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Model Forum / General / Railroads / June 2004Ditch Lights
Hi all, I'm new to US models (I live in the UK) & I know this is probably a daft question, but what are ditchlights? Cheers, Ray "Ray" <photoloc@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in news:C2Eyc.87243$wd7.17771 @front-1.news.blueyonder.co.uk: > Hi all, > I'm new to US models (I live in the UK) & I know this is probably a daft > question, but what are ditchlights? > Cheers, > Ray A pair lights, one left, one right, usually low on the front of the engine to illimuniate the "ditches" on either side of the roadbed (and further increase visibility). For a cute little animated example, see: http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=-1&TOPIC_ID=16369 &REPLY_ID=142596 > "Ray" <photoloc@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in news:C2Eyc.87243$wd7.17771 > @front-1.news.blueyonder.co.uk: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=-1&TOPIC_ID=16369 > &REPLY_ID=142596 Ok, now a follow-up question: Why does the driver need to see what is in the ditches? Surely the train follows the rails, and anything spotted in the ditches is too close for the driver to have time to avoid anyway? Regards, Greg.P. >> A pair lights, one left, one right, usually low on the front of the >> engine to illimuniate the "ditches" on either side of the roadbed >> (and further increase visibility). For a cute little animated >> example, see: > Ok, now a follow-up question: Why does the driver need to see what is > in the ditches? Surely the train follows the rails, and anything > spotted in the ditches is too close for the driver to have time to > avoid anyway? I think that the intention is to increase the visibility <OF> the train to those at trackside, and particularly to motorists on level crossings. At least, that was the rationale given for fitting them to locos and MU stock her in NSW. > >> A pair lights, one left, one right, usually low on the front of the > >> engine to illimuniate the "ditches" on either side of the roadbed [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > At least, that was the rationale given for fitting them to locos and MU > stock her in NSW. Yes, that makes some sense! > Hi all, > I'm new to US models (I live in the UK) & I know this is probably a daft > question, but what are ditchlights? First used in Canada, and then copied by the States. -- Cheers Roger T. Home of the Great Eastern Railway http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/ Thanks for the replies, Cheers, Ray > > Hi all, > > I'm new to US models (I live in the UK) & I know this is probably a daft [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Home of the Great Eastern Railway > http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/ > First used in Canada, and then copied by the States. Not copied, despite being called ditchlights in USA by railfans and some railroaders the lights in USA are Auxiliary headlight, and are aimed differed than ditch lights. A true ditch light the left light shines cross eyed in right ditch and right light shines in left ditch see : http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=63014 on trains in USA the lights shine straight ahead with a spread of about 15 degrees max. see: http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=65082 for rules: TITLE 49--TRANSPORTATION CHAPTER II--FEDERAL RAILROAD ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION PART 229--RAILROAD LOCOMOTIVE SAFETY STANDARDS--Table of Contents Subpart C--Safety Requirements Sec. 229.125 Headlights and auxiliary lights. (a) Each lead locomotive used in road service shall have a headlight that produces at least 200,000 candela. If a locomotive or locomotive consist in road service is regularly required to run backward for any portion of its trip other than to pick up a detached portion of its train or to make terminal movements, it shall also have on its rear a headlight that produces at least 200,000 candela. Each headlight shall be arranged to illuminate a person at least 800 feet ahead and in front of the headlight. (b) Each locomotive or locomotive consist used in yard service shall have two headlights, one located on the front of the locomotive or locomotive consist and one on its rear. Each headlight shall produce at least 60,000 candela and shall be arranged to illuminate a person at least 300 feet ahead and in front of the headlight. (c) Headlights shall be provided with a device to dim the light. (d) Effective December 31, 1997, each lead locomotive operated at a speed greater than 20 miles per hour over one or more public highway- rail crossings shall be equipped with operative auxiliary lights, in addition to the headlight required by paragraph (a) or (b) of this section. A locomotive equipped on March 6, 1996 with auxiliary lights in conformance with Sec. 229.133 shall be deemed to conform to this section until March 6, 2000. All locomotives in compliance with Sec. 229.133(c) shall be deemed [[Page 307]] to conform to this section. Auxiliary lights shall be composed as follows: (1) Two white auxiliary lights shall be placed at the front of the locomotive to form a triangle with the headlight. (i) The auxiliary lights shall be at least 36 inches above the top of the rail, except on MU locomotives and control cab locomotives where such placement would compromise the integrity of the car body or be otherwise impractical. Auxiliary