don't get what they are thinking unless they just don't care. RC is big for them, maybe they are just doing kits from force of habit. Pity, that. Frank If it's in the picture on the box top, it better be inside or it's false advertising. Different decals or paint, no problem- that's a little artistic license. Photoetch on the cover and none inside is pretty out of line. Hasegawa's tendency to rerelease kits with different decals, I'm pretty happy with. Keeps kits on the market longer, they make more profit from the same molds, and I just might not have to buy aftermarket decals. Tamiya seems to be kind of coasting on their reputation. Trumpeter will be eating their lunch, not to mention DML.  SignatureJim Atkins Twentynine Palms, CA USA Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. -Groucho Marx > If it's in the picture on the box top, it better be inside or it's false > advertising. Different decals or paint, no problem- that's a little > artistic license. Photoetch on the cover and none inside is pretty out of > line. That is definitely a fuzzy area. If an aircraft model, on the box-top, shows an attached stretched sprue aerial...is it then "false advertising" if a length of stretched sprue is not included in the kit? Why are "different decals" okay? Decals are "parts" just like pieces of photo-etching. If one wanted to enforce "true advertising", then the box-top should contain a photo of the enclosed sprues, decals, instruction sheet, etc....and no more. Showing a finished painted model, would be "false advertising", since very few kits come with the required paints. Artistic and photographic "enhancement" of the subject, for selling purposes is nothing new, nor is it unique to scale models....it has been the practice for 1/1 scale "female" models for eons...lol. Very few of us are the first ones to buy a new kit (except in the cases where we have been granted a test-shot, or something). By the time we get our kits, someone *else* has usually written something about it; telling the rest of the world what you do and do not get, with the kit. SignatureGreg Heilers Registered Linux user #328317 - SlackWare 10.1 (2.6.10) ..... As far as anyone knows we're a nice, normal family. -- Homer Simpson There's No Disgrace Like Home On 8/26/05 7:05 , in article Faadnetdi-ndM5LeRVn-tQ@adelphia.com, "Jim Atkins" <atkinsnbarkley.nospam@adelphia.net> wrote: > If it's in the picture on the box top, it better be inside or it's false > advertising. Different decals or paint, no problem- that's a little artistic > license. Photoetch on the cover and none inside is pretty out of line. Just to be clear, the photo etched parts on not shown on the box on a separate fret but installed on a photo of a completed model. It's a gray point, but one that should be made in all fairness... TMB > Like Cookie said, DML is releasing beautiful kits with with > all sorts of what would normally be aftermarket in the box [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > really be socking it to Tamiya on thier home turf with better > and similarly priced kits. True, but if the others didn't have a 'market leader' like Tamiya to aim at, would they exist in the first place? (kim) >>>>> "Michael" == Michael Brizendine User <vosges1945@comcast.net> writes: Michael> On 8/26/05 5:57 , in article Michael> H5NPe.5291$2_.4247@bignews6.bellsouth.net, Michael> "Dave Williams" <dwill104@bellsouth.net> wrote: >> My take on it is that if it is in the instructions, it ought to >> be in the box. If Tamiya wants to sell PE separately, that's >> fine. They should just keep the PE instructions with the PE >> set, like they have done for previous sets for the Leopard 2A5 >> and M1A2. >> >> Dave >> Michael> After thinking on it for a few more hours, I'll take it Michael> one better - if it's in the photos and drawings of the Michael> actual model on the box then it should be included. I Michael> haven't decided if it's exactly false advertising yet, Michael> but it's pretty close. I don't build cars of airplanes Michael> so I was unaware of these other models mentioned, but it Michael> does seem as if Tamiya is testing the waters one toe at a Michael> time to see what we'll put up with. I have gone to the Michael> Tamiya site for the Leclerc and clicked on the link for Michael> "tell us what you think" (or words to that effect) and Michael> did exactly that. For me the damage has been done. I Michael> usually look for a subject I'm interested in from Tamiya Michael> first, but now I'm going to be a lot more skeptical of Michael> the sales pitch on their boxes. TMB Interesting, and I feel for you! I looked at this model just last night, in the local hobby shop, and thought,m damn, that looks good. But at 3800yen with the box saying that it was supported and licensed by GIAT, it plain turned me off