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Question: Cast resin modeling - is this what I should expect???

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BD - 02 Mar 2006 02:22 GMT
Hi, all.

I recently bought a cast resin model of a gun (the M41a Pulse Rifle
from Aliens.

Paid a pretty penny for it, too.

When it showed up, I was a little surprised. Most of the pieces are
okay, but some of the 'thinner' ones are slightly warped, meaning I'll
likely need to gently take a heat gun to get them perfect. TONS of
burrs from the casting, too - I'll need to do a lot of cleanup on the
pieces. Plus, some of the more 'delicate' pieces are broken - I'm sure
I can fix them or fabricate replacements, but that kind of bugs me...
and not all the parts are there! I don't see any triggers! This thing
should have two triggers and I shouldn't have to sculpt them from
scratch.

It's not a wreck ot anything, but the whole thing is a lot less refined
than I expected to find it when I unpacked it. I've never done this
kind of cast model before, so I'm not sure if I've been taken or not.
The burrs don't really bug me, the 'straightening' required on some of
the parts I can forgive, and I can accept _some_ minor shipping damage
- but all that together, combined with the missing triggers is kind of
much.

Thoughts?

Thanks!!
e - 02 Mar 2006 04:11 GMT
>Hi, all.
>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
>Thanks!!

send it back. don't buy crap.
Norm Filer - 02 Mar 2006 06:58 GMT
This stuff is often called "garage kits".  Now you know why.

There are a lot of people out there more interested in taking your money
than delivering value for what you paid.  It is often impossible to actually
lay hands on some of these items prior to laying out your cash, but I still
think that unless you have actually seen the product, or have talked with
someone whose opinions you trust, who has, your better off keeping your
money in your pocket.

Like someone else suggested, I would attempt to return it if you are not
satisfied.  Chances are pretty good that you may end up with nothing and
still be out the money, but maybe this guy will actually return your money.
If you don't tell him you don't like his product he might just think he is
doing good stuff.

Quality resin work is not as simple as many would have you believe.  There
sure is a lot of junk out there.

Norm
BD - 02 Mar 2006 12:12 GMT
>Chances are pretty good that you may end up with nothing and still be out the money,

Well, I doubt that at this point - this WAS an Ebay sale, and any Ebay
vendor should know the implications of scathing feedback and a buyer
pursuing Buyer Protection options. The seller also has a good feedback
record, and does not strike me as a one-off out to rip someone off.
Rusty White - 02 Mar 2006 07:11 GMT
> Hi, all.
>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> Thanks!!

It looks like this is more of a customer service issue than anything
else.  Being in the business I can tell you that some of the things you
described are pretty typical from cast resin kits.   Some flash, minor
warpage, and resulting clean up of parts have to be expected, but not
to the point where the parts can't be easily repaired and used.  Resin
absorbs moisture from the air which causes some warpage and there is
just no way around it.  A quick dip in boiling water should easily
repair any warped parts.

However, broken parts regardless of how delicate they are, shouldn't
(they sometimes do because sh*t happens) happen because if the shipper
(the manufacturer) would have packaged it properly, breaks should
seldom occur.

Missing parts also happen.  Hell, we are all human and the manufacturer
should be willing to replace them.  Same goes for broken or poorly cast
parts.  The manufacturer should replace them if you send the defective
parts to them to back your claim.

Resin kits aren't cheap and you should expect a good product and good
customer service if needed.  Replacing the whole kit unless it's just
absolute unusable garbage, is a bit much to ask, but asking for
replacement parts isn't (especially if you send them the defects).  I
would contact the manufacturer, explain the problem.  I think you'll
find they are understanding about stuff like that.  FWIW

Rusty White
Flagship Models Inc.
flagshipmodels.com
BD - 02 Mar 2006 12:21 GMT
>Being in the business I can tell you that some of the things you described are pretty typical from cast resin kits.

