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Model Forum / General / Models / September 2005NICE JOB!!!! Jet Blue 292 Crew.
If you don't know, or haven't been watching, Jet Blue Flight 292 has been hovering over So Cal most of the afternoon burning off fuel because the jet's nose gear failed to retract, and was stuck cocked 90 degrees. JB 292 just made a perfect touch down at LAX. The only appearant damage are to the nose gear and the paint on the runway centerline. BZ crew. Well done!!!  Signature- Rufus Yup, great job! Chip > If you don't know, or haven't been watching, Jet Blue Flight 292 has > been hovering over So Cal most of the afternoon burning off fuel because [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > BZ crew. Well done!!! I finally saw this last night. Great job? No, it was luck. Since it was the nose gear simply turned 90 degrees, the whole landing was normal. The luck part came in from the nose gear not collapsing. Leave it to the media to make a big deal out of nothing. Now, had the nose gear been stuck retracted, that would be some work, but this, just luck. > I finally saw this last night. Great job? No, it was luck. Since it was > the nose gear simply turned 90 degrees, the whole landing was normal. > The luck part came in from the nose gear not collapsing. Leave it to > the media to make a big deal out of nothing. Now, had the nose gear > been stuck retracted, that would be some work, but this, just luck. Actually, if the nose gear had been stuck retracted I believe the result would have been no different, except for an amount of damage to the aircraft. The crew did an excellent job of holding the aircraft on centerline with little or no (read reduced) directional control. Period. Signature- Rufus > Actually, if the nose gear had been stuck retracted I believe the result > would have been no different, except for an amount of damage to the > aircraft. This is true. The damage could have been even less. I watched a United 747 land like this once at LAX (only the two inboard main gear were down). The airplane slowed so much that when the nose dropped, the plane stopped immediately on the edge of the gear doors. (Ever see a 747 do a touch & go?) > The crew did an excellent job of holding the aircraft on centerline with > little or no (read reduced) directional control. Period. The pilot apologized after he landed to Air Traffic for being six inches off of centerline. BTW, the runway was opened by 9:00pm that night. The airplane was in a hangar & the nose gear straightened out & the right nose wheel was already attached. SignatureDale G Elhardt Cypress Ca "The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle." http://home.comcast.net/~laxet/ http://www.jetphotos.net/showphotos.php?userid=7702 >> Actually, if the nose gear had been stuck retracted I believe the >> result would have been no different, except for an amount of damage to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > stopped immediately on the edge of the gear doors. (Ever see a 747 do a > touch & go?) I've seen a 747 do a max performance climb out of MCAS Yuma...carrying troops under contract. Holy cow... >> The crew did an excellent job of holding the aircraft on centerline >> with little or no (read reduced) directional control. Period. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > hangar & the nose gear straightened out & the right nose wheel was > already attached. That's that I would have figured. I'll bet the jet would have even been back in service by that evening if it weren't for NTSB red tape. Signature- Rufus > I've seen a 747 do a max performance climb out of MCAS Yuma...carrying > troops under contract. Holy cow... I was in a virtually empty 747 deadheading from Santo Domingo to JFK. The planes flight crew, a second crew being transported and my Dad and I (he was a Pan Am employee). We were up front on the main deck first class. We had dinner trays when the 747 took off. Needless to say we had to hold them. The floor was steep enough that you could not have walked on it, easily past 45 degrees. It was amazing, I would never have thought that it could have performed like that. They always seem so sedate, but I reckon that's to keep the paying customers comforable. Frank > If you don't know, or haven't been watching, Jet Blue Flight 292 has been > hovering over So Cal most of the afternoon burning off fuel because the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > BZ crew. Well done!!! Happy endings, I love happy endings. I was surprised they didn't emergency evac the plane and keep everyone (inc. emergency personnel) away from the plane. No guarantees that malfunctioning nose strut is not going to malfunction one more time and collapse. Even though it recoiled back to length when the plane came to full rest indicating functional hydraulics, I