completely. I did not realize that PE parts were involved even though I skimmed the instruction pages, and no, there was no mention of that on the box, in English or Japanese. I could not find a date either, which is strange since it is usually printed on the box somewhere. Now I hear that it is a brand new kit. One thing that surprised me is that, compared to aircraft models, the details are quite blunt and rounded. Perhaps that's how the real thing is, but I kind of expected more crispness, even in the fairly large 1:35 scale. Ah well, glad I didn't buy it.... Cheers, Gernot SignatureG Hassenpflug /* IJN & JMSDF */ Have a friend who can translate the Japanese? If you're thinking of charging false advertising you should find out if the disclaimer is hiding there. Even so, how many of us Westerners can read Japanese? Therefore hiding it there is unreasonable, IMHO. Bill Banaszak, MFE > Have a friend who can translate the Japanese? If you're thinking of > charging false advertising you should find out if the disclaimer is > hiding there. Even so, how many of us Westerners can read Japanese? > Therefore hiding it there is unreasonable, IMHO. > > Bill Banaszak, MFE Well, I can't comment on the Leclerc, but the Tamiya 1/35 Calsonic Impul Z car has basically the same deal with the kit instructions showing the installation of the separately available PE set specific for the kit. The side of the box clearly shows the PE set with the note that says it is not included. Instead it says the PE set is recommended to add extra detail to the model. That seems pretty clear to me that you aren't going to get it inside the box. The actual instructions also pretty clearly state (in English, Japanese, and French) just above the first step that a PE set is available and instructions are included, but the PE parts are not included in the box. Again pretty clear. Now regarding the box art, the kit has a painting of the car. I'm pretty sure the Leclerc also has a painting on it's boxtop. You can argue that it's supposed to be a painting of the real thing, not exactly what's inside the box. If comparing the box painting to what's inside is false advertising, a lot more than companies than Tamiya are guilty of this. A bad example of this are the box are paintings on Hasegawa's 1/48 F-104S and 1/32 F-104G/S kit, which show an Italian S with full underwing pylons, underwing tanks, and the underintake missile rails, none of which is in the kit. I think the only thing that might come close to legally being false advertising would be if they show a picture on the box of the actual model (not a painting, not a photo of the real thing) built with parts not included in the kit and don't say anything about it. Dave On 8/26/05 10:07 , in article yMQPe.9769$HM2.8755@bignews5.bellsouth.net, I'm pretty > sure the Leclerc also has a painting on it's boxtop. You can argue that > it's supposed to be a painting of the real thing, not exactly what's inside > the box. If comparing the box painting to what's inside is false > advertising, a lot more than companies than Tamiya are guilty of this. To clarify, the Leclerc has a painting on the box cover which shows the tank angled in such a way that the photo etch parts would not be seen. On the near side panel are three colored line drawings, and on the far side panel is a picture of a completed model showing one of the photo etched parts clearly, and several others that appear to me to be there. Due to the angle of the photo I cannot say 100% sure, but I'd go with 99%. The end panels are smaller copies of the box top painting. To reiterate, it's not that the photo etched parts add greater detail or modify the basic kit -- they are used in areas to complete parts that are obviously incorrect without them (the shape of the drivers hatch with the distinctive lip, the tie downs which hold the fuel drums -- they could have been molded on IMHO). As a side note all of this has caused me to study the box in far greater detail than I have ever studied a model box before (aside from the pictures). I found an address for Tamiya in Germany, USA, and the website; but the kit was made in the Philippines without and address. One other item that was a wee bit disturbing: "Warning, this product contains chemicals which are known to the state of California to cause cancer, birth defects, and reproductive harm". Man, I'm glad I live in Alabama :) TMB >>>>> "Michael" == Michael Brizendine User <vosges1945@comcast.net> writes: /.../ Michael> One other item that was a wee bit disturbing: "Warning, Michael> this product contains chemicals which are known to the Michael> state of California to cause cancer, birth defects, and Michael> reproductive harm". Michael> Man, I'm glad I live in Alabama :) ROTFLM... yeah, the curtains swaying in the evening breeze knocked over a bottle of