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C-130 in the latest issue of FineScale Modeler Magazine

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Peter W. - 12 Jan 2006 06:07 GMT
It is featured on the cover and there is a nice article about it
inside.  All the detail is absolutely stunning!
Builder must be one crazy dude to pull such a feat.

But ever since I laid my eyes on the cover, something has bothered me
about that model.
I figured it out. It has incredibly deep and dark rescribed panel
lines!  And they all have a darker shaded edges to boot.    It makes
the entire aircraft looks more like a technical drawing than a real
airplane.

IMO, it would have looked so much better with subtle panel lines (maybe
just drawn with a sharp pencil). Strange how someone can have such
incredible talent and patience to build a highly detailed model and
then then make a caricature of it.  Unless the builder wanted it to
look this way...  Artistic license?

If that model had subtle panel lines it could probably pass for a real
aircraft in photographs.

I'm also not in a habit of criticizing other peoples work, but this one
really bothered me.

I'm also not an expert on C-130s or aircraft in general, but I've
looked at bunch of C-130 pictures on the web and none had such
pronunced panel lines.

What do you all think?

Peteski
Al Superczynski - 12 Jan 2006 06:23 GMT
>What do you all think?

    I think it's an incredibly well-built and detailed model spoiled
by a poorly-conceived finish.  But that's just my opinion and if the
builder is happy with it more power to him.

    That said, while it didn't get my Peoples' Choice vote I might
well have voted with the judges in its contest category.  Interesting
dilemma, isn't it?
Signature

Al Superczynski, MFE, IPMS/USA #3795, continuous since 1968

My "From" address is munged - use 'modeleral (at) swbell (dot) net' to respond via email.

Check out my want lists and eBay listings at "Al's Place":
http://www.network54.com/realm/modeleral/
"Build what YOU like, the way YOU want to,
and the critics will flame you every time."

Stephen Tontoni - 12 Jan 2006 07:31 GMT
-- snippage ---

> What do you all think?
>
> Peteski

It's a fantastic model but the panel lines are over-emphasized, in my
opinion. He did what scores points at the shows; black panel lines are
popular. I also don't want to belittle his effort in any way at all.
It's a fabulous, fabulous model. I just would have done the panel lines
differently.

Reminds me of when I brought my brother to a show. He confronted an
expert modeler and asked him why his panel lines were black when they
wouldn't be on the prototype. Of course, I was mortified... but the
expert, unshaken, said "it's what the judges like". Talk about Kodak
moment.

--- Tontoni
Kurt Laughlin - 13 Jan 2006 03:34 GMT
> It's a fantastic model but the panel lines are over-emphasized, in my
> opinion. He did what scores points at the shows; black panel lines are
> popular.

And all the guts are hanging out.  (Re: a previous thread about what wins at
IPMS shows)

KL
Ron Smith - 12 Jan 2006 08:45 GMT
> But ever since I laid my eyes on the cover, something has bothered me
> about that model.
> I figured it out. It has incredibly deep and dark rescribed panel
> lines!  And they all have a darker shaded edges to boot.    It makes
> the entire aircraft looks more like a technical drawing than a real
> airplane.

It's a drag queen as far as finish goes. It looks like a 3-D version of
a rendered architectural drawing. Nice build, horrid over application of
makeup.
Ray S. & Nayda Katzaman - 12 Jan 2006 16:39 GMT
> It is featured on the cover and there is a nice article about it
> inside.  All the detail is absolutely stunning!
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> Peteski

Second time around for this thread.  I did not comment on the first time
around, but this time I have to put my 2 cents into the kitty.

Peteski, you said it very well in that the modeler took artistic license
with this kit.  The way I figure it, he bought it with his money, his
paints, and used his art to build and paint it.  So who are we to say that
and what he wanted to do is inappropriate.  There are so many more models
out there that look like crap and they walk off with first place.  At least
this modeler has the ability to build an excellent model and used the
paints - air brush - in a manner that many of us only dream of.

Think of model ship builders of old,  depending on where they spent most of
their time at sea was how they depicted and detailed the ship they built.
Some ships had oversized sails, so where did they spend their time.  While
others had oversized hulls, guns, decks, etc.  It is a matter of
perspective, and he who owns the kit does what he wants with it.  That
brings to my mind one of the past contest here in Austin, one of the car
club guys decided to NASCARize a German Panther tank.  The armor guys were
not too thrilled when they saw the sacrilege done on one of their subjects,
and moved the Number 24 tank out of the armor section into the
miscellaneous.  Not too much tolerance shown there.

