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Model Forum / General / Models / December 2006Good Close-ups of a pranged Bone
Frakkin' morons didn't put the gear down. $7.9M of your tax dollars at work.... http://www.zianet.com/tedmorris/dg/bombers4.html Payback should come out of ~their~ wallets! > Frakkin' morons didn't put the gear down. $7.9M of your tax dollars at > work.... [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Apparently, the landing gear warning lights and audio alarms weren't working either.  SignatureBill in Hamptonburgh, NY To email, delete the double zeroes after @ Apparently, the crew's brains weren't working either. Call-response items on a checklist are only useful if you follow the checklist and do your job. I wonder if they will get a "Definately Promote"? Jim Williams Old BUFF Crewmember > Apparently, the crew's brains weren't working either. Call-response items > on a checklist are only useful if you follow the checklist and do your job. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Jim Williams > Old BUFF Crewmember My neighbor told me about flying training in WW II Seems that on his first solo flight in a T 6 he came in for the landing absolutely perfect. Except he stalled the aircraft 5 feet above the runway. He said that was the hardest 5 feet he ever fell. (it hurt) Now the Bone guys, who knows what they were thinking. Isn't there a gear warning horn in the cockpit ? Besides looking at the gear handle, I mean didn't anyone LOOK ? (well obviously not......) I've been on some long flights, 11hrs isn't that long. (but then I'm not the one strapped into an ejection seat for those 11hrs.) AM > Frakkin' morons didn't put the gear down. $7.9M of your tax dollars at > work.... > > http://www.zianet.com/tedmorris/dg/bombers4.html > > Payback should come out of ~their~ wallets! She'll fly again... Signature- Rufus > Frakkin' morons didn't put the gear down. $7.9M of your tax dollars at > work.... > > http://www.zianet.com/tedmorris/dg/bombers4.html > > Payback should come out of ~their~ wallets! That's an awful lot of duct tape in that first picture! Tom Well, none of the four crewmen; pilot, co-pilot, nav, and bomb-nav will ever fly a military aircraft again. Does that make you feel any better? SignatureCheers: Bill Woodier In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger. I do not shrink from this responsibility -- I welcome it. My Home Page: http://www.bill-woodier.com/home.htm -- >> Frakkin' morons didn't put the gear down. $7.9M of your tax dollars at >> work.... [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Tom > Well, none of the four crewmen; pilot, co-pilot, nav, and bomb-nav will ever > fly a military aircraft again. Does that make you feel any better? > -- Not really. I would expect at least that much of a punishment. What would make me feel better is to know what they were (or were not) thinking when they had this "slight mishap". Were they horsin' around, drunk, high or just terminally stupid? Or did they experience some sort of collective hallucination? Or was this just blamed on some UFO? Peteski >> Well, none of the four crewmen; pilot, co-pilot, nav, and bomb-nav will ever >> fly a military aircraft again. Does that make you feel any better? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Peteski or were they freaked out from the fire? did they have a bunch of malfunctions that had them preoccupied? stupid mistake, sure, but what else was going on? i suspect none of them wanted to throw away military careers. >>>Well, none of the four crewmen; pilot, co-pilot, nav, and bomb-nav will ever >>>fly a military aircraft again. Does that make you feel any better? [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > stupid mistake, sure, but what else was going on? i suspect > none of them wanted to throw away military careers. Have to agree...WHEN did the stated fire start, and what was the procedure for dealing with it? One might quickly assume the fire started during the skid, but it doesn't look like it from the pictures. I don't see any eveidence of external scorching, so I would have to asssume an internal fire...so what systems might have been affected inflight if indeed it was an inflight fire? How big was the fire? Was it a compound emergency? Series of cascading system failures? Maybe the proceedure if you can't get all three down and locked (or a at least a set of two specific gear down and locked) is to belly land. Dunno...haven't seen either the B1B DASH1 or the Incident Report. Maybe the crew couldn't GET the gear down...had that happen with a fire on a Harrier once...at NIGHT. Pilot landed skidding down the runway on the gunpacks - no fire, didn't scrape either the nose or tail...the he was awarded the Air medal later that year. (Same jet caught fire - in the same wire bundle, with the same crewman - about two weeks later during a daylight op. Got the gear down that time...but he was lucky.) So the crew may actually be deserving of a BZ...the jet looks repairable to me...could have been a lot worse. I also thinks it's interesting that you can't read the jet's serial number in ANY of these shots...two numbers at most. I'd bet these are USAF released photos, and if there were anything particularly embarrassing to the Branch concering the incident, they woudn't have cleared the PAO. Bottom line is nobody here knows what actually happened. Signature- Rufus >> In article <1165455355.808259.96360@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com>, "Peter W." >> [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > >Bottom