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Why did PTO aircraft stay painted late in the war?

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Musicman59 - 11 Mar 2010 17:29 GMT
In the ETO camo and paint was not done to a large extent as we had air
supremacy.

Did we not have supremacy in the Pacific?  Was it because the planes
worked in a corrosive enviromnent that paint was needed?  Or was it
that no matter what a silver plane shows up too easy over jungle and
water...

This is in response to the prior Hellcat markings post.  Wonder what
silver Hellcats, Corsairs, etc.would have looked like.  Another "what
if" project I guess.

Craig
WmB - 11 Mar 2010 18:34 GMT
> In the ETO camo and paint was not done to a large extent as we had air
> supremacy.

Camo, on an aircraft or on one's person for that matter is most useful in a
static defense. Once a camouflaged object becomes mobile the advantages of
camo diminish. Look at camo'd aircraft from another angle - who was still
applying camo right up to the very end of WWII? The Germans - and most
likely due to the need to conceal their static aircraft, parked there and
about and under constant threat of strafing and bombing. Just as Allied air
superiority reduced concerns for their own static defense, the lack of air
superiorty amplified the Germans concerns.

Other considerations for the allies were that the large, high altitude
formations of bombers and escorts rendered camouflage ineffective. The
Germans had excellent intel and tracking and the targets of these formations
weren't such a mystery - especially at the end when the list of unscathed
targets grew shorter and shorter. Luckily, knowing and doing something about
it are different animals. Paint also comes with a weight penalty -
especially on something the size of a B-17 or B-24. Less pounds, better
performance.

> Did we not have supremacy in the Pacific?

Naval air war was very much localized in the Pacific due to the expanse
betweens islands (and campaigns). All it would take to deal a death blow to
a concentrated fleet force would be one effective localized ad hoc air
attack on its carriers.  I would think glittering aluminum aircraft on the
deck of a flattop or anyhwere near it (like in CAP) would pose a less than
helpful security risk. Blue or grey - it seems to be a Navy thing.

On the other hand, the USAAF aircraft in the PTO seem to have followed the
pattern of their ETO brethren and gone au-naturel in the final year of the
war. B-29s, P-38s (inc. the two leading aces, Bong and McGuire) and P-51s
stand out as examples that were more often than not sans camo.

> Was it because the planes
> worked in a corrosive enviromnent that paint was needed?

Only really worthwhile on the non-aluminum parts I would think.

WmB
Moramarth - 11 Mar 2010 23:45 GMT
> > Did we not have supremacy in the Pacific?
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> deck of a flattop or anyhwere near it (like in CAP) would pose a less than
> helpful security risk. Blue or grey - it seems to be a Navy thing.
I think you've nailed it there.  IIRC, USN camo was designed to
minimise detection from the air - hence dark blue decks. The topside
colour on USN/USMC aircraft pretty much matched the decks they were
supposed to fly off.  The clincher is that the undersides of those
portions of the wing which folded up were often painted in the topside
colour, as white would have compromised the overall effect, whereas it
would counteract the deep shadows on other areas of the underside.

> > Was it because the planes
> > worked in a corrosive enviromnent that paint was needed?
>
> Only really worthwhile on the non-aluminum parts I would think.

Regards,
> WmB
Moramarth
Claus Gustafsen - 11 Mar 2010 18:35 GMT
Hi Craig,

I think You need another line of thought - Did the carrier planes in the ETO
miss their paint jobs? I belive no. Saltwater and salty air is a potent
corrosive agent to planes, thats why You never see the carrier planes in
bare metal finish. Well what about the land based Corsairs then? I belive
that most of them were at one time or another carrier baser or expected to
be available for carrier use.

In the PTO the P-47, the P-51, the B24 and B29 were NMF. So as far as I
know, it has to do with salty environment (But then what of the Thunderbolts
on the small islands?)

