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Model Forum / General / Models / July 2006FS 16440 Light Gull Gray
When you think about FS 16440 Light Gull Grey, what sort of colour do you think of? In many colour profiles that I have seen - especially in the Osprey Combat aircraft series - Light Gull Gray seems to be a medium toned neutral grey with quite a strong contrast against the white undersurfaces. The strong contrast is also apparent in black-and-white photographs. I'm currently building an F-4B, using Xtracrylix XA1137. I have sprayed on the uppersurface Light Gull Grey and the appearance isn't what I expected. It is a very light grey and the tone isn't neutral like I expected. In fact there seems to be a bit of a warm brownish hue. The colour is actually very attractive. There isn't as much contrast between the white and the grey as I expected. I have reason to believe that the Xtracrylix colour may well be reasonably accurate. When the RAF bought a number of ex-USN F-4Js in the '80s, they were delivered painted in the nearest FS colours to the British equivalents. (The colours didn't *quite* match, giving the F-4J(UK)s as delivered a distinct bluish appearance). The undersurfaces were painted in 36440 as the equivalent to Light Aircraft Grey. I have compared the Xtracrylix Light Gull Gray to Xtracrylix Light Aircraft Grey (which I think looks exactly right). The colours are very much comparable, with the Light Gull Gray maintaining that warm brownish hue. Therefore I'm reasonably happy with the choice of colour. I'm just surprised that it is so much different to what I was expecting. I wonder if Light Gull Gray is one of those fugitive colours that doesn't photograph very well, especially on monochrome film. Comments anyone?  SignatureEnzo I wear the cheese. It does not wear me. >When you think about FS 16440 Light Gull Grey, what sort of colour do you >think of? It depends. See the F-104 pics here for some dramatic examples of the effects of lighting: <http://www.chandelle-jah.com/camocolors.html> SignatureAl Superczynski, MFE, IPMS/USA #3795, continuous since 1968 My "From" address is munged - use 'modeleral (at) swbell (dot) net' to respond via email. Check out my want lists and eBay listings at "Al's Place": http://home.swbell.net/arfunguy/index.html "Build what YOU like, the way YOU want to, and the critics will flame you every time." That's a worthwhile site, Al. Thanks for pointing us there. Bill Banaszak, MFE Sr. >That's a worthwhile site, Al. Thanks for pointing us there. You're welcome. I just ran across it the other day doing a Google search for the CMYK values of Insignia Yellow and wound up hitting the jackpot! :-) SignatureAl Superczynski, MFE, IPMS/USA #3795, continuous since 1968 My "From" address is munged - use 'modeleral (at) swbell (dot) net' to respond via email. Check out my want lists and eBay listings at "Al's Place": http://home.swbell.net/arfunguy/index.html "Build what YOU like, the way YOU want to, and the critics will flame you every time." > It depends. See the F-104 pics here for some dramatic examples >of the effects of lighting: Great site Al - now bookmarked. Thanks. A few other things that significantly affect the percieved color (some mentioned only slightly on that web site). 1. The film used. For slides, Kodachrome and Ektachrome (slide films) have distinctly different tones - Ektachrome is slightly bluer and I think gives a more accurate color outdoors. Personal opinion only (but supported by many pros). Also Kodak, Fuji and Agfa (print films) all will show different tones on the same subject 2. The lighting conditions - was it cloudy (how much - thin or thick?) or sunny? Morning, Noon or Late day? 3. Angle of the shot. Because of #2, the angle matters. 4. How weathered is the paint? Even on actual aircraft, the tones change as the paint weathers. 5. What lot # was the paint manufactured from? Even in the same squadron, you will find variations in tone for the same FS# - they don't all come out the can the same. 6. Color in photos (and negatives) fades with time and depends totally on how well the original negative or slide was stored. Unless you know the answers to all the above questions, you can't be sure what you are looking at in that photo is real. The #1 best method of getting the correct color is to paint the original with the color you intend to use and see which matches best. I actually did that when I was flying TA-4J's in the training command many moons ago. I discovered that Floquil Reefer Orange (Dio-Sol version) was a dead-on match for the South-Texas weathered International Orange panels on our aircraft. So much so that the maintenance folks could not find where I painted! Bottom line is this: all these yayhoos that tell you the color is not right on your model don't have a clue what they are talking about. First, they haven't been around that particular aircraft (in all likelyhood) and second, I'll bet they never ran a military paint shop - I have, and probably a few others out there - but we're not the ones telling you your paint