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1950's US Tanks - Why the Searchlights?

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crw59@earthlink.net - 23 Aug 2007 03:01 GMT
Seen several pics and kits with big searchlights on the mantle.  Why
just in this era of armor???

Craig
willshak - 23 Aug 2007 03:06 GMT
on 8/22/2007 10:01 PM crw59@earthlink.net said the following:
> Seen several pics and kits with big searchlights on the mantle.  Why
> just in this era of armor???
>
> Craig
>
>  

Because they didn't have night vision optics?

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Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

Don McIntyre - 23 Aug 2007 04:22 GMT
> on 8/22/2007 10:01 PM cr...@earthlink.net said the following:
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> In Hamptonburgh, NY
> To email, remove the double zeroes after @

I believe that these were infra-red searchlights. They shined IR light
that can't be seen by the naked eye, but worked like a searchlight for
the onboard IR sensors.

Don McIntyre
Clarksville, TN
Pat Flannery - 23 Aug 2007 08:15 GMT
> I believe that these were infra-red searchlights. They shined IR light
> that can't be seen by the naked eye, but worked like a searchlight for
> the onboard IR sensors.
>  

I don't know if we ever got into infrared systems on tanks as much as
the Russians and some other countries did after WW II;
The Russians sometimes had multiple infrared illumination lights on
their tanks and APCs - a large one mounted next to the main gun, and a
smaller one that the crew could rotate mounted on top of the turret.
Our tanks did carry IR sights that could pick up the glow of the Soviet
tank IR lamps (and I imagine their hot engine decks as well if the
frequency was right), but most of the pictures of our tanks I've seen
seem to show the turret searchlight being in the visible spectrum - and
extremely powerful to light up targets at long ranges, and dazzle
whatever or whoever it was aimed at while the tank engaged it.

Pat
CCBlack - 23 Aug 2007 04:31 GMT
> willshak wrote:
> Because they didn't have night vision optics?

    Actually I believe they did have night vision goggles that the
tank crew used in conjuction with the Xenon searchlights.  The
searchlight could be switched ( using a filter ) from a high power
visible ' white light ' to an IR beam.  The IR beam was invisible to
the naked eye.  That's where special IR binoculars used by the tank
crew were used to survey the battlefield illumnated by the IR light.
    Yeah I know ... you thought they were out there on the
battlefield using a 75 million candlepower searchlight at night.  Yup,
something like that would definately give away your position ... and
blind you for the rest of the night.  =]

Chris
Pat Flannery - 23 Aug 2007 08:28 GMT
> .
>      Yeah I know ... you thought they were out there on the
> battlefield using a 75 million candlepower searchlight at night.  Yup,
> something like that would definately give away your position ... and
> blind you for the rest of the night.  =]
>  

I've seen photos of them being used in the visible spectrum at night in
Vietnam.
I imagine if you are worried about infiltrators sneaking into the base
at night, using the tank to illuminate the perimeter for your own non-IR
equipped troops to fire on made sense.
About the only thing they would have been carrying that could destroy
the tank would be the RPG-7, and they had better hope they got a hit on
the first shot, as a lot of gunfire would converge on them after the
flash of the rocket was seen, revealing their position...followed in
short order by the tank's main gun round.
Back when my older brother was in Vietnam, they found that the proper
way to discourage snipers was to respond to an incoming rifle round with
a outgoing LAW antitank rocket.
Even if they didn't get a direct hit, the arrival of the rocket in the
vicinity of the sniper generally made him have second thoughts about
what he was going to do next. ;-)

Pat
vor92@yahoo.com - 23 Aug 2007 06:54 GMT
There's a book on the Golan '73 war that describes an IDF Cent platoon
set up on hills overlooking a road in  a crossfire (<400m).  When they
ambushed a Syrian tank column, one of the IDF tanks refused to turn on
their light & the CO had a fit on the radio
Pat Flannery - 23 Aug 2007 07:49 GMT
> Seen several pics and kits with big searchlights on the mantle.  Why
> just in this era of armor???
>  

It was for night combat; the Soviet armored forces got very big into
night combat using infrared lamps and gunsights during the 1950s through
the 80s (this was probably from getting their hands on ex-German
infrared systems such as were used on the Panther at the very end of the
war), and we figured we might have to fight at night.
The big searchlights came in very handy in Vietnam. I imagine the memory
of Japanese night attacks during WW II also played a part.

