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Model Forum / General / Models / January 2008Figure for Jadgpanther
Which hatch does the tank commander use? The rear one or the one midway on the righthand side? Is is common for the commander to expose himself from the hatch during combat like tank commanders? > Which hatch does the tank commander use? The rear one or the one > midway on the righthand side? Is is common for the commander to > expose himself from the hatch during combat like tank commanders? > http://www.rlm.at/cont/gal09_e.htm In that one he's up front, which makes sense from the position of the rotating periscope mounted ahead of him. Here's some more: http://modelingmadness.com/reviews/misc/vehicles/germany/stewjagdp.htm As to whether he'd stick his head out or stand up through the hatch would probably depend on the situation. If he didn't think there were any enemy tanks in close proximity or if the tank destroyer was on the move he might, so he could keep an eye out for potential targets or threats. If the vehicle was concealed in a forested area and not moving while waiting to engage a enemy approaching from a known direction, he might stay inside and just use the periscope to draw less attention to the vehicle's position. About the time the shells start to fly though, he's probably going to be down inside to avoid shell debris and MG fire. In the second webpage cited above, he's extended the binocular range-finder periscope ahead of the prismatic one. BTW, here's a little something I found out recently...if the commander is wearing a set of headphones, he'll have one side hiked up so only one ear is covered. They did this to prevent missing the sound of something occurring in close proximity to them while still being able to hear radio communications. Pat >> Which hatch does the tank commander use? The rear one or the one >> midway on the righthand side? Is is common for the commander to [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > >Pat Thanks for the links especially the first one from Andre Tupy. Tupy provided details I was looking for. I am building my second Academy 1/25 Jadgpanther updated to the late version with the box exhaust manifold (in the kit's sprue but unused) plus barrel shaped shrouded exhausts (not in the kit but taken from a Academy Panther), raised cooling fan cover (in kit's sprue but unused) and revised tool stowage. The JP kit is configured for a rear armor plate with the cast curved exhaust manifolds plus the single/triple exhaust set-up (this now becomes superflous.) The already built Panther will be modified (box exhaust manifolds as originally built) with scratch built single pipe exhausts and curved plate shrouds. There is an unused raised cover for the left fan cover on the JP kit sprue (common for the Academy Panther kit). I cut off the moulded on left fan cover on the JP and replaced that this raised fan cover. The diameter is smaller than the right hand one although the overall size of the shroud is correct. Looking at Andreas Tupy's model the diameter difference is perhaps correct although in my (Squadron Armor No 11) drawings they look about equal. On the late version rear armor plate (unused kit part) with the "box" exhaust manifold the top 1/4 inch had to be trimmed off to fit the JP. This leaves just enough space to flush fit the rear tool boxes, unlike the Panther which has a strip of space on top and on the bottom of the rear armor plate. But image 8 of Tupy's model shows this flush fit to be correct. My JP is finished and painted but I haven't put on the tools yet. It should be too hard for me to reposition them in ther manner of Tupy's model and patch up the glue marks. Please refer to Tupy's Image 8 again. In between the exhaust manifold is the round plate that covers the engine's hand starter dog according to a book photo reference. Tupy's model has what looks like a sturdy tow attachment on this round plate that is also present in the Academy Panther but not in the sprue for the JP. The photo references showed that this attachment was not always installed. What is the function of this attachment? > Please refer to Tupy's Image 8 again. In between the exhaust manifold > is the round plate that covers the engine's hand starter dog according [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > function of this attachment? > That is the "towing pintle": http://www.kitreview.com/reviews/pantheraccessoriesreviewbg_1.htm "For modelers who just can't wait for Dragon to release the late Panther A, TRAKZ has addressed the most eluisive conversion item. This set supplies the "classic" Panther A exhausts with the tripe pipe on the left side. Three pipes are supplied in resin. A new resin jack block and towing pintle are also provided (the