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Constructing roads for an industrial park

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Mark2149@cox.net - 16 Mar 2006 03:17 GMT
I have a small group of industrial buildings in a switching layout. We
must construct  a road and parking lots to make the setup functional.
Walthers has just come out with a road building kit, but it is not
suitable for my circumstances. Their road is a 4 lane street and
apparently goes only straight. I searched for descriptions about
constructing your own road, but without success. Question: can you
suggest articles or other material that will give guidance to road
construction?

Thanks.
Frank A. Rosenbaum - 16 Mar 2006 04:13 GMT
Woodland Scenics has a road building system. It has three components; Paving
tape (walthers#) 785-1455 for $6.49, Smooth - it 785-1452 for $4.98per
quart, and Top Coat 785-1453 for asphalt or 785-1454 for concrete. Each is
$4.29 for 4 oz.

I have not used this, so . . . .

They also have a Road system kit for 12.98. # 785 952. It looks like a small
quantity of each product as well as the instructions for using it.

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Frank Rosenbaum

>I have a small group of industrial buildings in a switching layout. We
> must construct  a road and parking lots to make the setup functional.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Thanks.
kt0t - 16 Mar 2006 04:39 GMT
I used the Woodland Scenics system mentioned by Mr. Rosenbaum for roads
through town - it's a little 'fiddly' but came out OK. I would use it again.

Now all I have to do is find better center stripes (white) than the tape I
used... it's coming up.

73 de KT0T
Bob Schwartz
Modeling Waseca, MN in the '50s

> Woodland Scenics has a road building system. It has three components;
> Paving tape (walthers#) 785-1455 for $6.49, Smooth - it 785-1452 for
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>>
>> Thanks.
BillsRREmpire@gmail.com - 16 Mar 2006 04:56 GMT
Bob Schwartz wrote:
Now all I have to do is find better center stripes (white) than the
tape I
used... it's coming up.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I use artist's pencils to apply the stripes. Might not work on the WS
roads, though.

Bill
Bill's Railroad Empire
http://www.billsrailroad.net
kt0t - 16 Mar 2006 06:13 GMT
> Bob Schwartz wrote:
> Now all I have to do is find better center stripes (white) than the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Bill's Railroad Empire
> http://www.billsrailroad.net

Thanks Bill; I'll give them a try in a hidden spot & let you know.

Signature

73 de KT0T
Bob Schwartz
Modeling Waseca, MN in the '50s

Wolf Kirchmeir - 16 Mar 2006 05:03 GMT
> I used the Woodland Scenics system mentioned by Mr. Rosenbaum for roads
> through town - it's a little 'fiddly' but came out OK. I would use it again.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Bob Schwartz
> Modeling Waseca, MN in the '50s

Try a stencil cut out of card. Use spray paint, or a stencil brush
(short, stiff bristles.) I've seen very nice work done using this
method, but haven't tried it myself. With a stencil brush it's easy to
produce the variation in density that looks right.

HTH
kt0t - 16 Mar 2006 06:16 GMT
>> I used the Woodland Scenics system mentioned by Mr. Rosenbaum for roads
>> through town - it's a little 'fiddly' but came out OK. I would use it
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> HTH

Thank you Wolf! I have seen the painted ones - they do look good. I'd have
to use the stencil brush as my air compressor is busted.

Bob
Mark Mathu - 17 Mar 2006 10:44 GMT
> Try a stencil cut out of card. Use spray paint, or a stencil brush (short,
> stiff bristles.) I've seen very nice work done using this method, but
> haven't tried it myself. With a stencil brush it's easy to produce the
> variation in density that looks right.

Yeah, I've used that method. It worked for me very well on a straight roadway
section on a highway bridge I modeled.  I cut a continuous narrow strip out
of the center of a manila folder (I chose it because it was stiff enough to
stand up to handling, yet thin) and then used 3/4" masking tape* to mask off
stripes along the strip.  I sprayed antique white acrylic paint through the
mask *lightly* to make the stripes.

FYI: Prototype stripes are typically 4" wide with a 10' stripe / 30' space
pattern (15' / 25' pre- 1970s).
Wolf Kirchmeir - 17 Mar 2006 16:39 GMT
>> Try a stencil cut out of card. Use spray paint, or a stencil brush (short,
>> stiff bristles.) I've seen very nice work done using this method, but
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> FYI: Prototype stripes are typically 4" wide with a 10' stripe / 30' space
> pattern (15' / 25' pre- 1970s).

Not in Canada or USA. Shorter stripes, shorter gaps, about 6ft long with
a 6ft gap at a rough guess. (I'm sure somebody with hiway maintenance
experience will tell us the exact numbers.)
Brian Smith - 18 Mar 2006 00:30 GMT
> Not in Canada or USA. Shorter stripes, shorter gaps, about 6ft long with a
> 6ft gap at a rough guess. (I'm sure somebody with hiway maintenance
> experience will tell us the exact numbers.)

