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RAF Jaguar GR3's

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Don Harstad - 22 Nov 2007 09:00 GMT
Were the gun muzzle troughs on these planes painted red, rusted natural
metal, or both?

Thanks

Don H.
Enzo Matrix - 22 Nov 2007 09:18 GMT
> Were the gun muzzle troughs on these planes painted red, rusted
> natural metal, or both?

They were dark natural metal. New aircraft, or those that had recently
undergone third-line maintenance, had a translucent dark red protective
coating. This coating is no doubt what gives the impression of rusted metal.
The coating would wear off fairly rapidly once the aircraft was returned to
service.

Signature

Enzo

I wear the cheese. It does not wear me.

Jim - 22 Nov 2007 15:36 GMT
>> Were the gun muzzle troughs on these planes painted red, rusted
>> natural metal, or both?

*****    Going off topic a bit.  Some time ago I posed this question on
Jaguars and although a lot of good information was gathered it kind of
drifted off topic, just like I'm doing to this thread, and I never did
seem to get a yes or no answer.

    So, that question was; would it be possible for a Jaguar of any mark
number to carry and use the sidewinder type missiles both above and
below the wing at the same time?  Just a theoretical question as I have
no idea of why they would want to load such an arrangement.

    Thanks.  cheers all.  Jim.
Enzo Matrix - 22 Nov 2007 17:37 GMT
>>> Were the gun muzzle troughs on these planes painted red, rusted
>>> natural metal, or both?
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> below the wing at the same time?  Just a theoretical question as I
> have no idea of why they would want to load such an arrangement.

It certainly wouldn't be possible for RAF Jaguars to *fire* Sidewinders from
the underwing pylons as those pylons didn't have the necessary circuitry.

Even if the necessary circuitry was in place, there would be little point in
putting AAMs under the wings as that would just take up a weapons station
that is sorely needed for something else. The inboard wing pylons invariably
carried fuel tanks - very necessary indeed. The outboard pylons were
originally used to carry weapons but when the Jaguar finally went to war
they were used instead for Phimat chaff pods and ECM pods.  The weapons were
carried on the centreline pylon.

Carriage of underwing AAMs would have led to the aircraft operating without
ECM support, which was not a good idea. In fact, I cannot remember *ever*
seeing any pictures of Jaguars of any mark carrying AAMs under the wings.

Signature

Enzo

I wear the cheese. It does not wear me.

Jim - 23 Nov 2007 02:32 GMT
>> So, that question was; would it be possible for a Jaguar of any mark
>> number to carry and use the sidewinder type missiles both above and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> It certainly wouldn't be possible for RAF Jaguars to *fire* Sidewinders from
> the underwing pylons as those pylons didn't have the necessary circuitry.

*******    That's it. Now I know.  Thank you.  Cheers and thanks again.  Jim.
Pat Flannery - 23 Nov 2007 05:06 GMT
>> It certainly wouldn't be possible for RAF Jaguars to *fire*
>> Sidewinders from the underwing pylons as those pylons didn't have the
>> necessary circuitry.
>
> *******    That's it. Now I know.  Thank you.  Cheers and thanks
> again.  Jim.

I went digging around in my "Modern Air Combat" book, and was surprised
to see the size of things that could be carried on the outer wing pylon
- up to Harpoon missiles and Exocets.

Pat
Pat Flannery - 23 Nov 2007 04:56 GMT
> Even if the necessary circuitry was in place, there would be little point in
> putting AAMs under the wings as that would just take up a weapons station
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> carried on the centreline pylon.
>  
Could the wing-top pylons carry anything other than Sidewinders?
On the Lightning you could mount ferry tanks, rocket pods, rocket
pod/drop tank combos, or even bombs...
although hoisting the bombs into position on top of the wings must have
been a real pain in the rear.

Pat
Enzo Matrix - 23 Nov 2007 09:24 GMT
>> Even if the necessary circuitry was in place, there would be little
>> point in putting AAMs under the wings as that would just take up a
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>> centreline pylon.
> Could the wing-top pylons carry anything other than Sidewinders?

MATRA Magic...   ;-)

> On the Lightning you could mount ferry tanks, rocket pods, rocket
> pod/drop tank combos, or even bombs...
> although hoisting the bombs into position on top of the wings must
> have been a real pain in the rear.

