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BUSH SHOULD BE IMPEACHED

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Jerry - 01 Feb 2004 23:16 GMT
The more I think about this Iraqi situation the more disgusted I
become with Bush.  OBL attacked us but you don't hear anything about
him anymore and he is still on the loose.  Instead, all we hear is how
we are better off with Sadam out of power.  While that may be true, we
certainly can't go around overthrowing every government we don't agree
with.  We tried to impeach Clinton for getting a blow job and denying
it.  Bush lies about WMD's, there are none, and led a nation to war.
We have lost several hundred soldiers and continue to lose them daily.
The truth is we were no in danger of attack from Iraq.  We should be
about trying to impeach Dubya if possible because of this action.  I
think it is much worse than what Clinton did.  Vote Democratic, get
the little dictator out of office.
Jerry
WinBear - 02 Feb 2004 00:08 GMT
How dare he act on the best information available to him! Impeach every
President whose opposition lies to them! Oh, the shame of his defending this
country to the best of his ability, instead of spending his time turning the
White House into the Playboy Mansion East like the last guy!

WInBear

(who never hears his opponents talking about how to keep the country just as
safe without acting just as he does...)
Jim McLaughlin - 02 Feb 2004 00:24 GMT
a.sholes who pollute this group with political crap - whether pro Bush or
anti Bush deserve only one fate --

and that fate is especially earned by cowards who will not even post under
their own names or with decipherable E mail addys/

   <FLUSH>

--
Jim McLaughlin

Please don't just hit the reply key.
Remove the obvious from the address to reply.

***************************************************************************
> How dare he act on the best information available to him! Impeach every
> President whose opposition lies to them! Oh, the shame of his defending this
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> (who never hears his opponents talking about how to keep the country just as
> safe without acting just as he does...)
Brian Paul Ehni - 02 Feb 2004 00:57 GMT
On 2/1/04 6:24 PM, in article IMgTb.158434$sv6.874624@attbi_s52, "Jim
McLaughlin" <jim.mclaughlintheobvious@comcast.net> wrote:

> a.sholes who pollute this group with political crap - whether pro Bush or
> anti Bush deserve only one fate --
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Please don't just hit the reply key.
> Remove the obvious from the address to reply.

Indeed; things have calmed down somewhat on this list, so it was just a
matter of time before more gasoline was induced.

Signature

Brian Ehni

WinBear - 03 Feb 2004 01:23 GMT
On  1-Feb-2004, "Jim McLaughlin" <jim.mclaughlintheobvious@comcast.net>
wrote:

> a.sholes who pollute this group with political crap - whether pro Bush or
> anti Bush deserve only one fate --
>
> and that fate is especially earned by cowards who will not even post under
> their own names or with decipherable E mail addys/

You can't be talking about me... my real name is in the headers, and I have
no earthly idea what you find incomprehensible about my email address. It's
not written in Martian or anything.

WinBear
not.fishplate - 04 Feb 2004 01:09 GMT
>You can't be talking about me... my real name is in the headers, and I have
>no earthly idea what you find incomprehensible about my email address. It's
>not written in Martian or anything.

Newsgroups: rec.models.railroad
Subject: Re: BUSH SHOULD BE IMPEACHED
From: "WinBear" <ignore-e-ma-il@thehellhole.com>
Reply-to: ignore-e-ma-il@thehellhole.com
References: <c064daac.0402011516.7663af0d@posting.google.com>
<401d9522_1@news.iglou.com> <IMgTb.158434$sv6.874624@attbi_s52>
Organization: ignore-e-ma-il@thehellhole.com
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 01:23:53 GMT
X-Newsreader: News Rover 8.2.1 (http://www.NewsRover.com)
NNTP-Posting-Host: lex-ts4-115.iglou.com
X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: lex-ts4-115.iglou.com
Message-ID: <401ef849_1@news.iglou.com>
X-Trace: news.iglou.com 1075771465 lex-ts4-115.iglou.com (2 Feb 2004
20:24:25 -0500)
Lines: 15
X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.5.223.231
Path:
sn-us!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-09!supernews.com!newshosting.com!nx02.iad01.newshosting.com!news-feed01.roc.ny.frontiernet.net!nntp.frontiernet.net!uunet.MISMATCH!ash.uu.net!news.iglou.com!not-for-mail
Xref: sn-us rec.models.railroad:472197

????????????????????????/
WinBear (Bob Horton) - 04 Feb 2004 07:31 GMT
> >You can't be talking about me... my real name is in the headers, and I
> >have
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> ????????????????????????/

Weird. Since clicking on me in Google reveals my name I had thought it
showed in my headers. *Now* I find out that News Rover has been (correctly)
putting in on my emails but not my Usenet posts. I *think* I have it fixed
now. This was inadvertent. I wonder how Google Groups managed to get it
right? Maybe News Rover is getting buggy or something. For those who for any
reason think that real names mean much on Usenet, I will reveal (drum roll)
my real name which is Bob Horton. Kinda underwhelming... I *like* WinBear
better than my real name, that, not cowardice, is why I use it. I got it
from the L. Neil Smith books.

WinBear
Two23 - 02 Feb 2004 04:37 GMT
Just another spammer.

Kent in SD
Gregory Procter - 02 Feb 2004 08:39 GMT
> The more I think about this Iraqi situation the more disgusted I
> become with Bush.  OBL attacked us but you don't hear anything about
> him anymore and he is still on the loose.  Instead, all we hear is how
> we are better off with Sadam out of power.  While that may be true,

Care to explain how?
Iraq was previously under a dictatorship - now it's under oppressive
foreign military occupation.

> we
> certainly can't go around overthrowing every government we don't agree
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> think it is much worse than what Clinton did.  Vote Democratic, get
> the little dictator out of office.

Regards,
Greg.P.
Biggus - 02 Feb 2004 12:44 GMT
>The more I think about this Iraqi situation the more disgusted I
>become with Bush.  

What Model trains does he run?
JCunington - 02 Feb 2004 22:59 GMT
>>The more I think about this Iraqi situation the more disgusted I
>>become with Bush.  
>
>What Model trains does he run?

The Gore & Defeated? (<G>)

Jay
(a democratic-leaning sometimes-Conservative)
Larry Blanchard - 03 Feb 2004 00:35 GMT
> >>The more I think about this Iraqi situation the more disgusted I
> >>become with Bush.  
> >
> >What Model trains does he run?
>
> The Gore & Defeated? (<G>)

Now THAT's funny!

Signature

Where ARE those Iraqi WMDs?

robby - 04 Feb 2004 00:58 GMT
> >>The more I think about this Iraqi situation the more disgusted I
> >>become with Bush.  
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Jay
> (a democratic-leaning sometimes-Conservative)

I think Saddam had a Marklin Z layout in his spiderhole and Bush
wanted it. The set was crated by GI's and shipped back to the White
House.  Now Cheney is fighting him over it.
CBix - 02 Feb 2004 14:39 GMT
I'll bet you'd like to spank him huh John Epperson?

For those of you who don't understand, the original poster is the old
Okiechoochoo. That name will ring a bell with anyone who has been on
this newsgroup for awhile. Okichoochoo, now "Jerry", has been
polluting this newsgroup with his warped postings. He went away in
shame for a short time when I pulled out some of his previous postings
that he made on some adult websites where he wanted to be spanked by
strangers.