still wouldn't be caught strutting (heh, heh) around underneath the fuselage playing the role. Send in the mechanics first. Stark contrast to the gear up landing that a COD flight made in Norfolk a few months back. I think the first two people out of the C-2 were the pilot and co-pilot... their passengers were not far behind. That must be the difference in mindsets between flying aboard old patched up junk and state of the art. Maybe that or the 'ignorance is bliss' clause. WmB > Happy endings, I love happy endings. I was surprised they didn't > emergency evac the plane and keep everyone (inc. emergency personnel) away [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > WmB If you think about it, why evacuate? The nose strut was down and locked, and there was no fire. The worst that could happen would be that the strut collapses and if everyone is strapped in no one should get hurt. OTOH, if everyone is up and evacuating when it collapses, someone is bound to get hurt. Plus you don't want pax wandering around outside the jet with ARFF vehicles responding. It would suck to evacuate the airplane just to have someone hit by a responding news van. Experience shows that a passenger(s) will be injured simply going out the door and down the slide, so before ordering an emergency evac most crews will balance that against the risk of staying on the jet. Curt "curtknow" <curtknow@cox.net> wrote in message news:U6wYe.6058 > If you think about it, why evacuate? The nose strut was down and locked, > and there was no fire. Not until a mechanic tells me it's down and locked. Maybe that's the way it went down. Maybe the first guys up on the plane inspected the strut and signed off to the rescue personnel and flight crew that a normal exit from the plane was in order. Just making the point that for the same reason the authorities don't allow people to lolly gag around inside structurally damaged buildings that outwardly seem fine, I wouldn't think it's generally a good idea to refrain from walking around or underneath damaged aircraft until a structural specialist signs off on it. Which of course in and by itself is no guarantee the strut is in fact sound. Worst case scenario, playing devil's advocate here: They're all sauntering thru the exits as they disembark normally down the stairs 10 minutes after the plane comes to rest - when the strut collapses. Some people underneath are crushed, the stair truck gets crushed, fuel spills, people on the stairs and in the doorway get hurt, etc. Suddenly you've got a rapidly expanding problem that could have been avoided by following the emergency evacuation plan you've long since developed and implemented for just such an occasion. Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those guys that are dissatisfied with success. I'm glad it went down the way it did and there was no need for a panic response. I'm just leary of what would have happened in the aftermath of a worst case scenario coming to fruition at the hands of the talking heads, pundits and politicians. A year from now they'd still be breast beating and finger pointing on the anniversary of what they would quickly label as a tragedy and national disgrace. What we used to call "accidents" and "acts of God" back in the day. Pardon the unrelated rant of the last paragraph. The Katrina aftermath coverage wore thin on me a week after the storm passed and there's no sign of relief anytime soon. Kudos to the professionals that brought 292 in and saw everyone got off safely. WmB > If you don't know, or haven't been watching, Jet Blue Flight 292 has > been hovering over So Cal most of the afternoon burning off fuel because [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > BZ crew. Well done!!! I think I see a diorama in this. TF > > If you don't know, or haven't been watching, Jet Blue Flight 292 has > > been hovering over So Cal most of the afternoon burning off fuel because [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > TF Yeah! 140 odd passengers rushing for the rest room to change their underwear!! :-) Bill Shuey > > I think I see a diorama in this. > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Bill Shuey And we all know just the 'diolamist' to do it with a built-in smell factor. Bill Banaszak, MFE I just read something about this over on the HH board and finally saw it on the 11 o'clock news. It looked like a job well done by the flight crew. Bill Banaszak, MFE Yes the Pilot made a great landing and the crew did a fantastic job of keeping all the passengers calm as well as informed. They are saying on the News here in New York that the same plane had a problem with the landing gear sometime last week or so. I may not have caught they were saying , but it was about the wheels. Again a Really Great Job of bringing in the Bird guys. I want him sitting in the chair when I