Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion Groups
General
ModelsRailroadsRockets
Radio Controlled
Air ModelsHelicoptersLand ModelsWater Models
ModelGeeks.com
Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map

Model Forum / General / Models / May 2006



Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Model Kit Reviews -- Observations and Comments

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
AMPSOne@aol.com - 17 May 2006 02:17 GMT
Looking at some of the newsgroups and discussion groups elsewhere,
there seems to be a grave misunderstanding on the purpose and concept
of model reviews. To that end, let me present my own philosophy and
criteria.

Bottom line: Should I buy it? Can it build up as what it says it is?
And will I be happy with it? That's what a review should say!

First off, the review should be for the widest group of modelers, not a
narrow few. It should convey what the kit purports to represent, its
breakdown by materials and parts numbers (this reflects complexity;
there is a big difference between a kid's knock-down kit from
Wal-Mart with 15 parts and a full-up Tiger I with over 1,300 parts, and
the prospective buyer should know that going in), probably retail
price, and a photo of at least the box art to show which kit you are
describing.

Sprue shots are nice, but few of us have the time to do a full-up photo
shoot of all of the bits; depending upon your "day job" and amount
of material to review, you may not be able to do even a box-art
"glamour" shot. The review should be oriented at the intermediate
level modeler, one who has a basic understanding of modeling skills and
the use of after-market items like resin, turned barrels, track sets,
etched metal parts, and finishing techniques. But it should not play to
what should be considered advanced modelers, as many seem to think;
many "advanced" modelers usually have little if any knowledge about
more than one or two vehicles, and most of them are usually wrong about
many of the points they claim to have expertise in. (These are the ones
derisively referred to as "experten" on modeling web sites.)

Second, shapes, sizes, basic parts and dimensions are important, but
only up to a point. Most people are not really interested if vehicle X
has only twelve bolts vice thirteen, and they are right-hand thread
vice left-hand, so this is the worst travesty to be foisted off on the
public since Piltdown Man, etc. If you are really that concerned,
that's what research is for (yours, not mine) and if concerned
"Real Modelers" fix things; "Kit Builders" don't. There's
nothing wrong with just building kits, but if that's all you want to
do then don't bother the rest of us with more psychobabble about why
the designers of kit X deserve to be hung, drawn and quartered as the
clean-out openings are slightly oval.

Third, basic accuracy is fine, and what is presented should be correct.
If the model has one particular type of track, it should be in the kit
for that model of the vehicle. If it mounts twin 7.62mm machine guns on
the cupola, ditto. Tools should have straps as they sure don't just
stick on by themselves! Fine details should be, well, fine; but recall
that injection molding plastic has its limits. If the model is a US
vehicle with stars, bumper codes, serial numbers and a name or
stenciling, it should be there within limits (e.g. if you can't see
it on the real vehicle at 35 feet it doesn't matter on a 1/35 scale
model.) But there's no excuse for a half-done job. Suggested colors
should be close, but there is no perfect match as no two people have
the same color vision.

Fourth, the idea that giving most models good marks makes you a shill
shows that the poster or speaker is one of the "experten." While
many of us like myself are now showing high mileage, this is the
"Golden Age" of modeling where nearly all of the major items we had
ever wished for are available and in reasonably good kits. Nearly all
of the kits produced by recognized companies can be built up to
represent the item they claim to be, and even a passerby can tell what
they are with little trouble. Given that, the number of real "duds"
is actually quite few, and people should realize that because the
"experten" do not like it does not mean it's a bad model.

I use four ratings in a review: Highly Recommended, Recommended,
Recommended with Reservations, and Not Recommended.

Highly Recommended: the kit, accessory, tool, or reference does what it
claims to do or builds into what it purports to be. Accuracy is good,
quality is high, and it is worth the cost of the item. If a model, it
needs little or no extra parts to complete it, unless the modeler
wishes to "upgrade" it on his own. If an accessory, it "drop
fits" with little effort. If a reference, it gives good information
(within its scope; photo scrapbooks don't have to have plans to be
useful) and accurate comments.

Recommended: the kit, accessory, tool or reference is not bad but has
some problems that must be addressed. Accuracy is okay but there are
some minor errors which need "surgery" to correct or parts
replaced, mostly from stocks or other kits (e.g. track types on tanks,
decals, placement of parts on the finished model, etc.) Tools are hard
to use or fragile. References have some caption errors or poor quality
photos, but by and large are good.