> In the ETO camo and paint was not done to a large extent as we had air
> supremacy.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Craig
Greg Heilers - 11 Mar 2010 23:47 GMT
> In the ETO camo and paint was not done to a large extent as we had air
> supremacy.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Craig

As others have already opined - it seems to have largely been just
a matter of Navy doctrine vs. Army doctrine - as much as, or more than,
any "environmental" or tactical concern.
Rufus - 12 Mar 2010 02:02 GMT
> In the ETO camo and paint was not done to a large extent as we had air
> supremacy.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Craig

I suspect it was mostly because they need to be corrosion controlled -
at least for Navy planes...ever see what happens to raw aluminum that's
been exposed to salt foam?  You get powdered metal, eventually...some
USN planes were painted silver, pre-war.  But they were still painted.

...OTOH, there were also PTO P-38s that were silver...painted or not.
But they were shore based.

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     - Rufus

frank - 12 Mar 2010 03:22 GMT
> > In the ETO camo and paint was not done to a large extent as we had air
> > supremacy.
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> --
>       - Rufus

Also depends on where they were produced and when. Some plants painted
everything, others would send out the door unpainted. Especially later
in the war in Europe much more to get them out quickly.

And paint carries a weight penalty.

Though it does prevent corrosion and provides camoflage. Even in
flight. I remember a flight of F-105s photographed from above in
Vietnam, didn't really believe in the camo until I saw the photo, hard
to see against the jungle.

Besides, we get to play with metalizer paints and camo patterns.
Weathering, all that stuff. Argue about exact shades. One VMF 214
pilot told me some of the Corsairs were black with nothing else on
them. Go figure, guess you go with what is in the paint shop.
Gray Ghost - 12 Mar 2010 05:22 GMT
frank <dhssresearcher@netscape.net> wrote in news:0bb5ce69-c2dd-41b0-a854-
d48809e6543d@e1g2000yqh.googlegroups.com:

>> > In the ETO camo and paint was not done to a large extent as we had air
>> > supremacy.
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> pilot told me some of the Corsairs were black with nothing else on
> them. Go figure, guess you go with what is in the paint shop.

The one I found most impressive so far is the picture of the Me-109s in N.
Africa with the sand yellow with dark green spots in flight over the desert.
The height was just right and the spots on the Me appeared to be the same size
as the clusters of scrub on the ground. I could beleive that with a little
haze and at a reasonabele distance those Mes would flat disappear.

Signature

God, guns and guts made America great.

And Janet Napolitano nervous.

Which should tell you all you need to know about Democrats. How can one
restore America to greatness if greatness makes you uncomfortable?

frank - 12 Mar 2010 09:16 GMT
On Mar 11, 11:22 pm, grey_ghost471-newsgro...@yahoo.com (Gray Ghost)
wrote:
> frank <dhssresearc...@netscape.net> wrote in news:0bb5ce69-c2dd-41b0-a854-
> d48809e65...@e1g2000yqh.googlegroups.com:
[quoted text clipped - 53 lines]
> Which should tell you all you need to know about Democrats. How can one
> restore America to greatness if greatness makes you uncomfortable?

What is interesting is the amount of local camo done in the Luftwaffe
in spite of efforts to come up with a standard camoflage and pattern
by the higher ups. It got pretty loose with armor, pretty much
whatever you could get your hands on to touch up or color to make your
tank hard to spot. Even mud at times.

I dont' remember who the author was, but at one time there was a date
that aircraft went from camo, usually OD to silver. Sometime in the
spring, probably 44 or could be 45. Pilot came out the next morning to
take off on the day's missions, the mechanic had spent the night with
turpentine and a rag and taken all the paint off by hand. No doubt
that crew chief earned the liquor ration of the pilot for that month.
Moramarth - 12 Mar 2010 11:55 GMT
> > >> > This is in response to the prior Hellcat markings post.  Wonder what
> > >> > silver Hellcats, Corsairs, etc.would have looked like.  Another "what
> > >> > if" project I guess.
Even better, a Corsair (or early naval jet) in a pre-war colour scheme
and markings, including the "red-dot-in-a-star" roundels - IIRC those
roundles wetre once worn by a F4 Phantom, but it was an RN example
visiting a USN carrier - the "ROYAL NAVY" on the fuselage had been
changed to "COLONIAL NAVY" too...
The RAF recently did a "What if.." in 1:1 scale by painting a Hawk
trainer in Dark Green/Dark Earth with appropriate roundels to match
one of the BBMF Spitfires for a photo opportunity.
> What is interesting is the amount of local camo done in the Luftwaffe
> in spite of efforts to come up with a standard camoflage and pattern
> by the higher ups. It got pretty loose with armor, pretty much
> whatever you could get your hands on to touch up or color to make your
> tank hard to spot. Even mud at times.
I particularly like the Berlin Brigade Chieftains in "Rubik Cube" camo
- I suspect so many privately owned examples wear this is because
Bronze Green and Black gets boring...