have to fly.. :) :) ... Carl .......... . Rama-Lama-BIG-BORG ; BORG TEMPLE N.Y. Central-Park-West ; Master Builder of blessed temple KITS ; Keeper of Secret Temple Decoder Rings & Bracelets ; Fluent-in-1st--Degree--TALK-to-the-HAND --TEMPLE-ETTE--Guards--SIX--&--SEVEN-- The----WORLD--WIDE--WEB----is totally jam packed with thousands of people who are Destined to be nothing more then a faded weatherbeaten ---CHALK--OUTLINE--- along the---INFORMATION--SUPER--HIGHWAY--- This is My Main Modeling Page and Web-Site http://community.webtv.net/CYBER-BORG-4/ThemodelsIlikethe And Introducing "SPOT -the- CAT" http://community.webtv.net/CYBER-BORG-4/MODELERSHELPERall A brief look into what is really me http://community.webtv.net/CYBER-BORG-4/HeresSomeReallyBig Yessss , I'm the -real- "Bad Santa" http://community.webtv.net/CYBER-BORG-4/COMEgetYourPresent "Yes the Pilot made a great landing and the crew did a fantastic job of keeping all the passengers calm as well as informed. " They were watching it on the TV's in their seatbacks--kind of like the in-flight movie in "Airplane!" tomcervo wrote : >> "Yes the Pilot made a great landing and the crew did a fantastic job of >> keeping all the passengers calm as well as informed. " > > They were watching it on the TV's in their seatbacks--kind of like the > in-flight movie in "Airplane!" I think maybe the emphasis here is on the pilot keeping the passengers calm *despite* the best efforts of the TV to panic them. Everyone responds differently in a crisis. Had the pilot not remained calm and kept his wits about him. If he didn't manage to keep the passengers as calm as he did. Had he not shifted the weight by sending the passengers and baggage to the back of the plane the way he did this could all have ended in a Huge Fire Ball instead of just grinding down the nose gear. So yes the pilot does deserve a lot of the credit. ... Carl .......... Rama-Lama-BIG-BORG ; BORG TEMPLE N.Y. Central-Park-West ; Master Builder of blessed temple KITS ; Keeper of Secret Temple Decoder Rings & Bracelets ; Fluent-in-1st--Degree--TALK-to-the-HAND --TEMPLE-ETTE--Guards--SIX--&--SEVEN-- The----WORLD--WIDE--WEB----is totally jam packed with thousands of people who are Destined to be nothing more then a faded weatherbeaten ---CHALK--OUTLINE--- along the---INFORMATION--SUPER--HIGHWAY--- This is My Main Modeling Page and Web-Site http://community.webtv.net/CYBER-BORG-4/ThemodelsIlikethe And Introducing "SPOT -the- CAT" http://community.webtv.net/CYBER-BORG-4/MODELERSHELPERall A brief look into what is really me http://community.webtv.net/CYBER-BORG-4/HeresSomeReallyBig Yessss , I'm the -real- "Bad Santa" http://community.webtv.net/CYBER-BORG-4/COMEgetYourPresent > tomcervo wrote : > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I think maybe the emphasis here is on the pilot keeping the passengers > calm *despite* the best efforts of the TV to panic them. I understand that they turned off the seat back TVs before the landing. I don't wonder, if the passengers had seen the fireball under the front of the plane they may have evacuated while it was still moving. > > tomcervo wrote : > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > don't wonder, if the passengers had seen the fireball under the front of the > plane they may have evacuated while it was still moving. I assume you meant the plane..... Bill Banaszak, MFE >> > tomcervo wrote : >> > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Bill Banaszak, MFE Either way. When I saw it flare up at first I thought My God! it's gonna burn. But as it became apparent that all was well I thought about what would have been going through people's minds had they seen it while stuck inside. Yikes!! > Either way. When I saw it flare up at first I thought My God! it's gonna > burn. But as it became apparent that all was well I thought about what > would > have been going through people's minds had they seen it while stuck > inside. > Yikes!! I was surprised that tires did not come off the rim, even when the lower portions had worn through and the wheel was being ground away (the source of the fire). I was also surprised that the wheel or tire remnants did not ignite and burn after the plane stopped. IIRC there wasn't even any smoldering or smoke when it stopped. KL >>Either way. When I saw it flare up at first I thought My God! it's gonna >>burn. But as it became apparent that all was well I thought about what [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > KL That's because contrary to what it looked like, there wasn't any fire. Just (a lot) sparking from the metal hubs grinding against the pavement. If you've ever seen an aircraft actually on fire, you'll remember it. I suppose there could have been some leakage of hyd fluid which may have burned off, but typically there are no brakes on a nose wheel assembly so I'd