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Model Forum / General / Railroads / June 2004Model Railroad Philosophy: What constitutes Scratch Building?
Ben, In my opinion, scratchbuilding can be defined as building anything that isn't a pre-made kit. Dave -- From: Benjamin Barby (bmbarby@sympatico.ca) Subject: Model Railroad Philosophy: What constitutes Scratch Building? Newsgroups: rec.models.railroad Date: 1999/03/10 I was just wondering how 'scratch' something had to be for it to be scratch built. I wanted to scratch build a car, so I went and bought some nice metal trucks and wheelsets for it, but someone told me that it wasn't scratch build because I purchased parts. So I went to make my own; I got some metal stock and just as I was about half way through, someone told me it wasn't scratch because someone had manufactured the metal. So I went out and got some ore and smelted my own metal, cast it in to ingots, & rolled it down into stock and sheets I could use. OK so far. (There was some grumbling though, because I hadn't made my own lathe) Then I went out and purchased some scribed wood to use on the car itself. Welll, you can't do that, it's purchased; someone else did the work; so I went and bought plain stock and scribed it myself. Not good enought. So I went and purchased a 2x4... Same thing. So off I went to the forest, and chopped down my own tree, dragged it home and started to dress the wood, when someone informed me that it didn't count, because someone else had grown the tree. So I took a seed, went outside, planted it..... Years later I was informed that my efforts were in vain because even though I had put the seed in the ground, someone else had created the seed. Not only that, but it wasn't me who personally made the seed grow, it was God, so it didn't count any way..... So I'm wondering, how scratch does something have to be before it's scratch built? Benjamin ;-) I've got waaaay too much time on my hands! :-) -- Benjamin Barby bmbarby@bbqsympatico.ca Please eat the tasty Barby-Q provided in the e-mail address! That way I don't have to eat the spam later! :-) As long as we're into philosophy ... Is major kitbashing scratch-building? Norm > As long as we're into philosophy ... > > Is major kitbashing scratch-building? > > Norm Not in my mind. Check the NMRA web site under contests for definitions for what they consider scratch building. Howard R Garner NMRA Lifer > Check the NMRA web site under contests for definitions for what they > consider scratch building. It is actually at the NMRA web site under "Achievement Program." http://www.nmra.org/achievement/def.html Scratchbuilt: To be considered scratchbuilt, a model must have been constructed by the applicant without the use of any commercial parts except: Motor Gears Drivers and wheels Couplers Light bulbs Trucks Bell Marker and classification lights Valve gear Car brake fittings Basic wood, metal and plastic shapes The term "scratchbuilt" carries the implication that the builder alone has accomplished all of the necessary layout and fabrication which establish the final dimensions, appearance, and operating qualities of the scale model. > > Check the NMRA web site under contests for definitions for what they > > consider scratch building. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > establish the final dimensions, appearance, and operating qualities of > the scale model. I suppose when I'm worried about the NMRA I'll follow those rules. I had a grand old time snapping the plastic for my walls, cutting the rectanges for my door and window castings, and fabricating my shingles for the roof from card stock one strip at a time. My major cheat was hiring a laser cutting firm to fabricate the intricate eaves ornaments. Yes I used castings for the chimnies, but the little spire, the station sign and the trim on the building were all me and strop styrene. Dave Anyone wants a looksee, click here: DL&W Franklin station in northwest New Jersey, U.S.A. http://dlw-sussexbranch.com/Modeling/Plans/Franklin/great-one.JPG : I suppose when I'm worried about the NMRA I'll follow those rules. I : had a grand old time snapping the plastic for my walls, cutting the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] : DL&W Franklin station in northwest New Jersey, U.S.A. : http://dlw-sussexbranch.com/Modeling/Plans/Franklin/great-one.JPG Very nice job Dave! Thanks for sharing.  Signature73 de KTØT Bob Schwartz Modeling Waseca, MN in the 50s >Anyone wants a looksee, click here: >DL&W Franklin station in northwest New Jersey, U.S.A. >http://dlw-sussexbranch.com/Modeling/Plans/Franklin/great-one.JPG Excellent job! Thanks for the pic. Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" >As long as we're into philosophy ... > > Is major kitbashing scratch-building? > >Norm Absolutely not. Kitbashing is kitbashing, no matter how extreme, and is based on starting with existing walls or wall sections (in the case of a structure) which are being modified to a new purpose. Scratchbuilding is a different animal altogether, where the modeler's starting point is nothing but basic structural parts such as boards, timbers, structural members (angles, beams, columns), etc. It's a comparison similar to that of purchasing a modular home and somewhat re-arranging the sections or constructing a stick-built house from the foundation up yourself. CNJ999 What was interesting and head scratching for judges some time ago was; A person who bought a FSM kit. He put the kit in a sack and bought wood parts. He then used the plans and the wood parts to build with. A total scratch built building. So insued a large discussion? (shouting match) as to whether this was a kit or a scratch built building. If I remember correctly as he had the original parts and the receipt for the wood it had to be considered "scratch". Jon Miller posts: > What was interesting and head scratching for judges some time ago was; > A person who bought a FSM kit. He put the kit in a sack and bought wood [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > If I remember correctly as he had the original parts and the receipt for >the wood it had to be considered "scratch". I thought story in this response particularly interesting since I followed the same practice in building an FSM piledriver for an NER NMRA model contest. The judges never even blinked an eye nor posed any question about the model being in fact considered scratchbuilt. Incidentally, I'd regard building many of FSM's kits as essentially scratchbuilding projects since they are sometimes nothing but piles of stripwood accompanied by detailed instructions. Other more modern AMB, Bar Mills, etc. laser kits are, however, far, far less along the lines of "scratchbuilt" items than those by FSM. CNJ999 >an FSM piledriver for an NER NMRA model contest A "piledriver" is also the name for a drink consisting of vodka mixed with prune juice. :-) Dieter Zakas Constipation, NJ >I'd regard building many of FSM's kits as essentially scratchbuilding projects since they are sometimes nothing but piles of stripwood accompanied by detailed instructions< One of the reasons that points have been shifted from the old days. There are now more points to be earned with prototype accuracy! Forgot, this model was on display at a LHS for many months. > I thought story in this response particularly interesting since I > followed the same practice in building an FSM piledriver for an NER > NMRA model contest. The judges never even blinked an eye nor posed any > question about the model being in fact considered scratchbuilt. What did you do about the metal castings in the original FSM kit? Mark posts - >> I thought the story in this response particularly interesting since I >> followed the same practice in building an FSM piledriver for an NER >> NMRA model contest. The judges never even blinked an eye nor posed any >> question about the model being in fact considered scratchbuilt. > >What did you do about the metal castings in the original FSM kit? For the most part I frabricated similar items out of styrene and wire. The steam boiler alone required something like 37 separate parts/pieces. CNJ999 yes i have seen this done before. > >As long as we're into philosophy ... > > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > re-arranging the sections or constructing a stick-built house from the > foundation up yourself. Hmmm, but you buy ready made windows and doors, bricks and kitchen fittings ...? Regards, Greg.P. > > >As long as we're into philosophy ... > > > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Regards, > Greg.P. Personally, I have always let the contractor build the thing. Cant find one 1/2 tall, though. Jim Stewart >As long as we're into philosophy ... > > Is major kitbashing scratch-building? > >Norm No doubt this will start something<G> Scratch-building involves using detail parts that are purchased as well as making your own - maybe. There are specific guidelines set out by the NMRA that define what percentage of a model, kitbashed or otherwise, must be built from raw materials in order to qualify as scratch-built. The short answer is yes. The long answer is that it must meet certain criteria to qualify as an official, NMRA sanctioned scratch-built model. It depends on whether or not you want to use the official NMRA criteria to fit your definition. If you want to be recognized and published in the hobby press in the USA, you will conform to the requirements. From what I have seen and derived on my own, they are even stricter in western Europe and the Antipodes than we are in the States and Canada. There are some Brits who maintain that you must make all your own castings and such to qualify. The only way the question can be answered is to refer to the governing authority under which you will be exhibiting your model or making your claim. It is not something that is open to opinion- unless- you are un-sanctioned. In that case, it doesn't matter anyway. One opinion is as good as another. > As long as we're into philosophy ... > > Is major kitbashing scratch-building? > > Norm I avoid the whole problem by using the word scratchbashing :) SignatureJason Davies Master Gizmologist Cream City Traction Club http"//www.geocities.com/jason_e_davies/cct.html > As long as we're into philosophy ... > > Is major kitbashing scratch-building? No - the "scratch" of scratch building refered/refers to the marking out or scratching on sheet metal. However, if you build your base model and add over the counter details then you're still scratch building. The use of proprietry motors, gears and wheels is also ok. There's a fine line between! :-) > Norm > No - the "scratch" of scratch building refered/refers to the > marking out or scratching on sheet metal. No, I'm pretty sure it comes from the noun "scratch," not the verb. The scratch is the starting point; the very beginning. If you scratchbuilt a model, you've started from a beginning point at which nothing has been done for you ahead of time. > However, if you build your base model and add over the counter > details then you're still scratch building. According to the generally accepted NMRA definition, that is not scratchbuilding -- the over-the-counter details are not from scratch. Remember -- there is an advantage of giving things names that reflect their function, you can figure out what they are from the name! > > No - the "scratch" of scratch building refered/refers to the > > marking out or scratching on sheet metal. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Remember -- there is an advantage of giving things names that reflect their > function, you can figure out what they are from the name! OK, let's see you build something - anything - out of a scratch! ;-) > OK, let's see you build something - anything - out of a scratch! ;-) Certainly things like flatcar and gondola loads; but as soon as I put it on a freight car it doesn't qualify (I haven't attempted to build a freight car from scratch). I've got an highway overpass concealing the end of my freight yard where it butts up against a wall made from Plastruct beams, strips and half-rounds -- plus a sheet of a "for sale" plastic sign for the railroad crash walls, roadway, sidewalk and parapet (a la Big John). The question remains: although I fabricated the posts and rails supporting the chain link fence on the parapet from styrene shapes, the chain link fence itself was from Plastruct's chain link fence material. (How is that stuff classified? The NMRA treats embossed brick sheets as a scratch building material, I wonder if chain link fence material is treated the same.) It probably doesn't matter, since there's an Alloy Forms truck on the bridge... and it's on my layout which has kits on it... *gasp*! But then again I never claimed to be a scratch builder in any of my messages; I know what using the term means. SignatureMark Mathu The Green Bay Route: http://www.greenbayroute.com/ "I started out with nothing and I still have most of it." Hi Mark, > > OK, let's see you build something - anything - out of a scratch! ;-) > > Certainly things like flatcar and gondola loads; I think you missed my humour in response to yours! Quote: "> Remember -- there is an advantage of giving things names that reflect their function, you can figure out what they are from the name!" > but as soon as I put it on a > freight car it doesn't qualify (I haven't attempted to build a freight car [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > The Green Bay Route: http://www.greenbayroute.com/ > "I started out with nothing and I still have most of it." >> Certainly things like flatcar and gondola loads; > > I think you missed my humour in response to yours! You're right; I did. Gregory Procter <procter@ihug.co.nz> wrote: > OK, let's see you build something - anything - out of a scratch! ;-) Make a lot of them close together and you'll have a diffraction grating. -- Bill Kaiser wkaiser@mtholyoke.edu There are three ways to do a job: good, cheap, and quick. You can have any two. A good, cheap job won't be quick. A good, quick job won't be cheap. A cheap, quick job won't be good. > > OK, let's see you build something - anything - out of a scratch! ;-) > > Make a lot of them close together and you'll have a diffraction grating. I'll give you a top Mark for that one! ;-) > As long as we're into philosophy ... > > Is major kitbashing scratch-building? > > Norm What happens if I get a company to make brass etching from my drawings. I then build the kit I have designed. Have I scratch built or kit built? SignatureTerry Flynn For HO scale track standards go to http://angelfire.com/clone/rail/index.html also includes details of HO wagon weight and locomotive tractive effort estimates > > As long as we're into philosophy ... > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > What happens if I get a company to make brass etching from my drawings. I > then build the kit I have designed. Have I scratch built or kit built? In my opinion that would be kit built. I had a laser cutting firm make the eave ornamentation for my station. Then they said they liked the drawings I had online for another station and wanted to do a laser cut kit of that. I'll be getting a free kit when it's done to assemble and comment on. I can hardly wait! Dave SignatureModeling the D.L.& W. Sussex Branch http://dlw-sussexbranch.com/modeling_index.html Someone asked: >> What happens if I get a company to make brass etching from my drawings. I >> then build the kit I have designed. Have I scratch built or kit built? To which Dave replied >In my opinion that would be kit built. ............. > >Dave With which Froggy disagrees. Just because I have the ability to make a mold for injection molding a plastic body shell for a locomotive does not make it one tiny bit less scratch built than the one built by gluing thousands of plastic parts together. The fact is that the mold used to form the body was designed and built by me for the purpose of making the model, thus it is nothing more than just another tool. I happen to have made hundreds of things using CNC mills and lathes that operate from CAD drawings. I made the drawings, then made the items. Had I not has the tools I would have had the items made by someone who did. Never the less, I defy anyone to say, and prove, that is not scratchbuilding. You