 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
| HomeDiscussion Groups General ModelsRailroadsRocketsRadio Controlled Air ModelsHelicoptersLand ModelsWater ModelsModelGeeks.com Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map |
Model Forum / General / Models / January 2008Captured B-17's. Any Major Conversions by the Germans?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kampfgeschwader_200 I see that Hasegawa has a 1/72 kit of a captured 17. Anything different about the kit besides the decals? Its going for around $23. From what pics I have seen and a diorama pic, it looks the same as a regular F. thx - Craig >thx - Craig Not sure on the F, but Strangers in a Strange Land mentions that at least one G model had the ball turret removed to facilitate dropping parachutists (one of KG 200's missions). >>thx - Craig > > Not sure on the F, but Strangers in a Strange Land mentions that at > least one G model had the ball turret removed to facilitate dropping > parachutists (one of KG 200's missions). And probably the .50's replaced by MG's because of the lack of 50 cal ammo.  SignatureCheers, Bert-Jan >>>thx - Craig >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >And probably the .50's replaced by MG's because of the lack of 50 cal ammo. interesting to find out. i would expect the crews to want to keep the 50's if possible because their range is better than the average german ac armament. a lot of night fighter pilots got a nasty shock from the lancs and halibags that had 2 50's instead of the 4 303's in the tail. i've heard the was even a plan at one time to copy the 50's, but hitler killed it. ma duece, a boy's best friend. > i've heard the was even a plan at one time to copy the 50's, but hitler killed > it. > ma duece, a boy's best friend. > Their 13mm MG 131 packed the same sort of punch: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MG_131_machine_gun Lower muzzle velocity, but higher RPM than the M2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M2_Browning_machine_gun And around half the weight. Pat >> i've heard the was even a plan at one time to copy the 50's, but hitler > killed [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Pat good gun, but kind of scarce. >> Their 13mm MG 131 packed the same sort of punch: >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MG_131_machine_gun [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > good gun, but kind of scarce. > They used them on all the later Bf-109s and FW-190s. They managed to get an explosive round to work for it, which is more than we did on the .50 during the war, although they have one for it now: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raufoss_Mk211 Pat >>> Their 13mm MG 131 packed the same sort of punch: >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MG_131_machine_gun [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >Pat cool. On Jan 7, 9:13 pm, some...@some.domain wrote: > In article <13o61a8j2uo7...@corp.supernews.com>, flan...@daktel.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > - Show quoted text - unfortunately, the model in question that I posed is offered only as a line drawing from Great Models. they don't even have a picture of it.....though from the posts it appears that changing out the 50's to something else might be appropriate, even if there are no pics to confirm. and as someone posted earlier, why did they use German markings if they wanted to infiltrate the formation? Craig >On Jan 7, 9:13=A0pm, some...@some.domain wrote: >> In article <13o61a8j2uo7...@corp.supernews.com>, flan...@daktel.com wrote:= [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > >Craig i noticed no sawstickers on them. i suppose at night the markings did not matter much. > unfortunately, the model in question that I posed is offered only as a > line drawing from Great Models. they don't even have a picture of > it.....though from the posts it appears that changing out the 50's to > something else might be appropriate, even if there are no pics to > confirm. I would think the structural changes required to mount new machine guns would argue for keeping the .50 cal. ones and use ammo from downed aircraft or captured from ground engagements. > and as someone posted earlier, why did they use German > markings if they wanted to infiltrate the formation? > It might be that they didn't want to get shot down by their own forces. Unlike the B-17 squadrons, they would be flying home solo...making a very tempting target for AA and fighters. The night camouflaged B-17 was probably used for covert paratrooper operations with the paratroopers jumping out of the hole left by removing the ball turret. Note that this B-17 has yellow undersides to aid recognition by anti-aircraft gunners: http://www.kg200.org/images/b17kg200.gif It was used to analyze the best way for fighters to attack the aircraft. When used for clandestine operations, it carried USAAF markings or none at all. That's from here: http://www.kg200.org/historyac1.html Pat I believe the Italians were the ones whousd the B-17 to get into USAAF formations and shoot at other USAAF planes. The Germans I believe used their captured aircraft as testbeds to learn better ways to attack formations of enemy aircraft. Therewere accounts where "possible" captured planes shadowed bomber formations, but may have been there to direct fighters against the bomber stream. Stan Parker I also think someone did a book about captured allied aircraft a few years back but have no other memory of it. On Jan 7, 9:13 pm, some...