Ten foot long stripes with ten foot spaces between them.
Mark Mathu - 18 Mar 2006 16:31 GMT
>> FYI: Prototype stripes are typically 4" wide with a 10' stripe / 30' space
>> pattern (15' / 25' pre- 1970s).
>
> Not in Canada or USA. Shorter stripes, shorter gaps, about 6ft long with a
> 6ft gap at a rough guess. (I'm sure somebody with hiway maintenance
> experience will tell us the exact numbers.)

I should have specified: I was modeling a freeway overpass on my layout.  I
gave the prototype spacing to compare it against the selective compression
used on my model, which used gaps made from 3/4" masking tape (= 5.5 scale
feet in HO).

The typical spacings are spelled out in the Manual of Uniform Traffic Control
Devices.  I'm a civil engineer, and my co-workers who specialize in traffic
engineering treat the MUTCD as their "bible."

California's interpretation of the MUTCD is on-line at:
http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/traffops/signtech/mutcdsupp/pdf/CA-Chap3A.pdf
Refer to Detail 11 (p. 3A-3) in the MUTCD 2003 California Supplement...
stripes are 12' long, with 36' gaps between them for traffic speeds 45 mph or
greater.

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Mark Mathu
The Green Bay Route: http://www.greenbayroute.com/
"I started out with nothing and I still have most of it."

Mark Mathu - 25 Mar 2006 08:18 GMT
>> FYI: Prototype stripes are typically 4" wide with a 10' stripe / 30' space
>> pattern (15' / 25' pre- 1970s).
>
> Not in Canada or USA.

Anyone in Canada or the USA can hop on a highway and verify my statement.
Brian Smith - 25 Mar 2006 11:10 GMT
> Anyone in Canada or the USA can hop on a highway and verify my statement.

I already did (above), why did you post incorrect information?
Mark Mathu - 27 Mar 2006 00:58 GMT
>>> FYI: Prototype stripes are typically 4" wide with a 10' stripe / 30'
>>> space  pattern (15' / 25' pre- 1970s).
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> I already did (above), why did you post incorrect information?

Just look:
http://www.rockymountainroads.com/arizona200/az-202_eb_exit_010_02.jpg

Don't spend too much time telling yourself these stripes are 6' / 6'.
Joe Ellis - 27 Mar 2006 03:29 GMT
> >>> FYI: Prototype stripes are typically 4" wide with a 10' stripe / 30'
> >>> space  pattern (15' / 25' pre- 1970s).
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Don't spend too much time telling yourself these stripes are 6' / 6'.

Why don't you two quit pissing in each other's beer and go to the source:

http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/index.htm

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Evaluating all GUIs by the example of Windows is like evaluating all cars
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gvoigt@new.rr.com - 28 Mar 2006 20:11 GMT
Now you really went and did it!  You made sense of the whole situation.
Maybe they like the flavor of pissy beer.  Some people just don't
realize the world of information at their finger tips using the
internet.  Thanks for sharing the light with them.
Mark Mathu - 29 Mar 2006 04:37 GMT
> Now you really went and did it!  You made sense of the whole situation.
> Maybe they like the flavor of pissy beer.  Some people just don't
> realize the world of information at their finger tips using the
> internet.  Thanks for sharing the light with them.

Was your head up your a.s when the Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices
(MUTCD) was mentioned as a resource *eleven* days ago in this thread?
Brian Smith - 27 Mar 2006 11:36 GMT
> Just look:
> http://www.rockymountainroads.com/arizona200/az-202_eb_exit_010_02.jpg
>
> Don't spend too much time telling yourself these stripes are 6' / 6'.

What does that have to do with me stating the markings are ten feet long and
ten feet apart here?
Joe Ellis - 16 Mar 2006 06:24 GMT
> I used the Woodland Scenics system mentioned by Mr. Rosenbaum for roads
> through town - it's a little 'fiddly' but came out OK. I would use it again.
>
> Now all I have to do is find better center stripes (white) than the tape I
> used... it's coming up.

I use sheets of craft foam to make the roads, and gel pens (like they
use in scrapbooking to write on dark paper) to do the lines. See pics
here:

http://home.mindspring.com/~dayton_n-track/index.html

Select "Photo Album" in the left menu, then "Bend Track SIG". Scroll
down to the second section of the thumbnails - there are several
pictures of roads and parking lots there.

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Evaluating all GUIs by the example of Windows is like evaluating all cars
by the example of Yugos.

Steve Caple - 16 Mar 2006 05:24 GMT
> I have a small group of industrial buildings in a switching layout. We
> must construct  a road and parking lots to make the setup functional.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> suggest articles or other material that will give guidance to road
> construction?