Rusty:

Yes, I agree with all of your points. The flash in this case kind of
surprises me though - one some of the bulkier pieces I'm going to have
to sand off over 1/8" of thick tough resin in order for the parts to
fit properly and look correct. I can kind of see how the moulding
process was done, though - it looks to have been cast without
particular care to trim the flash at the time of manufacture.

As well, the warping does make some sense, especially if the
deformation happened just after casting. I've already taken a heat gun
to some of the parts, and straightening them out will not be a problem
- the stuff takes on a consistency of stiff clay once it's warm.

But given the fact that some of the seller's Ebay feedback explicitly
pointed out "excellent packing", I am really surprised here. I received
a 2'x2'x1' box, filled with shredded newspaper - the resin pieces were
stuffed all together in the middle at the bottom (no separate bubble
wrap, no apparent attempt to keep the pieces from bumping during
shipping). Small chips of resin that had settled in the bottom of the
box are very likely the ones that snapped off the broken areas. Not
impressed.

As well - this is a _gun_ model. You'd think that they'd make sure the
triggers were there.

So, we'll see how the seller handles it - I didn't buy directly from
the manufacturer, so I'm not expecting replacement/ spare parts to be
on hand. Should prove interesting.

Thanks!
Rusty White - 02 Mar 2006 16:03 GMT
I haven't seen the parts you speak of, but there will be thick resin on
one area of all of the parts  to deal with.  This is what we call the
"gate".  The larger the part, the larger and thicker the gate.  The
gate is where the resin is poured into the mold.  Being the entry point
for all the resin, there has to be a sufficiently large opening for the
resin to be poured.  The thick part at the top is necessary to overfill
with some extra resin in the event there is some shrinkage.  The size
of the gate depends on several factors I won't into, but sometimes the
gate can be quite large and long.  I use a jig saw with a fine blade to
remove large gates.  Take care to stay away from the part and remove as
much of the gate as possible.

Now thick flash is not acceptable because that's just a sign of a
poorly cast part or molds that have reached the end of thier useful
life.  RTV (room temperature vulcanizing) rubber for molds is
EXPENSIVE.  Especially for large parts.  RTV rubber is what we use to
make the molds.  Some guys are just cheap bast*rds and won't replace
the molds when they should so the result is heavy flass and poor cast
detail and some angry customers.  One guy already mentioned the
importance of reading a review before buying a kit.  That's good advice
and could warn you of unscrupulous manufacturers who provide poor
customer service.

Even obvious parts can be easily left out of kits.  When I assemble the
parts for my kits to be bagged, if the phone rings, or someone asks me
a question, you would be suprised how easy it is to "lose your place"
in the order of things.  I have a "parts sheet" I use for each model
that has a picture of each part and the number needed for each.  I lay
the parts on each picture so I always know everything is ready for
bagging.  It may sound simplistic, but it works.  Unfortunately,
everyone has thier own system.  Some work well, some don't.

Just because you didn't buy the kit direct from the manufacturer
doesn't mean you aren't entitled to a complete kit.  That is unless you
purchased it "as is" from an individual.  That happens a LOT on eBay.
However, the manufacturer wouldn't know that, so he is still obligated
(IMHO) to replace the missing or broken parts.  If the seller promised
the kit to be complete and delivers less, then burn him with negative
feedback.  Can't blame the manufacturer because that idiot lost the
parts and screwed you.  On eBay the responsibility falls to the seller.
BUYER BEWARE.

Like you say, give the guy a chance and I'll bet he'll suprise you.
It's in his best interest to have his stuff out in the public and
satisfied customers, so word of mouth sells more kits.  I hope all
works out for you.

Rusty White
Flagship Models Inc.
flagshipmodels.com
BD - 02 Mar 2006 17:12 GMT
>BUYER BEWARE.

Rusty: I agree. And thanks for the outline on the process. Sounds like
anyone with some materials and a source mold can do this.

I'd considered a belt sander to remove the 'gate' from the larger
parts, as I don't have immediate access to other power tools. I do have
a friend with a bandsaw, so that might be worth the trip to his shop.