Recommended with Reservations: the kit, accessory, tool or reference
have some serious problems, but in many cases are the only one of their
kind on the market. A kit may require serious surgery and
scratchbuilding to represent what it claims to be, and is a difficult
and particularly unpleasant model to assemble. Accessories do not fit,
have major mistakes, and are exorbitant. References are recycled,
obsolete, built on mythos or present incorrect plans or photos.

Not Recommended: the kit, accessory, tool or reference is a waste of
time and money for a number of reasons. Kits are wrong, will not
assemble (common among some low-volume resin kits), or in some cases
literally stolen from other manufactures by pantographing the parts in
another kit and "cloning" the molds. Accessories have no value as
they are wrong, do not fit, or simply "pretty up" a bad kit while
fixing none of its vices. Tools are overly expensive, complex, fragile
and do not work. Finally, any reference that steals material from
another author (common in Russia and the former Soviet Union countries)
and simply translates it or presents as a new author's work is a
total waste of money.

Many reviewers do this type of work and it serves the needs of the
many, not the few. Most of the modelers who complain about this are
notoriously absent from either photos of assembled and finished models,
shows, articles written to show how to do a specific vehicle, or their
own reviews. I have one simple statement for them: PUT UP OR SHUT UP!
Either do a review or a built to show what you can do, or accept a
basic kit review for what it is - what is it, what was the prototype,
what does it consist of, how good is it, and what will it cost me?

Note that the last time I made this challenge in a well-known modeling
publication the "experten" took me up on it, and produced his own
model - showing that he was both mediocre on finishing techniques and
unable to fix major problems with a "Recommended with Reservations"
level kit. As the old saying goes, better to keep silent and be thought
a fool than to open your mouth and prove it correct.

When I was president of AMPS, I began to receive kits from various
manufacturers and accessories for review, and I initially sent them out
to such "experten" for reviews as they promised to build and review
them. I think I only got three back, and found I was just providing
free kits to these people. As a result, I changed my views on reviews,
began doing most of them myself, and donated the kits and accessories
to the annual AMPS International Show raffle. Some of the
"experten" were miffed and quit AMPS, but I never felt I was
missing out on great masters of the art.

Frank Desisto and I disagree about some things, but we review kits
totally separately and for the most part come to the same conclusions.
Ditto other reviewers on other websites, so we are more in tune with
center-of-mass modelers than the carping "experten." Call us names
and complain about the reviews, but what have YOU done other than
pontificate on websites, burning up bitspace for little of value? If
you have something of value, please share it - a new technique to
assemble single link tracks, how to fix a turret with a bad shape, what
to do about bad suspension geometry, etc. But don't waste my time -
or Frank's, or Brett's, or Steve Zaloga's, or anyone else who
SHARES useful information with diatribes.

Cookie Sewell
President
AMPS 1992-2004
Member, AMM 1987-1992
Member, IPMS 1966 - Present
Jeff Barringer - 17 May 2006 03:20 GMT
Damn cookie - when do you have time to make models ;)

> Looking at some of the newsgroups and discussion groups elsewhere,
> there seems to be a grave misunderstanding on the purpose and concept
[quoted text clipped - 145 lines]
> Member, AMM 1987-1992
> Member, IPMS 1966 - Present
Al Superczynski - 17 May 2006 04:56 GMT
>...colors should be close, but there is no perfect match as no two people have
>the same color vision.

    That's an *excellent* point that's not mentioned often enough.
Great post overall too, Cookie.
Signature

Al Superczynski, MFE, IPMS/USA #3795, continuous since 1968

My "From" address is munged - use 'modeleral (at) swbell (dot) net' to respond via email.

Check out my want lists and eBay listings at "Al's Place":
http://home.swbell.net/arfunguy/index.html
"Build what YOU like, the way YOU want to,
and the critics will flame you every time."

Ron Smith - 17 May 2006 05:09 GMT
My major caveat is build reviews always count for more than in-box
reviews. Too many times have I read "glowing" in-box reviews only to
find the kit has molding and fit problems common to 1960's era
Revell/Hawk/Pyro/Lindberg/etc. kits.

> Bottom line: Should I buy it? Can it build up as what it says it is?
> And will I be happy with it? That's what a review should say!

A review should also be honest and not gloss over any problems.

> many "advanced" modelers usually have little if any knowledge about
> more than one or two vehicles, and most of them are usually wrong about
> many of the points they claim to have expertise in. (These are the ones
> derisively referred to as "experten" on modeling web sites.)

You mean like the clown I overheard saying a Focke-Wulf 190 shouldn't
have a hole behind the canopy?