late Panther A had the jack relocated vertically, and hence the new towing pintle). The resin parts are well cast. They are supported by a small fret of photo-etched metal with mounting brackets and braces for the new exhausts, plus a detailed face for the pintle. The jack block is especially nice, with fine woodgrain texture and a carry handle on one edge." And thanks for having me dig up the info on that thing, as I've wondered what that damn block of wood on the exterior of German tanks was about for decades. :-) One of the big problems that the Germans ran into with the introduction of the Panthers and Tigers was that they were too heavy for there standard modified Bergpanzer III or IV towing vehicles to pull out of mud if they got stuck, or had to be towed after a mechanical failure (quite common). They eventually got around this by building the Bergpanther V recovery vehicle, but one useful addition to the Panther was a centrally mounted towing pintle on the rear hull plate to aid the two outward-mounted tow shackles when trying to pull another vehicle around, by giving a strong, centrally mounted tow point. I imagine if you did it right, you'd have two Panthers back-to-back, with the two tow cables off of one's shackles going to the central pintle on the other, and the other vehicle's two tow cables going from its shackles to the pintle on the first vehicle, so that all four cables would be of the same length when drawn tight. The pintle seems to be a bolt-on addition, either going on top of the manual starter hatch (which was normally flush with the back plate) or replacing it with a new combined part (I haven't been able to dig up specifics on this, but suspect the latter, at least on new-build vehicles equipped with it). There are some photos of a model showing the attachment here, with some chain hanging off the bar where the cables are attached: http://www.missing-lynx.com/articles/dio/rwpanth/rwpanth_construction.htm Part of the article on this diorama: http://www.missing-lynx.com/articles/dio/rwpanth/rwpanth.htm Pat > There are some photos of a model showing the attachment here, with > some chain hanging off the bar where the cables are attached: > http://www.missing-lynx.com/articles/dio/rwpanth/rwpanth_construction.htm > Part of the article on this diorama: > http://www.missing-lynx.com/articles/dio/rwpanth/rwpanth.htm Here's some more Jagdpanther models for reference and ideas: http://www.missing-lynx.com/gallery/german/jljp.htm http://www.missing-lynx.com/gallery/german/jagdp_tuchiyama.html http://www.missing-lynx.com/gallery/german/sdjagdp.htm http://www.missing-lynx.com/gallery/german/jagdpanther_asheedy.html http://www.missing-lynx.com/gallery/german/gjjagdp.htm http://www.missing-lynx.com/gallery/german/jagdpzr_triandafiliou.html http://www.missing-lynx.com/gallery/german/gjjp.htm http://www.missing-lynx.com/gallery/german/rmjp.htm http://www.missing-lynx.com/gallery/german/jagdpanthermidcw_1.html Pat >The jack block is especially nice, with fine woodgrain >texture and a carry handle on one edge." >And thanks for having me dig up the info on that thing, as I've wondered >what that damn block of wood on the exterior of German tanks was about >for decades. :-) That "small tools" wood box had always bugged me too. It just didn't seem logical not to make it in metal. But as a jack block, now that's indispensible equipment. I suppose the only side for the handle will be on top since the wood block is nested in its stowage bracket. The grip size width will fit a hand. >One of the big problems that the Germans ran into with the introduction >of the Panthers and Tigers was that they were too heavy for there [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >its shackles to the pintle on the first vehicle, so that all four cables >would be of the same length when drawn tight. Bug number two is the length of the towing cables supplied on the kit sprue. (Whether in 1/25 or in 1/35.) With the front eye hitched to the tool rack cable horn the cable doesn't reach far back enough for it to be secured to the hull rack at the rear. My solution is to make my own cable by using a low speed drill to twist three strands of mild wire (from a roll of wire twists from shipping supplies) and gluing on the plastic tow eye ends. Also the left cable has to curve around and under the gun cleaning rods stowage tube. This invovles a few sharp bends. Just how flexible was the cable and how small a radius can one bend it to accommodate the stowage tube? My modification looks nice but the cable is of a non standard length and longer than the kit cables. It also means that the left and right tow cables won't be of equal length. Only a rivet counter will notice. What is a good compromise? >The pintle seems to be a