think that unlikely unless the gear collapsed...which it didn't. If the hubs had been titianium or magnesium they might have ignited (when I was working for GE we had this problem with CF-6 series engines with steel rotors and titanium cases - the cases could light off and burn during a compressor stall/blade rub...not pretty) - so I can only assume a good design choice of materials for those hubs. Yes - I was suprised that the tires didn't ignite as well...in fact, it appeared that they actually surpressed the sparking eventually. Chalk it up to progess in materials tech?.. BTW - someone mentioned the fact that the strut remained extended as evidence that they hyds were operational, which also isn't applicable. Gear struts are serviced with thier own sources of oil and nitrogen which are typically independant of the the actuating branches of the system. Nosewheel steering will typicall be on one of the power branches, but I'd be shocked if the steering motor and the gear actuator branches were/are not somehow isolated - which is how such a failure mode might arise; nosegear down and locked, but cocked. I did notice that the reversers weren't deployed - so the crew used braking and the resulting friction of the dragging nose gear only the stop the jet. I'd like to know if the touch down was any slower than what the book calls for - the jet did come to a stop with plenty of runway remaining, even though I thought the touch down point was a bit further down the runway than I would have liked it to have been. I'd also like to know at what point the crew cut the engines. Signature- Rufus I was unaware that titanium was that flamable. Magnesium's abilities were shown to us in high school chemistry. My question here is, do all Airbus nose gear twist 90 degrees before retracting? If not, how'd they get off with the strut in that position? Bill Banaszak, MFE > I was unaware that titanium was that flamable. Magnesium's abilities > were shown to us in high school chemistry. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Bill Banaszak, MFE Yes - titanium and magnesium will both ignite and burn in a similar manner. And if you recall your HS chem, a proper mix of powdered aluminum and steel will do the same thing and worse...remember thermite?.. That's the big question - what is the retract motion sequence for an A320 nose gear? A quick Google search turned up some speculation that the gear does rotate on retraction, but I didn't find anything I would be willing to call definitive. Signature- Rufus >...what is the retract motion sequence for an A320 nose gear? AFAIK it rotates 90 degrees before retracting. The article below doesn't say one way or the other but insinuates that it does: <http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-jetblue23sep23,0,1047614,full.story> or http://tinyurl.com/c8h89 "The problems with JetBlue Flight 292 marked at least the seventh time that the front landing gear of an Airbus jet has locked at a 90-degree angle..." The article also addresses a couple of other questions I've seen posted here. SignatureAl Superczynski, MFE, IPMS/USA #3795, continuous since 1968 My "From" address is munged - click "Reply To" to respond via email. Check out my want lists and eBay listings at "Al's Place": http://www.network54.com/realm/modeleral/ "Build what YOU like, the way YOU want to, and the critics will flame you every time." >>...what is the retract motion sequence for an A320 nose gear? > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > The article also addresses a couple of other questions I've seen > posted here. Thay do not rotate. I've posted a picture at abms to show the retraction. SignatureDale G Elhardt Cypress Ca "The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle." http://home.comcast.net/~laxet/ http://www.jetphotos.net/showphotos.php?userid=7702 >They do not rotate. I've posted a picture at abms to show the retraction. Apparently they did on at least eight aircraft so far... ;-p SignatureAl Superczynski, MFE, IPMS/USA #3795, continuous since 1968 My "From" address is munged - click "Reply To" to respond via email. Check out my want lists and eBay listings at "Al's Place": http://www.network54.com/realm/modeleral/ "Build what YOU like, the way YOU want to, and the critics will flame you every time." > Either way. When I saw it flare up at first I thought My God! it's gonna > burn. But as it became apparent that all was well I thought about what would > have been going through people's minds had they seen it while stuck inside. > Yikes!! Sorry, Frank, I was exercising the weirder side of my sense of humour. However, I agree now that I've seen it more often. My first sight was about 30 seconds on the 11 PM news out of Philly and I was partly distracted at the time. Bill Banaszak, MFE |
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