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ARM: REview - DML 1/35 Scale M4A3E8 "Thunderbolt VII"

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AMPSOne@aol.com - 11 Aug 2006 23:12 GMT
Kit Review: Dragon Models Limited 1/35 Scale '39-'45 Series Kit
Number 6183; M4A3E8 "Thunderbolt VII"; 633 parts  (431 in grey
styrene, 160 "Magic Link" T66 tracks, 18 clear styrene, 12 steel
springs, 11 etched brass, 6 brass tubes, 1 turned aluminum barrel);
estimated price US $41-45

Advantages: DML "works off the gig sheet" on past kits with CORRECT
weld beads and "slide molded" turret shapes; back detail on all
wheels; very detailed parts breakdown to HVSS bogies; correct period
T66 tracks

Disadvantages: not enough etched brass for some modelers (see text)

Rating: Highly Recommended

Recommendation: for all US Armor fans and "Shermaholics"

F I R S T   L O O K

    There is a document used by the United States Army which goes by its
printing reference number as Form DA 2404. It is used to list the daily
check faults on vehicles and as such is usually called either a 2404 or
"gig sheet." Essentially the majority of kit reviews or build
reviews many modelers write or see is pretty much along the same lines,
albeit some are more finicky than others as to what they write up as
"gigs".

    For years fans of the Sherman tank - more properly the US Army M4
Medium Tank series - have been doing this to one kit or another for
many reasons. And nearly every major and several minor manufacturer has
done a 1/35 scale Sherman - Revell, Monogram, Tamiya, Italeri,
Nichimo, MP Models, Dragon Models Limited, and Academy with Sherman
based kits either coming out or available from AFV Club and Trumpeter
as well. All have been written up for their flaws, mistakes or simple
"gigs" and as a result have keep "experten" on the Shermans
(and a few real knowledgeable people like Steve Zaloga and Joe Demarco)
busy sorting them out for more than 25 years.

    The major problems that are usually noted with the kits are these:

    - The turret shapes are wrong, or wrong for the version being modeled;
    - The weld beads are wrong, as they show up as "trenches" rather
than weld bead which stands proud of the surface;
    -The wheels come with no backing detail and are too thin;
    -  The tracks are not correct, either wrong width, wrong design, wrong
patter, or too flimsy;
    - And, the details for a specific variant are not correct -
exhausts, vents, fenders, grilles, or hatches are not put in the right
place (the culprit usually being research of an incorrectly restored
vehicle.)

    DML has taken much of the criticism of their kits to heart, and even
though they have produced the arguably best Sherman kits to date, they
have constantly been "gigged" for some or all of the above errors.
Now they have come back with a vengeance with this first in a new
series of M4 series tank kits, and most of the "gigs" have been
"worked off" or eliminated.

    The subject of the new kit is the last WWII M4 tank used by Colonel
Creighton Abrams after he took off Combat Command B of the 4th Armored
Division. It represents an early production M4A3 with the horizontal
volute spring suspension, better known as either HVSS or "Easy 8"
after its test designation, single-pin T66 cast tracks, a 76mm gun with
muzzle brake in the later version of the T23-derived cast turret, and
ordnance designed and fitted applique armor panels.

    While not labeled as a "Smart Kit" like the new Panther Ausf. G,
the new M4A3E8 kit uses a minimum of multimedia parts - it comes with
a sparse brass sheet of only 11 items for use as the fenders for the
wider HVSS suspension and track, a turned aluminum barrel, and 12
springs and six brass tubes that may be fitted to the suspension to
permit it to "operate." While I personally am not a fan of
"frou-frou" features like this, at least it is a better and more
scalelike way to approach it than the toy-like vinyl or rubber fittings
used in some other kits from other manufacturers.

    The name of the game with this kit is "slide molding" which
permits DML to get more onto the model in the right places and with
less distortion. The lower hull pan now sports a lot more detail than
past kits, including the assembly notching used on the real vehicle and
other niceties. The upper hull FINALLY sports something no other kit
has done up until now - RAISED weld bead instead of trenches where
the welded hull assembles. This by itself will win the affection of
many "Shermaholics" who tired of having to constantly fill and
reshape the weld beads.