Some folks use .060 or .080 styrene sheet;  you could cut up old (or not so
old?) political or real estate yard signs or such.  Draw the road outline,
cut it out, glue it down, paint and weather it.

Also see http://www.rrscenery.com/pavingtutorial.html

Signature

Steve

Gordon reeder - 17 Mar 2006 01:01 GMT
> I have a small group of industrial buildings in a switching layout. We
> must construct  a road and parking lots to make the setup functional.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Thanks.

I did a reasonably good job of paving a raod using drywall compound.
Arizona Rock & Mineral Co. - 17 Mar 2006 02:57 GMT
Have you considered the way I build streets, roads and driveways? Look at my
web-site for the tutorial on the subject. http://www.rrscenery.com

--
Phil Anderson
Up hill slow, down hill fast, tonnage first, safety last.

> > I have a small group of industrial buildings in a switching layout. We
> > must construct  a road and parking lots to make the setup functional.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> I did a reasonably good job of paving a raod using drywall compound.
Ken Day - 17 Mar 2006 02:57 GMT
>I have a small group of industrial buildings in a switching layout. We
>must construct  a road and parking lots to make the setup functional.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Thanks.

I always use molding plaster or plaster of paris. Makes a great
looking street , asphalt or concrete. For asphalt , I just mark where
I want the road to be and brush the plaster on with a small brush and
then use a putty knife to smooth it. Its so easy to feather the
plaster on the edges and you can easily put a small crown in the road
as the real ones have. Very seldom do you ever see a perfectly flat
and smooth highway. Even a newly poured one would still have a crown.

When doing concrete streets I glue or pin small strips of wood ,
usually 1/8" x 1/8" or smaller , to create a form along each side of
the road.I pour the plaster in and 'screed' it with a credit card or
some other similiar straight edge. Just like pouring concrete.
Concrete streets also have a crown . A slope of 1/8" per foot is
common practice on many roads. If you don't want to 'eyeball' it , you
can cut a small curve in the straight edge that you screed it with to
get the crown in the center , or lay a wood strip slightly thicker
than those along the edge to screed from. You can easily pull it up
and fill in while the plaster is still setting.

For a long time I looked at roads on layouts and dioramas and some
looked so real real and some did not and the differnce was not readily
apparent. I did notice very quickly however , that the perfectly flat
ones just don't look as good , in my opinion.

Look at the asphalt highways very closely. Not only is there a crown ,
but there will also be 'tracks' where the heavier vehicles have run
and made a depression in the asphalt.
I've actually laid a straightedge over these depressions ( model
railroaders are a strange lot) and some have been as deep as 2".
I sometimes model  these depressions  by dragging my finger through
the plaster while it is still wet.

Another thing I love about plaster is that it's so easy make cracks ,
expansion joints and holes in the road. You can force dry it with a
heat gun or hair dryer abd sometimes get some really convincing
cracks.
I have laid a small piece of plastic brick sheet under the plaster and
then make some holes here and there and it looks like those streets
that have been poured over the brick ones.

I've spent quite a bit of time looking at cracks , holes in the road
and what you find lying beside the raod. You will most always find
gravels and smale pieces of asphalt and concrete....even a tennis shoe
, a shovel or pieces of tires that come off big trucks. Sometimes a
groundhog eating things he finds beside the road. Sometimes mailboxes
and no house anywher to be seen.

I do some strange things at times. My wife has finally gotten used to
me constantly looking at rock cliffs , holes in blacktop roads ,
pointing out to her how oddlooking that last crack or pothole was ,
kicking up rocks and gravels and picking up twigs and things
everywhere we walk.
Not sure if she will ever understand when I come running up to her all
excited " Honey , look what I found " and have nothing in my hand but
an odd looking rock or twig. One time I told her to look out the back
window , then the windshield and see the differnce in the color of the
blacktop LOL This is true in some of the southwester states , but , so
much for that.

Here is where I would say you need to get some pics of roads and side
roads , both concrete and asphalt.
Look at them very closely. For years I looked at highways but never
really paid attention to what colors are there. I think if you look
very closely you'll see colors and shades  you never noticed before.
Just do your own thing now and if you mess up you can always go over
it again.

On concrete I start with a wash of about 65 % percent and 35% light
grey. Again , look at some pictures. You will find all the above
colors and even some shades of yellow.
As far as coloring and lines there are many ways to do it and this
really where the rubber meets the road (pun intended)

The only black highway I have ever seen is when the asphalt is being
poured and a few hours thereafter , after that it's always varying
shades of grey and in some cases almost white in spots.
There are some really good articles out there in the magazines and
books that go into great detail on the coloring and I would highly
recommend  Dave Frary's " How to build realistic Scenery". A great
book and worth every cent IMO.

