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Model Forum / General / Models / July 2008



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How Things Work?

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PaPaPeng - 19 Jul 2008 21:27 GMT
I am thinking of using a discarded (good) electric controller from an
electric blanket as a controller for a nichrome wire foam cutter.  Can
anyone gibve me a general idea how electric blankets work.  Pointed in
the right direction I can use a multimeter to check out the wiring and
see if I can use it for controlling a foam cutter.

There are two controllers. The controller I where I snipped off the
insulated power wires has a regular two prong plug (2 wires) for the
wall 115 Vac outlet. Inside the controller is a heating "zig zag" wire
assembly next to a 3/4  turn moveable knob contact for adjusting the
blanket's set temperature.  I would believe the "zig zag" wire heats
up to cut off the power supply at set point.  This "zig zag" part is
an independent 3 wire circuit but must be connected to the 115Vac
power source somewhere.

Since I don't have the blanket any more I am a bit puzzled as to how
things are wired up.  Also I can't imagine 115 Vac running though the
blanket's embedded heating coils as any fracture will be a fire hazard
or a shock hazard. Yet there is no transformer to step down the
voltage and not much by the way of safety cut-offs in the controllers.
Tom - 20 Jul 2008 01:29 GMT
Before proceeding, please be sure you will is up to date and your
significant other(s) know where you have hidden your important papers.

> I am thinking of using a discarded (good) electric controller from an
> electric blanket as a controller for a nichrome wire foam cutter.  Can
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> or a shock hazard. Yet there is no transformer to step down the
> voltage and not much by the way of safety cut-offs in the controllers.
PaPaPeng - 20 Jul 2008 04:59 GMT
>Before proceeding, please be sure you will is up to date and your
>significant other(s) know where you have hidden your important papers.

Grow up a little please.  I had made many of my own tools, mechanical,
electric and electronic  and they work great.  I am way past
retirement and  I still have all my body parts in good condition.  I
know what I am doing. If you have an answer do share it.  What we
don't need is smart assed comments from people who know nothing.
The Old Man - 20 Jul 2008 11:53 GMT
> On Sat, 19 Jul 2008 17:29:18 -0700, "Tom"
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> know what I am doing. If you have an answer do share it.  What we
> don't need is smart assed comments from people who know nothing.

Having seen the results (*) from a broken electric blanket, I'd still
have to say be very careful, and I really do hope it works out for
you.

* - A destroyed bedroom                                  - $5,000.00
 - Clean up and airing out the rest of the house - $1,000
- Having at least one wag claim thet someone forgot to put out the
post-coital cigarette....
.
- Priceless
PaPaPeng - 20 Jul 2008 15:29 GMT
>> On Sat, 19 Jul 2008 17:29:18 -0700, "Tom"
>>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>.
>- Priceless

I have a fully equipped double garage workshop where I can make or
repair practically anything.  Idiot mistakes as you suggest don't
happen.
Richard Brooks - 20 Jul 2008 14:19 GMT
PaPaPeng said the following on 20/07/2008 04:59:

>> Before proceeding, please be sure you will is up to date and your
>> significant other(s) know where you have hidden your important papers.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> know what I am doing. If you have an answer do share it.  What we
> don't need is smart assed comments from people who know nothing.

Try putting the little-known idea of putting "Electric blankets how
they work" into a browser search box.  It's crazy I know but worth a try.

http://www.blurtit.com/q572953.html
http://inventors.about.com/od/estartinventions/a/ElectricBlanket.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_blanket
Val Kraut - 20 Jul 2008 03:06 GMT
There was as ad on TV tonight for a service that allowed you to create a
will for $63 - perfectly legal.  If buying a real controller is less than
this - buy one, if its more, make a will, then  modify your blanket control
but please let your wife know how to list things on ebay.