    The turret is an evolution of the recent moldings from DML , and is
again "slide molded" with texture, built-in pistol port mount, and
the subtle angles of the original cast turret captured far better than
past efforts by all companies.

    The bogies are very complex, but are detailed on all sides and look
quite impressive. Each one consists of two seven-piece subassemblies
(the tires are separate) and a 12-piece center assembly using the
springs and brass tube to provide for spring operation of the bogie if
carefully assembled. There is no "non-working" option so care will
have to be taken to get the parts aligned correctly.

    This is the "early model" and comes with the original
"three-vane" exhaust deflector at th rear of the hull as well as
the T66 single-link tracks. While DML had a great set of T66 tracks
that they came out with ten years ago, the new ones are "Magic
Track" and snap together. Each one has four tiny ejection pin marks
on it, partially to permit the correct molding of the center guide horn
as hollow; but they stand "proud" and will be easily trimmed off.
(The real ones were short-lived as they proved fragile; if you want to
go with the late war T80 tracks, the AFV Club ones would be your best
bet as they are less fussy than the old DML ones that need their
connectors drilled out and center guides glued in place.) Suffice to
say that they did not opt out for what appears to have been the wrong
T80 tracks as they did with their DX05 "Allen F. Irzyk" M4A3E8 kit
last year (to which this kit is only related by generic type and not
moldings.)

    The kit is the first one that captures subtle details (usually not
seen) such as the APU exhaust (part B35) under the left sponson. (I
don't highlight that as all DML Shermans have always had sponson
floors, unlike some other kits.) The idlers are also detailed on both
sides and nicely done. Also, DML has engineered the proper fittings for
the tow shackles at the front of the hull with the double brackets.

    Most of the rest of the details are new and nicely done - even the
tools are more substantial than in past kits. All gun barrels are
hollow-bored and all "glass" is provided with a clear plastic
viewer or lens.

    The one major grouse some will have with this kit - as with the
"Smart Kit" Panther - is that it is engineered to only use a
small amount of etched brass. In this kit that translates to only two
items - a complete set of fenders (albeit with styrene braces) and a
bracket for the additional .30 caliber Browning used by Abrams. (Note
that the direct6ions do not really cover the specific fit for
"Thunderbolt VII" as opposed to other late war M4A3E8 tanks, but do
show it in the finishing instructions.)  All of the "normal" etched
parts - brackets, viewer guards, headlight and taillight guards, etc.
- are all very thin and petite styrene moldings. (I feel there will
be a cyber-hobby.com "Upgrade" set coming...) However, there are
more than enough etched sets available to please the most demanding
soul, and for those who do not like etched metal this kit will more
than meet the need.

    Four finishing options are provided: "Thunderbolt VII" with all of
its upgrades and fittings, 4th AD Germany 1945; another 4th AD tank,
Germany 1945; 35th Tank Battalion, 4th AD, Bastogne 1945; and 41st Tank
Battalion, 11th Armored Division, Germany 1945. All are basic OD with
the minimal amount of codes and lettering, which is a bit odd as at
this stage of the war many of the vehicles began to sprout full sets of
lettering, coding, numbers and stars. One would have though DML would
have selected one of them, but they chose to go with "minimalist"
subjects.

    Overall this is another great effort from DML, and while the "boo
birds" will no doubt carp about the lack of etched brass the fact of
having a great and solid base kit is of more interest to the average
modeler and will be more appreciated in the long run.

    Thanks to Freddie Leung for the review sample.

Cookie Sewell

*  *  *

Sprue Layout:

A    96    M4A2/A3 Late upper hull with A2 engine deck
B    37    Late T23 style turret
C    18    clear styrene
D    8    Applique armor panels
G    24    M4A3 engine deck and VVSS details
H    24    Early T23 style turret
J    24    Road wheel tires
K    4    Idler tires
Q    35x2    Drive wheels
Q    48x3    HVSS road wheels and bogies
X    1    Lower hull pan
Y    160    Magic Track - T66 links