Not trying to act like an expert here for I'm certainly not. This is
what works for me.
For asphalt , I start with a light grey thinned very little because I
want to seal the plaster a little so it won't absord the colors that
follow.
The color of light grey primer works very well and I have used the
cheap aerosol cans. Just need to mask everything close by.

I imagine many of you have got bored before you reach this part , but
just in case you didn't I'll continue.
At this point an airbrush is invaluable. I always use an airbrush now
and have for more years than I like to think about ,but I have done it
with a small paint brush. If you don't have an airbrush here is where
chalks really come in handy. Light grey , dark grey , black , which
will be used very little and a couple shades of light tan. Also need
some white to help tone down those places where you ended up a little
too dark. All these colors come in the sets you can buy at craft
stores , Wal Mart and other dept stores.  

For the lines I make a mask of light card stock. I use a straight edge
and cut a couple slots in it approx 1/32 " for HO and spaced the same.
This will be approx a scale 3" with 3" separation .This is close
enough. Here it's better to be  a little small than large, IMO ,
especially when you take photos. I'usually cut one with breaks in it
and one without.
As for the curves it's usually as easy to actually mask rather than
cut one to match the curves.

Here I use an airbrush and I thin the paint to the point that it's
almost a stain. Again , I'm always looking for a used highway , not a
freshly paved one.....unless you want to model a freshly paved and
painted one.
When I paint the lines I use a little more paint in some areas than in
others . I try to get a varigated look so it won't look newly
painted...again...unless you're modeling a newly painted. :-)
In areas where the center line is crossed often , such as driveways or
intersections I paint a little lighter.

I know some people will say this is way too much trouble to do
highway. As I said before , this is what works for me and the other
methods mentioned here also work.
Many times though , all those little details , some be called
subliminal I suppose , all added together make a scene look so much
better but it's not readily apparent just what the differences are.

I hope I haven't been too boring here and I certainly am not trying to
criticize any of the other methods. Each and every one of us have a
different way of doing things and different priorities.
Mine are in the details.

Ken Day
kt0t - 17 Mar 2006 03:05 GMT
Thank You Ken!
Excellent tutorial -- I needed it.
Signature

73 de KT0T
Bob Schwartz
Modeling Waseca, MN in the '50s

> I always use molding plaster or plaster of paris. Makes a great
> looking street , asphalt or concrete. For asphalt , I just mark where
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> as the real ones have. Very seldom do you ever see a perfectly flat
> and smooth highway. Even a newly poured one would still have a crown.
SNIP lots of great information>
Ken Day - 17 Mar 2006 04:58 GMT
>Thank You Ken!
>Excellent tutorial -- I needed it.

Thank you very much. I'm  glad it could be of help to you.

Ken Day
Wolf Kirchmeir - 17 Mar 2006 16:35 GMT
[..] Very seldom do you ever see a perfectly flat
> and smooth highway. Even a newly poured one would still have a crown.
>[...]

All new roads (even gravelled ones) have a crown is designed to make the
rainwater run off the highway into the ditches. After trucks (and
studded tires) have worn ruts into the asphalt, rainwater accumulating
there can cause nasty aquaplaning.

Good clear description of your methods. A keeper.
Newyorkcentralfan@bigfoot.com - 20 Mar 2006 01:12 GMT
"Look at the asphalt highways very closely. Not only is there a crown,
but there will also be 'tracks' where the heavier vehicles have run and
made a depression in the asphalt.
I've actually laid a straightedge over these depressions ( model
railroaders are a strange lot) and some have been as deep as 2". I
sometimes model  these depressions  by dragging my finger through the
plaster while it is still wet. "

I've seen areas of heavy truck traffic where the ruts in asphalt have
been 6-8" deep.

If you have a cement or gravel plant you can have these where they turn
off the road. Hitting these are almost as much fun as hitting a deer.

"The only black highway I have ever seen is when the asphalt is being
poured and a few hours thereafter , after that it's always varying
shades of grey and in some cases almost white in spots."

I'm wondering if the blushing dullcote with alcohol technique wouldn't
be good for this?
 

Eric
Marshall D Abrams - 18 Mar 2006 19:06 GMT
I experimented with several materials for paving over track in the
street. The three finalists were Durham Water Putty, Smooth-It and
Hydrocal. I thought Durham the best and have not been disappointed.
There are some pictures at
http://home.comcast.net/~Abrams_railroad/Street_trackage.html.

Plain molding plaster makes pretty good asphalt when colored with
Rainbow dry color Lime Proof Black. A good realistic approach is to
pave with a washed-ou grey and then apply a patch made using more
color in the plaster.

While not very good for trackage, I also use DAP Asphalt Filler and
Sealant in a calking gun for asphalt streets.

>I have a small group of industrial buildings in a switching layout. We
>must construct  a road and parking lots to make the setup functional.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Thanks.
 
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