> "Real Modelers" fix things; "Kit Builders" don't. There's
> nothing wrong with just building kits, but if that's all you want to
> do then don't bother the rest of us with more psychobabble about why
> the designers of kit X deserve to be hung, drawn and quartered as the
> clean-out openings are slightly oval.

But an inaccurate, ill-fitting dog is still an inaccurate, ill-fitting
dog no matter if you're a "real modeler" or "kit builder"

> model.) But there's no excuse for a half-done job. Suggested colors
> should be close, but there is no perfect match as no two people have
> the same color vision.

However, if there *is* a color specification it should be called out if
for no other reason than an accurate reference. It should also be based
on the actual color standard and *not* FS-595 unless the standard in
question *is* FS-595.

> Fourth, the idea that giving most models good marks makes you a shill
> shows that the poster or speaker is one of the "experten." While
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> is actually quite few, and people should realize that because the
> "experten" do not like it does not mean it's a bad model.

True but there are a few who give only good reviews and one has to
wonder (for some reason the term "ne plus ultra" just popped into my
head). Trumpeter's current crop of tanks kits are gorgeous and build
very well, their current crop of ship kits suffer from poor fit, so-so
accuracy, stupid engineering mistakes and overpricing (if these were
tanks or planes the web would be lit up by the torches of the villagers
heading out burn Frankenstein). By contrast WEM's 1/350 resin ship kits
are gorgeous and most reviews can be summed up in less than a paragraph
(excellent fit, accurate, fine detail, little or no overpour, slightly
fiddly assembly for some of the finer PE items).

> Many reviewers do this type of work and it serves the needs of the
> many, not the few. Most of the modelers who complain about this are
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> basic kit review for what it is - what is it, what was the prototype,
> what does it consist of, how good is it, and what will it cost me?

I've won my share of regional IPMS awards in several genres and up to
intermediate gold at AMPS, so I can build them (I honestly don't give a
crap if I win an award or not). I do archival research for ship related
publishers and kit manufactures. My first master pattern for a resin kit
maker is almost ready (if I can ever get remotivated that is). I've sold
several articles recently and am about to start releasing my own line of
photo CD's. So yeah, I have put up and my research is all primary source.

> Frank Desisto and I disagree about some things, but we review kits
> totally separately and for the most part come to the same conclusions.
> Ditto other reviewers on other websites, so we are more in tune with
> center-of-mass modelers than the carping "experten." Call us names
> and complain about the reviews, but what have YOU done other than
> pontificate on websites, burning up bitspace for little of value?

See the paragraph immediately above.

Now in general your own in-box reviews give me fair idea of what's in
the kit and if it's well molded. Having build a reasonable number of
AFV's by most of the current manufacturers I can then use your in-box
review to decided whether I want the DML or AFV version of vehicle X.
What ifind funny is all the griping about fit problems with the DML
PzIV-E, except for one goof caused by me, I had no fit problems at all
on that kit.
david@bbbweb.com - 17 May 2006 09:25 GMT
>My major caveat is build reviews always count for more than in-box
>reviews. Too many times have I read "glowing" in-box reviews only to
>find the kit has molding and fit problems common to 1960's era
>Revell/Hawk/Pyro/Lindberg/etc. kits.

<snipped>

One of the guys at our local model club has started providing short
build reviews of the models he brings in each month.

Have a look at

http://www.nesxmodellers.org.uk/members/members-mh.htm

David
SBX Model Shop
http://www.sbxmodelshop.co.uk
Suppliers of Montex Masks to the world!
RobG - 17 May 2006 12:53 GMT
My take on build reviews is that they can be misleading. Depending on
the level of skill, a reviewer's "simple" build may not be so simple to
the average modeler. While most modelers will expect the normal OOB
type of modifications (filler, opening holes, etc.) sometimes build
reviewers snatch this and that from various kits or the parts box. The
builde review then becomes more of an accurization article. I'd rather
know if the kit fits and builds well and when completed is a reasonable
representation in the accuracy department.
Count DeMoney - 17 May 2006 18:24 GMT
Just one mans opinion.  I always laugh at reviews that have 3
paragraphs talking about what is wrong with a kit and then "highly
recommend" it.  I like the reviews in FSM because they are done by the
builder not just an open box peak.  You get a more accurate picture of
potential problems and what time and effort and skill is required.  You
can usually tell if the builder is a "rivet counter" or someone who
basically just built the kit.  What is important to me are things like.

Are the instructions clear and complete?
Does the kit contain all the parts on the instruction sheet?
Does it fit / go together reasonablly well?