@some.domain wrote: > In article <13o61a8j2uo7...@corp.supernews.com>, flan...@daktel.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > - Show quoted text - unfortunately, the model in question that I posed is offered only as a line drawing from Great Models. they don't even have a picture of it.....though from the posts it appears that changing out the 50's to something else might be appropriate, even if there are no pics to confirm. and as someone posted earlier, why did they use German markings if they wanted to infiltrate the formation? Craig On Jan 9, 8:57 am, "Stanley Parker" <stanleyjohnfinanpar...@worldnet.att.net> wrote: > I believe the Italians were the ones whousd the B-17 to get into USAAF > formations and shoot at other USAAF planes. The Germans I believe used their [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I remember reading a story about this years ago. A captured P-38 was given over to an Italian fighter pilot, who used it to shadow the bomber formation and pick off stragglers. Eventually, someone either saw him in action or got a head's up over the radio from one of his victims. Anyway, a couple of Italian-Americans who spoke the language started speaking Italian over the American frequency and heard the Italian pilot holler at them to get off the frequency before they warned the Americans that he was on their tail. Then he found out that the last two or three "bombers" in the formation didn't have bombs - they had extra rounds of ammunition. Picture at least fourteen and maybe twenty .50cal machine guns filling your aircraft full of lead. One sorry pisano.... > Then he found out that > the last two or three "bombers" in the formation didn't have bombs - > they had extra rounds of ammunition. Picture at least fourteen and > maybe twenty .50cal machine guns filling your aircraft full of lead. > One sorry pisano.... > He should have been flying a Caproni-Moroni C2 "SCUD"; he could have fled in a hurry: http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/AC/way-weird/weird.php Pat > On Jan 9, 8:57 am, "Stanley Parker" > [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > maybe twenty .50cal machine guns filling your aircraft full of lead. > One sorry pisano.... YB-40. All kinds of extra .50s made it a great gunship. IIRC the book was Martin Caidin's "Fork-Tailed Devil". Tom On Jan 10, 5:38 pm, "maies...@netscape.com" <maies...@netscape.com> wrote: > > On Jan 9, 8:57 am, "Stanley Parker" > [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I read the story in an old copy of "Airpower", but maybe it's received "urban legand" status..... "Stanley Parker" <stanleyjohnfinanparker@worldnet.att.net> wrote: The book you're referring to is Strangers in a Strange Land, by Hans-Henri Stapfer. Published by Squadron/Signal. >> Not sure on the F, but Strangers in a Strange Land mentions that at >> least one G model had the ball turret removed to facilitate dropping [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > And probably the .50's replaced by MG's because of the lack of 50 cal ammo. > They might have had a fair amount of .50 ammo from downed aircraft. This hits me as odd: http://505th_paratrooper.tripod.com/militarygraphicsbyrobertbolish/id39.html Putting it in German markings and camouflage defeats the purpose of sneaking into allied airspace with it. More info on them here: http://www.kg200.org/historyac1.html Pat I'm thinking that with all the bombers and fighters that went down over Germany and German-occupied territory, they probably had a pretty good supply of .50 cal for the few captured US aircraft that needed to be armed for some sort of "special" mission. SignatureCheers: Bill Woodier In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger. I do not shrink from this responsibility -- I welcome it. My Home Page: http://www.bill-woodier.com/home.htm -- >>>thx - Craig >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > And probably the .50's replaced by MG's because of the lack of 50 cal > ammo. > I'm thinking that with all the bombers and fighters that went down > over Germany and German-occupied territory, they probably had a pretty > good supply of .50 cal for the few captured US aircraft that needed to > be armed for some sort of "special" mission. well, it's something I read in (I think) "KG200, The force with no face" which was/is supposed to be rather accurate. Dramatized, but rather accurate. SignatureCheers, Bert-Jan >> I'm thinking that with all the bombers and fighters that went down >> over Germany and German-occupied territory, they probably had a pretty [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Dramatized, but rather accurate. > I just thought of something; with their disintegrating link feed belts, US fighters and bombers must have left a huge number of .50 caliber cartridge cases strewn across Germany, especially on the low-level strafing missions. Did the German populace gather these up so they could be melted down for their brass content, and the brass reused for