lights on such MU locomotives and control cab locomotives shall be at least 24 inches above the top of the rail. (ii) The auxiliary lights shall be spaced at least 36 inches apart if the vertical distance from the headlight to the horizontal axis of the auxiliary lights is 60 inches or more. (iii) The auxiliary lights shall be spaced at least 60 inches apart if the vertical distance from the headlight to the horizontal axis of the auxiliary lights is less than 60 inches. (2) Each auxiliary light shall produce at least 200,000 candela. (3) The auxiliary lights shall be focused horizontally within 15 degrees of the longitudinal centerline of the locomotive. (e) Auxiliary lights required by paragraph (d) of this section may be arranged (1) to burn steadily or (2) flash on approach to a crossing. If the auxiliary lights are arranged to flash; (i) they shall flash alternately at a rate of at least 40 flashes per minute and at most 180 flashes per minute, (ii) the railroad's operating rules shall set a standard procedure for use of flashing lights at public highway-rail grade crossings, and (iii) the flashing feature may be activated automatically, but shall be capable of manual activation and deactivation by the locomotive engineer. (f) Auxiliary lights required by paragraph (d) of this section shall be continuously illuminated immediately prior to and during movement of the locomotive, except as provided by railroad operating rules, timetable or special instructions, unless such exception is disapproved by FRA. A railroad may except use of auxiliary lights at a specific public highway-rail grade crossing by designating that exception in the railroad's operating rules, timetable, or a special order. Any exception from use of auxiliary lights at a specific public grade crossing can be disapproved for a stated cause by FRA's Associate Administrator for Safety or any one of FRA's Regional Administrators, after investigation by FRA and opportunity for response from the railroad. (g) Movement of locomotives with defective auxiliary lights. (1) A lead locomotive with only one failed auxiliary light must be repaired or switched to a trailing position before departure from the place where an initial terminal inspection is required for that train. (2) A locomotive with only one auxiliary light that has failed after departure from an initial terminal, must be repaired not later than the next calendar inspection required by Sec. 229.21. (3) A lead locomotive with two failed auxiliary lights may only proceed to the next place where repairs can be made. This movement must be consistent with Sec. 229.9. (h) Any locomotive subject to Part 229, that was built before December 31, 1948, and that is not used regularly in commuter or intercity passenger service, shall be considered historic equipment and excepted from the requirements of paragraphs (d) through (h) of this section. [45 FR 21109, Mar. 31, 1980, as amended at 61 FR 8887, Mar. 6, 1996] Salvè > > First used in Canada, and then copied by the States. > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > see: http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=65082 > for rules: rather interesting, but it does beg the question that if someone cant see a75 tonne plus locomotive with ordinairy headlights how is the addition of a "ditch light" going to make any difference to their blindness? British loco's have no headlights worth the name Swedish have rather high power ones but even in Sweden with its thousands of unguarded crossings collissions are rare so what are the real benefits of these ,apparently, silly lights? Beowulf > so what are the real benefits of these ,apparently, silly lights? Avoiding dusk and nighttime collisions. > > so what are the real benefits of these ,apparently, silly lights? > > Avoiding dusk and nighttime collisions. As if a train could stop to avoid anything in the lights....  SignatureWill N Scale - Credit Valley Railway www.muskokacomputes.com/CVR_Home.htm > > > so what are the real benefits of these ,apparently, silly lights? > > > > Avoiding dusk and nighttime collisions. > > As if a train could stop to avoid anything in the lights.... Or swerve, for that matter... > > As if a train could stop to avoid anything in the lights.... > > Or swerve, for that matter... If you're ugly enough, I suppose... > > > As if a train could stop to avoid anything in the lights.... > > > > Or swerve, for that matter... > > If you're ugly enough, I suppose... Well, I suppose you would be after being run over by a train >> > > As if a train could stop to avoid anything in the lights.... >> > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >Well, I suppose you would be after being run over by a train Headlights on a locomotive are only useful to those whose actions are influenced by the train. They are of no use to the train crew about 99.99% of the time. Being able to see what you are about to hit is merely an interesting intellectual diversion. I can recall two incidents when I was able to stop the train before hitting something on the tracks. One was an auto carrier that had become stuck on a grade crossing. There was a long uphill tangent approaching the crossing. The track department had recently installed a new turnout about 500 yards from the crossing and had a 35MPH speed restriction in place for a few days. That speed restriction probably saved the driver's butt (figuratively) and saved the truck for sure. The other was about 0200 ( that's 2 AM for the Luddites among us ) when I met an automobile going south on the same track upon which I was going north < ! > He did not have even so much as a hint of any kind of lights burning. I had a pair of Alco RS-3s and a cut of about twenty cars, and was galloping along at the mind-numbing speed of 40 MPH. I but the air brakes into emergency and got stopped (barely) before I hit the car. HOWEVER........ The driver of the car did not stop and plowed into us head-on at the breakneck speed of about 15MPH. Now, if you don't think that's fast, try driving on the tracks at any less speed and see what you think. It is a good trick for a beefed-up jeep, but this guy was driving a plain-Jane Buick (?) sedan. The car was probably already trashed before he hit us, it just hadn't come apart yet. Anyway, he poured himself out of the car and promised to pay for any damages to the locomotive if we would just not call the police. HA! Fat chance o'that! It was good that no one chose to light a cigarette right then, because the auto driver had so much alcohol on his breath that the place would surely have looked like Hiroshima if anyone had. It took over two hours for a wrecker to extract the auto from the front pilot of the RS-3 with cables and torches and drag it back to a place where he could get it up onto the truck. The engine had been ripped from its mounts and had ruptured the fuel line in the process such that gasoline was all over the place. There was a fire truck standing by with a full compliment of firemen equipment to extinguish any fire that might result from the torching operations. Fortunately, all went well and there were no problems. The firemen went home, the car went to the scrap yard, the driver became the guest of the county for a while and we took the engines back to the yard for the car department to inspect. Ho-hum........all in a day's work. Captain Handbrake >Headlights on a locomotive are only useful to those whose actions are influenced by >the train. They are of no use to the train crew about 99.99% of the time. >Being able to see what you are about to hit is merely an interesting intellectual >diversion. Gives you a chance to decide whether to duck or bail, depending on the size and contents of the illuminated object... Jeff Sc. Karo Syrup, Ga. Don't bother to reply via email...I've been JoeJobbed. >>Headlights on a locomotive are only useful to those whose actions are influenced by >>the train. They are of no use to the train crew about 99.99% of the time. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Gives you a chance to decide whether to duck or bail, depending on the >size and contents of the illuminated object... Once, when I was working as a brakeman on the Piedmont Division we hit a chicken offal truck at Gainesville. That was really disgusting. No one was hurt, but the mess was SO beyond description. The truck driver denied trying to beat the train to the crossing, but when the State Troopers got there he spilled his guts. Yeah. Another time, Jonah here, wheedled a cab ride on the Crescent northbound out of New Orleans. Sumbitch if we didn't whack a milk truck as we were accelerating out of Slidell. I think that all kinds of crap gets hit by trains every day, you just don't hear about it unless it's a school bus or a van full of Nuns or something like that. I was never on a job that hit a school bus, but another crew did run over one in Arragon and kill a bunch of kids while I was bid in on a yard job in Atlanta. One day I was braking for an engineer we all called "Duck" when we missed a school bus in Jackson that tried to beat the train to the crossing. This time she made it, but I had to go out and see if there was any yellow paint on the front of the engine. One more coat and we'da hit her fer sher. Captain Handbrake > >>Headlights on a locomotive are only useful to those whose actions are influenced by > >>the train. They are of no use to the train crew about 99.99% of the time. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Captain Handbrake Last summer I was talking to an engineer on a CSX coal haul in Columbia, SC. Part of the training now states, "When you hit a vehicle on the tracks..." do the following... I thought it was interesting that the wording was "when" not "if". Bob SignatureThe goal of driving is to miss the maximum possible number of objects. > > >>Headlights on a locomotive are only useful to those whose actions are influenced by > > >>the train. They are of no use to the train crew about 99.99% of the time. [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > -- > The goal of driving is to miss the maximum possible number of objects. I recall an "Operation Lifesaver" presentation that stated that most career engineers will have several grade crossing accidents in their working years. As many of these result in fatalities, that's a sobering thought! It's a substantial psychological problem engineers must face. Dan Mitchell ========== >I recall an "Operation Lifesaver" presentation that stated that most >career engineers will have several grade crossing accidents in their [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Dan Mitchell >========== It depends. Some are bothered by it some are not. That's just the way people are. Captain Handbrake Captain, Handbrake@Atlantic, Coast, Line.com wrote: > >I recall an "Operation Lifesaver" presentation that stated that most > >career engineers will have several grade crossing