Soap box mode off.

Ray
Austin, TX
===
Ron Smith - 12 Jan 2006 18:37 GMT
> brings to my mind one of the past contest here in Austin, one of the car
> club guys decided to NASCARize a German Panther tank.  The armor guys were
> not too thrilled when they saw the sacrilege done on one of their subjects,
> and moved the Number 24 tank out of the armor section into the
> miscellaneous.  Not too much tolerance shown there.

Under IPMS rules markings determine category and a Panther in NASCAR
markings does not go in military armor. It could very well be the judges
moved it to the best fit category based on its markings.
WmB - 12 Jan 2006 19:25 GMT
>> brings to my mind one of the past contest here in Austin, one of the car
>> club guys decided to NASCARize a German Panther tank.  The armor guys
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> markings does not go in military armor. It could very well be the judges
> moved it to the best fit category based on its markings.

I imagine that many great trends start off in the miscellanous column.  If
it catches on more  people follow and it grows to a point that it becomes
it's own category or field of interest.  Recall the lines that have been
drawn over diorama vs static display, OOB vs tricked out, open turret  vs
closed turret, yada yada yada.

Given all that, I'd be REALLY surprised to see NASCAR markings on 1/35th
armor sweep thru the clubs anytime soon as the hottest new thing. Now NFL
markings,  yeah... ;-)

About that C-130 - is that the one that was posted on here a few months ago
and discussed a little? If it's the same one, yeah, beautiful build - but
overdone panel lines to the nth order.

WmB
Count DeMoney - 12 Jan 2006 20:52 GMT
It kinda makes me wonder (because I have never attended one of those
IPMS events, do they add or deduct points for panty lines on all those
new Japanese Girlie Models? (:>
maiesm72@netscape.com - 12 Jan 2006 20:58 GMT
It's very Verlinden.

Tom
frank - 13 Jan 2006 00:36 GMT
I remember the 1/48 B-32 from a few years ago. ISTR the builder used
1/72 B--36, 1/48 B-24 & B-29 parts to build it, yet it was considered a
conversion of the 1/72 B-36, not a scratchbuild. I feel that is way out
of line.
Peter W. - 13 Jan 2006 05:33 GMT
Like I sais - I'm not an aircraft (or military) expert. I hang out more
with the automotive  model crowd.  But I do learn lots of techniques
from reading  FSM, this newsgroup and other  non car related sites.

But that C-130 just just didn't look right to me.  And it looks like it
wasn't just me.  But if we chalk this to "artistic license" - so be it.

I like that NASCAR tank idea!  Too bad that the military show circuit
does not take lightly to such ventures.  This hobby is supposed to be
fun, ain't it?

Couple of years ago I built a model of a "Dung Beetle",  which was a
combination of a Heller's model of an insect and a 1:43 scale VW
Beetle.  It won the Most Humorous award in a local model car show.
Maybe car guys are more forgiving ...

BTW, I din't realize that this subject was already discussed here. I
should have searched the archives...

Peteski
Ron Smith - 13 Jan 2006 05:54 GMT
> I like that NASCAR tank idea!  Too bad that the military show circuit
> does not take lightly to such ventures.  This hobby is supposed to be
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Beetle.  It won the Most Humorous award in a local model car show.
> Maybe car guys are more forgiving ...

The NASCAR tank got put in one of two categories it belonged in per IPMS
rules.....miscellaneous or humorous, it did not and never will belong in
 the miltary AFV category. Although if you car guys have a NASCAR
category it might fit there...........
maiesm72@netscape.com - 13 Jan 2006 20:50 GMT
A few years ago one of our local guys did the then new Tamiya tank
transporter and a British MBT in Spice Girls paint scheme.

Brought out many a chuckle.

Tom
Peter W. - 14 Jan 2006 05:53 GMT
Yes, while there isn't a specific NASCAR category, we have several
sports and race categories where it  coudl be entered.  :-)

Peteski
Ron Smith - 14 Jan 2006 06:05 GMT
> Yes, while there isn't a specific NASCAR category, we have several
> sports and race categories where it  coudl be entered.  :-)

I knew you'd get it...;)
Art Murray - 13 Jan 2006 01:08 GMT
It is an incredibly well-built and well-detailed model.

That being said, when I saw it in Atlanta this summer, I had the same
impression of over-done panel lines.  They appear even darker in person than
they do in FSM.  It is legitimate criticism.