If the answer to those 3 questions are yes, I have enough skill to
complete a decent model.  If any of the answers are no, I don't want to
endure the brain damage necessary to try and complete the project.  I
don't build for museums.  It doesn't matter if the splinter shield is
.00025 too thick or a gun barrell is .00075 too long.  Who cares....
Mad-Modeller - 18 May 2006 03:24 GMT
I think one of the funniest reviews of recent years was in Scale Auto
(Enthusiast).  The fellow was reviewing the recent re-issue of the '76
Dodge Dart coupe.  Apparently he was not let in on the fact that the
company selling them (RC/Ertl) had the kit mislabelled as a Duster.
That's the second time that kit has been released that way.

Considerable anguish was expressed by the reviewer over the fact that
too many parts in the kit were for a Dodge instead of the Plymouth
Duster.  I can't believe that the editor allowed that to be printed.
Why didn't someone there clue the guy in?  (OK, so it was good for some
knowledgable snickers. ;))

The right way would have been to mention the fact that it wasn't what
was presented on the boxlid and blame the seller, then go on and talk
about the merits of the kit on its own terms.  I guess you can't justly
criticise the seller anymore or risk losing their business.

Bill Banaszak, MFE Sr.
z - 19 May 2006 19:05 GMT
> I think one of the funniest reviews of recent years was in Scale Auto
> (Enthusiast).  The fellow was reviewing the recent re-issue of the '76
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Bill Banaszak, MFE Sr.

A while back one of the mags did a build review on the Testors platinum
series diecast bucket T. I happened to like that kit, the Testors
platinum series are pretty decent, for diecasts. Anyway, he had some
grief getting the engine to fit right when sitting on the mounts in the
frame which marred the ease of assembly etc. etc. I thought it was
funny, because I had had the same problem too, until I realized that
the mounts are C shaped because the mating tab is supposed to slide
into the slot in the middle, not underneath. D'oh.
Francis X. Kranick, Jr. - 19 May 2006 06:12 GMT
> Looking at some of the newsgroups and discussion groups elsewhere,
> there seems to be a grave misunderstanding on the purpose and concept
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Bottom line: Should I buy it? Can it build up as what it says it is?
> And will I be happy with it? That's what a review should say!

(snip)

    As a modeler who's written a few reviews, I disagree somewhat with
these three points.  While they seem reasonable, how can the review or
reviewer determine if I should buy an item as all modelers are different
(especially given the widest audience for the review) and have differing
needs/desires/budgets and most importantly, abilities.
    How can a reviewer determine if I'll be happy with it (the purchase of
the kit, accessory, etc.)?  Only by building can the modeler determine
if he/she can be happy with it - that's why we *build* models, isn't it?
    You've been around a long time, Cookie and I'm not here to question
your background, knowledge nor veracity on what you write.  That said...
    What I like to see in a review is a full-build to actually see what is
what and how the thing goes together.  I'm not too interested on
moldings and refined areas; the complete kit turns into a completed
model.  If the finished model is built, how easy/difficult can the build
go?  The reviewer is reviewing the kit and how it becomes a completed
model, the individual parts being of lesser importance than the sum of
those parts.  Here's where in-the-box reviews fall short as they cannot
tell you if the tracks are too short, the chassis too long or the fit of
the components.  The kit may have a beautiful Zimmerit panels but if the
 hull is canted in the wrong direction, where do these Zimmerit panels
prove their worth?  I respectfully submit you cannot give an accurate
report of a kit unless you build it.
    The same goes for aftermarket accessories; if the photoetched canopy
details don't fit the curvature of the canopy, any glowing, in-the-box
review is of dubious worth.
    I'm no "experten" and side squarely with those who poo-poo a reviewer
who'd claim shurtzen are too thick for the scale or complain the
aircraft model is a tailsitter; I can sand to thickness or add sinkers
when needed.
    The devil is in the details.  Without the details on how the model kit
becomes a model, any review lacking an actual build - to me - is nearly
worthless.
    That's what a bonafide kit review should be.

Frank Kranick
Rich - 19 May 2006 07:19 GMT
I have to agree that many in-box reviews are not very informative in the
whole picture view.  I can appreciate that there is information gained from
it, but very little really.  My main point is that too often I find them to
be a quick and dirty, get it out the door, I was first affair.

Build reviews are more interesting.  I learn from them- new techniques,
things to look for, or what kind of additional materials I may expect to
need.  There also just more fun.