MA    11    etched brass fenders
MB    12    steel springs
MB    6    brass tubes
MB     1     turned aluminum barrel
William H. Shuey - 12 Aug 2006 05:00 GMT
> Kit Review: Dragon Models Limited 1/35 Scale '39-'45 Series Kit
> Number 6183; M4A3E8 "Thunderbolt VII"; 633 parts  (431 in grey
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Recommendation: for all US Armor fans and "Shermaholics"

    Not to start an argument or anything: But as a follow up question,
which came in more variations, the Sherman tank or the Messerschmitt
109???    
                    :-)         Bill Shuey
AMPSOne@aol.com - 12 Aug 2006 19:36 GMT
>     Not to start an argument or anything: But as a follow up question,
> which came in more variations, the Sherman tank or the Messerschmitt
> 109???
>                     :-)         Bill Shuey

Bill,

On paper the DESIGNATED variants of the 109 would win - must be over 60
or 70 of them, and only about 20 recognized Sherman types.

But as there were only 29,000 109s built and over 49,000 Shermans, and
the latter had more FIELD mods than the former, figure the odds... 8-)

Cookie Sewell
e - 12 Aug 2006 20:09 GMT
>>       Not to start an argument or anything: But as a follow up question,
>> which came in more variations, the Sherman tank or the Messerschmitt
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>Cookie Sewell

amazing that galland said too little and too late about the
109's.
Jim - 12 Aug 2006 20:33 GMT
>>>       Not to start an argument or anything: But as a follow up question,
>>> which came in more variations, the Sherman tank or the Messerschmitt
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> amazing that galland said too little and too late about the
> 109's.
e - 12 Aug 2006 21:43 GMT
>>>>       Not to start an argument or anything: But as a follow up question,
>>>> which came in more variations, the Sherman tank or the Messerschmitt
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>> amazing that galland said too little and too late about the
>> 109's.

depends on the mission. the 109 was more of a pilot's plane
and the 190 was better for mediocre pilots. all the german
aces said they prefered the 109....at least the one i've
read.
then again, rudel loved the stuka over any other dive
bomber.
Rufus - 12 Aug 2006 22:52 GMT
>>>>>      Not to start an argument or anything: But as a follow up question,
>>>>>which came in more variations, the Sherman tank or the Messerschmitt
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> then again, rudel loved the stuka over any other dive
> bomber.

...that pretty much sums it up - properly match mission and ability with
the right platform and you'll get a winning combination with any chunk
of equipment.  Do otherwise, and...

Signature

     - Rufus

e - 12 Aug 2006 23:13 GMT
>> In article <H2qDg.9558$eL2.400@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com>, "Jim"
>>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>the right platform and you'll get a winning combination with any chunk
>of equipment.  Do otherwise, and...

like me thursday....har har.
i had to go to v-ville to the dr. so i rode the new sr. i
took the back road there at 9 am. when i left at 11 it was a
freakin 101f, so i decided to hit i15 and boogie back.
i added an oil cooler on the top of the down tube under th
gas tank in front of the jug. it's actually an elkhart
tranny cooler unit but it was an easy mod.
i figured that would keep things nice and cool. it was so
freakin hot that i stayed between 90-95 all the way back.
when i got off at barstow rd, the motor died. no biggie,
right?
pulled off ont the bridge and hit the kicker...it would not
budge! the motor was so hot the piston swelled tight.
so i sat for 10 minutes, rolled down the hill 20 feet and
bumped it. it started right up and ran fine.....
i suspect the new cooler kept it from a highway lock up!
it also allows an extra quart of oil in the system.
those sr motor are bullet proof, the bike had zero ill
effects!
the point? me and sr's are tuned to each other.
Rufus - 13 Aug 2006 01:09 GMT
>>>then again, rudel loved the stuka over any other dive
>>>bomber.
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> effects!
> the point? me and sr's are tuned to each other.

Heh...I burnt a battery in my '98.  Just replaced it.

Was going to pick the new batt up and came across a guy on a hardtail
chopper (with a rice-rocket motor in it...) that had siezed the rear
brake.  Probably threw a shoe - was a drum.  One of the locals had a
trailer coming for him.