However, I have never nor will I ever approach the quality of construction
and the depth of committment that the model represents.

Art

> It is featured on the cover and there is a nice article about it
> inside.  All the detail is absolutely stunning!
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> Peteski
Francis X. Kranick, Jr. - 13 Jan 2006 02:06 GMT
(snip)

> I'm also not in a habit of criticizing other peoples work, but this one
> really bothered me.

    I wouldn't characterize it at criticism - more of an observation.  That
said, I agree and there was some talk in Atlanta among other folks I met
that it was indeed overdone.  I feel it's well overdone and a cursory
look at Hercules images in a quick Google search will show truer
appearances.

> I'm also not an expert on C-130s or aircraft in general, but I've
> looked at bunch of C-130 pictures on the web and none had such
> pronunced panel lines.

    Again, I concur but the rest of the model was top-notch.  Stunningly
top-notch.  In 1/72nd, the model is still big but it's still 1/72nd to
me - kudos to Mr. Voitech.  I wish I had the ability to do similar work
in 1/48th as I have five Italeri Herky kits to build...
    I know, I know...  Don't say it...

Frank Kranick
Norm Filer - 13 Jan 2006 05:11 GMT
This thread seems to have a life of its own.  It was beat to death the last
time it came up and I still have not heard anyone address anything of
significance other than the dislike of the weathering and an unasked
question about why it won.

I would suggest that a good starting point for a real objective view  would
be the IPMS National Competition Handbook.  You can view and download it at;

http://www.ipmsusa.org/CH_index.html

If you go to the section about judging aircraft you will find a lot of
"construction" type criteria such as alignment, seams, lack of glue joints
and things like that.  These, as would be expected at this level of
competition, weed out the field pretty fast.

Accuracy of the paint is addressed by the following:

"Different operating environments can change colors in different ways. All
paints fade from the effects of weather and sunlight, and viewing distance
alone can change the look of virtually any color. Poor initial application
and subsequent maintenance compound these problems. Therefore, aside from
gross inaccuracies such as a light green "Red Arrows" aircraft, color shades
should not be used to determine a model's accuracy or lack thereof."

May I suggest that the amount of flawless scratchbuilding on the engines and
interior, coupled with the extensive exterior work may have lead the judges
to the conclusion that it was the best model on the table?

I was not able to attend that convention, but those whose opinions I respect
that did attend have said they agree with the judges.

Norm
Al Superczynski - 13 Jan 2006 05:22 GMT
>May I suggest that the amount of flawless scratchbuilding on the engines and
>interior, coupled with the extensive exterior work may have lead the judges
>to the conclusion that it was the best model on the table?

    Not just that - it was the quality of the work that won the
award, and I agree.

>I was not able to attend that convention, but those whose opinions I respect
>that did attend have said they agree with the judges.

    I agree with the judges' decision but that model didn't get my
People's Choice vote, nor would any with a similar finish.
Signature

Al Superczynski, MFE, IPMS/USA #3795, continuous since 1968

My "From" address is munged - use 'modeleral (at) swbell (dot) net' to respond via email.

Check out my want lists and eBay listings at "Al's Place":
http://www.network54.com/realm/modeleral/
"Build what YOU like, the way YOU want to,
and the critics will flame you every time."

Peter W. - 13 Jan 2006 05:45 GMT
Well, I started this thread (unaware of previous comments) and as you
said, it now took a life of its own... I only commented on the overall
high quality of the model and about grossly overdone panel lines.  No
contest or judging was mentioned.

So, I'm not responsible... :-)  But I'm happy that my opinion is in
line with others.

And I do think that it is a superbly detailed model (nothing that I
would ever even attempt to build).

Peteski
Art Murray - 14 Jan 2006 00:37 GMT
Peter,

Don't worry about it. I missed the thread the first time around. I was glad
to be able to view it the second time around.  Anyway, where does it say we
can't discuss something twice, three times, four times, ad naseum?

Art

> Well, I started this thread (unaware of previous comments) and as you
> said, it now took a life of its own... I only commented on the overall
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Peteski
Peter W. - 14 Jan 2006 06:07 GMT
Actually, I no longer feel bad - I did several Google searches of this
group and found no previous mention of Mr. Voitech's Gunship model.
Must be a "hidden thread" :-)

Or, it could be me...