Then he made a big deal about starting legal action against me for
doing it. Obviously nothing has or will become of that threat because
you can't win a legal battle when all you do is repost information
someone else has posted.

Sorry Okie you are still pathetic. And don't even try denying that you
aren't Okiechoochoo.

CBix
Jerry - 02 Feb 2004 19:04 GMT
> I'll bet you'd like to spank him huh John Epperson?
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> CBix

Who the hell are you.  Must be Newton in disquise.  I think you got
Epperson wrong.  He told me he did the spanking not get it.  Besides,
what is a good female bottom made for if it isn't a sensual spanking.
Jerry
Jerry - 02 Feb 2004 19:08 GMT
> I'll bet you'd like to spank him huh John Epperson?
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> CBix

I notice the day he posted he was going to talk to authorities you
dropped of this newsgroup like a flushed turd.  Sounds to me like he
scared the sh.t our of you.
Jerry
CBix - 03 Feb 2004 03:50 GMT
> > I'll bet you'd like to spank him huh John Epperson?
> >
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> scared the sh.t our of you.
> Jerry

When you were humiliated to the group and exposed as a degenerate you
scurried away back under some rock and there was no need to post until
you returned. Now that you are back count on me replying to your hate
filled posts. Nothing you write or do could possibly scare me.

Now go away John Epperson and spank yourself you creepy pervert.

CBix
jepperson - 03 Feb 2004 19:32 GMT
so you found out Jerry and I are the same.  Big deal.
I use lots of names here, you would be surprised.  Maybe I am you to.

> > > I'll bet you'd like to spank him huh John Epperson?
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>
> CBix
CBix - 03 Feb 2004 23:55 GMT
> so you found out Jerry and I are the same.  Big deal.
> I use lots of names here, you would be surprised.  Maybe I am you to.

Maybe, but I don't think so, my behind isn't sore from being paddled by strangers.
Marty Hall - 04 Feb 2004 04:36 GMT
> > so you found out Jerry and I are the same.  Big deal.
> > I use lots of names here, you would be surprised.  Maybe I am you to.
>
> Maybe, but I don't think so, my behind isn't sore from being paddled by strangers.

Right, so you know those who spank your butt.  Whatever suits you JohnJerryCbix
Marty Hall
Marty Hall - 03 Feb 2004 23:57 GMT
> so you found out Jerry and I are the same.  Big deal.
> I use lots of names here, you would be surprised.  Maybe I am you to.

I am sure you are the same.  I checked back over the last 45 days and
the only posters CBIX has responded to are Jerry and John.  That just
about sums it up.  No RR related postings, just crap from a master
troll.  Jerry, John, CBix and jepperson, you are all the same spanko,
however, your personal tastes are your business.  Marty Hall
CBix - 04 Feb 2004 14:05 GMT
> > so you found out Jerry and I are the same.  Big deal.
> > I use lots of names here, you would be surprised.  Maybe I am you to.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> troll.  Jerry, John, CBix and jepperson, you are all the same spanko,
> however, your personal tastes are your business.  Marty Hall

Hey brain stem who's going to believe that Okiechoochoo would bring
light to everyone here his past posts on an adult spanking site like
CBix did? Clues are in style - get one.
Dunter Powries - 04 Feb 2004 16:45 GMT
> > > so you found out Jerry and I are the same.  Big deal.
> > > I use lots of names here, you would be surprised.  Maybe I am you to.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> light to everyone here his past posts on an adult spanking site like
> CBix did? Clues are in style - get one.

Oh, yes!  Clearly this is a very sophisticated game you are playing,
Okiechoochoo... albeit, pretty much all by yourself!

OBVIOUSLY you posted to the adult spanking group under your Okiechoochoo
identity so that you could then reveal it to the toy train group under your
CBix identity, therein achieving some manner of twisted, psychic spanking,
thus satisfying an apparent deep-seated pathological need for
self-degradation which we will all probably sleep much better for not being
told all about, you weird-a.s psychotic mutant!

You're jerking off right now... AREN'T YOU, YOU SICK f.ck?!?!

Dunty Porteous,
Human Sacrifice

--
For seven and a half years I've worked alongside President Reagan. We've had
triumphs. Made some mistakes. We've had some sex ... uh...setbacks.
-George Bush Sr.
CBix - 04 Feb 2004 23:39 GMT
> > rockislandkid@yahoo.com (Marty Hall) wrote in message
>  news:<d3433e5f.0402031557.5de4aaaa@posting.google.com>...
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> Dunty Porteous,
> Human Sacrifice

I laughed out loud after reading this. Ohhh yeahhh Okiechoochoo seems
like the kind of guy who could pull off something "very
sophisticated".

CBix
Steve Caple - 05 Feb 2004 00:10 GMT
> I laughed out loud after reading this. Ohhh yeahhh Okiechoochoo seems
> like the kind of guy who could pull off something "very
> sophisticated".

Maybe he's a really accomplished one-had typist.

Signature

Steve Caple

Doktor DynaSoar - 06 Feb 2004 04:00 GMT
} CBix wrote:
} > I laughed out loud after reading this. Ohhh yeahhh Okiechoochoo seems
} > like the kind of guy who could pull off something "very
} > sophisticated".
}
} Maybe he's a really accomplished one-had typist.

I know what you meant, but what you typed is pretty good too.
gurdjieff 0f gormorrah - 05 Feb 2004 00:58 GMT
the Moral of the following post is:
some spank a female's a.s ...some spank their own chicken...
and some do both...
have a very very happy day

gurdjieff 0f gormorrah

> > rockislandkid@yahoo.com (Marty Hall) wrote in message
> news:<d3433e5f.0402031557.5de4aaaa@posting.google.com>...
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> triumphs. Made some mistakes. We've had some sex ... uh...setbacks.
> -George Bush Sr.
Marty Hall - 04 Feb 2004 19:22 GMT
> > > so you found out Jerry and I are the same.  Big deal.
> > > I use lots of names here, you would be surprised.  Maybe I am you to.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> light to everyone here his past posts on an adult spanking site like
> CBix did? Clues are in style - get one.

Got one, again, your only post is in reference to this.  I doubt you
have a train.  The original post was off of an AOL account, you used a
another ISP when you posted here.  Perhaps not the same John?  I think
you are just wanting to stir up trouble but you haven't realized
nobody is reading it.  Everyone will filter you soon,
JerryJohnCBixjepperson.  Get a life. Marty Hall
jepperson - 05 Feb 2004 00:18 GMT
I am Jerry and cbix, but some say I am you to?
Steve Caple says I am you but maybe I am him
anyway, I know more about trains then you do.

> > > > so you found out Jerry and I are the same.  Big deal.
> > > > I use lots of names here, you would be surprised.  Maybe I am you to.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> nobody is reading it.  Everyone will filter you soon,
> JerryJohnCBixjepperson.  Get a life. Marty Hall
JCunington - 05 Feb 2004 01:13 GMT
>I know more about trains then you do.

But you don't know when to use "than" vs. "then".

Jay
CNS&M North Shore Line - "First and fastest"
Marty Hall - 05 Feb 2004 01:29 GMT
> > > so you found out Jerry and I are the same.  Big deal.
> > > I use lots of names here, you would be surprised.  Maybe I am you to.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> light to everyone here his past posts on an adult spanking site like
> CBix did? Clues are in style - get one.