I don't believe that the overwing hardpoints were ever used operationally
for anything moe than ferry tanks.  There were a few photographs of expert
Lightning with strange weapons fits - I'm currently looking at a picture of
a Kuwaiti Mk53 on show at te Paris Air Show with underwing 2 in rocket pods
and overwing combined rocket/fuel pods, but the caption says that the
overwing pods were never used. One has to wonder about the mindset of the
person who designed that pod. I have loaded SNEB pods (the RAF equivalent of
the 2 in rocket pod) and can vouch for the huge flame that is produced by a
single rocket. I certainly wouldn't want such a flame impinging on a fuel
tank!!!

The Lightning never carried an air-to-ground targeting system, even though
the Mk6 version was marketed as a ground-attack machine and the Saudis used
it in that role. The delivery of bombs was no more accurate than it would
have been from a second world war fighter bomber - in fact given the
approach speed of the Lightning it was probably less so.  What was quite
accurate was the use of 2 in rockets, either from an underwing pod or the
forward weapons bay. These rockets could be aimed through the gunsight in a
shallow dive and were very effective when used in action. In 1969 there was
a border dispute between Saudi Arabia and South Yemen. RSAF Lightnings
attacked and destroyed the Yemeni invasion force and halted the invasion
with no ground engagement. This was the only combat use of the Lightning,
although the RAF came close to engaging Turkish forces during August 1974.
As Turkish forces approached the Sovereign Base Area at Dekheila, the
British army at Dekheila prepared to defend the base. Lightnings from
Akrotiri made successive low-level supersonic passes over the Turkish
troops, deterring them from advancing further and preventing a military
engagement between British and Turkish forces.

Signature

Enzo

I wear the cheese. It does not wear me.

Pat Flannery - 23 Nov 2007 17:23 GMT
> I don't believe that the overwing hardpoints were ever used operationally
> for anything moe than ferry tanks.  There were a few photographs of expert
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> tank!!!
>  

The French used them on Mirage III's also the designation was the Matra
JL-100; each housed 18 SNEB 68 mm rockets and a 50 gallons of fuel.
The Airfix 1/72 scale Mirage III kit was equipped with them.
There's a good history page on the Lightning here that discusses them:
http://www.vectorsite.net/aveeltg.html
The solid nose swing-wing naval Lightning would be a odd conversion
project http://www.vectorsite.net/aveeltg_09.png

Pat
kim - 25 Nov 2007 20:30 GMT
>> I don't believe that the overwing hardpoints were ever used
>> operationally for anything moe than ferry tanks.  There were a few
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> The solid nose swing-wing naval Lightning would be a odd conversion
> project http://www.vectorsite.net/aveeltg_09.png

Aeromodeller Annual once published a picture of a BAC model of a swing-wing
"Lightning" with much larger side-by-side engines (possibly Olympus) but
with the same annular air intake and a suggestion it was close to the then
top secret TSR2 project!

(kim)
Pat Flannery - 26 Nov 2007 01:43 GMT
> Aeromodeller Annual once published a picture of a BAC model of a swing-wing
> "Lightning" with much larger side-by-side engines (possibly Olympus) but
> with the same annular air intake and a suggestion it was close to the then
> top secret TSR2 project!
>  

I could see putting the swing wings on it, but moving the engines into a
side-by-side layout would have been a mighty big redesign.
In the top view of the swing-wing Lightning, with the wings out there's
a crude resemblance to the A-6 Intruder.
I once remarked to a private pilot from Britain that I thought the
Lightning was ugly...he almost took a swing at me. :-)
The TSR2 was a very attractive aircraft indeed, although I don't know
how successful export sales would have been as a Canberra
replacement...it was far more capable than a Canberra, but also far more
expensive, and probably had pretty high maintenance requirements as well.
A lot of smaller air forces probably didn't need a aircraft  that was
quite that capable. It seems to be largely biased for the nuclear strike
mission, and if you don't have nuclear weapons....

Pat
Mad-Modeller - 26 Nov 2007 05:58 GMT
Pat admitted:

> I once remarked to a private pilot from Britain that I thought the
> Lightning was ugly...he almost took a swing at me. :-)

I think it's a very simple design.  A double bottom tube with slab wings
and tail.  Too bad they forgot to include space for the fuel.  Kind of
cuts down on its usefulness.
Seriously, I've always liked them.  One of my earliest Airfix kits was a
Lightning.  I'd first seen it in a French aviation magazine that the
neighbourlady had. WWII warbride, ya know.

