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Model Forum / General / Railroads / October 2006Sound Survey
Ok, I admit it right off - I'm an old analog DC block control curmudgeon. Over the last few years I have acquired a couple Broadway Limited models of long desired steam prototypes, and I admit to being impressed with the DC analog mode sound and I am guilty of showing it off to visitors. I am in a couple operating groups, and at the op sessions on the DCC layouts, I find the sound is always either turned way down or turned off completely. With both hands full of a timetable, waybills, a controller, and a coupler pick, I find turning on bells and blowing whistles just doesn't make it to my priority list, and too much chuffing just makes it harder to hear the dispatcher on the radio. In spite of this a friend recently loaned me a Digitrax Super Chief set so I could render an opinion on his new sound equipped articulated. It's been fun to run it and play with the sounds, but I find the novelty wears off, and wears off much more quickly when I run two sound equipped locos at the same time. With that intro, I'm curious. Those of you who have DCC equipped layouts and sound equipped units: a) how many run the sound all the time? 2) how many just run sound for visitors? c) how many run the sound when you run trains solo? 4) how many run the sound during op sessions? (Yes, I'm hooked on Car Talk.) Thanks in advance, Geezer etc etc > With that intro, I'm curious. Those of you who have DCC equipped layouts > and sound equipped units: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > (Yes, I'm hooked on Car Talk.) > Thanks in advance, Geezer You left off a few very important ones : How many turn their volumes down to a level you would expect to hear from the prototype, at the distances we have in our various scales? And: How many turn the sound down as their number of sound equipped locos increase? If you include these two, put me down for all the time and yes to my two additions. Steve Magee Newcastle NSW Aust > I find > the sound is always either turned way down or turned off completely. With > both hands full of a timetable, waybills, a controller, and a coupler pick, > I find turning on bells and blowing whistles just doesn't make it to my > priority list, and too much chuffing just makes it harder to hear the > dispatcher on the radio. I understand from hearing from others that more than 1 or 2 sound equipped locos in an area can be annoying. > With that intro, I'm curious. Those of you who have DCC equipped layouts > and sound equipped units: > a) how many run the sound all the time? > 2) how many just run sound for visitors? > c) how many run the sound when you run trains solo? > 4) how many run the sound during op sessions? I currently don't have any sound equipped units to speak of, and I think cost is a factor, a engine equipped with sound is $ 60 to $100 more than the same unit without sound, and a sound decoder is more expensive than a regular decoder, look at the sound decoder in the latest issue of PMR (PMR = Popular Model Railroader) and note the price of $ 99.95, that's about 3 times the price of a standard DCC decoder. Alan No matter what the magazine's try to tell you, every sound system I have heard sucks. How on earth can you get a full range if sounds from a one inch speaker? Impossible! Nobody will convince me that a 1 inch speaker gives the same sound as the combination 12 inch speaker (s) and a large sub-woofer does. People who have sound equipped locos will now write and say how wrong I am. I guess they're satisfied with tinny sound, not me. -- Cheers Roger T. Home of the Great Eastern Railway http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/ n article <7bb7863759f2ecc733ead98e3ec0b0c7@grapevine.islandnet.com>, > No matter what the magazine's try to tell you, every sound system I have > heard sucks. > > How on earth can you get a full range if sounds from a one inch speaker? You don't BUT, it's good enough for many. I personally am not impressed with much of the diesel sound. I like the rest, brake squeal, horn, bell, air ... > Impossible! > > Nobody will convince me that a 1 inch speaker gives the same sound as the > combination 12 inch speaker (s) and a large sub-woofer does. DUH!! > People who have sound equipped locos will now write and say how wrong I am. > I guess they're satisfied with tinny sound, not me. It gets tinny as you up the volume ... so don't do that *8^) Paul > How on earth can you get a full range if sounds from a one inch speaker? You can't... > Nobody will convince me that a 1 inch speaker gives the same sound as the > combination 12 inch speaker (s) and a large sub-woofer does. > > People who have sound equipped locos will now write and say how wrong I am. > I guess they're satisfied with tinny sound, not me. I'd prefer a sound equipped layout over a sound equipped