job is wrong 'cuz we know better! I won't even get into scale effect, but use the color you think is right based on your own research. You'll be fine. John Alger IPMS 10906 Charlotte Scale Modelers >...all these yayhoos that tell you the color is not >right on your model don't have a clue what they are talking about. I agree for the most part. There are just too many variables to be pedantic about exact colors. SignatureAl Superczynski, MFE, IPMS/USA #3795, continuous since 1968 My "From" address is munged - use 'modeleral (at) swbell (dot) net' to respond via email. Check out my want lists and eBay listings at "Al's Place": http://home.swbell.net/arfunguy/index.html "Build what YOU like, the way YOU want to, and the critics will flame you every time." >> It depends. See the F-104 pics here for some dramatic examples >> of the effects of lighting: [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > get into scale effect, but use the color you think is right based on > your own research. You'll be fine. Thanks, John. I think that's pretty good advice. SignatureEnzo I wear the cheese. It does not wear me. >> When you think about FS 16440 Light Gull Grey, what sort of colour >> do you think of? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > <http://www.chandelle-jah.com/camocolors.html> Oh my word, what an excellent site! Thanks for the link, Al! SignatureEnzo I wear the cheese. It does not wear me. >> <http://www.chandelle-jah.com/camocolors.html> > >Oh my word, what an excellent site! Thanks for the link, Al! You're welcome! I'm surprised that nobody here has run across it before now. SignatureAl Superczynski, MFE, IPMS/USA #3795, continuous since 1968 My "From" address is munged - use 'modeleral (at) swbell (dot) net' to respond via email. Check out my want lists and eBay listings at "Al's Place": http://home.swbell.net/arfunguy/index.html "Build what YOU like, the way YOU want to, and the critics will flame you every time." Thanks Al. I hadn't seen that reference before. I knew about the various effects of lighting on color but the pictures in the article dramatically illustrate it. SignatureCheers: Bill Woodier In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger. I do not shrink from this responsibility -- I welcome it. My Home Page: http://www.bill-woodier.com/home.htm -- >>When you think about FS 16440 Light Gull Grey, what sort of colour do you >>think of? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > <http://www.chandelle-jah.com/camocolors.html> >Thanks Al. You're welcome. :) SignatureAl Superczynski, MFE, IPMS/USA #3795, continuous since 1968 My "From" address is munged - use 'modeleral (at) swbell (dot) net' to respond via email. Check out my want lists and eBay listings at "Al's Place": http://home.swbell.net/arfunguy/index.html "Build what YOU like, the way YOU want to, and the critics will flame you every time." That was similar to my reaction when I bought my first tin of Humbrols' Gull Grey. I had been expecting a light grey with a hint of blue. Just to excite you more, I used to use ModelMaster's Gloss Gull Grey on model railroad covered hoppers. It came quite close to most of the prototypes rolling by here. Bill Banaszak, MFE Sr. > Just to excite you more, I used to use ModelMaster's Gloss Gull Grey on > model railroad covered hoppers. It came quite close to most of the > prototypes rolling by here. Clean ones or dirty ones? gd&r... > > Just to excite you more, I used to use ModelMaster's Gloss Gull Grey on > > model railroad covered hoppers. It came quite close to most of the > > prototypes rolling by here. > > Clean ones or dirty ones? > gd&r... The clean ones. The dirty ones take more weathering. One thing I didn't do was 'vandalise' them with paint. I did get into a bit of a tussle with some folks over on rmr a few years back over their producing decals to replicate grafitti. So many people seemed to be into putting it on their models that I decided to cease grousing about it. ;] Bill Banaszak, MFE Sr. > That was similar to my reaction when I bought my first tin of Humbrols' > Gull Grey. I had been expecting a light grey with a hint of blue. I have to agree with the original post that indicates that Light Gull Gray seems a little on the brownish side. That is also my impression from seeing real US Navy aircraft. There is a similar phenomenon with USAF ADC Gray FSx6473. In photos of F-102s and F-106s, the aircraft most often seen in this color, it looks like they are painted a light gray color with a touch of blue. When you see these aircraft close up in real life, the gray has a definite greenish tint to it. I think the blueish shade seen in photos, especially those taken in-flight, comes from the reflection of the sky and photographic film sensitivities. That said, ADC Gray on a 1/72 scale F-106 just looks too green to me so I substitute Testors Canadian Voodoo Gray FS16515. This isn't the color called out in the F-106 Technical Order but it definetly looks "more right" on a model than the official color. I'm trying to not stick to the "official" colors so