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Model Forum / General / Models / November 2005Flat Black again
Some time ago I asked about Black color - I was looking for black that is more 'flat' than Pactra black. I have bought Humbrol and Modelmaster flat Blacks - they're both pretty much the same 'flat' as Pactra (big disappointment). I mean all three paints shine like plastic. I have wheels painted with Tamiya olive drab which is beautifully flat. I try to paints the rubber and it outshines the olive drab. So - does anyone know if Tamiya black is more 'flat' than Pactra/Humbrol?Modelmaster? Or is this the same? Maciek ps. I tried using Vallejo matt medium and matt varnish - thay do increase flatness but in an almost not noticeable level. > Some time ago I asked about Black color - I was looking for black that is > more 'flat' than Pactra black. I have bought Humbrol and Modelmaster flat [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > ps. I tried using Vallejo matt medium and matt varnish - thay do increase > flatness but in an almost not noticeable level. For a flatter black, try Floquil's Grimy Black. It isn't onyx in shade but very flat. If you are using acrylics, have you tried mixing in some Tamiya flat base with your color? -- Chuck Ryan Springfield OH > For a flatter black, try Floquil's Grimy Black. It isn't onyx in shade but > very flat. I will look for it. > If you are using acrylics, have you tried mixing in some Tamiya > flat base with your color? Yes I am using acrylics. I haven't used Tamiya flat base - only Vallejo 'matt medium' which didn't work good enough. I will look for Tamyia flat base. Thanks Maciek >> For a flatter black, try Floquil's Grimy Black. It isn't onyx in >> shade but very flat. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Thanks > Maciek Have you tried mixing some Tamiya Flat Base in the pactra Flat black? That seems to do the trick. Or try shooting it with an airbrush. I use Pactra Flat Black and airbrushed it is as flat as flat can be. HTH Dennis > Some time ago I asked about Black color - I was looking for black that is > more 'flat' than Pactra black. I have bought Humbrol and Modelmaster flat [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > ps. I tried using Vallejo matt medium and matt varnish - thay do increase > flatness but in an almost not noticeable level. I use Floquil Grimey Black for pretty much everything. It's more of a dark gray than black. You can get it in railroad paints. Regarding flatness, and buy a bottle of dull-cote; it'll make anything flat, and uniformly so. Also you want to gloss before decalling so you need the flat coat over the top anyhow. --- Tontoni I use FolkArt Licorice or Plaid Black acrylic craft paint. It is flat as flat can be. I can add Folkart Matte which will turn it to satin, or Future which turns it to gloss. > Some time ago I asked about Black color - I was looking for black that is > more 'flat' than Pactra black. I have bought Humbrol and Modelmaster flat [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > ps. I tried using Vallejo matt medium and matt varnish - thay do increase > flatness but in an almost not noticeable level. Ugh... and I JUST busted my only bottle of Acryl flat black. It's off to the store, but I can't find it here. Will probably have to get some Humbrel till I get back to the states. Just adding to the list of disasters. Thank God I didn's get any on anything that matters. Rich >I use FolkArt Licorice or Plaid Black acrylic craft paint. It is flat as >flat can be. I can add Folkart Matte which will turn it to satin, or Future [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >> ps. I tried using Vallejo matt medium and matt varnish - thay do increase >> flatness but in an almost not noticeable level. > Some time ago I asked about Black color - I was looking for black that is > more 'flat' than Pactra black. I have bought Humbrol and Modelmaster flat [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > ps. I tried using Vallejo matt medium and matt varnish - thay do increase > flatness but in an almost not noticeable level. Have you ever tried the "old Masters' secret" of putting a little bit of talcum powder into the paint. It "mattes" it down very nicely.  SignatureGreg Heilers Registered Linux user #328317 - SlackWare 10.1 (2.6.10) ..... To alcohol! The cause of -- and solution to -- all of life's problems! -- Homer Simpson Homer vs. the Eighteenth Amendment > Some time ago I asked about Black color - I was looking for black that is > more 'flat' than Pactra black. I have bought Humbrol and Modelmaster flat [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > ps. I tried using Vallejo matt medium and matt varnish - thay do increase > flatness but in an almost not noticeable level. You are probably putting the paint on too wet. Flat paints can make a semi-gloss surface if applied too wet. You must make quite dry coats. Likewise, gloss paints can be applied semi-gloss with a dry coat. It takes a very wet coat to get a true gloss. >I have wheels painted with Tamiya olive drab which is beautifully flat. I >try to paints the rubber and it outshines the olive