Mr. Color thinner, which leaked ever so slightly during the night, and causing me a massive headache in the morning - despite the open windows! I would say, we modelers should be taking far far greater precautions than we have thus far in dealing with the materials of our hobby. With ever more new products coming to market, ever stronger, quicker-acting, more durable, etc. etc., there are many more chemicals and combinations thereof to worry about than ever before. SignatureG Hassenpflug /* IJN & JMSDF */ : With ever more new products coming to market, : ever stronger, quicker-acting, more durable, etc. etc., there are many : more chemicals and combinations thereof to worry about than ever : before. But first, we have to do something about hydrogen hydroxide. The havoc it wreaks through its unregulated use and disposal in the form of suffication and the cellular damage due to exposure to solid hydrogen hydroxide and its vapors is unacceptable! Not to mention the billions of dollars of damage this natural, uncontrolled substance causes yearly worldwide. California ourportedly had some politicians ready to try and regulate this dealy substance, but were cowed into withdrawing their bill by pressure from the chemical lobbyists. Bruce Signature------------------------------------------------------------------------ "I like bad!" Bruce Burden Austin, TX. - Thuganlitha The Power and the Prophet Robert Don Hughes >: With ever more new products coming to market, >: ever stronger, quicker-acting, more durable, etc. etc., there are many [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Bruce hydorxide? help me out here. what is it in? do i have a hazmat workbench? >>: With ever more new products coming to market, >>: ever stronger, quicker-acting, more durable, etc. etc., there are many [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > hydorxide? help me out here. what is it in? > do i have a hazmat workbench? also known as Dihydrogen Monoxide http://www.dhmo.org/ After spending an hour or so at the above site, if you still don't get it, uggc://jjj.fabcrf.pbz/gbkvaf/quzb.ugz Signatureratfood@food.skaterat.net All foods should be removed to reply Am Wed, 31 Aug 2005 07:28:05 -0500 schrieb "John McGrail": >> hydorxide? help me out here. what is it in? >> do i have a hazmat workbench? > >also known as Dihydrogen Monoxide ...an isomer of that is known as hydroxylic acid, that is high reactive and gains in hazardous capabilities in presence of hydrogen hydroxide... BAN ALL OF THEM - NOW !!!11111 ... cu, ZiLi aka HKZL (Heinrich Zinndorf-Linker) Signature"Abusus non tollit usum" - Latin: Abuse is no argument against proper use. mailto: heinrich@zili.de http://zili.de > : With ever more new products coming to market, > : ever stronger, quicker-acting, more durable, etc. etc., there are many [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Bruce Bruce, your caution can not even begin to describe the horrors of this foul substance. And what's worse, it is prevalent in our public school systems, and the state governments *know* this, and refuse to do anything about it: http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html SignatureGreg Heilers Registered Linux user #328317 - SlackWare 10.1 (2.6.10) ..... As far as anyone knows we're a nice, normal family. -- Homer Simpson There's No Disgrace Like Home > : With ever more new products coming to market, > : ever stronger, quicker-acting, more durable, etc. etc., there are many [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Bruce Right on! Look what an excess of it has done to Louisiana and Mississippi! Bill Shuey >> : With ever more new products coming to market, >> : ever stronger, quicker-acting, more durable, etc. etc., there are many [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Bill Shuey and as a great man once said, water? fish f.ck in water! > and as a great man once said, water? fish f.ck in water! "Water? Never touch the stuff. Fish f.ck in it y'know." KL >> and as a great man once said, water? fish f.ck in water! > >"Water? Never touch the stuff. Fish f.ck in it y'know." > >KL different interview.... On 8/26/05 9:46 , in article 430FD404.7ECCDDDA@nextline.com, "Mad-Modeller" <checkreplyto@nextline.com> wrote: > Have a friend who can translate the Japanese? If you're thinking of > charging false advertising you should find out if the disclaimer is > hiding there. Even so, how many of us Westerners can read Japanese? > Therefore hiding it there is unreasonable, IMHO. > > Bill Banaszak, MFE Nah, I'm not that angry (or capable of taking on an international company over a single model!). I've voiced my displeasure to Tamiya on their website email link, and will modify my selection and purchasing practices accordingly in the future. TMB |
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