bolt-on addition, either going on top of the >manual starter hatch (which was normally flush with the back plate) or >replacing it with a new combined part (I haven't been able to dig up >specifics on this, but suspect the latter, at least on new-build >vehicles equipped with it). Bug number three is on the Tiget I. On the inside corner of the front fenders is a circular cup. The only function I can think of is as a standoff bumper for the fenders when the fenders are folded back during rail transportation. But it seems too elaborate a structure for such a simple function. Any other function? > >> The jack block is especially nice, with fine woodgrain [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > grip size width will fit a hand. > I keep picturing the Panther tank with one of its four corners jacked up off of the ground to do something with the treads or suspension system, and some poor guy crawling under it while that jack holds over 11 tons of weight over his head. Oh, yeah, that would make me feel safe. That would rank up with trying to crank-start the engine. Did they use an inertial starter or what? :-) > >> One of the big problems that the Germans ran into with the introduction [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > wire (from a roll of wire twists from shipping supplies) and gluing on > the plastic tow eye ends. That's kind of severe...if you go down to a picture framing shop, you'll find they have real steel cable around that diameter for hanging picture frames on the wall. Nothing looks like real steel like real steel. If it's chrome-plated you can cook it with a Bernz-O-Matic torch till it's black, and if you want, actually rust it with some water. > Also the left cable has to curve around and > under the gun cleaning rods stowage tube. This invovles a few sharp > bends. Just how flexible was the cable and how small a radius can one > bend it to accommodate the stowage tube? The real cable looks god-awful heavy and stiff. I assume it was only moderately tempered so that they could fold it around to the shape they wanted it to be to store it. > My modification looks nice > but the cable is of a non standard length and longer than the kit > cables. It also means that the left and right tow cables won't be of > equal length. Only a rivet counter will notice. What is a good > compromise? > If you are going to be wrong, at least be consistently wrong! :-D The cables would almost certainly have have been of identical length, as that would be necessary for their use in pairs. Do the long one first, and match the length of the short one to it, no badly how it fits on the tank. I have a sneaking suspicion that the tool and cable fitting on the real tank looked nowhere as neat as it did in all the artwork you see of it. I did get a kick out of the missing jack that keeps showing up in those Jagdpanther models. I assume that either it broke a lot and was discarded, or no one could talk a crewmember into trusting their life to it while crawling under the tank or treads. I imagine the first thing you hear is the splintering wood under the tread, followed by your life flashing before your eyes to the song "Lili Marleen". :-) > >> The pintle seems to be a bolt-on addition, either going on top of the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > for such a simple function. Any other function? > I'll work on that one tomorrow. ;-) Pat >> Bug number three is on the Tiget I. On the inside corner of the front >> fenders is a circular cup. The only function I can think of is as a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I'll work on that one tomorrow. ;-) I'm having a hard time spotting exactly what you are describing; is it on the hull of the tank or on the folding fender section? I did find a nice shot of folded front fender; is it visible in this photo?: http://www.tiger-tank.com/secure/photos/0281_f_4.jpg That's from here: http://www.tiger-tank.com/secure/journal32.htm Or is it the thing visible on the upper front corner of the side hull in this photo?: http://www.tiger-tank.com/secure/photos/6214_e_2.jpg From this page: http://www.tiger-tank.com/secure/journal44.htm Pat >>> Bug number three is on the Tiget I. On the inside corner of the front >>> fenders is a circular cup. The only function I can think of is as a [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >I did find a nice shot of folded front fender; is it visible in this >photo?: http://www.tiger-tank.com/secure/photos/0281_f_4.jpg Its barely visible as a "puck" in the gap between the hull and the left side of fender. This photo demolishes my theory of it being a fender stowage bumper. http://www.tiger-tank.com/secure/journal14.htm The ring on the corner of the front horizontal hull plate just where the track