do not have to use primitive tools or methods to scratchbuild. That is a mistaken belief many people cling to. Or, if you prefer, .....to which many people cling. > Just because I have the ability to make a mold for injection molding a plastic body > shell for a locomotive does not make it one tiny bit less scratch built than the one [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > belief many people cling to. > Or, if you prefer, .....to which many people cling. Froggy, Yours would indead be considered "scratch built" since you did all the work yourself. If you had farmed out the machine work on the mold it would be less so. That would make for some interesting discussion by some of the judging teams I have been with. Howard NMRA lifer and sometimes Judge >> Just because I have the ability to make a mold for injection molding a plastic body >> shell for a locomotive does not make it one tiny bit less scratch built than the one [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >Howard >NMRA lifer and sometimes Judge It doeesn't matter where you have the machine work done if you supply all the drawings. You cannot be forced to buy multi-thousand dollar tools to do a single scratchbuilding project. Designing a mold and then having it made by a machine shop does not invalidate the fact that you are the engineer and creator of the subject. I reiterate: Scratch-built does not mandate the use of primitive tools and methods. >>>Just because I have the ability to make a mold for injection molding a plastic body >>>shell for a locomotive does not make it one tiny bit less scratch built than the one [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > does not invalidate the fact that you are the engineer and creator of the subject. > I reiterate: Scratch-built does not mandate the use of primitive tools and methods. That's why I said it would make for some interesting discussions amoung the judges. I would be willing to give very-very close to, if not the, the maximum scratchbulding points for what you have desribed. The others areas would all depende on how well the other areas are executed. Howard Howard, I have judged over 2 dozen NMRA regional conventions(and will be judging this W/E again). What 'Froggy' claims is perfectly valid and he would get maximum 'scratch building' points for his effort. Now, the 'workmanship/craftmanship' points would depend on how well those etchings/castings look and fit together. The point system was altered several years ago, and IIRC, points were taken away from 'scratch built' and added to the later catagory. Also, making molds off of existing commercial castings is not considered 'scratchbuilt'. There is a 'balance' between building everything from scratch, and doing a good job in the actual construction. Jim Bernier > >>>Just because I have the ability to make a mold for injection molding a plastic body > >>>shell for a locomotive does not make it one tiny bit less scratch built than the one [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Howard > Had I not has the tools I would have had the items made by > someone who did. Never the less, I defy anyone to say, and > prove, that is not scratchbuilding. Using the NMRA definition ("...the builder alone has accomplished all of the necessary layout and fabrication..."), it would not qualify if you had the items made by someone else. It would not be done by "the builder alone." Mark, If you did the actual layout/drawings that were the source of the code that drives the CNC milling machine - You are the creator. If you wrote a song, published it, and it was performed by another artist - You still get credit for the song(and a piece of money for each CD). Jim Bernier > > Had I not has the tools I would have had the items made by > > someone who did. Never the less, I defy anyone to say, and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > necessary layout and fabrication..."), it would not qualify if you had the > items made by someone else. It would not be done by "the builder alone." >What happens if I get a company to make brass etching from my drawings. I then build the kit I have designed. Have I scratch built or kit built? I have a friend that built a passenger car. Not only did he do the drawings but he also did the etching. All things being equal he would/should get more points than you in a NMRA contest. I made the masters for a contest car that was then made into a kit by a company. I received scratch built points. >> What happens if I get a company to make brass etching from my >> drawings. I [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the drawings but he also did the etching. All things being equal he > would/should get more points than you in a NMRA contest. Of course your friend would get more points for his entry in an NMRA contest than Terry would. This is because: A: Terry would never enter a NMRA contest in the first place, as he seems to regard that organisation in the same light as evangelists do the Anti-Christ, and: B: Terry is not a very good modeller. > B: Terry is not a very good modeller. This discussion is starting to sound like a bunch of second-graders in a playground. >This discussion is starting to sound like a bunch of second-graders in a >playground. I sense yet another thread (or portion thereof) is about to devolve to a pissing match. Jay Back in action once again >>This discussion is starting to sound like a bunch of second-graders in a >>playground. > > I sense yet another thread (or portion thereof) is about to devolve to a > pissing match. Not from me. I found this an interesting conversation. Howard >Not from me. I found this an interesting conversation. No, I was thinking of two particular individuals. We'll see if it materializes or not. Hopefully not. Jay Back in action once again >>Not from me. I found this an interesting conversation. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Jay >Back in action once again Probably not Jay. The thread seems to have died out. Jay Cunington wrote: "I sense yet another thread (or portion thereof) is about to devolve to a pissing match." That's what we do best. Eric >Jay Cunington wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Eric I don't think so. This one seems to have died a natural death. Captain Handbrake Captain wrote: > I don't think so. This one seems to have died a natural death. Not necessarily. Some people are slow........to reply. > Captain wrote: > > > I don't think so. This one seems to have died a natural death. > > Not necessarily. Some people are slow........to reply. Like you sock puppet. Slow, yep, I guess that why you and the broomstick bitch don't have kids. Probably best though, consdiering your dark desires. Marty Hall > >Jay Cunington wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > > Captain Handbrake Have faith, Captain, Mork will reply, it just takes him longer to come up with his witty replies. Sometimes I think he has to go into work and ask his supervisor how to reply, but all the boss says is take that broom and get to the loo.. SignatureWill N Scale - Credit Valley Railway www.muskokacomputes.com/CVR_Home.htm > Have faith, Captain, Mork will reply, it just takes him longer to > come up with his witty replies. Why, thank you, moose rooter. Perhaps one day you will come up with a witty reply as well. > Sometimes I think he has to go into work and ask his supervisor how > to reply, but all the boss says is take that broom and get to the > loo.. Two things to note, moose rooter. 1. I <am> the supervisor. 2. "Loo" is a term used more in the UK. In Australia we favour terms such as "dunny", or "shithouse". Coming from Canadia(TM), I suppose you're only familiar with "tree" or "hole in the ground". > > Have faith, Captain, Mork will reply, it just takes him longer to > > come up with his witty replies. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > such as "dunny", or "shithouse". Coming from Canadia(TM), I suppose > you're only familiar with "tree" or "hole in the ground". Remember the dunny Will. That is where Mork does his best work. Drilled peep holes now doubt so he can watch the little ones and w.nk off. Then grab his broom and go running home to relate how wonderful it was to the bitch. Marty Hall > >> What happens if I get a company to make brass etching from my > >> drawings. I [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Of course your friend would get more points for his entry in an NMRA > contest than Terry would. This is because: Mark the expert at lies. The out of context text above is not referring to Terry Flynn. A juvenile response from Mark. > A: Terry would never enter a NMRA contest in the first place, as he > seems to regard that organisation in the same light as evangelists do > the Anti-Christ, and: > B: Terry is not a very good modeller. The opinion of a foul mouthed liar who refuses to give any details of his own HO model railway. My standard of modelling is so bad the trophies at home have printed on then 'best model railway' and 'most popular model railway' from when I was part of a team exhibiting an Australian layout called Bylong. Mark the expert makes claims he has exhibited 3 layouts, but refuses to name the layouts, I wonder why. SignatureTerry Flynn For HO scale track standards go to http://angelfire.com/clone/rail/index.html also includes details of HO wagon weight and locomotive tractive effort estimates > > >> What happens if I get a company to make brass etching from my > > >> drawings. I [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > layout called Bylong. Mark the expert makes claims he has > exhibited 3 layouts, but refuses to name the layouts, I wonder why. Oh I don't wonder, we all know that Mork has a deviant dark side, an interest in brooms and bitches and wee ones. He has never shown anything to anybody except his little thingy. However, we certainly know he is foul mouthed, probably has bad breath to boot. But then, he wants us to believe he is a supervisor of his work. HA HA. OK Mork, so you supervise the dunny. That's all right, everyone has a station in life. Just fill up those peep holes. Marty Hall > >> What happens if I get a company to make brass etching from my > >> drawings. I [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > B: Terry is not a very good modeller. Mork you are a judgemental turd along with being a molester. Marty Hall > What happens if I get a company to make brass etching from my > drawings. I then build the kit I have designed. You get some ugly-looking atrocity built by some ugly-looking atrocity. > > What happens if I get a company to make brass etching from my > > drawings. I then build the kit I have designed. > > You get some ugly-looking atrocity built by some ugly-looking atrocity. You can see how bad a model built from the etched kit from my drawings is by going to http://www.cia.com.au/bullack/LF.html 