loco, and with the advent of location capabilties in todays DCC systems, I'd rather have several 6" or so speaker systems placed around the layout and have the sound follow the loco. Alan --- __________________________________________________________ / \ | What: Modeling Canadian Pacific in B.C. in the late 50's | | EMail: rag1957 at rogers dot com | | Web Gallery:http://www.pbase.com/cprfan | \__________________________________________________________/ >> How on earth can you get a full range if sounds from a one inch speaker? > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > | Web Gallery:http://www.pbase.com/cprfan | > \__________________________________________________________/ Just to confirm Roger T: physics says you are not getting any bass frequencies (below about 300HZ from a 1" speaker, regardless of the baffle: you just can't push enough air. If once could send the output of a 12 bit or more sound decoder to the 1" (or so) on board speaker and to an external system, you could set the external up as a subwoofer with a low pass only filter set at about 100hz. You could (or should?) even us a mixer to combine the low frequencies from ALL of the running decoders. Frequencies below about 100 Hz or so are omnidirectional (wavelength is a foot or so or longer) so using a single subwoofer placed under the layout would give the whole thing some body. But you would still miss low midrange (100 to 500hz or so) with the 1" speaker. I don't think that would be a serious problem given that one would likely keep the individual loco volumes low except for show-off purposes. The original questioner had a valid series of questions, and my answers are: 0) Yes, adjust everything pretty low: you just want a hint of sound, imhyco A) no 2) always for visitors, but not just then C) yes 4) N/A  SignatureEd Oates http://homepage.mac.com/edoates DCC wiring information is at http://www.wiringfordcc.com On 10/1/06 10:58 AM, in article 7bb7863759f2ecc733ead98e3ec0b0c7@grapevine.islandnet.com, "Roger T." <rogertra@highspeedplus.com> wrote: > No matter what the magazine's try to tell you, every sound system I have > heard sucks. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Home of the Great Eastern Railway > http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/ True. But, the only way to make it sound like the real thing is to have the real thing in you train room 8^). Keep in mind that these are miniatures and no matter how hard you try, it will not ever sound, or feel like the locomotive you are trying to emulate. Even 12" speaker won't do it complete justice. Close, but still not completely the same. Now if you could rig up a vibration system in the floor to go along with a humongous speaker system, and the neighbors won't complain, then you might have something to thrill the mind and quicken the heart. > People who have sound equipped locos will now write and say how wrong I > am. > I guess they're satisfied with tinny sound, not me. What do you do for sound on your layout? "Mark Mathu" >> People who have sound equipped locos will now write and say how wrong I >> am. >> I guess they're satisfied with tinny sound, not me. > > What do you do for sound on your layout? I don't have sound and won't, until it sounds realistic. No matter what people say, sound systems in model locos sound too tinny and unrealistic and are, in my opinion, not worth the expense. -- Cheers Roger T. Home of the Great Eastern Railway http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/ > "Mark Mathu" > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > people say, sound systems in model locos sound too tinny and unrealistic and > are, in my opinion, not worth the expense. Not sure what scale you're talking about, but the whistle, bell and chuff on my roommate's O-scale Lionel 2-8-2 Mikados (6-18079 and 6-18080 from Lionel's 1999 Heritage Catalog) are, from a distance of 30 feet or so, indistinguishable from the real thing. > Not sure what scale you're talking about, but the whistle, bell > and chuff on my roommate's O-scale Lionel 2-8-2 Mikados > (6-18079 and 6-18080 from Lionel's 1999 Heritage Catalog) > are, from a distance of 30 feet or so, indistinguishable from the > real thing. The tender on an O scale loco is large enough to hold a large size speaker which can and does sound much better than one of those tiny one inchers you find in an HO engine. One inch speakers don't whistle, they tweet.... Alan --- _______________________________________________ / \ | What: Modeling Canadian Pacific in B.C. in the late 50's | | EMail: rag1957 at rogers dot com | | Web Gallery:http://www.pbase.com/cprfan | \_______________________________________________/ >> What do you do for sound on your layout? > (snip) > I don't have sound and won't, until it sounds realistic. Cheers - Roger > T. Just curious - are you also foregoing trees, spikes, water, rail