Peteski
Ron Smith - 14 Jan 2006 08:23 GMT
> Actually, I no longer feel bad - I did several Google searches of this
> group and found no previous mention of Mr. Voitech's Gunship model.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Peteski

Most likely a similar thread about drag queens.
Bruce Apple - 14 Jan 2006 16:27 GMT
>> Actually, I no longer feel bad - I did several Google searches of this
>> group and found no previous mention of Mr. Voitech's Gunship model.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software.
> http://www.avast.com

I'm holding out for the counter rotating props <G>.
BA

---
avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
Virus Database (VPS): 0602-4, 01/14/2006
Tested on: 1/14/2006 11:27:50 AM
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http://www.avast.com
frank - 15 Jan 2006 02:37 GMT
C/R propson what?
frank - 15 Jan 2006 02:37 GMT
C/R props on what?
Al Superczynski - 15 Jan 2006 03:15 GMT
>...props on what?

    Nipples...
WmB - 14 Jan 2006 19:50 GMT
> Actually, I no longer feel bad - I did several Google searches of this
> group and found no previous mention of Mr. Voitech's Gunship model.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Peteski

I wouldn't let it gnaw at you for any reason - even if I found a 1000msg
thread on the subject from last week.  As before  (and I assure you this
model came up for discussion recently) the consensus was pretty much the
same this time around too - a beautiful, excellent build worthy of being a
show winner - plagued by unrealistic panel lines that unfortunately in some
circles, are the style currently favored by some.

I checked Google -  the discussion was 10/31/05  under the header "Herk".
But like I said, big deal - if one person missed it, others did too. TV has
reruns so can we. Now the casual RMSer has two discussions from which to
mine.  And if between the two threads it prevents one modeller from applying
comic relief  to their otherwise incredbile build - than it was  well worth
the trouble.

WmB
Jack Bohn - 15 Jan 2006 12:08 GMT
>And if between the two threads it prevents one modeller from applying
>comic relief  to their otherwise incredbile build - than it was  well worth
>the trouble.

Wouldn't that be what you'd call grossly overdone _raised_ panel
lines?  "Comic relief."

Signature

-Jack

Ron Smith - 13 Jan 2006 05:51 GMT
> May I suggest that the amount of flawless scratchbuilding on the engines and
> interior, coupled with the extensive exterior work may have lead the judges
> to the conclusion that it was the best model on the table?

I'm not arguing the build. In all honesty I'd rather see it unpainted
than tarted up like a shemale hooker with troweled on makeup on 14th ST.
in DC......
Peter W. - 14 Jan 2006 05:57 GMT
Now, this visual made me chuckle. Especially when I visualized  that
said hooker with small spinning propellers attached to where paisties
woud normally be...

A twin-prop shemale hooker with a rather large tail...  :-)

Peteski
Ron Smith - 14 Jan 2006 06:06 GMT
> Now, this visual made me chuckle. Especially when I visualized  that
> said hooker with small spinning propellers attached to where paisties
> woud normally be...
>
> A twin-prop shemale hooker with a rather large tail...  :-)

 An dit accurately describes it too.......
Mad Modeller - 13 Jan 2006 05:13 GMT
I haven't seen the cover in question yet but I have seen C-130s up close
and not a lot of panel lines stand out.  Most of the ones I've seen are
big smooth grey birds of the Pa. ANG based at Harrisburg.

Bill Banaszak, MFE Sr.
Stephen Tontoni - 13 Jan 2006 05:16 GMT
> I haven't seen the cover in question yet but I have seen C-130s up close
> and not a lot of panel lines stand out.  Most of the ones I've seen are
> big smooth grey birds of the Pa. ANG based at Harrisburg.
>
> Bill Banaszak, MFE Sr.

You can see the model by following this link:
http://www.finescale.com/fsm/

Regarding "should it have won", it's not about the panel lines etc,
unless it were a dead-tie with another model on the table. Then artistic
interpretation would come into play. That rarely does, since most models
have actual flaws that can be nit-picked.

So the question isn't about winning or not, as much as the realism of
the paint job.

--- Tontoni
William H. Shuey - 13 Jan 2006 18:44 GMT
> I haven't seen the cover in question yet but I have seen C-130s up close
> and not a lot of panel lines stand out.  Most of the ones I've seen are
> big smooth grey birds of the Pa. ANG based at Harrisburg.
>
> Bill Banaszak, MFE Sr.

Or that Egyptian Air Force C-130 that shows up at the cargo terminal at
Baltimore-Washington International regularly. Gorgeous desert camo and
very smooth.

                            Bill Shuey
 
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