Bill Banaszak, MFE Sr.
Pat Flannery - 26 Nov 2007 10:58 GMT
> I think it's a very simple design.  A double bottom tube with slab wings
> and tail.  Too bad they forgot to include space for the fuel.  Kind of
> cuts down on its usefulness.
>  

In that respect it resembled the Su-7; it looks like a testbed that got
converted into a fighter rather than used as a stepping stone to a
better operational design.
Having the landing gear take up so much of the lower wing area was a bad
move as far as putting stores pylons on it.

> Seriously, I've always liked them.

To me, it always looked like a flying steam locomotive.

>   One of my earliest Airfix kits was a
> Lightning.

I had that kit - it wasn't bad by the standard of the time, which wasn't
saying much.
The Eldon "Match Kit" one was interesting in that it was of a earlier
variant with the rounded vertical fin-top.
I always liked the plane because it _was_ ugly.
Let's face it; the Phantom II wasn't going to win any beauty contests
either. ;-)

Pat
kim - 26 Nov 2007 11:07 GMT
>> I think it's a very simple design.  A double bottom tube with slab
>> wings and tail.  Too bad they forgot to include space for the fuel. Kind
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> To me, it always looked like a flying steam locomotive.

Be careful or you'll upset Enzo!

>>   One of my earliest Airfix kits was a
>> Lightning.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Let's face it; the Phantom II wasn't going to win any beauty contests
> either. ;-)

Now you've *really* upset Enzo! :o)

(kim)
Enzo Matrix - 26 Nov 2007 11:45 GMT
>>> I think it's a very simple design.  A double bottom tube with slab
>>> wings and tail.  Too bad they forgot to include space for the fuel.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Be careful or you'll upset Enzo!

LOL   But Pat has a point.  The Lightning was also *built* like a flying
steam loco!

Trap your fingers when closing the panels of most aircraft and you'll end up
with bruised fingers.  Do it with a Lightning and the fingers will end up
broken - if you're lucky!

>>>   One of my earliest Airfix kits was a
>>> Lightning.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Now you've *really* upset Enzo! :o)

LOL again.

Signature

Enzo

I wear the cheese. It does not wear me.

Enzo Matrix - 26 Nov 2007 11:48 GMT
> Pat admitted:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> wings and tail.  Too bad they forgot to include space for the fuel.
> Kind of cuts down on its usefulness.

That's pretty standard for British fighters.  The Lightning was designed as
a point-defence interceptor and followed the tradition of British fighters
having little endurance. The Spitfire was always hampered by short range, as
were the very early versions of the Hunter.  I believe that more Hunters and
Lightnings were lost because they simply ran out of fuel than for any other
reason.

Signature

Enzo

I wear the cheese. It does not wear me.

kim - 26 Nov 2007 14:13 GMT
>> Pat admitted:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> designed as a point-defence interceptor and followed the tradition of
> British fighters having little endurance.

That would make it the aerial equivalent of one of these:

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrrm822.htm

(kim)
Pat Flannery - 26 Nov 2007 19:01 GMT
> That's pretty standard for British fighters.  The Lightning was designed as
> a point-defence interceptor and followed the tradition of British fighters
> having little endurance.

Which is odd, because point defense is the one thing that Thunderbird
and Bloodhound missiles could probably do better that manned fighters.
Britain has the advantage of being small enough that you could
realistically put a SAM umbrella over every inch of it, unlike the U.S.
or Russia.
An aircraft with lower performance but longer range would have made
sense as a system that could patrol out to sea around Britain and
destroy some incoming enemy bombers before they reached SAM range.
Of course ballistic missile would make both the SAMs and Lightnings
ineffective.
The Soviets were also playing around with long range supersonic cruise
missiles that would have posed a severe challenge for fighters or SAMs
to intercept; the Tu-123 reconnaissance drone was a outgrowth of a
missile program: http://www.aviation.ru/Tu/Tu-123_139.jpg
http://www.airwar.ru/enc_e/spy/tu123.html
The engine developed for it was the one that ended up in the MiG-25
Foxbat in a modified form.