> I dont' remember who the author was, but at one time there was a date
> that aircraft went from camo, usually OD to silver. Sometime in the
> spring, probably 44 or could be 45. Pilot came out the next morning to
> take off on the day's missions, the mechanic had spent the night with
> turpentine and a rag and taken all the paint off by hand. No doubt
> that crew chief earned the liquor ration of the pilot for that month.
That surprises me - major repaints usually happen when there's a major
maintenance done, with the exception that nowadays "special" schemes
get applied to aircraft due such a maintenance, so they can be
returned to their proper appearance after the festivities are over.
IRRC, some USAAF chaps didn't like their shiney new BMF Thunderbolts,
and they ended up wearing scrounged RAF green.   But an A10A
Thunderbolt II in the BMF finishing and markings of one of its
illustrious antecedants would be quite a sight...

Regards,

Moramarth
The Old Man - 12 Mar 2010 11:47 GMT
> > > In the ETO camo and paint was not done to a large extent as we had air
> > > supremacy.
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

I have several plates of a P-26 Peashooter in this style. It was used
for night patrol over Pearl Harbor immediately after the attack in '41.
Enzo Matrix - 12 Mar 2010 18:34 GMT
> Wonder what
> silver Hellcats, Corsairs, etc.would have looked like.  Another "what
> if" project I guess.

I will shortly be building a Hellcat whif.  It will be in the pre-war yellow
wings scheme.

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Enzo

I wear the cheese. It does not wear me.

tomcervo - 13 Mar 2010 14:47 GMT
> In the ETO camo and paint was not done to a large extent as we had air
> supremacy.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Craig

Blue = easy ID.
It's worth it to load up a flight sim--demos are free--and see how
hard it is to ID a distant plane. Most prop single-engine military
planes look the same. The story about Shomo's record kills was that
the JAAF in that area had never seen a Mustang, and thought they were
Ki-61's. I think only USNAF planes were blue, and they were often the
only Allied force in the area.
AM - 13 Mar 2010 16:15 GMT
>> In the ETO camo and paint was not done to a large extent as we had air
>> supremacy.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> Ki-61's. I think only USNAF planes were blue, and they were often the
> only Allied force in the area.

I fly online a lot, and for a Japanese, it is a easy, Grumman's are all
square wing, Wildcats are the easiest. the mid wing design makes them
very easy to spot. And you go after them automatically. Same with P38's
For a Spit or Hurri pilot. Square wing = kraut.
Corsairs are just big mid wings, so you go after them without a thought.

Which brings up a point. Most of the time the color is not an issue
unless looking down above ground at an OD A/C. 99% of aircraft ID'ing is
by wingtip and rudder shape. At a distance they are all little black
specks that grow in size rapidly.

Look at the WW II A/C Id cards, they all go by silhouette.

Several times I've been in P 51's and Spits and have been chased
mercilessly by P 38's.... (anything without two engines is an enemy to them)

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http://sctuser.home.comcast.net

http://www.novac.com

Rufus - 13 Mar 2010 18:31 GMT
>>> In the ETO camo and paint was not done to a large extent as we had air
>>> supremacy.
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> mercilessly by P 38's.... (anything without two engines is an enemy to
> them)

Me too...desktop sim games and actual military trainers.  Which point
out that in modern times, if you're dogfighting you've made a mistake...

If I'm close enough to see what I'm shooting at, color is the last thing
on my mind - I use my fovial vision to look for edges and shapes.
Configuration of wings, engines, stabs...vertical tails.

Vertical tails (number, shape, and orientation) are a BIG give away -
particularly when maneuvering...they always point in the direction of
the opponent's lift vector, thus allowing you to anticipate which
direction he is going go if/when he pulls.  If you're going to lead or
lag pursue, you watch where his fin is pointing and lead or lag on that.

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