rigidly and am trying to go with what "looks right". I think it makes the models look more authentic. Martin >> That was similar to my reaction when I bought my first tin of >> Humbrols' Gull Grey. I had been expecting a light grey with a hint [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > "official" colors so rigidly and am trying to go with what "looks > right". I think it makes the models look more authentic. Thanks, Martin. I am sticking with the Xtracrylix paint. I have noticed that some USN aircraft exhibit a bit of a "patchwork quilt" effect on the uppersurfaces, where some panels seem to have weathered differently to others. As I mentioned in my original post, I've noticed that the Xtracrylix RAF Light Aircraft Grey is very similar to the Light Gull Grey, but without the brownish hue. I think it might be interesting to mask off some of these discoloured panels and give them a very light overspray of Light Aircraft Grey - just enough to make a bit of a difference. That's another technique that I've never tried before. All this trying new techniques is fun! :-D SignatureEnzo I wear the cheese. It does not wear me. >I have noticed that some USN aircraft exhibit a bit of a "patchwork quilt" >effect on the uppersurfaces, where some panels seem to have weathered [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >off some of these discoloured panels and give them a very light overspray of >Light Aircraft Grey - just enough to make a bit of a difference. >That's another technique that I've never tried before. All this trying new >techniques is fun! :-D >Enzo Enzo, It is not so much that the weather differently as it is they are often actually painted at different times. There is a constant battle to prevent corrosion during deployments aboard the aircraft carriers. Operations go on around the clock, and unless there is something seriously wrong with an aircraft, it does not go down to the hanger deck and out of the weather. Any fastener or panel that is removed to access the interior must have all the bare material surfaces touched up for corrosion prevention when it is reinstalled. Time is usually very limited and the touch up work is often done in poor light. Usually by some guy with a can of spray paint that might or might not (usually not) be exactly the same color as the surrounding paint. If the spray can label says it is the right color, it is used. Sometimes it is even used if it is even close to the right color. The whole airframe generally gets pretty serious use with little regard for how it looks. By the end of the deployment most of them look pretty beat up and well used. On the opposite side of this is the fact that most of the really impressive CAG color schemes seem to occur during deployments. Apparently someone has the time to do fancy paint work during those times. And thanks for that as they usually make great modeling subjects. Norm >> I have noticed that some USN aircraft exhibit a bit of a "patchwork >> quilt" effect on the uppersurfaces, where some panels seem to have [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > And thanks for that as they usually make great modeling subjects. Thanks, Norm. And all of a sudden there is a great correlation between my railway modelling and my aircraft modelling! When weathering a steam locomotive, you can't just bung muck and stuff thither and yon. You have to do a bit of research into where there were steam and/or water leaks on the prototype, what sort of water (hard or soft) was used in the area of operations and even how efficient the cleaning crew were at the shed. It is obviously the same way with these aircraft. I'm going to have to do a bit of research into which panels were removed most. Like I said, it's great fun! :-D SignatureEnzo I wear the cheese. It does not wear me. >> I have noticed that some USN aircraft exhibit a bit of a "patchwork >> quilt" effect on the uppersurfaces, where some panels seem to have [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > regard for how it looks. By the end of the deployment most of them > look pretty beat up and well used. Does that mean that the aircraft are pretty much pristine at the start of the deployment? I would imagine that they would all go through either a major or minor servicing before a deployment. Is it possible to gauge how long a carrier has been on deployment by the state of their jets? ;-) Today, I tried spraying some panels different colours. I spent ages masking them off then gave them a light overspray of Light Aircraft Grey. Shortly afterwards I gave them a lighter overspray of the original Light Gull Grey in an attempt to restore some of the brown hue. I was amazed at the results. The effect is very subtle, but all of a sudden the paint scheme has come to life. I've never been a devotee of flooding the panel lines with darker colours, as that just doesn't seem to be realistic to me. This technique seems far better. Tomorrow I am going to mask off some other panels and try spraying those with a lighter grey, say FS36622. I also noted that the LAG