                                                                           
                           Val Kraut
someone@some.domain - 20 Jul 2008 04:12 GMT
>There was as ad on TV tonight for a service that allowed you to create a
>will for $63 - perfectly legal.  If buying a real controller is less than
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>                                                                            
>                            Val Kraut

don't forget fire insurance.
willshak - 20 Jul 2008 04:37 GMT
> There was as ad on TV tonight for a service that allowed you to create a
> will for $63 - perfectly legal.  If buying a real controller is less than
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>                                                                              
>                             Val Kraut

If she knows how to use a computer, just have her Google wills. She will
find a plethora of sites, some of which are free.

Signature

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
in the original Orange County.

The Old Man - 20 Jul 2008 11:47 GMT
> There was as ad on TV tonight for a service that allowed you to create a
> will for $63 - perfectly legal.  If buying a real controller is less than
> this - buy one, if its more, make a will, then  modify your blanket control
> but please let your wife know how to list things on ebay.
>
>                             Val Kraut

EBay Bloody Hell! Make sure she has MY address!
Bruce Burden - 20 Jul 2008 03:47 GMT
: There are two controllers. The controller I where I snipped off the
: insulated power wires has a regular two prong plug (2 wires) for the
: wall 115 Vac outlet. Inside the controller is a heating "zig zag" wire
: assembly next to a 3/4  turn moveable knob contact for adjusting the
: blanket's set temperature.  I would believe the "zig zag" wire heats
: up to cut off the power supply at set point.

    What you are describing sounds more like a rheostat than a
   temperature control. If you have a multimeter, it should be
   easy enough to set it to the voltage sacle and measure the out
   put from the controller.

    There are several articles describing how to build one of
   these things on the net. googleing "nichrome cutter" led to
   more articles than I care to count. :-)

                            Bruce
Signature

------------------------------------------------------------------------
 "I like bad!"                         Bruce Burden    Austin, TX.
       - Thuganlitha
       The Power and the Prophet
       Robert Don Hughes

Peter W. - 20 Jul 2008 15:59 GMT
> I am thinking of using a discarded (good) electric controller from an
> electric blanket as a controller for a nichrome wire foam cutter.  Can
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> or a shock hazard. Yet there is no transformer to step down the
> voltage and not much by the way of safety cut-offs in the controllers.

I do not recommend this.  Your intentions are good but you're a bit
misguided.

Here is what I know  about electric blankers (form my own
observations):

*YES*, there is 120V AC going applied to the heating coils of the
electric blanket.  It does not use any type of a voltage step-down
device. The heating element is well insulated. I gather that
manufacturers think that it is safe for use.

Some newer blankets have a sensing circuit in the controller which
cuts power to the heater the instance there is a break in the
circuit.  They also use a polarized plug so that the heating coil will
not be on the live side of the circuit  once the safety cutoff
occurs.  Older blankets did not have this feature.

The "controller" that you've mentioned is nothing more that a simple
thermostat circuit.  It is actually more like a cycling timer and
thermostat  Very simple design using an adjustable bi-metal switch.
All ti does is to cycle the full power off and on to the blanket. The
cycle time is controlled by the value dialed on the knob and also
affected by the ambient temperature.

The on/off ratio is the lowest at the lower settings and fully "on" at
the highest setting.  The ambient temperature offsets this a bit (the
colder it is the more "on" time you get).

I do not see how that could be useful for hot wire cuttter.  Best  way
to control  hot wire cutter would probably be a low voltage variable
transformer.  Or some sort of  Triac controlled circuit (similar to
standard dimmer switches).  The "dimming " circuit could either be
used on the high or low voltage side of the transformer.

Peteski
PaPaPeng - 21 Jul 2008 00:35 GMT
>I do not see how that could be useful for hot wire cuttter.  Best  way
>to control  hot wire cutter would probably be a low voltage variable
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Peteski

The solution then is to introduce a 24V transformer to heat the
nichrome wire.  The 115 V controllar to the transformer is still
valid.  I like making things out of stuff one would normally junk.  If
this doesn't work it will cost me nothing but will give me several
hours of fun.  

The triac in a light dimmer is not sensitive enough to arrive at the
styrofoam melt temp.  I don't want to build a custom triac circuit
although I have the schematics.  There are several other simple
solutions that I may build at some future date.