line is nobody here knows what actually happened. zackly. thanks for putting better voice to my doubts. > Maybe the crew couldn't GET the gear down...had that happen with a > fire on a Harrier once...at NIGHT. Pilot landed skidding down the > runway on the gunpacks - no fire, didn't scrape either the nose or > tail...the he was awarded the Air medal later that year. nodnodnod I've seen the same sort of thing. It was amazing. The gunpods were written off, of course, but there wasn't a scratch on the jet! SignatureEnzo I wear the cheese. It does not wear me. >>Maybe the crew couldn't GET the gear down...had that happen with a >>fire on a Harrier once...at NIGHT. Pilot landed skidding down the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > nodnodnod I've seen the same sort of thing. It was amazing. The gunpods > were written off, of course, but there wasn't a scratch on the jet! Yeah - one of the things we discoverd post-mortem out of this particular incident was that if this particular wire bundle torched the way it did, there was no electrical path to get the gear down - not even with Emergency Extend. We did a write up and a Service Bulletin was issued to correct the problem. All currently flying AV8s should be free of this particular issue now. Signature- Rufus Even though your tone was rather smart-assed, I'm going to reply to your comments rationally and factually. I'm afraid none of your suggested causes apply. They were not drunk. They were not horsing around. They were neither high nor terminally stupid nor experienced a collective hallucination, Further, there was no mention of a UFO. What did happen was that they were was at the end of an extremely long flight and there was, of course, no augmented crew so they were all very fatigued. Yes, there was a warning signal that the gear was not down but they did not say why they did not react to it. Think about this: Perhaps you've never been tired, really tired. I don't mean being awake BS'ing with buddies or watching TV. I mean like being awake and constantly busy, having to concentrate intensely for 16-18 hours. Sometimes when you're extremely tired like that the mind can "skip" on you a bit causing you to zone out - actually dozing with your eyes wide open. I'm sure you've never done anything like driving home at 0300 or so after a long night (and I'm not talking booze, just being awake for a long time) and blown through a stop sign without even realizing it or let your car creep off the edge of the pavement? I don't know about you but I'm human and I've been that tired several times during my 29+ years of military service. Hell, I zoned out right in the middle of a firefight once. It was only for a couple seconds but that's all it takes. How about giving them a break, huh. They screwed up. They know they screwed up. The entire aviation community knows they screwed up. I suspect you've never had wings but if you had, you'd understand that losing their wings is punishment enough. Let it be unless you're hunting for a couple more pounds of flesh. SignatureCheers: Bill Woodier In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger. I do not shrink from this responsibility -- I welcome it. My Home Page: http://www.bill-woodier.com/home.htm -- >> Well, none of the four crewmen; pilot, co-pilot, nav, and bomb-nav will >> ever [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Peteski > Even though your tone was rather smart-assed, I'm going to reply to your > comments rationally and factually. You correctly judged my tone. > I'm afraid none of your suggested causes apply. They were not drunk. They > were not horsing around. They were neither high nor terminally stupid nor [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > fatigued. Yes, there was a warning signal that the gear was not down but > they did not say why they did not react to it. Sounds like you have some insight into the story. > Think about this: Perhaps you've never been tired, really tired. I don't > mean being awake BS'ing with buddies or watching TV. I mean like being [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Hell, I zoned out right in the middle of a firefight once. It was only for > a couple seconds but that's all it takes. I work grave-yard shift (with at least 10-hour nights). Some nights are more stresful than others. Sometimes I'm up for close to 24 hours straight. Yes, I sometimes somewhat zone out while driving home in the early morning, but not enough to make a major judgement error (so far). And I'm not flying a plane either... > How about giving them a break, huh. They screwed up. They know they > screwed up. The entire aviation community knows they screwed up. I suspect > you've never had wings but if you had, you'd understand that losing their > wings is punishment enough. Let it be unless you're hunting for a couple > more pounds of flesh. I'm just surprised that this problem occured with more than one person in the cockpit. If I was driving home from work (tired) and had someone with me in the car the chances are that one of us would do something to avoid a mishap. But again, I don't have the complete story here to make any judgements. You're right - they are screwed. I do feel really sorry for them but the scope of their mishap is a bit larger than driving my car up a curb or scraping against some parked cars. Peteski > -- > Cheers: Bill Woodier [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > > > Peteski > I'm just surprised that this problem occured with more than one person > in the cockpit. My father worked on aircraft for many many years. And he can tell ya all about the people who have yanked the gear handle UP while the plane was still on the ground... (back in the prop days) Told me it was quite impressive to stand there and watch it suddenly happen right in front of you. SignatureAM http://sctuser.home.comcast.net OS X 10.3.9 >> I'm just surprised that this problem occured with more than one >> person in the cockpit. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Told me it was quite impressive to stand there and > watch it suddenly happen right in front of you. That's why they put Weight On Wheels switches in the circuit these days. If the oleo is compressed, a microswitch is opened and the retract circuit is broken. Once the oleo becomes fully extended, the microswitch closes and the circuit is made again. One "clever" trick that you might see done is to select gear up as the aircraft commences its take-off roll. As soon as the wheels leave the deck the gear retracts. It's quite spectacular but the pilot has to be absolutely certain that the jet has the speed to remain airworthy. RAF Honington in Suffolk, England, has/had a hump in the middle of the runway. I've seen two Buccaneers and a Hunter leave the ground temporarily over that hump, only to have their gear retract because the pilot had selected "gear up" during the roll. All three jets ended up on their bellies! SignatureEnzo I wear the cheese. It does not wear me. >>>I'm just surprised that this problem occured with more than one >>>person in the cockpit. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > selected "gear up" during the roll. All three jets ended up on their > bellies! Heh...heh-heh...we had a guy leave the factory on a Fleet delivery with an F/A-18 that did that coming out of a fuel stop on a level runway...just because weight is "off wheels" don't necessarily mean the airplane is flying, dude... Jet got light, gear came up, jet settled to the runway and went skidding to the end on the external tanks. Good thing he had three on...and they didn't flame. Jet came back to the factory on the back of a flatbed...gear up and with the damaged tanks still in place. Hoisted it off, surveyed it, found it to still be straight, put three more EFT on it and different pilot in it and delivered it. Signature- Rufus > Heh...heh-heh...we had a guy leave the factory on a Fleet delivery > with an F/A-18 that did that coming out of a fuel stop on a level [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > found it to still be straight, put three more EFT on it and different > pilot in it and delivered it. LOL The riggers on our squadron used to have a stock answer for what was required for any repair: "Speedtape and green paint!" Whatever state a jet came back in, someone would survey the damage, nod sagely and solemnly intone "yep... bit of speedtape and green paint..." The funny part of that was about 25% of the time that's actually all they used!!! SignatureEnzo I wear the cheese. It does not wear me. >>Heh...heh-heh...we had a guy leave the factory on a Fleet delivery >>with an F/A-18 that did that coming out of a fuel stop on a level [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > The funny part of that was about 25% of the time that's actually all they > used!!! Yup - aviation's answer to duct-tape! Signature- Rufus See specific comments inserted below. SignatureCheers: Bill Woodier In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger. I do not shrink from this responsibility -- I welcome it. My Home Page: http://www.bill-woodier.com/home.htm -- >> Even though your tone was rather smart-assed, I'm going to reply to your >> comments rationally and factually. > > You correctly judged my tone. Well, it's good to know that at least I have not yet lost my power of perception. >> I'm afraid none of your suggested causes apply. They were not drunk. >> They [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Sounds like you have some insight into the story. I do. One of my guys was is a B-2 pilot; he flew it into the Andrews airshow a couple years ago. He knows and has flown with the pilots. >> Think about this: Perhaps you've never been tired, really tired. I >> don't [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > early morning, but not enough to make a major judgement error (so far). > And I'm not flying a plane either... Then you know what I'm talking about but, regarding doing so at a "significant monent," see my comment above. >> How about giving them a break, huh. They screwed up. They know they >> screwed up. The entire aviation community knows they screwed up. I [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > something to avoid a mishap. But again, I don't have the complete > story here to make any judgements. True, you don't. > You're right - they are screwed. I do feel really sorry for them but > the scope of their mishap is a bit larger than driving my car up a curb > or scraping against some parked cars. Perhaps, but you could be just as dead and so could others around you if it gone that way. You can keep speculating if it you want, sharpen your knife and slice off another pound of flesh if it gives you pleasure, but I've probably already said all I should about this. > See specific comments inserted below. > For some reason my Reply here doesn't include the quoted messages, so I'll remark without them. Not taking everything I read on the net for granted, I searched for an official site that gave an official cause on the accident and could not find one. I found another site, other than the one provided, and it