I forgot to add that along with everyone else not reading what you
post, I will no longer be reading you either.  You are certainly one
sick f.ck.
PLONK
Marty Hall
Jerry - 02 Feb 2004 19:19 GMT
> I'll bet you'd like to spank him huh John Epperson?
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> CBix

Another author to add to my killfile list.  Thanks Marty Hall
Marty Hall - 03 Feb 2004 14:24 GMT
> > I'll bet you'd like to spank him huh John Epperson?
> >
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Another author to add to my killfile list.  Thanks Marty Hall

Now I have got people acting like they are me.  The above is not my
post, although I will gladly PLONK this author also.  I have some news
for some of you jerks, not everyone who post things here from Oklahoma
is John or Jerry.  Might I suggest you get a life. Marty Hall
CBix - 04 Feb 2004 23:58 GMT

> > Another author to add to my killfile list.  Thanks Marty Hall
>
> Now I have got people acting like they are me.  The above is not my
> post, although I will gladly PLONK this author also.  I have some news
> for some of you jerks, not everyone who post things here from Oklahoma
> is John or Jerry.  Might I suggest you get a life. Marty Hall

HA HA HA HA HA. You can't even keep your separate identities straight.
You sign the name "Marty Hall" from the same account you signed in on
as "Jerry". I must have gotten you so upset, so mad, so outraged, so
insane with anger you forgot who you were trying to be. Keep your
multiple personalities straight. I had more respect for you when you
were signing your spanking postings with your real name (John
Epperson).

Why don't you PLONK me once and for all like you said you did and stop
responding to my posts? I'll bet you can't go one week without
responding to my posts. OK...ready? I'm starting the one week
countdown timer now.

CBix
Ken Harstine - 05 Feb 2004 01:15 GMT
I have to admit that I get cheered up everytime I see this subject line
over and over again and being promoted mostly by people who disagree
with it.

Signature

------------------------------------------------------
Ken Harstine
Holyoke, Massachusetts
k.harstine@ieee.org (use this for future correspondence)
http://www.nonotuck.us

Dunter Powries - 05 Feb 2004 01:49 GMT
> I have to admit that I get cheered up everytime I see this subject line
> over and over again and being promoted mostly by people who disagree
> with it.

Now you stop that Okiechoochoo!  You're not fooling anyone!
Bob - 05 Feb 2004 13:25 GMT
And it makes me wonder where in all of this is discussion of model
reailroads.....
Anyone out there model N&W from the 40's and 50's?

> I have to admit that I get cheered up everytime I see this subject line
> over and over again and being promoted mostly by people who disagree
> with it.
CBix - 05 Feb 2004 17:41 GMT
> I have to admit that I get cheered up everytime I see this subject line
> over and over again and being promoted mostly by people who disagree
> with it.

It really is the simple things in life that bring us happiness.
MrRathburne - 02 Feb 2004 15:07 GMT
Jerry, the flame wars are over.
Stick to trains or move on please.
Marty Hall - 02 Feb 2004 19:17 GMT
> Jerry, the flame wars are over.
> Stick to trains or move on please.

Just flush him MrRathburne. Thanks Marty Hall
Jerry - 02 Feb 2004 23:11 GMT
> Jerry, the flame wars are over.
> Stick to trains or move on please.

Yes your are right.  The flame wars are over.  I have already stated
my point about the Union Pacific.  I guess you all have accepted that
as reality as you have quit bitching about it.  I guess I will move on
to three rail land.  You all have fun.  Vote for Kerry or at least a
Democrat.  The Horizon deal will not effect you at all.  It will be
business as usual.  Have a good day
Jerry
Calvin Mitcham - 02 Feb 2004 17:51 GMT
sorry jerry, but there are weapons of mass destruction over there...

give me the millions of dollars sadam had at his disposal, a desert the
size of iraq, and 12 years to hide them, and even i could hide them to
where you couldn't find them.

i'll bet you my big-boy AND a caboose on this one!

> The more I think about this Iraqi situation the more disgusted I
> become with Bush.  OBL attacked us but you don't hear anything about
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> the little dictator out of office.
> Jerry
Brian Paul Ehni - 02 Feb 2004 19:03 GMT
On 2/2/04 11:51 AM, in article k_SdnaCSkP_tE4PdRVn-hA@comcast.com, "Calvin
Mitcham" <cmitcham@netperson.net> wrote:

> sorry jerry, but there are weapons of mass destruction over there...
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>> the little dictator out of office.
>> Jerry

Now you've gone and fed the troll! Jerry (or whatever his name is)
disqualified his statement within 5 words by saying "think". It's a known
fact that he can't (and it has nothing to do with his political leanings).
Signature

Brian Ehni

Jerry - 02 Feb 2004 23:05 GMT
> sorry jerry, but there are weapons of mass destruction over there...
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> > the little dictator out of office.
> > Jerry

Calvin, how long do you give them to find them.  Even Bush's imspector
thinks the intelligence was faulty.  You Bush lovers are going to have
to admit sooner or later that they did not exist.  Bush wanted to
finish his daddy's war.  He and his staff were discussing ways of
going to war with Iraq 10 days after he took office, that is 8 months
before 9-11.  Bush will just want another 50-100 billion after the
election for war.  He must be stopped, vote for a Democrat, any
Demorcrat but get this little king out of office.
Jerry
chooch - 03 Feb 2004 19:10 GMT
<BIG SNIP>
>You Bush lovers are going to have
> to admit sooner or later that they did not exist.  
> Jerry
Gosh, it just hit me like a ton of bricks. No wonder we can't find any
Iraqi WMD's. The've been hidden in Jerry's posterior orafice and
nobody's looked there yet!!!!!!!
HA!
Chooch
Steve Caple - 04 Feb 2004 02:34 GMT
> Gosh, it just hit me like a ton of bricks. No wonder we can't find any
> Iraqi WMD's. The've been hidden in Jerry's posterior orafice and
> nobody's looked there yet!!!!!!!
> HA!

"We were all wrong."
 - Bush admin WMD sleuth David Kay

"Whadda ya mean _WE_, Kemosabe?"
 - UN WMD inspector Mohamed ElBaradei

Signature

Steve Caple

Larry Blanchard - 04 Feb 2004 23:39 GMT
> > Gosh, it just hit me like a ton of bricks. No wonder we can't find any
> > Iraqi WMD's. The've been hidden in Jerry's posterior orafice and
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>  "Whadda ya mean _WE_, Kemosabe?"
>   - UN WMD inspector Mohamed ElBaradei

Now we have an "independent" commission with all members appointed by
Bush :-).

The funny thing is that the media is complaining about the WMDs, which he
might get away with claiming he got bad intelligence on, and ignoring the
spurious OBLaden connection which the CIA told him was bullshit.

Signature

Where ARE those Iraqi WMDs?

JCunington - 05 Feb 2004 01:11 GMT
>...and ignoring the
>spurious OBLaden connection which the CIA told him was bullshit.

but at my last hearing, 40% of Americans believe is true anyway, because "I saw
it on the nightly news.", or think they did. I do not count myself among the
40%.