Signature

     - Rufus

e - 13 Aug 2006 01:36 GMT
>> In article <P4sDg.131897$1i1.13047@attbi_s72>, Rufus <srollin2@mchsi.com>
>>
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>brake.  Probably threw a shoe - was a drum.  One of the locals had a
>trailer coming for him.

let me guess, a honda 750 4cylinder k model, pretty extreme
rake, flames and a goadawgul king and queen seat? the rear
wheel was from a sporty and there's no front brake?
Rufus - 13 Aug 2006 07:21 GMT
>>>In article <P4sDg.131897$1i1.13047@attbi_s72>, Rufus <srollin2@mchsi.com>
>>
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> rake, flames and a goadawgul king and queen seat? the rear
> wheel was from a sporty and there's no front brake?

...very, very, VERY, close...I can't recall about the flames.  Was too
busy looking at the drum brake on the rear - hadn't seen one in ages.

Signature

     - Rufus

e - 13 Aug 2006 16:50 GMT
>> In article <55uDg.132063$1i1.29489@attbi_s72>, Rufus <srollin2@mchsi.com>
>>
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
>....very, very, VERY, close...I can't recall about the flames.  Was too
>busy looking at the drum brake on the rear - hadn't seen one in ages.

in the early 70's i was lucky enough to work for a guy who
was a pioneer in the japanese custom field. i wasn't like a
hot shot builder ot painter, i was young and learning. but
it was a great expirience and helped my wrenching immensely.
i eas given a black bomber that a classmate wrecked. the
motor was fine, except for the exhaust.
the owner, jim, gave me ideas and parts at cost while
teaching me to build a custom.
it ended up as a hard tail bitsa. front forks were fron a
superhawk, frame was the original straitened and the rear
was welded into on piece. we added a shelf where the
aircleaners and junk went for the battery and electrics.
no rake, (hate rake!) dual discs, electronic ignition,
basically it had whatever parts were around.
i learned to paint and it was black with some very simple
flames. when it was done, it was radical but it was a
simplistic joy. i'm looking for pictures.
i loved that bike.....wonder where it is?
it was like the biggest kitbash i'd ever done.
sigh.....old age, mumble, mumble.
Rufus - 14 Aug 2006 02:39 GMT
>>>>Heh...I burnt a battery in my '98.  Just replaced it.
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> it was like the biggest kitbash i'd ever done.
> sigh.....old age, mumble, mumble.

Yup.  Don't know where this guys frame was from, but it was seriously
filleted...the peg mounts were blended into the frame, and the pegs may
have even been welded on old-school style.  It was sort of a rootbeer
metalflake color - almost black, but with a brownish cast.  Don't know
where the rear wheel came from - looked like a Triumph maybe.

Signature

     - Rufus

e - 14 Aug 2006 03:08 GMT
>> In article <pxzDg.88246$FQ1.82450@attbi_s71>, Rufus <srollin2@mchsi.com>
>>
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
>metalflake color - almost black, but with a brownish cast.  Don't know
>where the rear wheel came from - looked like a Triumph maybe.

ironhead sporty. twin 8" shoels, laced up on almost any rim
you wanted. fit virtually any home made hardtail becuse it
was simple to shim. bet he had an akront 18" rim.
kim - 13 Aug 2006 15:38 GMT
> IMHO the FW190 was a far better bird than the 109.

Willy Messerschmitt was a loyal member of the Nazi Party so as rewarded with
big government contracts at the expense of his rivals whose designs were
often much better.

(kim)
e - 13 Aug 2006 16:51 GMT
>> IMHO the FW190 was a far better bird than the 109.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>(kim)

true to an extant, but willy's team and he himself were no
slouches in design.
the 262 was brillant no matter who designed it.
kim - 14 Aug 2006 00:51 GMT
> >> IMHO the FW190 was a far better bird than the 109.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> slouches in design.
> the 262 was brillant no matter who designed it.

"Wars are won by having a lot of something that's a little better, not by
having a little of something that's a lot better".

(kim)
e - 14 Aug 2006 01:52 GMT
>> In article <xM-dnQ7GuLvRpELZRVnysg@giganews.com>, "kim" <ntscuser@aol.com>
>wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
>(kim)

a quantum leap in tech is still a quantum leap.
the basic crate itself was not hugely better than the
heinkel, but certainly enough to be the better choice.
kim - 14 Aug 2006 02:22 GMT
> >> In article <xM-dnQ7GuLvRpELZRVnysg@giganews.com>, "kim" <ntscuser@aol.com>
> >wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> the basic crate itself was not hugely better than the
> heinkel, but certainly enough to be the better choice.