joints, couplers, etc. etc. on your layout until they also are realistic?? :-) Geezer > >> What do you do for sound on your layout? > > (snip) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > couplers, etc. etc. on your layout until they also are realistic?? :-) > Geezer Reasonable approximations of trees, spikes, rail joints, and couplers already exist. They are essentially static objects, so only a representation of the physical form is necessary, and that form does not change moment to moment. However, water doesn't scale for the same reason sound doesn't... the characteristics and dynamic behavior of the molecules involved cannot be scaled. The form to be modeled changes many times a second in both cases. Unless and until there is a quantum breakthrough in speaker technology, sound from the small speakers possible in smaller scales _cannot_ produce an accurate frequency spectrum for trains. It's a simple physical impossibility. Ask any audio engineer about reproducing low frequency sound with a speaker the size of a quarter... or a dime. They'll laugh at you. Physics Does Not Scale. SignatureEvaluating all GUIs by the example of Windows is like evaluating all cars by the example of Yugos. > Physics Does Not Scale. So you can't move your trains? "Mark Mathu" <mark@mathu.com> wrote in news:%6Z%g.36522$cc3.30783 @tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com: >> Physics Does Not Scale. > > So you can't move your trains? All that means is it's a lot easier to go locomotive tipping (it's easy, just go up to it and push) on a model railroad than it is a real railroad! ;-) Puckdropper SignatureWise is the man who attempts to answer his question before asking it. To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm >>> Physics Does Not Scale. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > just go up to it and push) on a model railroad than it is a real > railroad! We've all needed to use the "five-fingered locomotive" (0-5-0) to move cars once in a while! "Mark Mathu" >> Physics Does Not Scale. > > So you can't move your trains? Some people just try to be obtuse. He's right, physics does not scale, as in friction and mass, both of which are to do with physics. -- Cheers Roger T. Home of the Great Eastern Railway http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/ > > Physics Does Not Scale. > > So you can't move your trains? Of course I can, ninny. But they move according to the physics of the 1:1 world. SignatureEvaluating all GUIs by the example of Windows is like evaluating all cars by the example of Yugos. So, you're saying the sound of a whiny little electric motor on a 4-8-4 and with silent whistles and bells at grade crossings etc. is more realistic and preferable to current sound systems? Not to my ears! Ken > "Mark Mathu" > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Home of the Great Eastern Railway > http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/ I have a wooden train whistle, make chuffing sounds, use two ice cubes in a glass for coupler clank and stomp on the cats tail for wheel squeal. The only problem is the cat runs off right after activating the squeal sound feature. Sound is kind of fun. Right now I have one locomotive with a sound decoder and enjoy it. More than engine sounds and other noise features I like the idea of using the bell and horn or whistle appropriately. Bruce >> People who have sound equipped locos will now write and say how wrong I >> am. >> I guess they're satisfied with tinny sound, not me. > > What do you do for sound on your layout? > I have a wooden train whistle, make chuffing sounds, use two ice cubes in a > glass for coupler clank and stomp on the cats tail for wheel squeal. The [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> >> What do you do for sound on your layout? The main problem I have with sound (other than lack of fidelity due to 1" or less speaker sizes), is that if you have more than one sound equipped loco running at a time, you get cacophony: chuffing, churning diesels, etc. all over the place. Unless you are in a real "yard," one rarely hears more than one loco at equal volume. Train rooms in the home are generally smallish, so the loco's ore more or less equidistant and are all about the same volume. If I am running more than one sound loco, I turn the loco motor and other continuous sounds OFF, and use the whistles, horns, bells, and maybe coupler sounds as needed. Except for young visitors who really, really like the chuff sounds of steam loco's, such reduction of the overall continuous noise satisfies my need for minor additional realism and fun. (everyone likes to blow the whistle!) SignatureEd Oates http://homepage.mac.com/edoates DCC wiring information is at http://www.wiringfordcc.com > If I am running more than one sound loco, I turn the loco motor and other > continuous sounds OFF, and use the