Pat
Carl Dershem - 24 Aug 2007 02:08 GMT
> Seen several pics and kits with big searchlights on the mantle.  Why
> just in this era of armor???

Search me!
:)

cd
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Bluepen - 24 Aug 2007 07:58 GMT
Where the hell are all the old tankers?  

I was on an M-60A1 Rise Passive tank in Germany in the late 70'.  The
tactic was to use the IR in conjunction with our passive sights, which
picked up the IR as well   The white light was used only once or twice
the entire time I was in the unit. We used it in practice gunnery. One
tank would illuminate the target for a few seconds while the others
took it under fire, turn it off and move.  Trying to hit a light at
distance at night is tough enough.  In combat conditions suddenly
having a white light in your face would be a nightmare and blind you
as well. We never did it for real, so I am not sure about the efficacy
of this tactic, but it sounds good.

The comment about Vietnam is correct.  Note that the M48-A3's used in
Nam used the old white-only light and the newer (and larger) one as
well later in the war.  Not all tanks in your pictures from the war
will have searchlights for several reasons, not the least of which was
they were subject to destruction from artillery or small arms fire. I
do know there were cases where the searchlights were used in the
defense of fire bases.  

We used the passive sights several times, but mostly at night gunnery,
where a small fire was burning in a can with diesel in it in front of
the target, providing enough light to discern the target at 1000
meters or so. We also used them on a field maneuver once where we
ambushed an aggressor unit in a valley at close range.  The passive
sights worked well, but I will tell  you that night gunnery under
remotely real conditions was not easy. Note that Passive means the
ability to use available light to see in the dark, not heat per se.  I
never used them enough to decide whether they picked up any
frequencies of heat other than visible light generated by heat
sources.

Yes, we had night vision goggles, but we used them almost exclusively
for night security operations as we had passive sights on the tanks
with telescopic abilities.  We were border troops (2nd ACR), so we
also used them on border patrols and had a searchlight scope per tank
to use in security as well.

To cut to the chase, the searchlights were used on the M-48's and
M-60's until the M-60A3 with thermal sights came into use, making them
totally obsolete.

So, that is what I know/remember about searchlights on our tanks.
Pat Flannery - 24 Aug 2007 10:15 GMT
> Where the hell are all the old tankers?  
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> took it under fire, turn it off and move.
>  

Could you pick up the IR emissions of the Soviet tanks (engine heat) as
well as their IR illumination systems?

Pat
CCBlack - 24 Aug 2007 14:17 GMT
>Bluepen wrote:
> suddenly having a white light in your face would be a nightmare and
> blind you
> as well. We never did it for real, so I am not sure about the efficacy
> of this tactic, but it sounds good.

Works good on frogs  ;-]     Thanks Bluepen ... all very
interesting.

Chris
Gerald Owens - 24 Aug 2007 21:25 GMT
On Aug 22, 10:01 pm, "cr...@earthlink.net" <cr...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> Seen several pics and kits with big searchlights on the mantle.  Why
> just in this era of armor???
>
> Craig

As others have said, the active infrared systems appeared widely in
the 1950's (based on systems first fielded by the Germans in limited
numbers in 1944). Trouble was, once both sides had IR detectors, the
first guy to turn on his IR searchlight gets shot at. In the 1970's
the US went to starlight scopes (image intensifiers), which amplify
ambient starlight. They were passive, which was good, but would
"bloom" (screen goes all white), if there was a sudden flash of light,
like a gun firing. Not so good. Finally, supersensitive infrared
systems that did not require IR searchlights were developed and
introduced in the 1980's (thermal sights or FLIR in aviation circles).
These could see the glow of a metal vehicle heated by the sun or by
its own engine, and even the heat of a human body. So the infrared
searchlights and headlights disappeared again.
Gerald Owens
 
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