Pat
kim - 26 Nov 2007 23:44 GMT
>> That's pretty standard for British fighters.  The Lightning was
>> designed as a point-defence interceptor and followed the tradition
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> The engine developed for it was the one that ended up in the MiG-25
> Foxbat in a modified form.

One wonders where the fuel for a twin Olympus engined Lightning would have
gone? The wing root is ruled out as that would have contained the mechanism
for the variable geometry. I suppose they could have replaced the radar
housing with enough fuel to last about three seconds!

(kim)
RobG - 27 Nov 2007 03:43 GMT
Mad-Modeller <checkreplyto@nextline.com> wrote in news:474A7A3B.D41DFF05
@nextline.com:

> Pat admitted:
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Bill Banaszak, MFE Sr.

In the metal, the Lightning is awe-inspiring (even when it's cold and dark
and stuck in a museum), something I find sadly lacking in modern jets. And
that includes a full day out at RAF Fairford for RIAT this year, with all
the madness that entails (although the Finnish [IIRC] F-16 pilot who
launched 10 mins early on the Saturday put on a good show - stand on the
anchors, throttle through the gate, gear up at 10'AGL, pull the stick back
into a vertical climb until it disappeared...).

Sadly, I didn't get to Cape Town to see the Thunder City guys on this trip
- next time, for sure.

RobG
(The Aussie one)
Mad-Modeller - 27 Nov 2007 06:40 GMT
> Mad-Modeller <checkreplyto@nextline.com> wrote in news:474A7A3B.D41DFF05
> @nextline.com:
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> RobG
> (The Aussie one)

I tend to agree although I've never seen one in person.  
Funny thing about some airshows that I have been to - the Sabres and
Panthers have been more interesting to watch and feel than the latest
things.
I imagine a Lightning in the air overhead would be quite an experience!
I can't see it as an aerobatic performer but I think in straightline
runs it'd be stunning.

Bill Banaszak, MFE Sr.
Enzo Matrix - 27 Nov 2007 12:03 GMT
>> Mad-Modeller <checkreplyto@nextline.com> wrote in
>> news:474A7A3B.D41DFF05 @nextline.com:
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> experience! I can't see it as an aerobatic performer but I think in
> straightline runs it'd be stunning.

In the last decade or so of their service life, the RAF carefully conserved
the fatique life of the Lightning. The supposed replacement - Tornado ADV -
was continually slipping away into the future and the RAF was worried that
the Lightning fleet would become time-expired before Tornado was available
with anything other than Blue Circle radar.

Therefore during the final two years of their service, the RAF had a number
of Lightnings with (relatively) low airframe hours. For some odd reason
these were all Mk3s. They were all put on the airshow circuit and their
pilots were given carte blanche with their displays. Suspecting that never
again would the RAF have such a thoroughbred in its service and so this
opportunity would never come again, consequently the pilots all went utterly
harpic!  Take-offs were invariably those square turn thingies, with the jet
leaping off the deck in a few times its own length and disappearring
vertically into a clear blue sky.   Since then I have *never* seen air
displays providing anything like as much excitement.

Although outclassed by more modern fighters in terms of range, avionics and
weapons capabilities, even in its very last years, the Lightning was never
outclassed in terms of performance. In 1985, a Concorde was used as a
supersonic target in NATO trials. The only aircraft that could make an
intercept on the Concorde was the Lightning.

http://www.lightning.org.uk/archive/0410.php

Signature

Enzo

I wear the cheese. It does not wear me.

IanDTurner@aol.com - 27 Nov 2007 13:18 GMT
Only just picked up on this thread.

Re Jags -

Blast tubes and vents ( Maseratti tubes ) were bead blasted clean then
had a protective DK Red sunkerite coating applied. Yes, this did wear
to a metal/redish hue.

Re the overwings/AIM-9. RAF Jags were wired for AIM-9 on the outboard
pylons. This was, I believe,  removed from the GR's when the overwing
option became availble. T-Birds were still wired for them O/B to the
end.

Not sure about the T-Birds with GR wings fitted ................

Overwing pylons were 'dry' and only configured to take the rail for a
missile.

One odd fit I did see one day, and never again, was 3 tanks - CL and
inner plyons.
Enzo Matrix - 27 Nov 2007 18:27 GMT
> Only just picked up on this thread.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> had a protective DK Red sunkerite coating applied. Yes, this did wear
> to a metal/redish hue.