has a different gloss finish to the LGG, so that is something else I will try. After everything has been completed, I will spray the whole aircraft in a satin finish then mask off some random panels and spray them with matt varnish. This is fun!!! :-D SignatureEnzo I wear the cheese. It does not wear me. Enzo, The next step is to attempt to get some of the grunge and grim effect. I generally am not a big fan of the stark black panel lines either. Especially on a pristine model. It just does not look right to me. Sometimes highlighting a few panels lines with a slightly darker color works well. But usually on a well used aircraft, especially the new very none glossy tactical jets, they tend to show areas where hydraulic fluids, fuel and other liquids have seeped out of actuators and joints, then been blown aft as the aircraft flies. Then the sticky fluids attract dirt and turn dark. Being able to do this on a model is almost another art form in itself. Usually you see a lot of "weathered" models that just don't look right. If you start looking at photos of these birds with an eye toward the subtitle weathering you start to pick up patterns. One of the things I often see on models that usually does not look right is the fact that the modeler weathered a lot of it in the vertical. That looks like most of the weathering occurred while the A/C was sitting still on the ground. While I am sure some of it occurs then, most of the really visible streaks and stains are from front to back. A good example would be the wing top surfaces of the F/A-18 series. Many pictures show soft smudges and streaks that start at the trailing edges of the leading edge flaps and the leading edge of the flaps and aileron. This is because the actuators often leak fluids and the slipstream picks it up and blows it aft. I think the best advice on weathering is when it really starts to look good-quit. Don't do that extra little bit. Also step back and look at the whole thing as you are working on it. It is easy to get into each little panel detail to the point where the whole thing appears too much. Norm > Enzo, > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > each little panel detail to the point where the whole thing appears > too much. I'm used to weathering from my railway modelling. The difference is that the weathering on a railway engine *should* be done in the vertical. One lesson I learned early on is that you should always stop weathering just before you think you are done. It is very easy to do just that little bit too much. I have a number of pictures of F-4s in flight banking away from the camera. I'm simply going to attempt to replicate what I see on those pictures. The belly of an F-4 seemed to get *particularly* filthy. One oddity is that the outer skin of the wingbox structure always looks a lot cleaner than the rest of the belly. With the last few models that I have built, I have attempted to move out of my comfort zone and try some new techniques. I am detailing cockpits using more scratchbuilt parts rather than simply bunging in a resin cockpit. I am doing more weathering than I used to. I've started using Kleer (aka Future) as a varnish... And I have to say, I'm enjoying my modelling far more these days. SignatureEnzo I wear the cheese. It does not wear me. I spent a lot of time around Lt Gull Gray & White airplanes. In general FS 16440 is as you described, it's a "warm" gray and not bluish at all. IMHO Xtracolor & Testors Modelmaster have this color down quite well. I think the Osprey profiles are nice, but to my mind they show a bit more contrast than is for real. They may do that on purpose just to show the contrast betwen the gray and the white. > When you think about FS 16440 Light Gull Grey, what sort of colour do you > think of? [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Comments anyone? > I spent a lot of time around Lt Gull Gray & White airplanes. In > general FS 16440 is as you described, it's a "warm" gray and not > bluish at all. IMHO Xtracolor & Testors Modelmaster have this color > down quite well. I'm using Xtracrylix, which is the acrylic version of Xtracolor. I like it, even though it wasn't what I was expecting. Thanks for the input, Don. SignatureEnzo I wear the cheese. It does not wear me. It's a light neutral grey... however, the FS standard allows for a 20% color variance so I've seen it range from an almost blue grey to a very warm brownish grey. DJ > When you think about FS 16440 Light Gull Grey, what sort of colour do you > think of? [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Comments anyone? > It's a light neutral grey... however, the FS standard allows for a > 20% color variance so I've seen it range from an almost blue grey to > a very warm brownish grey. "20% color variance"? Good heavens! With that sort of variety, no one can really be proved either right or wrong. As most people in this thread have been saying "if it looks right, then it *is* right!" SignatureEnzo I wear the cheese. It does not wear me. |
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