It's about numbers.
The Me262 (and Me163) could only be deployed in numbers which had a
negligible effect on the allied war effort.
It's even possible they had a net-negative effect.
How many desperately-needed German fighters were taken off front line line
duties in order to protect Me262 and Me163 bases?

Likewise in England it was the Spitfire and Lancaster getting all the glory
while the Hurricane and Wellington were doing all the donkey work.

(kim)
Rufus - 14 Aug 2006 02:49 GMT
>>In article <lIWdnfZb6-B4J0LZRVny3w@giganews.com>, "kim" <ntscuser@aol.com>
>
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
>
> (kim)

If you look at the numbers, and consider that all of the German aces
were three-digit shooters, what does that say about the capabilities of
ANY aircraft other than that we could build planes faster than the
Germans could shoot them down?

Not so much a "negligable effect on the war effort" as it is a statement
about the infrastructure and manufacturing capacity of the
Allies....even more so, considering that we in the U.S. weren't getting
bombed regularly while we were trying to manufactuer said armaments.  If
109s, 190s, and even 262s had been of "negligable effect", the war
should have ended much sooner.

Signature

     - Rufus

AussieRob - 14 Aug 2006 05:14 GMT
I've posted this here before, but in the interests of keeping us all
informed, I'll do it again!  

Have a look around and find a book titled "Why the Allies Won", by Richard
Overy (Amazon has it, or try your local library - remember them?) It's a
refreshing look at the whys of the Allied victory - like someone said
hereabouts, we built more than they could shoot down. Full of interesting
information and telling reasons why the Germans lost.

Definately recommended.

Rob
kim - 14 Aug 2006 13:12 GMT
> I've posted this here before, but in the interests of keeping us all
> informed, I'll do it again!
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> hereabouts, we built more than they could shoot down. Full of interesting
> information and telling reasons why the Germans lost.

It wasn't just about numbers. Allied fighters flew top-cover which meant
they always operated at optimum speed and altitude whereas German jets and
rockets had to reduce speed and altitude dramatically in order to attack
allied bombers. That made them sitting ducks for allied fighters.

(kim)
e - 14 Aug 2006 15:24 GMT
>> I've posted this here before, but in the interests of keeping us all
>> informed, I'll do it again!
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>(kim)

worst was take-off and landing. yeager speaks of hanging
around airfields waiting for them to land where he would
just jump on their tales and blamo.
AussieRob - 15 Aug 2006 08:51 GMT
someone@some.domain (e) wrote in

> worst was take-off and landing. yeager speaks of hanging
> around airfields waiting for them to land where he would
> just jump on their tales and blamo.

Well, that's hardly sporting, is it? It's just not cricket, what what.

Rob
e - 15 Aug 2006 15:05 GMT
>someone@some.domain (e) wrote in
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Rob

when it comes to a fight, there's a choice, i'm dead or he's
dead.. i kinda prefer he's dead. fair ain't in it, the
fustest with the mostest is gonna win. i want to win.
-some civil war guy who lost
Rufus - 15 Aug 2006 19:46 GMT
>>someone@some.domain (e) wrote in
>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> fustest with the mostest is gonna win. i want to win.
> -some civil war guy who lost

As I like to say - there's no such thing as a "fair" fight...not if you
want to win.  If you want to win you try to make it as "unfair" as
possible - with the outcome being a dead opponent.  Period.

Signature

     - Rufus

Gray Ghost - 15 Aug 2006 22:32 GMT
>> In article <Xns9820B90B11AD2rgrinbergspamspam@203.87.95.150>,
>> AussieRob <haha@happyland.co.mars> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> want to win.  If you want to win you try to make it as "unfair" as
> possible - with the outcome being a dead opponent.  Period.

Which is why I get nauseated at every idiot mention of "proportionality" of
response. These intellectual black holes haven't a clue as to how to win a
card game, let alone a war.