Suncorite!  I *knew* it had a name, but despite tacking my brains I just
couldn't remember it.  Thanks Ian.

I kept coming up with Flexane and Belzona, which were two other types of
protective coating in use at the time.

> Re the overwings/AIM-9. RAF Jags were wired for AIM-9 on the outboard
> pylons. This was, I believe,  removed from the GR's when the overwing
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Overwing pylons were 'dry' and only configured to take the rail for a
> missile.

Certainly we never issued any Sidewinders suitable for underwing carriage to
Jaguar units.  The ones we did issue were specifically banned from underwing
carriage, but that was purely for logistical reasons.

The Sidewinder is a very cheap missile to manufacture, partially because
there is no electronic stabilisation system. All the electronics deal with
guidance. Stabilisation is purely mechanical. Have a look at the outer
trailing edge of a Sidewinder wing (the wings are at the back, fins are at
the front). You will see that it has a rectangular hinged natural metal
section with an odd bump on top. These are called "rollerons" and they
affect the flight of the missile in a similar manner to ailerons.  Each
rolleron has a metal wheel partially buried inside it, with one part of the
wheel exposed to the airstream. As the edge of the wheel is serrated, the
wheel spins and acts like a gyroscope. Like all gyroscopes it attempts to
resist sideways movement, so forcing the rolleron in the opposite direction.
The rollerons therefore tend to damp any spinning motion of the missile.

A problem occurs when the missile is in captive flight (ie mounted on an
aircraft's missile rail). If the rollerons are allowed to act naturally,
they will even attempt to control the flight of the parent aircraft!  Their
effect is so great that the pilot can receive warnings from his
flight-control systems. To prevent this from happening, the rollerons have a
seismic lock. The rolleron wheel still spins in captive flight, but the
rolleron itself is not free to move on its hinge. When the missile is
launched, the extreme acceleration overcomes the seismic lock allowing the
rollerons to fulfil their purpose.

The original seismic lock was shaped like a triangle. It fitted into a tube
in the wing, underneath the rolleron cutout and projected upwards, locking
into a slot on the rolleron. When the lock was released, it slid clear of
the rolleron in the manner of a radio aerial being deployed. Wings fitted
with this type of lock were known as Mod1. The problem with the Mod1 wings
was that the rolleron wasn't held completely rigid and there was a certain
amount of chatter in captive flight.  This caused the trailing edge of the
rolleron and the seismic lock to wear at an unacceptable rate.  It should be
noted that the original design requirement of Sidewinder wings and fins was
that they be used once and then scrapped. The RAF could not afford this
policy (it caused all sorts of other problems related to the ablative
coating of the wings).

Therefore, an improved seismic lock was fitted. This still used the
triangular locking plate, but it was combined with a longitudinal plate that
held the rolleron firmly in position. Instead of sliding out on an
extendable rod, it pivoted backwards and downwards. Wings fitted with this
type of lock are referred to as Mod2. There were a number of minor
refinements (Mod2A, Mod2B etc).  A Mod1 Wing could be converted to a Mod2
wing, although the process was quite labour intensive.

The Mod2 wing solved the wear problems until the introduction of the Jaguar
overwing pylons. When missiles are carried underwing they are held in a
relatively benign environment. On the other hand those on overwing pylons
are in a much more boisterous airstream. It was found that the airstream
would tear the Mod2 locks out of the wings during captive flight, so
releasing the rollerons and giving the pilot a bit of a shock when his
aircraft refused to respond in the manner that he expected!  Trials showed
that the Mod1 locks were much more robust than the Mod2 locks. Rather than
introducing a Mod3 lock to solve the problem, the RAF settled for de-modding
a number of wings back to Mod1 standard.

These wings were only ever issued to Jaguar units. They were specifically
banned from underwing fitment, but there was no physical reason for that. We
only had a very small revenant stock of Mod1 wings, which were subject to
the original chatter problem and so wore out quicker that the main stock of
Mod2 wings. We had to carefully husband these wings as under no
circumstances were we allowed to de-mod any more Mod2s. It was a complete
pain in the arse dealing with them. I bet the missile boys finally breathed
a sigh of relief with the Jaguar was withdrawn.