outer edge forms an angle with the vertical plate. This photo has the rings in a different position from the above photo. http://www.tiger-tank.com/secure/journal31.htm Its clearer in this B&W photo. It's the dark ring(s) at the front corner of the main horizontal hull plate. They are just behind the fender flap hinge line. The rings are also in the outside position. I checked my plastic models and they are on the outside. http://www.tigertank-h-e-181.com/10_Hull_Exterior_.htm Pix: Detail on the front right guard. Its barely noticeable but its there just at the right of the back end of the hinge. http://www.alanhamby.com/early.html The "rings" are visible in the B&W 5th photo, top frontal view. >That's from here: http://www.tiger-tank.com/secure/journal32.htm >Or is it the thing visible on the upper front corner of the side hull in >this photo?: http://www.tiger-tank.com/secure/photos/6214_e_2.jpg > From this page: http://www.tiger-tank.com/secure/journal44.htm > >Pat Tow cables: Blair Stewart's Italeri JP has the cable running from the tool rack horn, over the cleaning rod tube (no hooks to hold it in place) , wrapped around the rear hull lifting hook and resting midway on the horizontal fender strip. This is a good representation of cable stowage without sharp cable bends. I had always been uncomfortable with models showing the cable resting on a fragile stowing tube, the cable unsecured along its length and the rear eye resting where it lay. Once the tank started up and moved an unsecured cable would have fallen off and wrapped itself around the road wheels. I took a look at Tupy's model again and there are welded on hooks for the towing cable run. Stewart's model would have looked better with those (Tupy) hooks. The Jack: As for you musings on the jack I was puzzled as to how it was used. It was too long to fit under the hull and likely not sturdy enough for the task. It couldn't possibly extend long enough to clear the road wheels that, being on torsion bars, would flop down when the hull was raised. After the hull was raised where was the jack to raise the road wheel? Then there is that business end that had a curved edge with a grooved channel. What would a non rectangular surface fit into? Squadron's Armor No 11 (Panther) has a picture of the jack in use on page 19. The grooved curved end of the jack fitted under the rim of the roadwheel and won't slip. The extension length of the jack would be enough to lift the roadwheel off the ground by possibly half the jack's length. But this still begs the question. If you raise the wheel and remove it the torsion bar is going to drop down, or at least sit on the remaining roadwheel. There's no way anyone can lift the torsion bar to reinstall the roadwheel. Having asked this question I think the purpose of that wood block is more to put it under the torsion bar so that it would stay in place while the roadwheel was removed and then replaced. This begs the next question. If an inner road wheel needed replacing the adjacent roadwheels also needed to be removed, five in all I read somwhere. The job will require three wood blocks for the three torsion bars. Anyone interested in solving this one? >> I did find a nice shot of folded front fender; is it visible in this >> photo?: http://www.tiger-tank.com/secure/photos/0281_f_4.jpg [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > fender stowage bumper. > Okay, now I see what you are talking about. > http://www.tiger-tank.com/secure/journal31.htm > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I checked my plastic models and they are on the outside. > In that one they almost look like holes piercing the hull. Are these used to lift the front armor plate off from over the transmission/differential? > Tow cables: > Blair Stewart's Italeri JP has the cable running from the tool rack [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > hooks. > Regarding the tow cables and their flexibility, was the cable made up of a number of sub-cables braided together (like nylon rope) with each of the sub-cables also being braided out of fairly thin wire? That would greatly improve its flexibility, as well as giving it some "stretch" in use. These are pretty neat: http://www.armorpax.com/Armorpax/Forum/viewtopic.php?p=278&sid=2ebb2e487d7f52ebe d281e132782f488 And appear to use that type of construction. > The Jack: > As for you musings on the jack I was puzzled as to how it was used. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > torsion bars. Anyone interested in solving this one? > Way beyond me, although that makes sense from the point of view of the use of the wood block. I always thought that the overlapped suspension on the Panthers and Tigers looked way too complex for its own good from the repair viewpoint. I also read up on the complexity of getting at the inner road wheels, or the inside half of the outer ones. This really doesn't make sense for something that's going to be seeing combat in some very rough field conditions. They almost looks like they did a big scale-up of their standard half-track suspension without realizing that the size and weight of the components were going to make it very difficult to repair. On this webpage from the Bovington Tiger restoration I was surprised to see that the road wheels themselves aren't all that thick of metal, as the battle damage shows: http://www.tiger-tank.com/secure/journal40.htm Pat >In that one they almost look like holes piercing the hull. >Are these used to lift the front armor plate off from over the >transmission/differential? After looking at many photos from Squadron Armor No 28 (Tiger) and other sources they do indeed look like front corner reinforcing lifting rings for the whole hull assembly, particularly during manufacture. This will be the Tiger equivalent of lifting loops welded on later model tank turrets. But to be lifting points they should be holes not cups as represented in all plastic models. I can't tell if they are holes from the photos. Anyone visited Bovington and can give a heads up? >> In that one they almost look like holes piercing the hull. >> Are these used to lift the front armor plate off from over the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Bovington and can give a heads up? > I have seen things that look like cups on German tanks (I think it was the Maus) which were either some sort of threaded inserts between parts that held them together like giant flush-headed screws, metal alignment rods that went into holes in the two parts to be joined, or the end result of some sort of huge spot-welding process. You can see them on the turrets of the E-100 and Maus here: http://greyfalcon.us/restored/Panzerkampfwagen%20VIII.htm I was originally going to suggest they might be rings for lifting the whole hull, but of that's the case they look too low strength to do it. I think that front armor plate over the gearbox that powers the drives sprockets would be removable for maintenance or replacement of the machinery, as otherwise there would be no way to get at it other than from inside. The plate would be awfully heavy, so would need to be removed via a crane hoisting it. The rings look substantial enough to do that. If it does come off, the front driver/gunner armor plate comes off with it, as they are welded together: http://www.tigertank-h-e-181.com/Fig.3h.jpg Pat > After looking at many photos from Squadron Armor No 28 (Tiger) and > other sources they do indeed look like front corner reinforcing [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Bovington and can give a heads up? > I may have just found something; in this picture of a destroyed Tiger I from Tunisia, the thing appears to be a cylindrical hole drilled through the armor: http://www.752ndtank.com/images/KodTigeronSide2.jpg In this photo, the hole seems to have a plug in it: http://www.752ndtank.com/images/508sPzAbtTiger500x344Stamped&Watermarked.jpg This would make sense if the hole is used for lifting something - in normal use it has some sort of detachable plug in it, possibly with a towing shackle attached to the plug; but when you want to lift the hull, you detach the plug from the hole and use some sort of heavy hook which fits in the hole through the armor plate. Pat >> After looking at many photos from Squadron Armor No 28 (Tiger) and >> other sources they do indeed look like front corner reinforcing [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >Pat I'll buy this interpretation until someone comes along with a better one. That plugged hole fixture is 4 inch armor plate. You can hang the whole tank from that single hole. Is the Tiger I still in Aberdeen's outdoor display? I was more interested in the artillery on my visit 2 years ago and can't remember. It was a disappointment that they had been left to rust in the open all these years. > I'll buy this interpretation until someone comes along with a better > one. That plugged hole fixture is 4 inch armor plate. You can hang > the whole tank from that single hole. I assume there are two up front and two in the back; I'm still looking for the two back one's location. Pat >> I'll buy this interpretation until someone comes along with a better >> one. That plugged hole fixture is 4 inch armor plate. You can hang [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Pat There is a better explanation! I wasn't looking for it but there it is midway in this YouTube video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7x88NJ-VHDU&NR=1 A 'L' shaped davit is stuck into this hole to mount a block and