The flashing is generally very thing - paper thin. So that's not a
problem. I can clean it up with no worries. Little difference between
that and cleaning up the flashing on a 'commercial' plastic model.

What about 'pitting'? Is that typical? On some of the parts with sharp
edges, there are pits, which I would attribute to air bubbles left
during the pour. There are not many pits, and they are generally about
1mm in size. I can fill those with anything - epoxy, whatever. I only
ask because I'm not sure whether to consider the overall appearance of
this kit 'typical' or not.

As to the missing bits, I contacted the seller, and she (I believe it's
a gal who simply had this in storage for the past 20 years) was very
apologetic, and offered a full refund or a partial refund - and invited
other suggestions as I may see fit.

Given that I've paid duty on the thing and don't expect her to cover
THAT, I'll keep it. But since I have to repair 2 small pieces, and
fabricate triggers, I'm considering just asking for compensation to the
tune of the duty costs, or something similar. That would amount to
roughly 15% of the entire cost paid. Sounds a bit much, but I really do
feel this person should be penalized somewhat for just tossing all the
bits in a box stuffed with shredded paper, and letting them knock about
across the border. I feel that was just negligent.

BD
Rusty White - 02 Mar 2006 20:58 GMT
<<Rusty: I agree. And thanks for the outline on the process. Sounds
like anyone with some materials and a source mold can do this.>>

You're right.  Anyone can cast thier own parts or kits if they can
build a master pattern.  Like anything else, some people do it better
than others.

<<What about 'pitting'? Is that typical? On some of the parts with
sharp edges, there are pits, which I would attribute to air bubbles
left during the pour. There are not many pits, and they are generally
about 1mm in size. I can fill those with anything - epoxy, whatever. I
only ask because I'm not sure whether to consider the overall
appearance of this kit 'typical' or not.>>

I would say below average.  Lots of air bubbles is caused by several
things, but the caster not putting thier resin filled mold under
pressure in a pressure chamber is the biggest reason.  Most of the air
bubbles in resin castings are removed by putting it under 50lbs psi of
pressure.  This also greatly improves the cast details.  It really
sounds like one of those guys who doesn't use a pressure chamber.  You
don't have to use a pressure chamber, but you see the result when you
don't.

Air bubbles like s*it happens, but it doesn't have to happen
frequently.  I use a resin that is a crystal clear amber color so I can
see 99% of the air bubbles and I pick them out with a fine wire before
the resin sets. Between using a superior resin for casting, a pressure
chamber, and picking out the bubbles with a fine wire, VERY few air
bubbles should occur in the final product.  Plain and simple, the
casting process must be done with a little TLC to produce a good
product.

Rusty White
Flagship Models Inc.
flagshipmodels.com
BD - 03 Mar 2006 18:20 GMT
>Air bubbles like s*it happens, but it doesn't have to happen frequently.

Rusty - just a quick follow-up on the air bubbles question. I expect
I'm going to want to fill these things, as they are a bit distracting.
Initially I figured I'd just use some epoxy - it would certainly work,
but might not be the tidyest stuff in the world to work with in this
application. Is there anything else you might recommend that's cleaner
to work with, and would be useful for filling these bubble pits?

Thanks!

BD
Dennis - 04 Mar 2006 11:58 GMT
"BD" <bobby_dread@hotmail.com> wrote in news:1141410000.125171.289530
@t39g2000cwt.googlegroups.com:

>>Air bubbles like s*it happens, but it doesn't have to happen frequently.
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> BD

Hi BD,

use CA (cyano Acrylate) or superglue for the smaller pits.
for the larger pits you just fil them with CA and sprinkle some resin dust
over it.
Resin dust from grinding/sawing the casting blocks from the parts.

Instant filler and the excess is sanded away quite easily.

HTH

Dennis
Rusty White - 02 Mar 2006 21:02 GMT
<<I'd considered a belt sander to remove the 'gate' from the larger
parts, as I don't have immediate access to other power tools. I do have
a friend with a bandsaw, so that might be worth the trip to his shop.>>

A belt sander will work fine, but it puts out a LOT of resin dust that
settles on everything.  Be SURE to wear a mask when using it.  That's
why I use a hand held jig saw.  You can get them cheap and they come in
handy for stuff like this.