German cartridge cases? What made me think of this was the use of the paper drop-tanks on allied aircraft to prevent the aluminum in the metal ones being used by the German war industry. Pat I would think they'd be so widely scattered as to not be worth the time and manpower to collect them. > >> I'm thinking that with all the bombers and fighters that went down > >> over Germany and German-occupied territory, they probably had a pretty [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Pat "bill.woodier" <bill.woodier@comcast.net> wrote: The captured fighters certainly were armed: Strangers in a Strange Land mentions that all the captured Allied fighters were always flown fully armed. The maintenance guys were fully trained on the aircraft, and kept them in good repair. (given there were plenty of spare parts from downed aircraft...) No doubt a lot of wrecks contributed parts, fuel, ammo, etc. to keep the captured birds flying. On Jan 6, 5:11 pm, "cr...@earthlink.net" <cr...@earthlink.net> wrote: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kampfgeschwader_200 > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > thx - Craig About the only thing that my Profile book shows is a tarp secured over the nose because of battle damage.... That and new markings. >On Jan 6, 5:11=A0pm, "cr...@earthlink.net" <cr...@earthlink.net> wrote: >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kampfgeschwader_200 [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >the nose because of battle damage.... >That and new markings. like the sterling? All the pics in the book showing the captured B-17s and B-24s show the .50s as being installed in the turrets. Most likely the Luftwaffe got ammo from scavenging downed aircraft. One B-24 had a radar installed so that it could track RAF bombers at night and send altitude, course, and speed info to Luftwaffe GCI controllers to vector in the night fighters. ****** I received this by E-mail and am posting it as per the request. I'm not up to date on this thread as my ISP only brings in a few postings, not all. I know, I know, get a decent news reader :-). So maybe this will fit in with someone's postings. Cheers all. Jim. **************************************** Jim, Here's the info of our exchange on this but I see that it has still not shown up on RMS. I have not figured out how to post there since Sympatico aligned itself with Bill Gates and MSN. I can read but not post. Are you able to post on RMS? If so, how? Feel free to post this there if you have access. Cheers, Doc ----- Original Message ----- From: RSKIMIN@aol.com To: dennis.hopper@sympatico.ca Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 12:15 AM Subject: Re: Captured B-17's. Any Major Conversions by the Germans? Thanks for the plug, Doc, but the Old Man's facts are wrong--the Italian pilot spoke American English, as I had him do in RL. Caidin's book is Fying Forts, the story is true, because the Italians, when I ask for a description of medals, they also sent me a one-page article and photo of the actual P-38...a prized possession of mine. --Bob In a message dated 1/14/2008 4:13:08 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, dennis.hopper@sympatico.ca writes: Just trying this on for size to see if it works as my ISP has changed its level of support to newsgroups and I don't know whether it will get through.. The "Old Man" wrote: Quote: I remember reading a story about this years ago. A captured P-38 was given over to an Italian fighter pilot, who used it to shadow the bomber formation and pick off stragglers. Eventually, someone either saw him in action or got a head's up over the radio from one of his victims. Anyway, a couple of Italian-Americans who spoke the language started speaking Italian over the American frequency and heard the Italian pilot holler at them to get off the frequency before they warned the Americans that he was on their tail. Then he found out that the last two or three "bombers" in the formation didn't have bombs - they had extra rounds of ammunition. Picture at least fourteen and maybe twenty .50cal machine guns filling your aircraft full of lead. One sorry pisano.... End Quote. This is a true story. Robert Skimin has done an historical novel on this incident entitled "Renegade Lightning". Recommended reading as he adds notes connecting his yarn to the actual events and the details of the eventual fate of the two pilots involved. As mentioned before, the incident was also described in one of Caidin's books, but can't remember if it was in "Flying Fortress" or "Fork-Tailed Devil". The USAAF did become aware of the fact that a captured P-38 was being used to pick off straggling B-17s. They did set a trap for him using the YB-40s. These were B-17s not carrying bombs, but with extra turrets, guns (I believe a total of 20) and ammunition. They were intended to be escorts for the bombers and beef up the defensive firepower of the formation. One problem was that the bombers, once they dropped their loads, became much lighter and faster than the YB-40s. This one YB-40 was a "real" straggler and attracted the attention of the Italian P-38. Very interesting story. Cheers, Doc |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2009 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.