Frank
e - 15 Aug 2006 23:58 GMT
>>> In article <Xns9820B90B11AD2rgrinbergspamspam@203.87.95.150>,
>>> AussieRob <haha@happyland.co.mars> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
>Frank

yes, come at me with a close fist and i have no qualms about
blowing big holes through you. if you start it, don't expect
any reasonable response, expect as much as i can give
without injuring myself.
Rufus - 14 Aug 2006 20:26 GMT
>>I've posted this here before, but in the interests of keeping us all
>>informed, I'll do it again!
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> (kim)

Sort of...

Signature

     - Rufus

e - 14 Aug 2006 15:22 GMT
>I've posted this here before, but in the interests of keeping us all
>informed, I'll do it again!  
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>Rob

that's kind of an old and obvious idea. are there new
insights that make this stand out? always up for a fresh
read.....
AussieRob - 15 Aug 2006 09:02 GMT
> that's kind of an old and obvious idea. are there new
> insights that make this stand out? always up for a fresh
> read.....

Don't know about fresh insights, but it does look less at the military
situation than the social and political situation facing the major
combatants. It's been a while since I read it, but I recall being quite
horrified at the way the author slaughters the 'sacred cows' of WW2 legend,
then goes on to explain the whys and wherefores, making you accept his
point of view along the way. He's actually gone back to primary source
documents from UK, US, Russia and Germany (now that they're available with
the end of the Cold War etc) instead of rehashing someone elses book and
calling it research.

But the 'we built 'em too fast' does hold true - at least as a simple
explanation. Overy looks at WHY we managed to build equipment faster than
the enemy, from a social,political and industrial standpoint. He also looks
at the personalities of the major leaders of the various countries. Sounds
boringly tedious, but it's not. There's a lot of fascinating facts and
figures quoted, none of which I can remember correctly now, but they are
certainly eye-opening.

Get it, read it - IMO, well worth the effort.
Rob
e - 15 Aug 2006 15:07 GMT
>> that's kind of an old and obvious idea. are there new
>> insights that make this stand out? always up for a fresh
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>Get it, read it - IMO, well worth the effort.
>Rob

ah, i do love revisionist histoey based on source. i shall
bug the library to get it.
Gray Ghost - 15 Aug 2006 22:51 GMT
>> that's kind of an old and obvious idea. are there new
>> insights that make this stand out? always up for a fresh  read.....
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> Get it, read it - IMO, well worth the effort.
> Rob

Indeed. I found it a very enlightening read. But it isn't the first book to
assess it correctly. I have a book on naval warfare written in 1942. The
writer very astutely evaluated the previous 2 to 3 years and projected
eventual victory. If I can recall correctly it had to do with power
projection, the ability to collect supplies from anywhere in the world and
attack anywhere relatively undisturbed by enemy naval elements. The thrust
was that the allies had ports including refueling and repair facilities
throughout much of the world, whereas the Axis did not and the ability to
build more. It is interesting that he made this observation in 1942 while
the U-boats were still a considerable threat.

I always thought the loss of the Graf Spee and the Bismark were inevitable.
Scharnhorst and Gneisenau certainly had some success but the writng was
clearly on the wall for deploying capital ships in ones and twos with no
escort (read that as air protection). Imagine if a carrier had been with
Bismark and fighters had been able to have a go at the Swordfish. I never
quite understood why the Germans didn't use the Arados more aggressively for
defense, they were well armed and faster than the Swordfish.

Interesting stuff.

Frank
kim - 14 Aug 2006 12:55 GMT
> >>In article <lIWdnfZb6-B4J0LZRVny3w@giganews.com>, "kim" <ntscuser@aol.com>
> >
[quoted text clipped - 56 lines]
> 109s, 190s, and even 262s had been of "negligable effect", the war
> should have ended much sooner.

I said that the Me262's and Me163's had a negligible effect - due to their
small numbers - not the Me109 and FW190.