Jay
CNS&M North Shore Line - "First and fastest"
Greg Forestieri - 05 Feb 2004 15:46 GMT
> The more I think about this Iraqi situation the more disgusted I
> become with Bush.  OBL attacked us but you don't hear anything about
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> the little dictator out of office.
> Jerry

Jerry does Bush solder his rails together or just use those cheesy joiners?

Greg
will@CreditValley.Railway - 05 Feb 2004 16:02 GMT
> > The more I think about this Iraqi situation the more disgusted I
> > become with Bush.  OBL attacked us but you don't hear anything about
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Greg

Given the way he does everything else, I would say he uses the cheesy
joiners.
Some one said his staff is full of cheesy joiners.

Signature

Will
HO - Credit Valley Railway
www.muskokacomputes.com/CVR_Home.htm

JCunington - 05 Feb 2004 19:39 GMT
>Jerry does Bush solder his rails together or just use those cheesy joiners?

He uses the cheesy joiners, and probably has his brother Jeb do it for him.

Jay
CNS&M North Shore Line - "First and fastest"
Bruce Favinger - 06 Feb 2004 04:24 GMT
cheesy joiners? Its worse than that guys. He's not even a model railroader.
He's somthing else. Bruce

> >Jerry does Bush solder his rails together or just use those cheesy joiners?
>
> He uses the cheesy joiners, and probably has his brother Jeb do it for him.
>
> Jay
> CNS&M North Shore Line - "First and fastest"
Hzakas - 06 Feb 2004 17:07 GMT
:::shaking head in disbelief:::

I was under the impression that most RMR participants were mature, responsible
adults with a common interest in model trains.

However, never in my wildest dreams would I expect those "mature, responsible
adults" to stoop to the level of schoolchildren. You know what's scary? Young
adults exhibit more maturity than certain posters within this thread.

Each of us has strong feelings about a particular topic. Accept it. It should
not be necessary to resort to namecalling to argue one's case; it's only a
HOBBY, for crying out loud! (Is it any wonder why certain regulars no longer or
seldom post here any more?)

All I can say is, "Sheesh!"

Dieter Zakas
Jim Stanton - 07 Feb 2004 00:47 GMT
> :::shaking head in disbelief:::
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Dieter Zakas

The problem here is this newsgroup is unmoderated. I moderate several
MRR Yahoo Groups and every time someone starts up with the political
nonsense or name calling they get a warning. People who post "adult"
oriented material get canned immediately and the messages are deleted.

90% of the Yahoo Groups are much more focused and civil.

Here it is a free for all.

Jim
Mark Newton - 07 Feb 2004 00:53 GMT
> The problem here is this newsgroup is unmoderated.

Not a problem, simply a fact of life.

> I moderate several MRR Yahoo Groups and every time someone starts up
> with the political nonsense or name calling they get a warning.
> People who post "adult" oriented material get canned immediately and
> the messages are deleted.

> 90% of the Yahoo Groups are much more focused and civil.

And 100% of the Yahoo Groups require wading through an extraordinary
amount of crap ads and come-ons to get to the subject matter. Swings and
roundabouts.

> Here it is a free for all.

That's Usenet.
Jon Miller - 07 Feb 2004 01:37 GMT
>Yahoo Groups require wading through an extraordinary amount of crap ads and
come-ons to get to the subject matter<
   Actually there's not much crap at all if you shut off HTML which you can
do!  There are many groups and they are focused.  Straying can get a warning
and/or elimination from the group.
Mark Newton - 07 Feb 2004 11:04 GMT
>> Yahoo Groups require wading through an extraordinary amount of crap
>> ads and come-ons to get to the subject matter

> Actually there's not much crap at all if you shut off HTML which you
> can do!  There are many groups and they are focused.

No argument on that score, Jon. I am happily subscribed to a number of
Yahoo groups, and they are everything you and others say.

But there are times when the bovine vapidity of the ads really sh.ts me.
So 'll try your suggestion of dropping the fire on HTML.

Cheers,

Mark.
Calvin Mitcham - 12 Feb 2004 12:55 GMT
"bovine vapidity"??  now i'm going to have to waste valuable time i
could spend putting together these nice new e-bay boxcars, and go find a
dictionary. you linquist types...

calvin.

>  >> Yahoo Groups require wading through an extraordinary amount of crap
>  >> ads and come-ons to get to the subject matter
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Mark.
Steve Caple - 12 Feb 2004 15:46 GMT
> "bovine vapidity"??

Ahhh, yes, the cow vapors  -  according to American Electric
Power (biiiiiiig Bush donor) they are the true source of
global warming (which doesn't really exist anyway, ya know)
and acid rain.

But it still smells like BS.

Signature

Steve Caple

Brian Paul Ehni - 12 Feb 2004 16:02 GMT
On 2/12/04 9:46 AM, in article
MPG.1a953f799449a6e2989d18@netnews.comcast.net, "Steve Caple"
<stevecaple@commoncast.net> wrote:

>> "bovine vapidity"??
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> But it still smells like BS.

You DO know that most companies contribute to BOTH sides to hedge their
bets, don't you?
Signature

Brian Ehni

Steve Caple - 12 Feb 2004 19:15 GMT
> You DO know that most companies contribute to BOTH sides to hedge their
> bets, don't you?
                         DEM%  REP%
Edison Electric Inst.      31    69
Duke Energy                20    80
First Energy               18    82  
Pinnacle West Capital      17    83

Overall, 33% DEM, 67% REP

http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/contrib.asp?Ind=E08

Signature

Steve Caple

JCunington - 12 Feb 2004 17:39 GMT
>global warming (which doesn't really exist anyway, ya know)

I read the major flaw in the computer models was assuming there was a direct
correlation between air temperature at sea and water temperature. Warmer air
was assumed to mean warmer water. Water is one of the hardest things to heat
up, so it was thought to be a huge heat sink that would rapidly heat air. It
turns out there is a relationship, but it's much more complex than a direct
correlation, so the computer models rested on a flawed assumption.

Now, is global warming happening? I believe it is. How much is mankind
responsible for? I can't say. After all, the Vikings were growing wheat in
Greenland 1000 years ago, and that's not happening yet.

Until we have a handle on the sea water/air temperature thing, the computer
models will be guesswork at best. This was one of the reasons why the Bush
administration rejected the Kyoto Accords.

Jay
CNS&M North Shore Line - "First and fastest"
Beowulf - 13 Feb 2004 01:27 GMT
Salvé
> >global warming (which doesn't really exist anyway, ya know)
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Jay
> CNS&M North Shore Line - "First and fastest"

The main reason that Bush rejected the Kyoto agreements and renaged on all
previous treaties is because he is  like his father trecherous, he cant see
past his wallet (not your wallet ..his.....) Global warming is a fact, its
effects can be seen (not least by us in Scandinavia!) it is not relate to
the cylic nature of climate change, small ice ages etc, the greenland
vikings died out because of the lack of food, recent archeological  digs
there have shewn that they died of severe malnutrition and illnesses related
to malnutrition, coupled with a cold cycle (still ongoing!). Bush is seen as
a major eco-terrorist, his policies will eventually rebound unfortunately
upon the USa , assuming he doesnt loose the next election(evil grin). It
used to be that we looked to the USA (California especially) for radical
innovative ideas re the ecology, now the USA is seen  as a global succubus
:(
   Our hobby is howver non polluting for the most part and often because of
our interest in creating landscapes makes us interested in environmental
issues, Modellers to action!! :D

Beowulf
JCunington - 13 Feb 2004 07:20 GMT
>Global warming is a fact,...