Mind you, having said that, I have no doubt that something else will arise
that requires a non-standard fit. The RAF is very good at that sort of
thing.  Twenty years ago they introduced an electronic bomb fuze that was
supposed to reduce the number of different bomb/fuze build standards to from
three to one - known as an All Up Round. Sadly, there was never an armament
steering committee available to disseminate information about AURs and so by
the time I left the RAF, there are now a dozen different build standards! No
doubt with the introduction of Typhoon, and yet another hardpoint locking
mechanism, that has risen to eighteen   It's a long, sad story.

Signature

Enzo

I wear the cheese. It does not wear me.

Pat Flannery - 28 Nov 2007 00:00 GMT
> One odd fit I did see one day, and never again, was 3 tanks - CL and
> inner plyons.
>
>  

Long range ferry flight?

Pat
Wulf Corbett - 27 Nov 2007 20:23 GMT
>Therefore during the final two years of their service, the RAF had a number
>of Lightnings with (relatively) low airframe hours. For some odd reason
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>opportunity would never come again, consequently the pilots all went utterly
>harpic!

Commentary on tannoys at RAF Battle of Britain Open Day, RAF Leuchars,
many years ago...

"That was a fast flypast by the Lightning F Mk.3, at Mach 0.97. I know
it was Mach 0.97, because he's not allowed to fly any faster"

Ranks alongside the more minimalist
"And now, from the right, the Mighty Vulcan!"

which actually sounded like
"And now, from the right, the Mighty Vu**CCCCCHHHHHHHHOOOOOOOOO"

Wulf
Wulf Corbett - 27 Nov 2007 21:10 GMT
>"That was a fast flypast by the Lightning F Mk.3, at Mach 0.97. I know
>it was Mach 0.97, because he's not allowed to fly any faster"

And it's on telly RIGHT NOW - BBC2

Wulf
Mad-Modeller - 28 Nov 2007 05:45 GMT

> "That was a fast flypast by the Lightning F Mk.3, at Mach 0.97. I know
> it was Mach 0.97, because he's not allowed to fly any faster"

Sounds familiar.  I think I heard the same thing at Harrisburg when the
Tornado F.3 put on a display.  All I know was he was really moving and
we got a bit of a 'wumpf' when he passed.  Glad it wasn't any harder as
the hangars up there all have thousands of panes of glass windows in the
doors.

Bill Banaszak, MFE Sr.
Pat Flannery - 27 Nov 2007 23:57 GMT
> Suspecting that never
> again would the RAF have such a thoroughbred in its service and so this
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> displays providing anything like as much excitement.
>  
I've seen MiG-29s at a airshow; and they can do some pretty wild
maneuvers also.
The winner in this regard is supposed to be the Flanker in it's later
variants with thrust vectoring, which can rotate itself 360 degrees in
around two fuselage lengths by rearing straight up and falling over
backwards to end up in level forward flight again.
> Although outclassed by more modern fighters in terms of range, avionics and
> weapons capabilities, even in its very last years, the Lightning was never
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> http://www.lightning.org.uk/archive/0410.php
>  

One of the articles about the TSR.2 mentions a test flight where it went
into afterburner on one engine, and pulled away from its Lightning
escort, despite the Lightning revving up both afterburners in a attempt
to keep up:
http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/tsr2/history.php
I imagine this was due to the TSR.2's extremely low-drag
aerodynamics...especially compared to the Lightning.
At the time, the TSR.2 was probably the most aerodynamically clean
aircraft in the world, other that possibly the Lockheed "Blackbirds".

Pat
Pat Flannery - 27 Nov 2007 22:51 GMT
> I tend to agree although I've never seen one in person.  
> Funny thing about some airshows that I have been to - the Sabres and
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> runs it'd be stunning.
>  

I'd bet the sound would be fairly impressive also.
If you want to see films of some in flight, watch the movie "Those
Magnificent Men And Their Flying Machines"
Some Lightnings fly overhead at the end.

Pat
Mad-Modeller - 28 Nov 2007 05:51 GMT
> > I tend to agree although I've never seen one in person.
> > Funny thing about some airshows that I have been to - the Sabres and
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Pat

Yep, watched that one night and it gave me an itch to build Lightnings.
Two got built and I've got about 6 more waiting to be finished
downstairs.