accidents in their [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > > Captain Handbrake They still have to face it. The circumstances of the accidents vary, and different personalities handle it in different ways. Dan Mitchell ========== > I recall an "Operation Lifesaver" presentation that stated that most > career engineers will have several grade crossing accidents in their > working years. My wife is an OLI presenter... she says they were never given that fact. Given the statistics on 37,000 engineers and 3,000 annual grade crossing accidents, it's likely for 'career' engineers... but do most stay in that job position for that long of time? My wife says their training emphasised that a big problem are pedestrian/trespasser incidents. > As many of these result in fatalities, that's a sobering > thought! It's a substantial psychological problem engineers must face. According to FRA statistics for 2002, there were 356 grade crossing fatalities in 3,072 grade crossing collisions. In the same time frame there were 540 pedestrian/trespass fatalities. > > I recall an "Operation Lifesaver" presentation that stated that most > > career engineers will have several grade crossing accidents in their [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > In the same time frame there were 540 pedestrian/trespass fatalities. Well, using your figures, about 8% (3/37) of engineers have a grade crossing accident every year. That is, any average engineer will have such an accident every 12 years. That is, two or three in lifetime career. This supports my original statement. 11% of these are fatalities, so any given engineer, in line of duty, has about one chance in four of killing someone in such an accident. How many of the general population have a job with that great a likelihood? Surley there are other jobs with similar risks, but it's still a significant occupational hazard/responsibility. And also true that there is little the engineer can do about it (assuming they are not somehow a party to the accident, Rule-G, etc.). It's not normally their fault, but some have a lot of trouble accepting that after wiping someone out. Dan Mitchell ========== >>>> As if a train could stop to avoid anything in the lights.... >>> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> > Well, I suppose you would be after being run over by a train No, they're not ugly, they just look like a carpet bag full of mince. > > If you're ugly enough, I suppose... > > > Well, I suppose you would be after being run over by a train I was refering to the old adage, 'He's so ugly he could make a freightrain take a dirt road' Drew > > > so what are the real benefits of these ,apparently, silly lights? > > > > Avoiding dusk and nighttime collisions. > > As if a train could stop to avoid anything in the lights.... I read a report of an accident somewhere in England - the reporter claimed the train driver didn't even attempt to swerve to avoid the car stalled on the crossing! Perhaps if he'd had ditch lights??? >>> so what are the real benefits of these ,apparently, silly lights? >> >> Avoiding dusk and nighttime collisions. > > As if a train could stop to avoid anything in the lights.... Are you serious? It helps avoid disk and nighttime collisions by making the train more visible to motorists. "Mark Mathu" > >>> so what are the real benefits of these ,apparently, silly lights? > >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > It helps avoid disk and nighttime collisions by making the train more visible > to motorists. "Disk"? Are people now throwing Frisbees (tm) at trains? -- Cheers Roger T. Home of the Great Eastern Railway http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/ >> It helps avoid disk and nighttime collisions by making the train more >> visible to motorists. > > "Disk"? Are people now throwing Frisbees (tm) at trains? Incidents involving unauthorized Frisbees on railroad property are rapidly spinning out of control. > Incidents involving unauthorized Frisbees on railroad property are rapidly > spinning out of control. Sounds like hula hoopla to me. SignatureSteve Caple > > Incidents involving unauthorized Frisbees on railroad property are rapidly > > spinning out of control. > > Sounds like hula hoopla to me. Don't try to put your own spin on the facts. > > > Incidents involving unauthorized Frisbees on railroad property are > rapidly [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Don't try to put your own spin on the facts. Ahm not wunna them spinkeisters they're always talkin' about. SignatureSteve Caple > > It helps avoid disk and nighttime collisions by making the train more > visible > > to motorists. > > "Disk"? Are people now throwing Frisbees (tm) at trains? It's a phenomenon only among cutting edge railfans. It's when the digital camera stops working and you throw that little 'disk' at the train, because you missed the one shot you've been waiting for all day. Signature__________________________________________________________________ This email scanned by Norton AntiVirus "I don't drive fast, I fly low" Drew Bunn Ainsley Specialized Transport bunn_a@hotmail.com > Salvè > > > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > rare so what are the real benefits of these ,apparently, silly lights? > Beowulf Management feels better about their trains rolling over blind idiots? Greg.P. > but it does beg the question that if someone cant see > a75 tonne plus locomotive with ordinairy