Granted

> its
>effects can be seen (not least by us in Scandinavia!) it is not related to
>the cylic nature of climate change, small ice ages etc.

Now that's the rotation point of the whole argument, isn't it? "It's not
related to the cyclic nature of climate change", based on what? Computer models
that I've already stated were flawed? Yes, man's having an effect. My point of
debate is how much? Until we straighten out the computer models, that's really
an unknown.

> The greenland
>vikings died out because of the lack of food, recent archeological  digs
>there have shewn that they died of severe malnutrition and illnesses related
>to malnutrition, coupled with a cold cycle (still ongoing!).

That'd be because their crops couldn't grow in a shortened growing season?

>Bush is seen as
>a major eco-terrorist,

By not-so-conservatives on this side of the pond, too. Isn't it funny? The
conservatives don't want to conserve oil. <G>

> It
>used to be that we looked to the USA (California especially) for radical
>innovative ideas re the ecology,...

I look to California for the next nutty idea. <G>

> now the USA is seen  as a global succubus

with an emphasis on "suck", as in gas-sucking SUVs? Don't look at me. I can't
afford $800-a-set tires.

Well, the US may be the eco-badboy of the world through foreign eyes, but at
least the Cuyahoga River hasn't caught fire in what, nearly 40 years? And the
walleye population in Lake Erie is booming, or at least fishing for them is.

Jay
CNS&M North Shore Line - "First and fastest"
Biggus - 13 Feb 2004 11:47 GMT
WHO CARES...
CBix - 13 Feb 2004 14:48 GMT
> WHO CARES...

I second that.

There must be a more appropriate newsgroup for this off topic banter.
Perhaps:

alt.guys.who.have.opinions.and.that's.great.everyone.should.but.it.doesn't.matter.because.it.isn't.going.to.solve.anything.posting.them.to.a.newsgroup.run.for.elected.office.if.you.want.to.make.a.difference.or.try.developing.your.writing.skills.and.get.a.job.writing.for.the.Wall.Street.Journal.so.people.of.influence.will.see.what.you.are.writing
JCunington - 13 Feb 2004 16:51 GMT
>alt.guys.who.have.opinions.and.that's.great.everyone.should.but.it.doesn't.matter.because.it.isn't.going.to.solve.anything.posting.them.to.a.newsgr
oup.run.for.elected.office.if.you.want.to.make.a.difference.or.try.develop
ing.your.writing.skills.and.
>get.a.job.writing.for.the.Wall.Street.Journal.so.people.of.influence.will.see.what.you.are.writing

Nah. Too long. How about:
alt.political.w.nkers.yak    OR
alt.political.payback    OR
alt.tuez-les.tous.dieu.reconnaitra.les.siens

Jay
CNS&M North Shore Line - "First and fastest"
CBix - 13 Feb 2004 23:44 GMT
> >alt.guys.who.have.opinions.and.that's.great.everyone.should.but.it.doesn'
> t.matter.because.it.isn't.going.to.solve.anything.posting.them.to.a.newsgr
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Nah. Too long. How about:

> alt.tuez-les.tous.dieu.reconnaitra.les.siens
"Kill them all God will recognize the good ones"  

alt.I.came.I.saw.I.annoyed
is more appropriate for most of the people starting these kinds of posts.


> Jay
> CNS&M North Shore Line - "First and fastest"
JCunington - 14 Feb 2004 05:16 GMT
>alt.I.came.I.saw.I.annoyed
>is more appropriate for most of the people starting these kinds of posts.

I didn't start it, but point taken.

Jay
CNS&M North Shore Line - "First and fastest"
Marty Hall - 14 Feb 2004 01:00 GMT
> >alt.guys.who.have.opinions.and.that's.great.everyone.should.but.it.doesn'
> t.matter.because.it.isn't.going.to.solve.anything.posting.them.to.a.newsgr
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Jay
> CNS&M North Shore Line - "First and fastest"

Back to the original topic of this thread, Bush seems to be having a
problem with his Air National Guard record.  I guess he was able to be
a no show because of who he was.  Of course, I know we have all heard
about the records, the records, the records, these are the days he was
paid etc.  So what, I was in the Army National Guard and one whole
summer I missed drills.  I was paid for them but I was not present, so
I know that those pay records don't mean a thing.  Vote for a real
veteran, vote for Kerry.  Thanks Marty Hall
Paul Jensen - 14 Feb 2004 03:36 GMT
"Marty Hall" <rockislandkid@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> Back to the original topic of this thread, Bush seems to be having a
> problem with his Air National Guard record.

And what problem is that?

>Vote for a real
> veteran, vote for Kerry.  Thanks Marty Hall

Yeah, him and his buddy, Hanoi Jane!
will@CreditValley.Railway - 14 Feb 2004 04:13 GMT
> "Marty Hall" <rockislandkid@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > Back to the original topic of this thread, Bush seems to be having a
> > problem with his Air National Guard record.
>
> And what problem is that?

He has no problem with them, they were the best money could buy.

Signature

Will
HO - Credit Valley Railway
www.muskokacomputes.com/CVR_Home.htm

JCunington - 14 Feb 2004 05:32 GMT
> Bush seems to be having a
>> problem with his Air National Guard record.
>
>And what problem is that?

The fact that attendance records seem to be in short supply. Also people can't
always swear he was at every meeting. He apparently was seen at the dentist,
but missed a required physical, for which he was not punished, not even an
Article 15 (commanding officer's non-judicial punishment; punishable by docking
up to 1/3 pay up to 6 months, a favorite threat of drill instructors).

To their credit, the Bush camp is slowly coming up with records. Face it, how
many of us could pull up 30-year-old records at the drop of a hat?

As for impeachment, that should be used for "high crimes and misdemeanors", not
political payback. That game has been played out as far as I'm concerned.

Jay
CNS&M North Shore Line - "First and fastest"
Art Marsh - 14 Feb 2004 07:41 GMT
> The fact that attendance records seem to be in short supply. Also people can't
> always swear he was at every meeting. He apparently was seen at the dentist,
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Jay
> CNS&M North Shore Line - "First and fastest"

Bush was in the ANG slightly less than six years. He would have a very
difficult time trying to keep all records from that long ago and for such a
short period of time. I just found out how hard it was when I was attempting
to audit my own years of service just before I retired.

For nine years I was on flight status in the Active Army and also required
to take yearly flight physicals. One year I was attending a course of
instruction at a post without a flight surgeon (FS) when I came due. Without
a FS, I could not take a flight physical and so I automatically came off of
flight status (grounded) until I passed the physical. So the fact that Bush
missed a physical really does not bother me.It happens sometimes. He was on
authorized TDY so article 15 proceedings would not even be considered. There
is absolutely nothing wrong in not having had the physical in his case.

I was on active duty towards the end of Bush's tour of service so I am not
all that knowledgeable about the Guard and Reserves in the Vietnam Era.
These days it is not all that unusual for a soldier to miss 2-5 months of
drill dates. Civilian work always comes first and the Guard and Reserves
make REASONABLE allowances in granting authorized absences. I missed 3
months myself in 1999 when my civilian job had me working on the infamous
Y2K farce. Like Bush I chose not to make up the time lost (although I could
have if I wished). But this was not wartime.