I do have a clouple of variable voltage transformers.
http://www.tempco.com/Accessories/Variable_Voltage_Transformer.htm
But they are large, heavy and bulky.  A simple foam cutter is what I
am trying to make.
Peter W. - 24 Jul 2008 20:59 GMT
> On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 07:59:14 -0700 (PDT), "Peter W."
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> But they are large, heavy and bulky.  A simple foam cutter is what I
> am trying to make.

I thought that I explained it well enough but I guess not.  Electric
blaket's controller is purely either fully on or off.  The overall
blanket's temperature is the product of the average of the "off" and
"on" time of the controller.  But the cycle time is relatively long
(off for about a minute and on for 10 seconds or so in the low
settings).  Noting that can be used to control a hot wire cutter.  Hot
wire has a very low mass and even if you wanted to control its
temperature by controling the duty cycle of the voltage, the cycle
would have to be much faster (few times a second).  The electric
blanket controller is just not a proper device for this application.

A triac-based dimmer would be perfect for this application. Just note
how well it can control the brightness of a light bulb.  A hot wire
cutter's thermal inertia is more like a light bulb than an electric
blanket.

Peteski
Richard Brooks - 24 Jul 2008 21:36 GMT
Peter W. said the following on 24/07/2008 20:59:
> I thought that I explained it well enough but I guess not.  Electric
> blaket's controller is purely either fully on or off.  The overall
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Peteski

Does your wife want that toaster?  ;-)
PaPaPeng - 26 Jul 2008 06:59 GMT
>But the cycle time is relatively long
>(off for about a minute and on for 10 seconds or so in the low
>settings).

Thanks. This part I understand perfectly.
Dick's News - 27 Jul 2008 11:52 GMT
I normally build aircraft in 1/48 and 32nd scale.  But every now and then
I'll build a piece of German or Soviet WWII armor in 1/35 scale.  I'm also a
sucker for the realism for the Friulmodel metal tracks.   Long evenings were
spent assembling these links one by one, I knew there had to be a better
way.  Well there is:  I found the Trakmaster 01 track linking tool on the
Mission Model website, I purchased one and finally got around to trying it
out on the tracks of a PZ IV last night.

The reason for this email is to announce to all you armor fans that
Trakmaster is a positive joy to work with and is everything Mission Models
declared it to be.  All of a sudden the stack of unbuilt Panzers is looking
good.   (Incidentally, instructions state that Sherman tracks can not
assembled using the Trakmaster).   I even leave the assembled tracks in the
jig after inserting the wire in order to apply super glue.

I rarely praise a product and I've never praised a product on email before,
but the Trakmaster's ease of use really grabbed my attention.

Dick...
Don Stauffer in Minnesota - 20 Jul 2008 16:58 GMT
> I am thinking of using a discarded (good) electric controller from an
> electric blanket as a controller for a nichrome wire foam cutter.  Can
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> or a shock hazard. Yet there is no transformer to step down the
> voltage and not much by the way of safety cut-offs in the controllers.

I suspect electric blanket elements are high impedence low current,
high voltage devices.

Foam cutters are very low impedence, hence use high current, low
voltage.  Most of the cutters I have seen use six volts or lower. On
mine I used an adjustable battery charger/eliminator, and it worked
fine, but it was a fifteen amp device and I was using about ten amps
of it.

I think you would be much better off using a low voltage device, and
you can easily use manual control rather than automatic.  Much safer,
too.
PaPaPeng - 21 Jul 2008 00:37 GMT
>I think you would be much better off using a low voltage device, and
>you can easily use manual control rather than automatic.  Much safer,
>too.

My project is to cut boat hulls and airplane wings spanning some 6
feet.  Good temperature control is necessary.
chuck ryan - 23 Jul 2008 07:28 GMT
> I am thinking of using a discarded (good) electric controller from an
> electric blanket as a controller for a nichrome wire foam cutter.  Can
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> or a shock hazard. Yet there is no transformer to step down the
> voltage and not much by the way of safety cut-offs in the controllers.

2 D cell batteries power the foam cutter I have...........Hobby Lobby $4.00
on sale!

Signature

Chuck Ryan
Springfield OH

 
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