(kim)
e - 14 Aug 2006 15:28 GMT
>> >>In article <lIWdnfZb6-B4J0LZRVny3w@giganews.com>, "kim"
><ntscuser@aol.com>
[quoted text clipped - 65 lines]
>
>(kim)

most wellington's and hurris were out of their original
jobs. the whimpeys were trainers and tugs and the hurris
were mostly grounf attack and nuisance bombers.
they did not comprise much of the main bomber or fighter
force after late 43.
even the fastest and best version of the hurricane were an
easy mark for the later 190's and 109's.
kim - 14 Aug 2006 19:22 GMT
> >> >>In article <lIWdnfZb6-B4J0LZRVny3w@giganews.com>, "kim"
> ><ntscuser@aol.com>
[quoted text clipped - 71 lines]
> they did not comprise much of the main bomber or fighter
> force after late 43.

That was a typo. I was thinking of the Haliax heavy bomber.

> even the fastest and best version of the hurricane were an
> easy mark for the later 190's and 109's.

But the Hurricane was available in numbers when it was needed most in 1940.

(kim)
e - 14 Aug 2006 20:43 GMT
>> In article <MP-dnfTbX-he-X3ZnZ2dnUVZ8qSdnZ2d@giganews.com>, "kim"
>>
[quoted text clipped - 80 lines]
>
>That was a typo. I was thinking of the Haliax heavy bomber.
ok, i understand typoers.

>> even the fastest and best version of the hurricane were an
>> easy mark for the later 190's and 109's.
>
>But the Hurricane was available in numbers when it was needed most in 1940.
>
>(kim)

indeed, but that wasn't your claim. i know what you meant,
though.
Rufus - 14 Aug 2006 20:25 GMT
>>>It's about numbers.
>>>The Me262 (and Me163) could only be deployed in numbers which had a
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> (kim)

I know - I was just being all-encompassing, as I have given up trying to
define "which fighter was better" a long time ago.

Signature

     - Rufus

Bill Woodier - 15 Aug 2006 01:26 GMT
Or, in the case of the Sherman tank..............Wars are won by more of
having more of something not as good than something much better can knock
out   ;~)
Signature

Cheers:  Bill Woodier
In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been
granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger.
I do not shrink from this responsibility -- I welcome it.
     My Home Page:  http://www.bill-woodier.com/home.htm
--

>> In article <xM-dnQ7GuLvRpELZRVnysg@giganews.com>, "kim"
>> <ntscuser@aol.com>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> (kim)
William H. Shuey - 15 Aug 2006 06:06 GMT
> Or, in the case of the Sherman tank..............Wars are won by more of
> having more of something not as good than something much better can knock
> out   ;~)
> --

    Who was it said "You fight a war with what you've got, not what you'd
like to have"!
    Ex. Curtiss P-40, Bell P-39, Hawker Hurricane, Bf-109, Sherman and
Grant/Lee, etc:

                            Bill Shuey
kim - 15 Aug 2006 13:23 GMT
> Or, in the case of the Sherman tank..............Wars are won by more of
> having more of something not as good than something much better can knock
> out   ;~)

The M4 Sherman was "a little better" than the the M3 Lee/Grant which it
replaced. That took the German army completely by surprise. Likewise the
Russian T32 and upgunned later versions of both the Sherman and T32.

(kim)
Vodnik - 12 Aug 2006 22:08 GMT
> The subject of the new kit is the last WWII M4 tank used by Colonel
> Creighton Abrams after he took off Combat Command B of the 4th Armored
> Division. It represents an early production M4A3 with the horizontal
> volute spring suspension, better known as either HVSS or "Easy 8"
> after its test designation, single-pin T66 cast tracks, a 76mm gun with
> muzzle brake in the later version of the T23-derived cast turret

Thunderbolt VII used early T23 turret with split loader's hatch and machine
gun ring. DML was able to obtain rare pictures of this tank which clearly
show this feature.

Pawel
AMPSOne@aol.com - 12 Aug 2006 22:21 GMT
> > The subject of the new kit is the last WWII M4 tank used by Colonel
> > Creighton Abrams after he took off Combat Command B of the 4th Armored
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Pawel

Roger that. Both turret shells are included though as the other tanks
did not have the early turret.

Cookie Sewell
e - 12 Aug 2006 23:14 GMT
>> > The subject of the new kit is the last WWII M4 tank used by Colonel
>> > Creighton Abrams after he took off Combat Command B of the 4th Armored
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>Cookie Sewell

ok guys, now i got to get me one of those.
 
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