tackle. The B&T is for lifting the front sprocket drive. Who would have guessed. Anyway there is a picture of a Tiger being transported by a travelling crane across the factory floor with cables attached to the towing shackles > There is a better explanation! I wasn't looking for it but there it > is midway in this YouTube video > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7x88NJ-VHDU&NR=1 > That's the first time I've seen a YouTube video that wasn't a video. :-) This explains why they stick the plugs in the holes; to prevent corrosion so that the davit base won't get stuck in them during use. Says a lot about the weight of those drive sprockets. Pat on 1/7/2008 1:36 AM PaPaPeng said the following: > >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > the towing shackles > I didn't see any pic of a Tiger being transported across the floor. I did see a pic of a turret either being removed or installed on a Tiger at very near the beginning of the slidesshow. See the gap between the turret and the hull, and what appears to be a worker standing in the open hull hatch with his head under the turret? It looks like he is looking to align the turret to the hull.  SignatureBill In Hamptonburgh, NY To email, remove the double zeroes after @ >on 1/7/2008 1:36 AM PaPaPeng said the following: >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >worker standing in the open hull hatch with his head under the turret? >It looks like he is looking to align the turret to the hull. Sorry. I should have made that clear as a separate source. That picture is in the Schiffer Military History book (West Chester, PA) Vol. 44 Tiger I, ISBN 0-88740-352-2. page 8. While I am at it, on page 26 of the same book there are two pictures of the same Tiger having its right hand front roadwheels changed in field conditions. In the pix the jack was braced against the hull vertical plate's projection that had the towing shackle. Its an odd application in that the base of the jack seemed to have been removed. The stub was used to support the hull projection. The extensible part of the jack was braced against the ground.. A knee deep pit was dug from infront of the Tiger and back for four roadwheels. This provided the space to work on the wheels. The front right hand corner of the hull was supported by column made up of thick rectangular wood blocks. The dimensions of each wood block look similar to the wood 'box' normally stowed on the front of the deck on the Tiger. I was always puzzled about that wood 'box'. So it was a solid block of wood kept for field repair work. I never made that connection before. ======================================== Okay. One more thing that had always bugged me. On later model Shermans, midway on the right side of the front glacis, is a large round horizontal plate. There were no attachments or equipment attachment points or openings. Therefore no obvious function although it had its own armored shroud on the glacis. It probably protected something inside the hull that would not fit otherwise. What was that something? Midway down this webpage is a color photo of an outdoor museum exhibit. http://commandos.strategyplanet.gamespy.com/sherman.html The item is to the left of the top of the yellow signboard. on 1/7/2008 12:53 PM PaPaPeng said the following: > >> on 1/7/2008 1:36 AM PaPaPeng said the following: [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > something? > Could that be an armored replacement cover for the hull mounted machine gun ball that was mounted there on earlier models, but blocked off on some later models? > Midway down this webpage is a color photo of an outdoor museum > exhibit. http://commandos.strategyplanet.gamespy.com/sherman.html > The item is to the left of the top of the yellow signboard. > SignatureBill In Hamptonburgh, NY To email, remove the double zeroes after @ > Which hatch does the tank commander use? The rear one or the one > midway on the righthand side? Is is common for the commander to > expose himself from the hatch during combat like tank commanders? I'm assured by a former British tank commander that no one ever sticks their head out of the hatch while in the combat zone. That particular practice seems to be a pure invention of Hollywood movies. (kim) > > Which hatch does the tank commander use? The rear one or the one > > midway on the righthand side? Is is common for the commander to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > (kim) Depends on the army, actually. The Israelis suffered terrible tank commander casualties in the 1967 and '73 wars specifically because they preferred to fight head out, as unobstructed views of the battlefield were deemed more important than safety. Gerald Owens |
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