2nd photo, steel S wagon behind the locomotive. and another shot at http://www.cia.com.au/bullack/Locos.html . Of course Mark the expert wont tell us about his layout or etched kit experience. SignatureTerry Flynn For HO scale track standards go to http://angelfire.com/clone/rail/index.html also includes details of HO wagon weight and locomotive tractive effort estimates -- Terry Flynn For HO scale track standards go to http://angelfire.com/clone/rail/index.html also includes details of HO wagon weight and locomotive tractive effort estimates > Of course Mark the expert wont tell us about his layout or etched kit > experience. Wrong. Have a look at the new Waratah Model Railway Company 7mm scale composite-body S wagon kit. It is a mixed-media kit, mainly injection moulded with details in etched, cast and machined brass, and white metal. Talk to Dave Morris, and ask him who designed the kit... Nah, I'll spare Dave the experience of having to speak to you - I designed it. And it looks better than your effort, I must say. > > Of course Mark the expert wont tell us about his layout or etched kit > > experience. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Nah, I'll spare Dave the experience of having to speak to you - I > designed it. And it looks better than your effort, I must say. That, ole molester, would be a matter of opinion. Heck, we all know you never designed a thing in your life. Low lifes like yourself are not capable of such work Marty Hall > > Of course Mark the expert wont tell us about his layout or etched kit > > experience. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Nah, I'll spare Dave the experience of having to speak to you - I > designed it. And it looks better than your effort, I must say. Actually, I must repent and confess here, I never really designed this item. I just wish I had. My model work is improving but is still lacking in the fine detail that I so envy others of who can accomplish that level of craftmanship. You work looks really good and I must admit I am jealous. Hopefully, someday I will be able to do work up to that level of quality. Until then I will continue to try and increase my skills in this area and the dunny. > Actually, I must repent and confess here, I never really designed > this item. I just wish I had. My model work is improving but is still [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > work up to that level of quality. Until then I will continue to try > and increase my skills in this area and the dunny. Nice try, SirSpank, but I'd hate to think you were wasting valuable time pretending to be me, when you could be flogging wifey's pasty white flabby arse, instead. Just out of curiosity, since you spend so much time pretending to be other people, do you actually have any real identity of your own? Or are you simply a cipher? One more thing, you sick, sad old dag - if you're going to pretend to be me, DO TRY to emulate my writing style more convincingly... > > Actually, I must repent and confess here, I never really designed > > this item. I just wish I had. My model work is improving but is still [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > One more thing, you sick, sad old dag - if you're going to pretend to be > me, DO TRY to emulate my writing style more convincingly... I don't know why I keep picking on poor old Jermarty. He really hasn't done anything to me. I must stay busy posting elsewhere on the net. >>One more thing, you sick, sad old dag - if you're going to pretend to be >>me, DO TRY to emulate my writing style more convincingly... > > I don't know why I keep picking on poor old Jermarty. Because you're a mongrel who should be put down. > >>One more thing, you sick, sad old dag - if you're going to pretend to be > >>me, DO TRY to emulate my writing style more convincingly... > > > > I don't know why I keep picking on poor old Jermarty. > > Because you're a mongrel who should be put down. I keep trying to put this w.nker down but he won't go away. Come on you cocksucking Yanks, get of your dead arses and let this w.nker know what a prick he is. > > > Of course Mark the expert wont tell us about his layout or etched kit > > > experience. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > to that level of quality. Until then I will continue to try and > increase my skills in this area and the dunny. Two honest statements from Mark, what is happening today? Is there a full moon in Australia or is he finally realizing he should be honest, at least with himself. SignatureWill N Scale - Credit Valley Railway www.muskokacomputes.com/CVR_Home.htm wrote: > Two honest statements from Mark, what is happening today? Is there a full > moon in Australia or is he finally realizing he should be honest, at least > with himself. No, just the Okie pervert, Jerry/Marty/Sir Spanky/bogus Mark - the creature of a thousand names and a thousand and one dull and perverse vices. SignatureSteve Caple > wrote: > > Two honest statements from Mark, what is happening today? Is there a full [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > - the creature of a thousand names and a thousand and one > dull and perverse vices. I wonder if your name will be showing up in perverse places. Marty Hall > I wonder if your name will be showing up in perverse places. If it does, your ISP and State AG will hear about it. SignatureSteve Caple > wrote: > > Two honest statements from Mark, what is happening today? Is there a full [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > - the creature of a thousand names and a thousand and one > dull and perverse vices. Thanks Steve, I need the support of at least one fucktard Yank against this pervert. > > Of course Mark the expert wont tell us about his layout or etched kit > > experience. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Nah, I'll spare Dave the experience of having to speak to you - I > designed it. And it looks better than your effort, I must say. Which bits did you actually design expert? If you did all the design, why is it a Waratah Model Company product? More of your exaggerations. SignatureTerry Flynn For HO scale track standards go to http://angelfire.com/clone/rail/index.html also includes details of HO wagon weight and locomotive tractive effort estimates >> Wrong. Have a look at the new Waratah Model Railway Company 7mm >> scale composite-body S wagon kit. It is a mixed-media kit, mainly >> injection moulded with details in etched, cast and machined brass, >> and white metal. Talk to Dave Morris, and ask him who designed the >> kit... > Which bits did you actually design expert? I designed the injection moulded parts of the kit, comprising the body, the underframe and some of the detail parts. I'll also have a hand in some of the other Waratah products to be released. > If you did all the design, why is it a Waratah Model Company product? Derr! I did the design because Dave asked me to. When he purchased the business he needed someone who was a skilled draftsman, and my name came up. > More of your exaggerations. It's no exaggeration at all. You can SO VERY EASILY verify my statement, all it takes is a phone call or an email to Dave. His contact details are in recent issues of AMRM. But no doubt, you'll offer some lame excuse as to why you can't do that, so as to avoid being proven wrong, yet again. > >> Wrong. Have a look at the new Waratah Model Railway Company 7mm > >> scale composite-body S wagon kit. It is a mixed-media kit, mainly [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > lame excuse as to why you can't do that, so as to avoid being proven > wrong, yet again. In due course I will find out how much of this kit you actually designed, I doubt you are expert at tool design. The engineer at the firm is who actually designs the injection moulded parts. You probably have just supplied scaled drawings of the prototype. Considering the simple nature of the wagon, the existing published drawings in AMRM and scale, nothing to difficult to work out. I will get back as to how good the kit is when it is available. So far there is no website, no retail outlet, no add in ARMA for this model. Not the easiest model to find. As for etched kits, the subject relating to scratchbuilding, the drawing is the total design of the kit. SignatureTerry Flynn For HO scale track standards go to http://angelfire.com/clone/rail/index.html also includes details of HO wagon weight and locomotive tractive effort estimates > >> Wrong. Have a look at the new Waratah Model Railway Company 7mm > >> scale composite-body S wagon kit. It is a mixed-media kit, mainly [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > lame excuse as to why you can't do that, so as to avoid being proven > wrong, yet again. In due course I will find out how much of this kit you actually designed, I doubt you are expert at tool design. The engineer at the firm is who actually designs the injection moulded parts. You probably have just supplied scaled drawings of the prototype. Considering the simple nature of the wagon, the existing published drawings in AMRM and scale, nothing to difficult to work out. I will get back as to how good the kit is when it is availabe. So far there is no website, no retail outlet, no add in ARMA for this model. As for etched kits, the subject relating to scratchbuilding, the drawing is the total design of the kit. SignatureTerry Flynn For HO scale track standards go to http://angelfire.com/clone/rail/index.html also includes details of HO wagon weight and locomotive tractive effort estimates > > What happens if I get a company to make brass etching from my > > drawings. I then build the kit I have designed. > > You get some ugly-looking atrocity built by some ugly-looking atrocity. In your case, in would resemble a brass broomstick for the bitch. Marty Hall rutan3@nac.net (Dave Rutan), In a message on 5 May 2004 10:42:07 -0700, wrote : DR> Ben, DR> DR> In my opinion, scratchbuilding can be defined as building anything DR> that isn't a pre-made kit. Right. There are 'extremists'/'purests' around though. I 'scratch built' a bridge. I did use pre-made plastic structural shapes. I am sure there are modlers out there who would insist on making the structural shapes themselves from scratch. DR> DR> Dave DR> -- DR> From: Benjamin Barby (bmbarby@sympatico.ca) DR> Subject: Model Railroad Philosophy: What constitutes Scratch DR> Building? DR> Newsgroups: rec.models.railroad DR> Date: 1999/03/10 DR> DR> DR> I was just wondering how 'scratch' something had to be for it to be DR> scratch DR> built. DR> DR> I wanted to scratch build a car, so I went and bought some nice metal DR> trucks DR> and wheelsets for it, but someone told me that it wasn't scratch build DR> because I purchased parts. So I went to make my own; I got some metal DR> stock DR> and just as I was about half way through, someone told me it wasn't