headlights how is the addition of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > rare so what are the real benefits of these ,apparently, silly lights? > Beowulf American trains in general only had a single headlight with two bulbs. in Europe a triangle formed headlight has been used for years. With a single headlight it s hard to figure how far a train is from a crossing. with three lights one can figure distance a lot better. so two lights at bottom were added. Jaap > rather interesting, but it does beg the question that if someone cant > see a75 tonne plus locomotive with ordinairy headlights how is the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > unguarded crossings collissions are rare so what are the real > benefits of these ,apparently, silly lights? In the case of US locos, and many similar units on railways elswhere, the headlights are aimed and focused some considerable distance ahead of the loco. They are mounted either at the top of the short hood/nose, or on the top of the cab front. So to a motorist only a few feet from the ground, the normal headlights are not as highly visible as you might at first think. But I agree that no amount of lights will overcome the basic problem of motorists who drive around with their eyes shut, and their brains in neutral. At least with ditch lights you can see exactly what you're about to run over, which makes it easier to describe when you contact the signal box to report the collision. > > rather interesting, but it does beg the question that if someone cant > > see a75 tonne plus locomotive with ordinairy headlights how is the [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > about to run over, which makes it easier to describe when you contact > the signal box to report the collision. Has the addition of ditch lights increased or decreased the number of deer and moose hits? In general, lights freeze deer, ala poachers. John H. > Has the addition of ditch lights increased or decreased the number of deer > and moose hits? I don't think there's ever been a statistical study of that data. It's a bit simpler in Canada: > o > o o "I am a moving train" > o o (lower lights only) "I am a moving train with a busted headlight" or "I am a moving train whose engineer forgot to turn on the headlight" > o > o (diagonal) "I am a moving train with a ditch light busted" > o > o "I am a moving train with the other ditch light busted" :^) My understanding is ditch lights came into use in Canada becuase curvature in the Rockies keeps the headlight aimed away from the track ahead more often than not. In any event, they proved useful enough that they are a de facto standard on Canadian locomotives, but are not required. Rule 17.2 of the Canadian Rail Operating Rules does state that if present, ditch lights must be on, and are to be: - dimmed or extinguished when the headlight is dimmed or extinguished; - extinguished between crossings when facing traffic on adjacent roadways at night; - extinguished when switching. They may be used as substitute headlighs, subject in that case to rules for headlights. Alternating ditch lights are a rarity in Canada - VIA's new P42's have them, as does some leased power scattered hither and yon. salvé > > rather interesting, but it does beg the question that if someone cant > > see a75 tonne plus locomotive with ordinairy headlights how is the [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > about to run over, which makes it easier to describe when you contact > the signal box to report the collision. Well in the Uk the lights on a loco hadnt any function re forward illumination they were there as class lights etc hence during daylight they didnt actually need to be lit, as for the lights on swedish locos they are very powerful indeed and can blind motorists which is why they have a dipping (dim?) mechanism the same as a car has, the fact is a that a train travelling at 60mph (100kph) will take nearly a mile to stop longer for vacuum braked british steam trains even longer for unbraked goods trains (individual wagons have no travelling brakes only the loco and the guardsvan have brakes) I cant see that a train pulled by a massive loco with a stobe or flashing light or powerful headlight really needs any other illumination, now if its propelling the train I can see problems ! but so far only B dubya's explanation seems vaguely plausible, and even then I'm not convinced, for what its worth I was a train guard on BR and have worked on Northern Irelands railway (which was an adventure that Walt Disney couldnt film as no one would believe me.....) It seems to me that if the visibility of a loco is the purpose, ie to be able to see the loco better then lights shining vertically along the sides of the loco illuminating the actual bodywork are far superior to a couple of meager powered lights aimed downward from a yard above the rails. having seen the remains of what were once people who have been hit by trains I am not sure that any driver would want to be able to describe events... it reminds me of a guy I knew who was a codriver on a Deltic blatting along at close to 120mph when a suicide stepped out in front of the train, apparently the guys head sailed past the windscreen, "Thon girt bugger was smiling at me!" he used to say, for the USA citizens the first part translated means" that big bugger"....... not that he was especially big after impact.......... Beowulf |
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