was a carbon copy of the first. I also checked the official USAF website and they have an article about the accident in May and that the accident is under investigation. http://www.af.mil/news/story_print.asp?storyID=123020113 But, as of this date, no AF investigation results have been published. Just because someone writes "The Air Force Accident Investigation concluded the pilots forgot to lower the landing gear" doesn't always make it true. SignatureBill in Hamptonburgh, NY To email, delete the double zeroes after @ >> See specific comments inserted below. >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > concluded the pilots forgot to lower the landing gear" doesn't always > make it true. I wouldn't expect to find any further "official" info on the incident, seeing as how the Board may not be complete with it's findings, it was a military mishap and that information is not generally made public, and it happened outside of CONUS - so I wouldn't expect the FAA to have a parallel investigation running which possibly would be in the public domain (which was why I tried to read the tail number in the photos...). Signature- Rufus >>> See specific comments inserted below. >>> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > public domain (which was why I tried to read the tail number in the > photos...). I realize that I may have missed the investigative results in my search, but if the AF investigation has not been completed and posted, then where did the story come from that it was pilot(s) error? The AF website has investigative conclusions on two other B-1b accidents, and an F-16. B-1B http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?storyID=123014046 and B-1B http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?storyID=123010769 F-16 http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?storyID=123025555 You can search for others in the archives at the bottom of each page here http://www.af.mil/news/ SignatureBill in Hamptonburgh, NY To email, delete the double zeroes after @ >>>> See specific comments inserted below. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > You can search for others in the archives at the bottom of each page here > http://www.af.mil/news/ That's interesting...as far as I know, it's not the US Navy's habit to post the results of mishap board investigations publicly, so that's the model I was going by because that's what I'm familiar with. As I was Googling, I found quite a few public articles on B1B mishaps, but they were all old and smacked of trying to get the program cancelled, so I disregarded them. The USAF B1B incident accounts you cite are pretty old too (on the order of a year) given military op tempo (as I'm familiar with it). So I'd still speculate that since this specific incident is not posted on the USAF mil-news site that the investigation may still be ongoing; and that the reference to "pilot error" in the original link (come on - the "People's Provisional Democratic Republic of Diego Garcia"?..yeah, that smacks of credibility...although THEY don't say anything about "pilot error" - an RMS poster did...) was also an uneducated leap to a conclusion based solely on the circumstances of a gear up landing. I won't believe much of anything about what happened to "SLIP 57" until I see the official USAF write up...now that I know it should (eventually) be available. Signature- Rufus >> I realize that I may have missed the investigative results in my >> search, but if the AF investigation has not been completed and posted, [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > I see the official USAF write up...now that I know it should > (eventually) be available. The investigations cited are not mishap (safety) investigations, but rather legal investigations (in the F-16 article, it is listed as an Accident Investigation Board (AIB)- safety investigations are Mishap Investigation Boards). Those (AIBs) are releasable and become part of the public record once published. The MIBs are covered under executive privilege, and are not generally released (they have been leaked from time to time, however). Mike W. >>> I realize that I may have missed the investigative results in my >>> search, but if the AF investigation has not been completed and [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > Mike W. Yeah...I keep forgetting that the USAF has developed a habit of actually prosecuting personel for mistakes...the Navy doesn't do that, to my knowledge. Signature- Rufus >>>> I realize that I may have missed the investigative results in my >>>> search, but if the AF investigation has not been completed and [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] >prosecuting personel for mistakes...the Navy doesn't do that, to my >knowledge. but accidents can put a big dent on your career. hit one lousy sandbar..... >>> The investigations cited are not mishap (safety) investigations, but >>>rather legal investigations (in the F-16 article, it is listed as an [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > but accidents can put a big dent on your career. hit one > lousy sandbar..... Or fishing boat... Signature- Rufus >>>> The investigations cited are not mishap (safety) investigations, but >>>>rather legal investigations (in the F-16 article, it is listed as an [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >Or fishing boat... horseplay. good way to kill. >>>>> The investigations cited are not mishap (safety) investigations, but >>>>>rather legal investigations (in the F-16 article, it is listed as an [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > horseplay. good way to kill. Yeah, or just plain cause a major nusiance...back when I was working T-45A, some guys were hosrsing around playing frisbee in the hangar during a break. They were done and putting the frisbee away, so one guy flung it at his bud...who missed...and it hit the button for the fire suppression system...and set it off. If you've never seen an AFFF system in full opeation (I have...twice now...) let me insure you, it's impressive. Flooded the hangar, a few aircraft in various states of teardown, slipped some schedules... Signature- Rufus >>>>>> The investigations cited are not mishap (safety) investigations, but >>>>>>rather legal investigations (in the F-16 article, it is listed as an [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >now...) let me insure you, it's impressive. Flooded the hangar, a few >aircraft in various states of teardown, slipped some schedules... that's intend to suppress huge chemical fires, right? that would be impressive. i saw a gas station system go off and that was pretty freaky. >>>>>>>The investigations cited are not mishap (safety) investigations, but >>>>>>>rather legal investigations (in the F-16 article, it is listed as an [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > would be impressive. i saw a gas station system go off and > that was pretty freaky. Systems in aircraft hangars are spec'ed to supress a max-stacked fuel fire, I should think. Wittnessed a kid shell out of a T-2 about a half mile short of the approach end while I was down in Kingsville...now THAT was a fireball. (Kid lived, BTW.) Our local firefighters have an F-4 hulk they practice on occasionally...even that practice fire is pretty impressive. When the suppression system went off in our hangar (which will stack about five jets comfortably) it flooded the place knee deep - even with the hangar doors open. Signature- Rufus >>>>>>>>The investigations cited are not mishap (safety) investigations, but >>>>>>>>rather legal investigations (in the F-16 article, it is listed as an [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] >jets comfortably) it flooded the place knee deep - even with the hangar >doors open. i believe damn! would cover that. >>>>>horseplay. good way to kill. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > i believe damn! would cover that. Stuff smells nasty, too...from what I'm told it's made from organic materials - slaughterhouse waste; non-edible cow parts - in oder to be both non-toxic and bio-degradable as well as surpress the fire. The organic stuff is there to help it form a persistant foam. Hangar smelled like a butchershop with the AC busted for awhile. Signature- Rufus >>>>>>horseplay. good way to kill. >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >organic stuff is there to help it form a persistant foam. Hangar >smelled like a butchershop with the AC busted for awhile. good thing it's in a low humidity place. somewhere with fat air would still stink. >>>>Systems in aircraft hangars are spec'ed to supress a max-stacked fuel >>>>fire, I should think. Wittnessed a kid shell out of a T-2 about a half [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > good thing it's in a low humidity place. somewhere with fat > air would still stink. ...the run-off troughs across hangar entrances take up that slack. That jet fuel smell is really just a hangar deodorizer. Signature- Rufus >>>>>Systems in aircraft hangars are spec'ed to supress a max-stacked fuel >>>>>fire, I should think. Wittnessed a kid shell out of a T-2 about a half [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >....the run-off troughs across hangar entrances take up that slack. That >jet fuel smell is really just a hangar deodorizer. oh yeah. playing with the emhar hermaphrodite. crappy plastic and sloppy fit, but i think it will build up. there's pe for the 1/72 but not for the 1/35, i think. <snip> > Perhaps, but you could be just as dead and so could others around you if it > gone that way. You can keep speculating if it you want, sharpen your knife > and slice off another pound of flesh if it gives you pleasure, but I've > probably already said all I should about this. It was never my intention to come through as "sharpening my knife and slicking off flesh". It was more "shaking my head in disbelief" tone. Now I see someone posted a more detailed report which seems to be related to this incident. Seems like it was an "operator error" after all. As I don't walk around my car kicking all 4 tires to see that thy're ok before I get in and drive, I suppose that I can excuse those pilots for failing to notice that their gear was up. :-) Peteski I never said it was not pilot error. The point of it all was just that they have been punished enough for their mistake, nothing more. SignatureCheers: Bill Woodier In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger. I do not shrink from this responsibility -- I welcome it. My Home Page: http://www.bill-woodier.com/home.htm -- > <snip> >> Perhaps, but you could be just as dead and so could others around you if [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Peteski > I never said it was not pilot error. The point of it all was just that they > have been punished enough for their mistake, nothing more. > -- > Cheers: Bill Woodier Correct - you didn't. But the reliably looking article in "Why the B-1 landed gear-up" thread sure stated that. That's ok - no need to keep punishing those pilots by continuing this discussion. Peteski |
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