drab. There are two alternatives. The cheap one is from the crafts section of the dollar store. At 99 cents their acrylic black is as good if not better than hobby acrylics. I love the covering power of their white acrylic paint too. The best black for tires is the artists tube acrylics. It has just the right dull "sheen" of new rubber and looks like rubber too. About $5 should get you a tube and it lasts just about forever. Testors Model Master is FLAT. I've also used Humbrol and it is also flat. I have noticed, though, that you have to MIX the paint thouroughlly if not you'll get SATIN instead of FLAT Hope this helps Jose > Some time ago I asked about Black color - I was looking for black that is > more 'flat' than Pactra black. I have bought Humbrol and Modelmaster flat [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > ps. I tried using Vallejo matt medium and matt varnish - thay do increase > flatness but in an almost not noticeable level. > Testors Model Master is FLAT. I've also used Humbrol and it is also flat. > I have noticed, though, that you have to MIX the paint thouroughlly if not > you'll get SATIN instead of FLAT > Hope this helps > Jose I did shake it for about 5 minutes. I might also try using a stick. MM and H is not flat when I compare it with Tamiya Olive drab which I used for wheels. Also Revell enamel black is much more flat but it's a different story since it's different paint type. No matter what the angle I look at them the wheels appear olive drab. But the black 'rubber' appears black only on certain angles. I will try using a stick for 5 minutes than shake for 5 minutes. Thanks Maciek > MM and H is not flat when I compare it with Tamiya Olive drab which I used > for wheels. Also Revell enamel black is much more flat but it's a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Thanks > Maciek But remember.. no black is a true black. Try mixing a little red.... or even the OD in with it. Tires often have a little more gray in color. Unless brand new, then they do have a little more semi-gloss on the side of flat sheen. And this will appear different too, as you noticed, at different angles. Mixing... I thin I saw it here or in FSM.... I picked up a 1euro coffee frother wonder toy at Ikea recently. Looks like any you might find in a sharper image (at 20 times the price). It runs on two AA batteries and has a small "whisk" at the bottom. I cut that part off leaving an L shaped hook. With both batteries I just get bubbles. But I jumped the second battery, now use only one, and it is perfect. A little less torque, but almos magic. And I don't get paint on the threads like I do from shaking. Rich >> MM and H is not flat when I compare it with Tamiya Olive drab which I >> used for wheels. Also Revell enamel black is much more flat but it's a [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Rich The Badger is like $10, is properly set for speed and the mixer is a neat little circular blade with small "blades" bent up around the circumference. It really pulls the paint off the bottom and blends it very smooth. Really it is a "must have". Frank >> Testors Model Master is FLAT. I've also used Humbrol and it is also flat. >> I have noticed, though, that you have to MIX the paint thouroughlly if not [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > the black 'rubber' appears black only on certain angles. > I will try using a stick for 5 minutes than shake for 5 minutes. Mixing the paint thoroughly is important with matt paints, to get the matting agent completely mixed in and evenly distributed. It tends to clump at the bottom of the tin quite quickly. I've found that shaking on its own is often not enough. I use a wire hook, triangular so that the bottom of the tin is well scraped, in my Minicraft 12v drill. I run this from a little variable-voltage supply and can turn it down so that it runs slowly, and is ideal for stirring paint well. It also helps me to cut plastic rather than melting it with drills, cutters and sanding drums :-) Others have suggested putting a couple of pieces of lead shot or bb's into each paint tin, which greatly increases the effectiveness of shaking the tin. Somebody said that they taped each tin to an orbital sander and gave it five minutes vibro-massage: I would be too worried about the lid coming off. Others have suggested putting a couple of pieces of lead shot or bb's > into each paint tin, which greatly increases the effectiveness of > shaking the tin. Somebody said that they taped each tin to an orbital > sander and gave it five minutes vibro-massage: I would be too worried > about the lid coming off. BBs are good but I prefer small nuts from computer bolts. They get right into the side of the container. It's important to make sure your lid is tight; I give those infernal tinlets an extra whack with a hammer and post. A zip lock bag is extra insurace. Small electrical sanders don't seem to do the job; it's got to be a sizable one. I'm using a vibratory shell cleaner at the moment. Works great, five minutes and most paint is creamy smooth and ready for painting! I've thought about finding a way to attach them to the A-arm of my vehicle but that's too much work. hth The Keeper >>Testors Model Master is FLAT. I've also used Humbrol and it is also flat. >>I have noticed, though, that you have to MIX the paint thouroughlly if not [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Thanks > Maciek How are you applying it- airbrush or bristle brush? 