Rusty White
Flagship Models Inc.
flagshipmodels.com
BD - 02 Mar 2006 21:23 GMT
-but it puts out a LOT of resin dust that settles on everything.

Ohh, I'm used to dust. I'm the only guy I know who built an entire
acoustic guitar from scratch in an apartment. Ebony dust is
particularly nasty. ;-))
z - 04 Mar 2006 03:13 GMT
> But given the fact that some of the seller's Ebay feedback explicitly
> pointed out "excellent packing", I am really surprised here. I received
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> box are very likely the ones that snapped off the broken areas. Not
> impressed.

Grr...
Now you've got me started. What's with the shipping so many ebay
sellers do? I've had one where they just slapped an address label on a
kit box sealed with a couple of pieces of scotch tape and mailed it!
Aside from such cases (actually, it stood up amazingly well, hats off
the PO for that one) is it that hard for folks to
1) if the box is open either stick the loose parts inside into a
baggie, stick the whole box into a baggie, or tape or saran wrap the
thing so that the tiny parts and wire axles and such don't climb
through the little cracks like they like to do and hide in the
styrofoam peanuts.
2) put some sort of wrapping around a built kit sitting in styrofoam
peanuts. Or else just beadblast the built kit before they ship it to
eliminate the uncertainty.
3) realize that one layer of newspaper does not constitute padding.
4) maybe put a bag around a built kit sitting in shredded paper, so I
don't have to go fishing for mirrors?

I realize that everybody puts some disclaimer in their ad to the tune
of damage may occur in shipping, but they all seem to claim that they
do their best to pack. If that were the case, I'd understand, but half
of the sellers seem to be doing their best to break and/or lose parts,
and I don't see why. Yeah, I suppose I should either demand a refund or
slam them in the feedback, but that's sort of locking the barn door
after the barn burned down as far as getting that nice looking item
advertised; it's gone forever now, even if I do get the satisfaction of
nasty feedback. And of course then there's the issue of getting nasty
feedback in revenge for that, but that's another story.

Anyway, that's why i buy on ebay less these days.

PS a hint: when I'm moved to provide good feedback, if your name is
John Smith and your email is Frosty@aol.com and your ebay name is lunie
and your listing is titled "Chevy Model" and you haven't put any
indication of what the listing number is or your ebay name is or your
email is anywhere in or on the box and you never sent me an email with
information in it that I can use to connect the dots and I happen to be
buying a bunch of Chevies that week, don't be too surprised if my
detective work fails to figure out who I should be giving the feedback
to for this particular chevy when I open the box. I'm just saying.
Mad-Modeller - 04 Mar 2006 09:46 GMT
Plastic zip-lock baggies work very well for most built-ups.

Bill Banaszak, MFE Sr.
z - 06 Mar 2006 20:49 GMT
> Plastic zip-lock baggies work very well for most built-ups.

I'm at the state where anybody who's kind enough to put the builtup in
an actual ziplock bag gets overflowing positive feedback from me.
Reasonably happy even if they use an old plastic supermarket bag with
holes in it. Or even just newspaper wrapped up enough so the pieces
that get broken off don't fall out.

> Bill Banaszak, MFE Sr.
Don Stauffer - 02 Mar 2006 15:09 GMT
Most resin casting is a cottage industry.  The results vary WIDELY.  I
am not familiar with that specific firm.  Some resin detail stuff is
exquisite, some is junk.  Try to ask around before you purchase from a
firm you don't know.

> Hi, all.
>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> Thanks!!
z - 04 Mar 2006 02:55 GMT
> Hi, all.
>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> Thanks!!

Some are good, some not so good. Since they tend to sell things that
are available anywhere else, there isn't a lot of invisible hand of the
market. Same goes for price.

There's two variables; the skill of the manufacturer, and their
willingness to sell their failures.
 
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