Finally, I do appreciate the time, eeffort, and dedication that my fellow
modelers are expending on a review.  Even an in-box.  It takes guts to put
something out, knowing that someone will snipe at it.   And I do want to
know that it is not cratered with ejection marks or sink holes.  It is just
that in the end, I have ways to fix these things, and will gain more from
following someone else's story.

Rich
Stephen Tontoni - 19 May 2006 18:30 GMT
> > Looking at some of the newsgroups and discussion groups elsewhere,
> > there seems to be a grave misunderstanding on the purpose and concept
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> your background, knowledge nor veracity on what you write.  That said...
>     What I like to see in a review is a full-build to actually see what is

---snippage---

Sounds like you're comparing in-box reviews to full-build articles,
which are very different things. I agree that full-builds are more
valuable, but they tend to lag behind the in-box (internet modeler, for
example) reviews.

I like to know, since I'm not an industry insider,if the 'new' kit is
actually new or not. There are so many re-pops of other company's kits
now that it's difficult to assess a kit's quality based on the name
brand alone.

I disagree that being able to build a kit means that it's an acceptable
one; we frequently get so far along a nasty project that we figure we
might as well see it to the other side, or we want to build that one
subject so badly, we don't mind that it's a sub-standard kit. Might as
well call the damn thing sub-standard right off the bat, and spare other
people the associated pain.

--- Stephen
WmB - 19 May 2006 18:47 GMT
>> > Looking at some of the newsgroups and discussion groups elsewhere,
>> > there seems to be a grave misunderstanding on the purpose and concept
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
>
> --- Stephen

I'd be happy if they'd just go back to putting untouched photos of the model
on the boxtop and let me decide from that what I think of their kit -
instead of airbrushed illusions or pics of the 1:1 real McCoy that only
serve to remind me what my model will never exactly look like.

WmB
Count DeMoney - 19 May 2006 19:04 GMT
If it looks pretty on the tree and the detail looks fantastic but the
parts don't fit together well, what good is it?  I do agree that
knowing if the kit is a re-issue is valuable.  There are way too many
old things being rolled out in new boxes.  If I read a build review
claimiming good fit and finish I will consider the project only if it
is a subject that interests me.  If the build review describes lots of
problems with fit or finish, even if the subject is one I am interested
in, why would I buy it?  Every time we buy a kit we vote with our
dollars.  Why reward a company that produces unbuildable products?
What is worse, some innacurate detail or something that flat doesn't
fit?
Count DeMoney - 19 May 2006 19:25 GMT
One more comment and then I will rest.  When I quit this hobby many
years ago, I remember the last project very well.  It was a 1/8 scale
XKE Jag by Monogram.  I spent quite a few hours painting and building
all the sub assemblies.  They looked great but, when I started putting
it together, it was obvious there was no way it would ever happen.  I
wound up heaving it into the trash in despair.  I then put this hobby
down for more than 25 years.  When I picked things up again a couple of
years ago, I made myself a couple of promises, one was I would never
buy without first doing some research on the kit.  The internet is
great for this.  In the words of the infamous Johnny Cochran, If it
doesn't fit, it's just plain sh.t"  (:>
AMPSOne@aol.com - 19 May 2006 20:50 GMT
I would love to do full-up build reviews of kits, but that will not
happen as I still have a "day job" and other interests. Something has
to give, and alas it turned out to be the full-court-press builds.
Also, while I give every item submitted to me by manufacturers or
distrubutors the same fair shake, many of the subjects are not of
interest to me and I have no desire to build them to my standards
(100-150 hours on a kit to get something as close to right as I can.)

"Box rattlers" are better than nothing, as it at least gives you an
idea of what the kit is and what it will be. I've built a fair share of
models over the years and while I have made some horrendous mistakes
(the initial DML Nashorn being a real low point!) most of the time the
reviews I write at least place the kit in the ballpark.

Cookie Sewell
Count DeMoney - 20 May 2006 01:50 GMT
I didn't intend to deminish your effort.  I, like you, stll have a full
time day job.  There is substantial value in your reviews and
obviously, there would be no time to build everything you review.  I
read every one of them and they have, in fact, led me to do further
research and actually buy two of your recommendations over the past
year.  Fortunatly, there are other resources on the internet and print
media that deal with builds and compliment what you do.

I remember when I quit building, my "bone yard" was enormous.  I would
say it was about 50/50 my bad work versus bad kits.  I try to keep my
expectations reasonable but I do expect things to actually fit
together.  There is no way the manufacturer can cater to the
perfectionist.  If they did, kits would be 10 times more expensive then
they are now and, by the way, the perfectionists probably represents
less than 1% of their available market.
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2009 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.