1. I think one sometimes gets a bit more sheen with black than with other colors, perhaps because of the nature of the specific pigment used. 2. Why don't you just use some clear flat to get the black as flat as you want it? Polly Scale flat, for example, will give you a real, dead flat and can be brushed on if you don't want to change the flatness of the hub color as well. 3 FWIW, I like an off-black much better for tires. I use Polly Scale Grimy Black, which is basically a very dark gray; you could certainly mix something yourself. German RLM 66 also works well for convincing tire color. Pip Moss > I did shake it for about 5 minutes. I might also try using a stick. > MM and H is not flat when I compare it with Tamiya Olive drab which I used [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Thanks > Maciek >> Testors Model Master is FLAT. I've also used Humbrol and it is also >> flat. I have noticed, though, that you have to MIX the paint [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Thanks > Maciek FWIW. I have the Hobart paint shaker and the Badger battery operated stirrer. They seem gimmicky but they work great. I know Squadron has them and your LHS may have or be able to get them, too. Frank >>Testors Model Master is FLAT. I've also used Humbrol and it is also flat. >>I have noticed, though, that you have to MIX the paint thouroughlly if not [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Thanks > Maciek If you're looking for a good tire color from Model Master, try thier Aircraft Interior Black. A sort of dark-graphite color, just flat enough, very smooth finish when airbrushed...VERY nice convincing color for aircraft tires. Signature- Rufus Sorry but the combination of shaking, stirring for quite a lot of minutes, shaking again make no difference. The flatness of ModelMaster flat black is still the same. Not enough flat for me. I will now try to use flat bases you recommended - defferent than Vallejo that I have already used (Vallejo matte medium didn't help as much as I need). Thanks, Maciek > Sorry but the combination of shaking, stirring for quite a lot of minutes, > shaking again make no difference. The flatness of ModelMaster flat black is [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Thanks, > Maciek How are you applying it? Brush or airbrush (or rattle can)? If airbrush, try a higher pressure. In any case, use a very dry coat. Flat black applied wet will be semi-gloss. > Sorry but the combination of shaking, stirring for quite a lot of minutes, > shaking again make no difference. The flatness of ModelMaster flat black is > still the same. Not enough flat for me. > I will now try to use flat bases you recommended - defferent than Vallejo > that I have already used (Vallejo matte medium didn't help as much as I > need). Are you willing to try enamels? I've found that Xtracolor Flat Varnish, applied with my trusty old Badger 150, gets me a very flat finish, on the occasions I have wanted it. > Are you willing to try enamels? I've found that Xtracolor Flat Varnish, > applied with my trusty old Badger 150, gets me a very flat finish, on the > occasions I have wanted it. I did try enamels - excellent flat I admit but I can't stand the smell. I can't imagine using them in winter. Thanks Maciek >> Are you willing to try enamels? I've found that Xtracolor Flat Varnish, >> applied with my trusty old Badger 150, gets me a very flat finish, on the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Thanks > Maciek If you desire to use acrylics, check out Gunze-Sangyo Flat Black #012, or Tamiya XF-1 Flat black. I experimented with these to make a sludge wash. I have a tin of humbrol, but have not opened it. I prefer enamels and have had great results with Model Master #2040 (aircraft) "Interior Black" FS37031. MM1749 "Flat Black" FS37038 looks different, reference the FS numbers. I don't know that it's accurate to say that one is "flatter" than the other. The difference is very, very subtle. FWIW, I have been using more Interior Black mm2040 and less Flat Black mm1749. As for fumes, I have a big box fan in the window above the airbrush area. I use a 2 liter plastic soda bottle loaded with rolled up paper towels and (sorry fish) aquarium charcoal. I call it my purge bottle, as I use it to spray lacquer thinner and or mineral spirits to clean the airbrush. No fumes, no bother. HTH Bruce As I mentioned in an earlier posting, Polly Scale makes an excellent clear flat, and it's acrylic. Although designed to spray, you can easily brush it on if, for example, you want the tires to be flatter than the hubs. Pip Moss >> Are you willing to try enamels? I've found that Xtracolor Flat Varnish, >> applied with my trusty old Badger 150, gets me a very flat finish, on the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Thanks > Maciek |
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