Bill Banaszak, MFE Sr.
Pat Flannery - 28 Nov 2007 10:35 GMT
> Yep, watched that one night and it gave me an itch to build Lightnings.
> Two got built and I've got about 6 more waiting to be finished
> downstairs.
>
> Bill Banaszak, MFE Sr.
>  

You stock up model kits like a survivalist stocks up MRE's. :-D

Pat
someone@some.domain - 28 Nov 2007 16:04 GMT
>> Yep, watched that one night and it gave me an itch to build Lightnings.
>> Two got built and I've got about 6 more waiting to be finished
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Pat

i've seen pictures....
Mad-Modeller - 29 Nov 2007 03:45 GMT
> >> Yep, watched that one night and it gave me an itch to build Lightnings.
> >> Two got built and I've got about 6 more waiting to be finished
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> i've seen pictures....

Shame that our Crapologist never supplied any.  Of course they may never
have matched my imagination.

Bill Banaszak, MFE Sr.
someone@some.domain - 29 Nov 2007 04:39 GMT
>> >> Yep, watched that one night and it gave me an itch to build Lightnings.
>> >> Two got built and I've got about 6 more waiting to be finished
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>Bill Banaszak, MFE Sr.

your pile is really impressive, as is your built pile. i've never seen so many
car models. damn.
Mad-Modeller - 29 Nov 2007 07:04 GMT
> >> >> Yep, watched that one night and it gave me an itch to build Lightnings.
> >> >> Two got built and I've got about 6 more waiting to be finished
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> your pile is really impressive, as is your built pile. i've never seen so many
> car models. damn.

Hmm, didn't remember showing them to anyone but J. Radke and Anthony H.
Recently added a '37 Chevy convert to the pile.  I was trying to E-bay
it for a friend and got no bites.  I looked at it too much and ended up
parting with $10 for it.  Isn't too much in the antique line that isn't
a Ford.  I think a 'chocolate and cream' colour scheme would look well
on it.
Just in car models I have far beyond the stock of the local (almost a)
hobby shop.  Heck, Michael's has far more than they do. :(

Bill Banaszak, MFE Sr.
RobG - 28 Nov 2007 02:35 GMT
Mad-Modeller <checkreplyto@nextline.com> wrote
> I tend to agree although I've never seen one in person.  
> Funny thing about some airshows that I have been to - the Sabres and
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Bill Banaszak, MFE Sr.

Bill - concur with the old jet thing. RIAT had a Sabre flying around this
year, very nice indeed.

As for EEL aerobatics - I'm fairly certain that I've read somewhere that
during the last days of the Lightning's service, it was keeping up fairly
well with F-15s et al. Its biggest letdowns were the serious lack of fuel
and the somewhat primitive (!) radar/avionics fit. Pilot skill and airframe
ability are what kept it in the race. Having been fortunate enough to sit
in the cockpit of one, as much as I'd love to fly the thing, I'd hate to
have to fight in it - no room, no visibility, and steam-powered everything!
(That's a joke)

And then there's the U-2 driver who 'had a moment' when a pair of
Lightnings formated on him while he was at Angels Way Up There - apparently
that caused quite a stir in the appropriate circles...

RobG
(The Aussie one)
kim - 28 Nov 2007 05:52 GMT
>> I tend to agree although I've never seen one in person.
>> Funny thing about some airshows that I have been to - the Sabres and
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Bill - concur with the old jet thing. RIAT had a Sabre flying around
> this year, very nice indeed.

It helps if they clean it first. At RAF Gaydon in 1968 there was a Super
Sabre of the Belgian air force on ground display in natural metal finish
which was by far the filthiest a/c I've ever seen. An RAF Lightning was also
giving an air display in quite the worst weather conditions you could
imagine.