whistles, horns, bells, and maybe [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > satisfies my need for minor additional realism and fun. (everyone likes to > blow the whistle!) I don't have sound on my layout, but had the chance to operate on a fellow modeler's walkaround layout last Saturday, where he had several locos with sound. (We had about a dozen operators running about 30 staged trains or so on a fast clock). Several trains operated with sound, including me having a couple of GE thingamobobbies (don't ask which... I'm a 60's modeler and they sure weren't U-boats) on the head of one of my trains. I encountered several other sound trains during the session, and the experience was pleasurable. The owner kept the sound volume down to where it didn't overpower the layout -- you certainly couldn't hear other locos when they were on the far end of the layout. No doubt the sound was "tinny" compared to the prototype, as Roger is apt to say. But guess what? The momentum effects of switching cars weren't the same as the prototype, and the 3:1 fast clock wasn't the same as real time, and when I had to follow a sulfur train through the division yard it didn't smell like the prototype, and the RSD-15s I passed (yeah... I know *those* engines) didn't smoke like the prototype, and the dispatchers orders coming through the headset weren't entirely up to prototype standards, and the unpainted loco on the branch line didn't look very prototypical, and the bare plywood at the paper mill wasn't convincing, and we used car cards instead of full prototypical paperwork.... But the sound was an enjoyable addition to the overall effect, and it _was_ nice to hear the growl of another set of engines as you passed them at a siding. And it was intriguing to hear the quiet rumble of a train in the distance as you headed around the curve at the end of a scenery divider... indicating that you were going to encounter _something_, but known only to the other train operator, the dispatcher, and God. (Oh, sometimes that last two entities can get interchanged during an operating session!!!) And you're right... I blew the whistle more than was necessary. Especially when I first took control of the sound equipped consist. __________ Mark Mathu The Green Bay Route: http://www.greenbayroute.com/ "I started out with nothing and I still have most of it." "Mark Mathu" > No doubt the sound was "tinny" compared to the prototype, as Roger is apt > to say. I am? Oh yes, I am! It does sound like a 1960s transistor radio. However, that doesn't mean you shouldn't use sound if you like it. It's like smoke units, Lionel Tinplate, roundy-go-roundy, Thomas, mixing eras, etc., etc. If it makes you happy, each to his own as in all things. -- Cheers Roger T. Home of the Great Eastern Railway http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/ (snipped) > How on earth can you get a full range if sounds from a one inch speaker? > Nobody will convince me that a 1 inch speaker gives the same sound as the > combination 12 inch speaker (s) and a large sub-woofer does. Back in the 50's, I remember an article in Popular Mechanics or Popular Electronics about building a speaker assembly using 4 small 4" speakers. The author claimed that if the 4 speakers had similar characteristics and were properly phased, the group would perform like a much larger speaker. I remember walking home from elementary school down the alleys to collect junked 5-tube superhets from which I could scrounge 4 speakers. I did finally build one, and thought it really sounded great, but I suppose a lot of that was youthful imagination after all the effort to build it. But I digress. Does a tender with 2 1" speakers produce measurably better bass than one with a single speaker? Should the designers be placing speakers over the truck bolsters too so they can squeeze 4 or 5 into a tender? Geezer > (snipped) >> How on earth can you get a full range if sounds from a one inch speaker? [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > over the truck bolsters too so they can squeeze 4 or 5 into a tender? > Geezer Actually, a 12" speaker is a bass speaker (subwoofer) component if properly baffled. I have a 10" Sunfire sub for my computer sound which goes as low as 20Hz and with really low stuff can be downright scary... A full range speaker system usually has at least two, frequently more drivers of differing sizes: low, mid, hi, super hi, etc. The array of smallish speakers (the PE article referred to a concept called "Sweet 16", an array of 16 4" speaker, and the group of four described was an example project) was commercially built by Bose in the 901: 9 4" full range speakers. It has the approximate surface area of a 13" speakers, and with proper equalization has a -3dB point of 29 Hz. It had its own problems with being a proper hifi speaker (rushing are by the bass ports, vague directionality, etc.). Just