DR> scratch DR> because someone had manufactured the metal. So I went out and got DR> some ore DR> and smelted my own metal, cast it in to ingots, & rolled it down into DR> stock DR> and sheets I could use. OK so far. (There was some grumbling though, DR> because I hadn't made my own lathe) DR> DR> Then I went out and purchased some scribed wood to use on the car DR> itself. DR> Welll, you can't do that, it's purchased; someone else did the work; DR> so I DR> went and bought plain stock and scribed it myself. Not good enought. DR> So I DR> went and purchased a 2x4... Same thing. So off I went to the forest, DR> and DR> chopped down my own tree, dragged it home and started to dress the DR> wood, DR> when someone informed me that it didn't count, because someone else DR> had DR> grown the tree. So I took a seed, went outside, planted it..... DR> DR> Years later I was informed that my efforts were in vain because even DR> though DR> I had put the seed in the ground, someone else had created the seed. DR> Not DR> only that, but it wasn't me who personally made the seed grow, it was DR> God, DR> so it didn't count any way..... DR> DR> So I'm wondering, how scratch does something have to be before it's DR> scratch DR> built? DR> DR> Benjamin ;-) DR> DR> I've got waaaay too much time on my hands! :-) DR> DR> -- DR> Benjamin Barby DR> DR> bmbarby@bbqsympatico.ca DR> DR> Please eat the tasty Barby-Q provided in the e-mail address! That way DR> I DR> don't have to eat the spam later! :-) DR> \/ Robert Heller ||InterNet: heller@cs.umass.edu http://vis-www.cs.umass.edu/~heller || heller@deepsoft.com http://www.deepsoft.com /\FidoNet: 1:321/153 > rutan3@nac.net (Dave Rutan), > In a message on 5 May 2004 10:42:07 -0700, wrote : [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > are modlers out there who would insist on making the structural shapes > themselves from scratch. The NMRA allows structural shapes as raw material. Building them yourself may get you more points. Howard NMRA Lifer and Contest Judge > rutan3@nac.net (Dave Rutan), > In a message on 5 May 2004 10:42:07 -0700, wrote : [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > are modlers out there who would insist on making the structural shapes > themselves from scratch. More power to them. I keep getting told that almost nobody is building anything from scratch anymore. Kitbashing sounds like it's still pretty healthy though. Dave SignatureThe First Railroad in Sussex County New Jersey http://DLW-SussexBranch.com Monomania can be a good thing I scratch build about 50% of my buildings useing only drawings from MR and RMC. I Kitbash about 25% of the Buildings i have and the other 25% is is from kits and alot of them get some new stuff. I love to buy pre made Wood kits off Ebay and at train shows that are less than ...... well shitey looking to say the lest and re do them into somthing nice. Paul > rutan3@nac.net (Dave Rutan), > In a message on 5 May 2004 10:42:07 -0700, wrote : [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > are modlers out there who would insist on making the structural shapes > themselves from scratch. More power to them. I keep getting told that almost nobody is building anything from scratch anymore. Kitbashing sounds like it's still pretty healthy though. Dave SignatureThe First Railroad in Sussex County New Jersey http://DLW-SussexBranch.com Monomania can be a good thing > rutan3@nac.net (Dave Rutan), > In a message on 5 May 2004 10:42:07 -0700, wrote : [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > are modlers out there who would insist on making the structural shapes > themselves from scratch. More power to them. I keep getting told that almost nobody is building anything from scratch anymore. Kitbashing sounds like it's still pretty healthy though. Dave SignatureThe First Railroad in Sussex County New Jersey http://DLW-SussexBranch.com Monomania can be a good thing > Ben, > > In my opinion, scratchbuilding can be defined as building anything > that isn't a pre-made kit. I have to ask the obvious. Where does one find the plans for a Scratch, so one may build one? Steve Sniggering, NSW, Aust > > Ben, > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I have to ask the obvious. Where does one find the plans for a Scratch, so > one may build one? Ask the dog - he always has plans to scratch! "Steve Magee" <sjmagee@yahoo.com>, In a message on Thu, 6 May 2004 18:36:18 +1000, wrote : "M> > Ben, "M> > "M> > In my opinion, scratchbuilding can be defined as building anything "M> > that isn't a pre-made kit. "M> > "M> I have to ask the obvious. Where does one find the plans for a Scratch, so "M> one may build one? Various places. I excerpted some of the plans for my bridge from the Bridge and Trestle book from Kalmbach, for example. "M> "M> Steve "M> Sniggering, NSW, Aust "M> "M> "M> \/ Robert Heller ||InterNet: heller@cs.umass.edu http://vis-www.cs.umass.edu/~heller || heller@deepsoft.com http://www.deepsoft.com /\FidoNet: 1:321/153 > > Ben, > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Steve > Sniggering, NSW, Aust Well, some model magazines occasionally publish such drawings, usually of prototype buildings that either still do or once existed. Myself, I had to create my own: http://dlw-sussexbranch.com/Modeling/drawings.html I'm now redrawing these (the above) in AutoCAD so as to be able to properly scale them. Dave |
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