(kim)
IanDTurner@aol.com - 28 Nov 2007 10:58 GMT
Hey Enzo - try these regarding O/B AIM-9

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0782244/M/

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0952981/M/ ( OK - so it's an aqui -
but the wiring must be there )

When were you on Jags / in the dump BTW? ( me 85 to 06 ! )

Ian
Enzo Matrix - 28 Nov 2007 17:58 GMT
> Hey Enzo - try these regarding O/B AIM-9
>
> http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0782244/M/
>
> http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0952981/M/ ( OK - so it's an aqui -
> but the wiring must be there )

Interesting.  Thanks Ian.  Take a look at the dates of those photos, 1988
and 1988. One jet is a GR1, the other a GR1A.  At the time Jaguars were not
cleared for flight with overwing pylons. As you are no doubt aware, that
only occured during Op GRANBY (aka Desert Storm).  The 54 Sqn jet admirably
demonstrates the reasons. Inboard tanks and ordnance on the centreline.
Sidewinders on outboard pylons... er... where do we fit the EW suite?  There
is no room for ECM and chaff pods. (There are ALE-40 flare pods fitted on
the engine doors).  The jet also demonstrates why the RAF moved over to
precision guided munitions very quickly at that time. The bombs are 1000lb
ballistic ones - probably the least accurate choice or those available. A
Jaguar carrying a single Paveway would have a much greater striking power
than the load shown.

Also, bear in mind that both those jets are seen at air shows. They may not
necessarily carry representative weapons loads. During the 1970s, I used to
regularly see Harrier GR3s at airshows which were carrying Sidewinders. It
was only later that I found that they couldn't possibly have used them. The
first ground attack Harriers only gained Sidewinder capability as a bodge
job in 1982 while on the way down to the Falklands. The missile wiring was
actually speedtaped to the outside of the outboard fairings!

The 54 Sqn Jaguar also demonstrates perfectly the use of Suncorite on the
gun blast tubes.

> When were you on Jags / in the dump BTW? ( me 85 to 06 ! )

I wasn't. I was never posted to Colt.  Around 1995 the RAF amalgamated all
Sidewinder missile servicing into two Regional Missile Maintainance
Sections. The term "regional" was a misnomer as one dealt with the ground
attack fleet and the other with the air defence fleet. I was in the ground
attack RMMS from its formation until I left the RAF.

Signature

Enzo

I wear the cheese. It does not wear me.

Pat Flannery - 27 Nov 2007 22:47 GMT
> In the metal, the Lightning is awe-inspiring (even when it's cold and dark
> and stuck in a museum)
>  

It's a big bruiser of a thing, that's for sure.

Pat
kim - 26 Nov 2007 23:58 GMT
>> Aeromodeller Annual once published a picture of a BAC model of a
>> swing-wing "Lightning" with much larger side-by-side engines
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> was quite that capable. It seems to be largely biased for the
> nuclear strike mission, and if you don't have nuclear weapons....

The Jaguar is little more a scaled-down/simplified TSR2. There was a similar
project from Avro which would have used a low-wing format and slightly
smaller engines than TSR2 but bigger than Jaguar.

(kim)
Alan Dicey - 27 Nov 2007 02:13 GMT
> The Jaguar is little more a scaled-down/simplified TSR2. There was a similar
> project from Avro which would have used a low-wing format and slightly
> smaller engines than TSR2 but bigger than Jaguar.

<boggle>

er - no, not by any stretch of the imagination.

TSR-2 was supersonic, all-weather, had terrain following and targeting
radars, internal weapons bay, two seats, twice the range . . .
kim - 27 Nov 2007 07:18 GMT
>> The Jaguar is little more a scaled-down/simplified TSR2. There was a
>> similar project from Avro which would have used a low-wing format
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> TSR-2 was supersonic, all-weather, had terrain following and targeting
> radars, internal weapons bay, two seats, twice the range . . .

Jaguar is supersonic and originally had two seats.

(kim)
Enzo Matrix - 27 Nov 2007 11:35 GMT
>>> Aeromodeller Annual once published a picture of a BAC model of a
>>> swing-wing "Lightning" with much larger side-by-side engines
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> similar project from Avro which would have used a low-wing format and
> slightly smaller engines than TSR2 but bigger than Jaguar.

The Jaguar was originally designed as a trainer!

Signature

Enzo

I wear the cheese. It does not wear me.

Pat Flannery - 27 Nov 2007 23:11 GMT
> The Jaguar was originally designed as a trainer!
>  

Which brings this thing up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_T-2
Which was a Japanese copy of the Jaguar.

Pat
Don Harstad - 22 Nov 2007 19:32 GMT
>> Were the gun muzzle troughs on these planes painted red, rusted
>> natural metal, or both?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> metal. The coating would wear off fairly rapidly once the aircraft was
> returned to service.

Thanks, Enzo.  That explains so many photos....

Don H.
 
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