to give you an idea of an approximation of the air moving ability (not even counting excursion distances or amplifier power needed): A 12" speaker if considered a flat surface (like a piston, but it has more area than that) is about 450 sq in. (pi * r**2); a 4: speaker is about 50 sq in, so it takes about 9 of them to move the same amount of air as a 12" speaker, assuming equal excursions. It takes about 450 1" speakers to do the same and they cannot equal the excursion distances. That's one reason why I like using any sound equipped locos I have for just bell and whistle and to turn the chug-chug (or whrrrrrr) off. SignatureEd Oates http://homepage.mac.com/edoates DCC wiring information is at http://www.wiringfordcc.com >> (snipped) >>> How on earth can you get a full range if sounds from a one inch speaker? [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] >That's one reason why I like using any sound equipped locos I have for just >bell and whistle and to turn the chug-chug (or whrrrrrr) off. What about the discussion in October MR? Steam engines don't sound too bad but the Diesel sound has the problem of a high amount of bass which is reproduced poorly by small speakers that fit in HO equipment. The solution of directing the bass component to under layout woofers was under discussion. Since the bass is less directional than higher frequencies some people have used this successfully. According to the article Soundtraxx is working on a commercial application of this. The bass component of diesels was brought home to me several years ago while standing on the platform in Swift Current Saskatchewan at 2 AM and -30 F waiting for the E/B Canadian. Three SD40-2s were trying to get 80+ loads of grain moving. It felt like someone was beating my chest with a carpet beater. A little too much for the layout room perhaps. > The bass component of diesels was brought home to me several years ago > while standing on the platform in Swift Current Saskatchewan at 2 AM > and -30 F waiting for the E/B Canadian. Three SD40-2s were trying to > get 80+ loads of grain moving. It felt like someone was beating my > chest with a carpet beater. A little too much for the layout room > perhaps. That's a sight you never forget, here in Ontario I watched on as 4 SD40-2's picked up a cut of about 30 or so covered hoppers and tried to lift a train that was about at max. for the units, never forget not only the sight, but the feel as well as the ground was just a shaking.... Alan The LC (100 LC steam or diesel) group of Soundtraxx decoders can be had for around $36-$40! > The LC (100 LC steam or diesel) group of Soundtraxx decoders can be had for > around $36-$40! To some people, that still would be too expensive when they can get a standard decoder for $ 20 or less... Alan --- __________________________________________________________ / \ | What: Modeling Canadian Pacific in B.C. in the late 50's | | EMail: rag1957 at rogers dot com | | Web Gallery:http://www.pbase.com/cprfan | \__________________________________________________________/ On 9/30/06 8:31 PM, in article RNudnWh34KnnkYLYnZ2dnUVZ_q-dnZ2d@adelphia.com, "Geezer" <gquNOSPAMale@adelphia.net> wrote: > Ok, I admit it right off - I'm an old analog DC block control curmudgeon. > Over the last few years I have acquired a couple Broadway Limited models of [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > (Yes, I'm hooked on Car Talk.) > Thanks in advance, Geezer A) Yes 2) N/A because of A) C) Yes D) Yes Correcting the volume to resemble the prototype at distance helps a great deal. Having the volume at full tilt all the time would be very annoying. > Ok, I admit it right off - I'm an old analog DC block control curmudgeon. > Over the last few years I have acquired a couple Broadway Limited models of [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > (Yes, I'm hooked on Car Talk.) > Thanks in advance, Geezer As others have noted, you forgot one: 0) Adjust the sound to a reasonable level. My answers: 0) Absolutely! a) No 2) No c) Sometimes 4) n/a Stevert >> With that intro, I'm curious. Those of you who have DCC equipped layouts >> and sound equipped units: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > 0) Adjust the sound to a reasonable level. YES > a) how many run the sound all the time? NO > 2) how many just run sound for visitors? YES - primary use of sound is for shows. > c) how many run the sound when you run trains solo? Rarely. Just to verify the sound is set the way I want it. When checking out a new sound equipped loco. BUT, normally not. > 4) how many run the sound during op sessions? I run them muted most of the time. I will turn on sound and use the horn to get the attention of various members who may have fallen asleep or have just forgotten to throw a switch or some such thing. Then it's immediately muted. Paul |
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