I laugh at all the political sharks attempting to find blood in the Bush
military records. There is no new facts to be derived there. It only proves
how incompetent the sharks really are. A far better tack would be to
determine what the ANG's policies were for mandatory drill and Annual
Training attendance during the Vietnam War years and did he comply with
those policies. I had heard that the Army Reserves and National Guard had
policies in effect that a soldier would attend all required functions or be
subject to being ordered to Active Duty ( and then Vietnam by default) for
non-attendance. Remember that all the Guard and Reserve units were operating
at 100% to 125% authorized strength during those war years. They did not
have to be NICE to the soldiers as they do now.

Take care,

Art
Steve Caple - 14 Feb 2004 18:28 GMT
> I laugh at all the political sharks attempting to find blood in the Bush
> military records. There is no new facts to be derived there. It only proves
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> at 100% to 125% authorized strength during those war years. They did not
> have to be NICE to the soldiers as they do now.

But they DID have to let W jump ahead of 500 some applicants
to get what he has admitted was his alternative to Canada or
jail, or [God forbid!!] combat.  Not to mention we'll never
know what Karen Hughes and friends removed when they sanitized  
his records years ago.

When he disowns the likes of Drugbaugh, Savage, Coulter,
Hannity, and that whole sick crew, when he apologizes for the
continuing slurs against Max Cleland (that slut Coulter did it
again just recently), when he apologizes for Joe McCarthy and
HUAC, then he'll still have his foolish policies of protecting
polluters and encouraging land rapers and mortgaging our
children and grandchildren's future to tax changes that save
middle class folks something on the order of $700 and his top
1% buddies [er, uh, is that Pioneers or Rangers?  And how much
DID he pay for the Texas Rangers shares?] nearly $60,000 on
average to answer for.  Not to mention the precipitate rush to
distract Americans from his furtherance of driving the US
toward a two-class economy with the economic royalty in charge
of 90% or more of the wealth by charging into Iraq without the
personnel or planning to even keep hspitals from looting, let
alone restore water and electricity or police functions.

Signature

Steve Caple

Art Marsh - 14 Feb 2004 19:32 GMT
> But they DID have to let W jump ahead of 500 some applicants
> to get what he has admitted was his alternative to Canada or
> jail, or [God forbid!!] combat.  Not to mention we'll never
> know what Karen Hughes and friends removed when they sanitized
> his records years ago.
> Steve Caple

One way to find out is for Bush to release his official DOD microfiche
records. This fiche was updated annually and includes all actions (for and
against), orders, and awards made for or given to him. It would be extremely
difficult to purge or sanitize that data. However, a letter of repremand may
or may not be included.

Art
Jim - 14 Feb 2004 19:41 GMT
<snip>
>One way to find out is for Bush to release his official DOD microfiche
>records. This fiche was updated annually and includes all actions (for and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Art

Especially as many Letters of Repremand were the "it goes in my desk
drawer, you fly right for 'x' months and it goes in the garbage" kind.

Jim
Art Marsh - 14 Feb 2004 21:49 GMT
> <snip>
> >One way to find out is for Bush to release his official DOD microfiche
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Jim

Jim, Some non-judicial punishments (including almost all Article 15 actions
at the time) and performance orientated counseling are not permanent in
nature.

In the case of an Article 15 and Letter/statement of reprimand (LOR) the
convening authority (usually the 1st field grade officer in the chain of
command or commander) has the option to make it part of the permanent 201
file or keep it temporary. More serious infractions usually went to the
permanent file however attendance issues usually would stay at the unit
level and not transfer with the soldier.

LORs that were kept temporary would expire one year after issuance or when
the soldier transferred (Including from a TDY status back to a Main Party
unit). In either event the documents would be pulled from the soldiers field
201 file and all copies destroyed. So even if Bush did have an adverse
action while in Alabama it would not have followed him back to Texas. These
various rules lasted well into the late 1980s and even partially into the
1990s.

Statements of Unauthorized absences are more commonly referred to as "U
letters" and are issued quite regularly.

Art
MrRathburne - 15 Feb 2004 02:09 GMT
Always amazing how Clinton God suckers can whine like this.
Sad but amazing.  

GET A LIFE YOU LOSERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

> <snip>
> >One way to find out is for Bush to release his official DOD microfiche
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Jim
Steve Caple - 15 Feb 2004 03:03 GMT
Well, we can rest assured that Rathburne's local quicky mart
hasn't run out of beer.

Signature

Steve Caple

DaveW - 15 Feb 2004 06:15 GMT
For the record, my various automobiles have had the following bumper
stickers, in reverse order:

Impeach Bush
Impeach Clinton
Impeach Bush
Imprech Regean
Impeach Carter

I wasn't old enough to drive, but I would have included Ford, Nixon and
Johnson in the mix.

So, if Kerry wins, I will soon have to fire up the printer!

Regards,

DAve
Steve Caple - 15 Feb 2004 09:15 GMT
> Impeach Bush
> Impeach Clinton
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I wasn't old enough to drive, but I would have included Ford, Nixon and
> Johnson in the mix.

I had one back in Reagan times that read "IMPOOCH MOOSE"

(remember the Inslaw scandal?)

Signature

Steve Caple

MrRathburne - 15 Feb 2004 19:38 GMT
Emily, you should take the 8 hours between bottle and keyboard stand
to prevent this type of post that embarasses you.

> > Impeach Bush
> > Impeach Clinton
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> (remember the Inslaw scandal?)
Larry Blanchard - 15 Feb 2004 17:17 GMT
> Well, we can rest assured that Rathburne's local quicky mart
> hasn't run out of beer.

You noticed that too :-).

Signature

Where ARE those Iraqi WMDs?

Marty Hall - 15 Feb 2004 19:49 GMT
> Always amazing how Clinton God suckers can whine like this.
> Sad but amazing.  
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> >
> > Jim

Kind of lonely here with all us Democrats, huh, Rathburne  Thanks Marty Hall
MrRathburne - 16 Feb 2004 00:13 GMT
John, with all your mulitiple personalities and screennames, I am sure
you are never lonely.  When you need someone to talk to, you just make
them up out of thin air to back yourself up, like 'Marty' and 'Jerry'.

> > Always amazing how Clinton God suckers can whine like this.
> > Sad but amazing.  
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Kind of lonely here with all us Democrats, huh, Rathburne  Thanks Marty Hall
CBix - 16 Feb 2004 03:38 GMT
> Kind of lonely here with all us Democrats, huh, Rathburne  Thanks Marty Hall

Guess you have all the Republicans here "whipped" huh John?
JCunington - 16 Feb 2004 06:49 GMT
>Kind of lonely here with all us Democrats, huh, Rathburne  Thanks Marty Hall

Don't forget us independents. I tend to swing both ways on the ballot. It all
depends on who's up for what.

Jay
CNS&M North Shore Line - "First and fastest"
Steve Caple - 16 Feb 2004 10:19 GMT
JCunington said:
> I tend to swing both ways ... It all depends
> on who's up for what.

