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Model Forum / General / Railroads / April 2004WW II Live Steam Engine Info
Our model railroad club is hosting an area convention in two weeks. We have made arrangements with the local museum to display a live steam engine that may have once been owned by World War II German Reichemarchall Hermann Göring. A local returning soldier brought the large model of a French railways engine back to Canada after the war. There was a detailed article on the engine in a local paper in 1945. It was supposed to have been obtained at a large estate near Bremen, supposedly owned by Göring. Now here is where we can use some help: The New Brunswick Museum which now owns the steamer, has not been able to verify that it was once owned by Göring. They do have photographic proof of a large model train layout at his large hunting lodge called Carinhall, northeast of Berlin. But one of the photos clearly shows three-rail track similar to that used by Lionel trains. And they have not been able to determine if Göring had an estate near Bremen or if he did have live steam engines. So they do not have any proof of the engine's ownership other than the claim of the returning soldier. We have a website for our convention, and have seven photos of the live steam engine. I don't know anything about live steamers, but its operation seems to be a mystery. There is a removable plug in the top of the boiler where water could be added, but there is no apparent way to fuel it. The tender does not appear to have any piping or anything to connect a possible fuel source to the engine. There is a small tank under the boiler that could be the firebox. Does anyone have any info on the Göring live steam operations? Or have any idea where one could find such info? Thanks! Bob Boudreau railfan (NO SPAM) @ post.com Saint John, N. B. Canada Web page: http://www.geocities.com/rails2sea/Goring1.html A lot of those pre war model used Methylated Spirit. I had a old engine which had a removable tray with a absorbent pad in it that you soaked. A safer alternative was solid fuel tablets by a firm called Mamod but I dont think you can get them anymore. Perhaps there's a modern equivilent. Folks, A while ago I was looking into Goering's model railway layout. As far as I could find out it was O gauge three rail electric.But he may also have had some live steamers as well. It is said that on the advance of the Red army towards Berlin, Goering packed up all his treasures, including the layout, and moved them to a location in Austria, where, late in the war or after its end they were discovered by troops of a U.S. airborne div. It is also said that the model railway stuff was sold at their Post Exchange, so certainly some of it could have come to the U.S.A. The live steamer mentioned, if from Goering, would probably be by Marklin, and if so should be marked somewhere on it.It is possible that the discovery of Goering's hoard would have been written up at the time in the U.S. Army newspaper, 'Stars and Stripes', so if copies of this paper still exist, they may be worth chasing up for further info. Regards, Bill > A lot of those pre war model used Methylated Spirit. I had a old engine > which had a removable tray with a absorbent pad in it that you soaked. A > safer alternative was solid fuel tablets by a firm called Mamod but I dont > think you can get them anymore. Perhaps there's a modern equivilent. > Folks, > A while ago I was looking into Goering's model railway layout. As far as [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Regards, > Bill Bill: Thanks for the message and info! The steam engine in question is property of the museum, and is fastened to the display base so the underneath cannot be accessed to see if there are any manufacturers' marks. Even to touch it they require that we wear cotton gloves. I assume the models you are referring to may be a different collection, as the one in the local museum was brought back by a returning local Canadian soldier whose outfit discovered the estate with the railway. It is quite well described in the 1945 newspaper article I copied on the web page. Cheers, Bob Boudreau Saint John, N. B. Canada Bob - can you slip a dentist's mirror under the chassis? With this and one of those little light-tube things that doctors use to poke around inside you, you may be able to get a view under the engine without having to remove it from it's base. Ed +++snippety+++ > Bill: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Saint John, N. B. > Canada > Bob - can you slip a dentist's mirror under the chassis? With this and one > of those little light-tube things that doctors use to poke around inside > you, you may be able to get a view under the engine without having to remove > it from it's base. > > Ed Ed: The curators at the museum already already tried the mirror thing, and reported they couldn't see anything worthwhile. Cheers, Bob Boudreau > > Bob - can you slip a dentist's mirror under the chassis? With this and one > > of those little light-tube things that doctors use to poke around inside [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > The curators at the museum already already tried the mirror thing, and > reported they couldn't see anything worthwhile. Did they try taking rubbings of the parts that have been painted over post-war? It would be interestng to know what is under the paint (even an outline could be revealing). > The live steamer mentioned, if from Goering, would probably be by > Marklin, and if so should be marked somewhere on it. Looking at the photos, it looks too crude a model to have been commercially produced by Marklin or the like. salvé > > The live steamer mentioned, if from Goering, would probably be by > > Marklin, and if so should be marked somewhere on it. > > Looking at the photos, it looks too crude a model to have been > commercially produced by Marklin or the like. Dear Mark, are we looking at the same model?! the photos I saw were of a model that is way in advance of what Märklin marketed upto ww2 and its a live steam model to boot, ther are live steamers being sold toady of crude manufacture than this! Beowulf I agree with Mark, the loco. looks as if it might have been scratch built. I doubt whether Goering, who had plenty of cash, would not have bought the best that was available at the time, and that model doesn't look quite that. Do we know the gauge?. Regards, Bill. NOSPAM@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message news:40901BE9.4070109@optusnet.com.au... > > The live steamer mentioned, if from Goering, would probably be by > > Marklin, and if so should be marked somewhere on it. > > Looking at the photos, it looks too crude a model to have been > commercially produced by Marklin or the like. > > The live steamer mentioned, if from Goering, would probably be by > > Marklin, and if so should be marked somewhere on it. > Looking at the photos, it looks too crude a model to have been > commercially produced by Marklin or the like. I tend to disagree with those saying it is scratch built and side with those saying it's commercial: o As pointed out, smaller scale live steam requires robust parts that tend to look crude. o Almost all machinists spending the time to make a live steam model with working valve gear etc. also spend the time to make a functional fire tube boiler and boiler feed system. o Use of a closed single shot "pot" boiler with an external pan type heat source is more typical of commercial live steam toy design. I also wonder if the model may not be from the late 1930's, but rather earlier. Doing a quick search in Google, I found a picture of the apparent prototype at http://www.chapelon.net/cgi-bin/i/pics/plm6101_1.jpg The text notes that this design dated from 1908. Assuming that it is a commercial model, there is a tendency for toy manufacturers to choose recent prototypes for their models. This also could account for some of the apparent crudeness of the model. However, my copy of "The Toy Collector" by Hertz shows a Marklin live steam 4-4-0 from around 1910, and while it has some similarities to the "Goering" model, it seems to be somewhat more crude and toy-like. This site also has a page about French numbering schemes http://www.chapelon.net/frnumsys.htm The model carries number "150 V1" for the P.L.M. The photo of the PLM pacific has number 6101 but the text suggests this was an early numbering scheme. The scheme for which the PLM was noted used a system based on wheel arrangement and class, so a Pacific should carry a 231-x-y type number. Under this PLM system, a 150 V1 should be a Decapod. This suggests the number on the model may be a latter addition. I wonder if the Germans renumbered the French RR locos during their occupation - if so, they might have used a system like that in Germany with loco numbers based on an initial numerical locomotive class? The site implies it is not a latter SNCF number as SNCF class 150 were ex-P.O. locos. Interesting puzzle. Gary Q |
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