> Jay  ... "First and fastest"

Well, nothin' to brag about   . . .

Signature

Movie Blurbs R Us

JCunington - 16 Feb 2004 19:04 GMT
>JCunington said:
>> I tend to swing both ways ... It all depends
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Well, nothin' to brag about   . . .

A lie of omission. You left out "on the ballot". A little omission to pursue an
agenda. What are you, a journalist? <G>

Not that I am, despite Steve's editing, but "Being bisexual automatically
doubles your chances of getting a date." - Harlan Ellison

Jay
CNS&M North Shore Line - "First and fastest"
Steve Caple - 16 Feb 2004 20:46 GMT
>  What are you, a journalist? <G>

No, something far worse: a public relations type <g>

Signature

Movie Blurbs R Us

WinBear (Bob Horton) - 15 Feb 2004 19:27 GMT
I just found this and thought I'd share it...

The Washington Times
www.washingtontimes.com

Letters to the Editor
Published February 11, 2004

'Bush and I were lieutenants'
George Bush and I were lieutenants and pilots in the 111th Fighter
Interceptor Squadron (FIS), Texas Air National Guard (ANG) from 1970 to
1971. We had the same flight and squadron commanders (Maj. William Harris
and Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, both now deceased). While we were not part of
the same social circle outside the base, we were in the same fraternity of
fighter pilots, and proudly wore the same squadron patch.
It is quite frustrating to hear the daily cacophony from the left and Sen.
John Kerry, Massachusetts Democrat, et al., about Lt. Bush escaping his
military responsibilities by hiding in the Texas ANG. In the Air Guard
during the Vietnam War, you were always subject to call-up, as many Air
National Guardsmen are finding out today. If the 111th FIS and Lt. Bush did
not go to Vietnam, blame President Johnson and Secretary of Defense Robert
S. McNamara, not lowly Lt. Bush. They deliberately avoided use of the Guard
and Reserves for domestic political calculations, knowing that a draftee
only stirred up the concerns of one family, while a call-up got a whole
community's attention.
The mission of the 147th Fighter Group and its subordinate 111th FIS, Texas
ANG, and the airplane it possessed, the F-102, was air defense. It was
focused on defending the continental United States from Soviet nuclear
bombers. The F-102 could not drop bombs and would have been useless in
Vietnam. A pilot program using ANG volunteer pilots in F-102s (called Palace
Alert) was scrapped quickly after the airplane proved to be unsuitable to
the war effort. Ironically, Lt. Bush did inquire about this program but was
advised by an ANG supervisor (Maj. Maurice Udell, retired) that he did not
have the desired experience (500 hours) at the time and that the program was
winding down and not accepting more volunteers.
If you check the 111th FIS records of 1970-72 and any other ANG squadron,
you will find other pilots excused for career obligations and conflicts. The
Bush excusal in 1972 was further facilitated by a change in the unit's
mission, from an operational fighter squadron to a training squadron with a
new airplane, the F-101, which required that more pilots be available for
full-time instructor duty rather than part-time traditional reservists with
outside employment.
The winding down of the Vietnam War in 1971 provided a flood of exiting
active-duty pilots for these instructor jobs, making part-timers like Lt.
Bush and me somewhat superfluous. There was a huge glut of pilots in the Air
Force in 1972, and with no cockpits available to put them in, many were
shoved into nonflying desk jobs. Any pilot could have left the Air Force or
the Air Guard with ease after 1972 before his commitment was up because
there just wasn't room for all of them anymore.
Sadly, few of today's partisan pundits know anything about the environment
of service in the Reserves in the 1970s. The image of a reservist at that
time is of one who joined, went off for six months' basic training, then
came back and drilled weekly or monthly at home, with two weeks of "summer
camp." With the knowledge that Mr. Johnson and Mr. McNamara were not going
to call out the Reserves, it did become a place of refuge for many wanting
to avoid Vietnam.
There was one big exception to this abusive use of the Guard to avoid the
draft, and that was for those who wanted to fly, as pilots or crew members.
Because of the training required, signing up for this duty meant up to 2½
years of active duty for training alone, plus a high probability of
mobilization. A fighter-pilot candidate selected by the Guard (such as Lt.
Bush and me) would be spending the next two years on active duty going
through basic training (six weeks), flight training (one year), survival
training (two weeks) and combat crew training for his aircraft (six to nine
months), followed by local checkout (up to three more months) before he was
even deemed combat-ready. Because the draft was just two years, you sure
weren't getting out of duty being an Air Guard pilot. If the unit to which
you were going back was an F-100, you were mobilized for Vietnam. Avoiding
service? Yeah, tell that to those guys.
The Bush critics do not comprehend the dangers of fighter aviation at any
time or place, in Vietnam or at home, when they say other such pilots were
risking their lives or even dying while Lt. Bush was in Texas. Our Texas ANG
unit lost several planes right there in Houston during Lt. Bush's tenure,
with fatalities. Just strapping on one of those obsolescing F-102s was
risking one's life.
Critics such as Mr. Kerry (who served in Vietnam, you know), Terry McAuliffe
and Michael Moore (neither of whom served anywhere) say Lt. Bush abandoned
his assignment as a jet fighter pilot without explanation or authorization
and was AWOL from the Alabama Air Guard.
Well, as for abandoning his assignment, this is untrue. Lt. Bush was excused
for a period to take employment in Florida for a congressman and later in
Alabama for a Senate campaign.
Excusals for employment were common then and are now in the Air Guard, as
pilots frequently are in career transitions, and most commanders (as I later
was) are flexible in letting their charges take care of career affairs until
they return or transfer to another unit near their new employment. Sometimes
they will transfer temporarily to another unit to keep them on the active
list until they can return home. The receiving unit often has little use for
a transitory member, especially in a high-skills category like a pilot,
because those slots usually are filled and, if not filled, would require
extensive conversion training of up to six months, an unlikely option for a
temporary hire.
As a commander, I would put such "visitors" in some minor administrative
post until they went back home. There even were a few instances when I was
unaware that they were on my roster because the paperwork often lagged.
Today, I can't even recall their names. If a Lt. Bush came into my unit to
"pull drills" for a couple of months, I wouldn't be too involved with him
because I would have a lot more important things on my table keeping the
unit combat ready.
Another frequent charge is that, as a member of the Texas ANG, Lt. Bush
twice ignored or disobeyed lawful orders, first by refusing to report for a
required physical in the year when drug testing first became part of the
exam, and second by failing to report for duty at the disciplinary unit in
Colorado to which he had been ordered. Well, here are the facts:
First, there is no instance of Lt. Bush disobeying lawful orders in
reporting for a physical, as none would be given. Pilots are scheduled for
their annual flight physicals in their birth month during that month's
weekend drill assembly -- the only time the clinic is open. In the Reserves,
it is not uncommon to miss this deadline by a month or so for a variety of
reasons: The clinic is closed that month for special training; the
individual is out of town on civilian business; etc.
If so, the pilot is grounded temporarily until he completes the physical.
Also, the formal drug testing program was not instituted by the Air Force
until the 1980s and is done randomly by lot, not as a special part of a
flight physical, when one easily could abstain from drug use because of its
date certain. Blood work is done, but to ensure a healthy pilot, not
confront a drug user.
Second, there was no such thing as a "disciplinary unit in Colorado" to
which Lt. Bush had been ordered. The Air Reserve Personnel Center in Denver
is a repository of the paperwork for those no longer assigned to a specific
unit, such as retirees and transferees. Mine is there now, so I guess I'm
"being disciplined." These "disciplinary units" just don't exist. Any
discipline, if required, is handled within the local squadron, group or
wing, administratively or judicially. Had there been such an infraction or
court-martial action, there would be a record and a reflection in Lt. Bush's
performance review and personnel folder. None exists, as was confirmed in
The Washington Post in 2000.
Finally, the Kerrys, Moores and McAuliffes are casting a terrible slander on
those who served in the Guard, then and now. My Guard career parallels Lt.
Bush's, except that I stayed on for 33 years. As a guardsman, I even got to
serve in two campaigns. In the Cold War, the air defense of the United
States was borne primarily by the Air National Guard, by such people as Lt.
Bush and me and a lot of others. Six of those with whom I served in those
years never made their 30th birthdays because they died in crashes flying
air-defense missions.
While most of America was sleeping and Mr. Kerry was playing antiwar games
with Hanoi Jane Fonda, we were answering 3 a.m. scrambles for who knows what
inbound threat over the Canadian subarctic, the cold North Atlantic and the
shark-filled Gulf of Mexico. We were the pathfinders in showing that the
Guard and Reserves could become reliable members of the first team in the
total force, so proudly evidenced today in Afghanistan and Iraq.
It didn't happen by accident. It happened because back at the nadir of Guard
fortunes in the early '70s, a lot of volunteer guardsman showed they were
ready and able to accept the responsibilities of soldier and citizen -- then
and now. Lt. Bush was a kid whose congressman father encouraged him to serve
in the Air National Guard. We served proudly in the Guard. Would that Mr.
Kerry encourage his children and the children of his colleague senators and
congressmen to serve now in the Guard.
In the fighter-pilot world, we have a phrase we use when things are starting
to get out of hand and it's time to stop and reset before disaster strikes.
We say, "Knock it off." So, Mr. Kerry and your friends who want to slander
the Guard: Knock it off.

COL. WILLIAM CAMPENNI (retired)
U.S. Air Force/Air National Guard
Herndon, Va.5

Copyright © 2004 News World Communications, Inc. All rights reserved.

Return to the article
___________________________________________________________________________________________

It seems the Democrats are having to ignore an awful lot of facts to turn
this teakettle into a tempest...

WinBear
Art Marsh - 16 Feb 2004 00:02 GMT
> I just found this and thought I'd share it...
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Letters to the Editor
> Published February 11, 2004

Thank you Bob!

Col. Campenni has stated the real world fact much better than I ever could.
He was quite correct in stating that the 102 was a lousy fit for Vietnam
duty. They were flown there for slightly less than a year in the mid-1960s
well before Bush even joined.

I assume that he spoke only from his experience in the Texas ANG (TANG) in
guaranteed deployment of F-100 ANG units. I assure you that many more ANG
units that flew Vietnam war compatible aircraft went as well. I know that
The Kansas Air National Guard (KANG) deployed aircraft and personnel for the
following types, F-100 & F-105 (Vietnam), KC-135 (SE Asia), B-52 (SE Asia
for Vietnam), RB-57 (SE Asia/Vietnam), C-130 (Vietnam). Some of these units
deployed only pilots and service crews while others deployed the complete
unit. If Kansas Guard units alone deployed in this manor, I can assume most
of the other states did as well.

I am not sure that Kerry or his staff has spoken of the Bush Alabama TDY
issue. I know the other candidates and the DNC has for sure. I still say
they are barking up the wrong tree.

Art
Art Marsh - 16 Feb 2004 00:21 GMT
Oops, Should have read KANG and AF Reserves that deployed,

Sorry,
Art
Okiechoochoo - 16 Feb 2004 20:33 GMT
> > I just found this and thought I'd share it...
> >
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> Art

You are right that the Kansas Army Guard units were deployed to VN.
In fact, one of the companies walked into a VC ambush, if I remember
correctly, and got wiped out almost to the man.  Seems to me like it
was a SE Kansas town, Cherryvale, Coffeyville or some place down in
that part of the state.  Being in the Guard was no disgrace.  Bush
served his time so leave it alone.  The real issue now is the economy,
healthare, social security and medicare.  We need reform which Bush
has not given us.  Even the issue of Iraq is not important to me.  We
invaded them, in my opinion without cause, but we did invade them.
Now Sadam is gone and I suppose the world is better off, we are
certainly in debt now, that is for sure.  But that (Iraq) is no longer
the issue.  How we get our troops home and how soon is the issue.
National security is not a big deal now either.  They have gone
bonkers with the Patriot Act, eroding our freedoms and I doubt that
ever goes away.  I doubt that we will ever see weapons of mass
destruction used against us by terrorist in this country again.  They
did all they could on 9-11.  Now we must concentrate on social
economic issues, reducing the debt, stop outsourcing jobs overseas and
get this country back to work.  That is why I am voting for John Kerry
JCunington - 16 Feb 2004 23:42 GMT
>That is why I am voting for John Kerry

I've not heard Kerry say anything about jobs in the sound bites...and I missed
the WI debate last night, darn it. Dang family always gets in the way.

I don't care if they stop outsourcing jobs. Just tax the hell out of companies
that do. Don't outlaw, just make it prohibitively expensive. Make them pay for
putting their people out of work, which the gov't can then turn around and pass
out as unemployment benefits.

Jay
CNS&M North Shore Line - "First and fastest"
JCunington - 14 Feb 2004 20:44 GMT
>One year I was attending a course of
>instruction at a post without a flight surgeon (FS) when I came due. Without
>a FS, I could not take a flight physical and so I automatically came off of
>flight status (grounded) until I passed the physical.

That's the difference between journalism and living it, I guess.

> A far better tack would be to
>determine what the ANG's policies were for mandatory drill and Annual
>Training attendance during the Vietnam War years and did he comply with
>those policies.

What, have a journalist do research and digging? That'd involve work!

Jay
CNS&M North Shore Line - "First and fastest"
Art Marsh - 14 Feb 2004 21:53 GMT
> What, have a journalist do research and digging? That'd involve work!
> Jay
> CNS&M North Shore Line - "First and fastest"

I was refering more to the DNC as they are the ones really pushing it and
keeping it in the press. I would assume that it would be childs play for an
investigative reporter to dig this information out of their morgue. It would
have been well known and documented at the time.

I simply am surprised that no one has thought to do so.

Art
JCunington - 14 Feb 2004 23:00 GMT
>I would assume that it would be childs play for an
>investigative reporter to dig this information out of their morgue. It would
>have been well known and documented at the time.
>
>I simply am surprised that no one
>has thought to do so.

And that's what I meant. It'd involve work, rather than being fed DNC pap and
regurgitating it in the paper.

Jay
CNS&M North Shore Line - "First and fastest"
Art Marsh - 14 Feb 2004 22:13 GMT
> >One year I was attending a course of
> >instruction at a post without a flight surgeon (FS) when I came due. Without
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Jay
> CNS&M North Shore Line - "First and fastest"

I just read that the Alabama ANG unit had Bush in a non-flying status roll
so He would not have wanted to take a physical at all as it would be a